ICASA Councillor Interviews Day 3

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Communications and Digital Technologies

27 February 2020
Chairperson: Mr B Maneli (ANC)
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Meeting Summary

The interview sub-committee of the Portfolio Committee on Communications met to interview six of the shortlisted candidates for the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa (ICASA) council vacancies. Each of the candidates was given ten minutes to introduce themselves and present on a topic. Thereafter, each sub-committee member was given five minutes to ask the candidate questions.

The Committee could not begin deliberations on the candidates as it received a medical certificate from one of the shortlisted candidates who has not yet been interviewed. The candidate proposed an interview over Skype. It was agreed that once the Committee receives a legal opinion the next day, it will decide on the way forward.

Meeting report

Note: Refer to presentation slides and audio for each candidate’s responses to questions.

Interview 14: Ms Nompucuko Nontombana
The Chairperson welcomed the candidate, explained the interview process and introduced Committee members. The candidate introduced herself and made a presentation to the Committee.

Ms N Khubeka (ANC) thanked Ms Nontombana for her presentation. She asked for the difference between the Film and Publication Board (FPB) and ICASA. She noted that some Department entities have been identified for convergence. She asked the candidate if it is advisable that they remain as they are?

Ms P Van Damme (DA) remarked that the candidate is knowledgeable on competition and market analysis, and would like to assess her knowledge of the broadcasting sector. She asked if the candidate thinks the elections broadcast regulations should base coverage equitably or ranked according to electoral support or be determined by newsworthiness. Did she think the SABC board should be appointed by Parliament or by the Minister of Communications, and why did she think so?

Ms P Faku (ANC) asked the candidate why she is applying for the position and what makes her the best candidate? In her previous work and interactions with ICASA councillors, have there been any successful investigations? The sector does not have much transformation, what would she do differently?

Ms Z Majozi (IFP) mentioned that the regulation and governance of the Information and Communications Technology (ICT) sector is currently spread into different entities, including the Ministry. If she become a council member, how did she think one can best deal with coordination and duplication of roles within the ICT sector. What is the role of the Complaints and Compliance Committee (CCC)?

Mr L Molala (ANC) asked the candidate if the Data Services Market Inquiry was done jointly by the Competition Commission with ICASA or if they proceeded with separate inquiries with consultations at a later stage. Was there coordination between ICASA and the Competition Commission? After the inquiry, what were the areas she and ICASA did not agree on?

The Chairperson asked if she were on the ICASA council, does she think the roaming agreement mentioned in the Inquiry needs regulation or should it be left to the market? In her past investigations and enquiries into the broadcasting sector, has she come across the issue of the dominance of MultiChoice? Why does she think it has persisted for so long?

He thanked the candidate and gave her an opportunity to give closing remarks.

Interview 15: Ms Dikeledi Mushi
The Chairperson welcomed the candidate, explained the interview process and introduced Committee members. The candidate introduced herself and made a presentation to the Committee.

Ms Majozi thanked the candidate for her informative and concise presentation. She asked how ICASA should strengthen its role in ensuring fair practice prevails over unfair competition in the market. If the spectrum is released, what makes her think data costs will be reduced? How does she factor in the role of large and small market players in the spectrum?

Ms Faku remarked that she is confused about the role of the regulator mentioned in the presentation. She asked the candidate to clarify the role of regulators. She asked what the underlying issues mentioned in the presentation are, and to give an example of them. What does she mean by "the political influence"? What does she think are the objectives of the National Integrated ICT Policy White Paper? If she become a Council member, what is she bringing that is new?

Dr M Ndlozi (EFF) noted a Wits Uinversity research paper on ICASA in the candidate’s CV. He said that the notion of having many actors in the market leads to a reduction of prices is a misleading policy position. The evidence is in countries like the US, where there are multiple players in the communication sector, however, the prices are much higher than in the UK. What does she think is at play in such a dynamic? Why would the prices drop in South Africa if it has not dropped in the US for the past four or five years? If you are in ICASA and discover that having more players does not help reduce prices, what would be her policy intervention?

Ms Kubheka was impressed by the presentation. The budget is still a challenge for ICASA. Does she think that indeed the budget is not enough? What does she suggest needs to be done to reduce the budget constraints? If she was appointed tomorrow, what could she do in 60 days to address something that is lacking in this industry?

Mr Molala mentioned balancing public interest and profit-making in the industry. The Department has allowed a monopoly in the industry. How do we serve public interests without compromising business interests? What are her views on the expertise challenge within ICASA and not in the Competition Commission? There is an outcry that over-the-top (OTT) services such as WhatsApp are operating across the country without regulation. Does she have a strategy to deal with these networks and how they have replaced in some sense the role of the state?

The Chairperson asked for the candidate's view on the spectrum timelines. Are they practically achievable? If we are not achieving them, why does she think that is the case?

He thanked the candidate and gave her an opportunity to give closing remarks.

Interview 16: Mr Linden Petzer
The Chairperson welcomed the candidate, explained the interview process and introduced Committee members. The candidate introduced himself and made a presentation to the Committee.

Ms Kubheka thanked the candidate for his presentation. One of the key objectives of the policy on high demand spectrum is to promote and facilitate entry by new players into the market. Does he believe the Information Memorandum published by ICASA does this? If he believes it does, how does it do so? If he believes it does not, why? Does he think it is advisable to converge the entities such as the Film and Board Publication (FBP) merging into ICASA, or should they be left just as they are? Is convergence advisable with Section 192 of the Constitution requiring an independent broadcast regulator?

Ms Van Damme remarked on the candidate’s response that ICASA should not be merged with FBP and the ZADNA. Does he think there would be constitutional implications if they were merged? If so, what would they be? Does he believe that there should be online regulation or should there just be freedom of speech? She asked the candidate, based on his response, if he agrees that there should not be any online regulation by the Department of Communications? What are some of the practical regulations he would argue for?

Ms Faku asked for the candidate’s opinion on the National Integrated ICT Policy White Paper proposal for policy to remain with the Department and licensing to remain with ICASA. Does he think South Africa is ready to release the spectrum on the proposed date? How long will it take us to do so? Please school me on the spectrum price methodology. The government invested a lot in the set-top boxes? What is his advice about the use of the set-top boxes? If he were given the opportunity to be an ICASA councillor, what would he do differently on the issue of market dominance?

Dr Ndlozi highlighted the candidate's statement on the ICT sector being dominated by white males and asked why he thinks he should be appointed to ICASA given that he is white and male. What was he doing at the SABC when he started? Given his age and the time he worked at the SABC, Dr Ndlozi wanted him to address the issue of complicity with the apartheid regime. ICASA plays a Chapter 9 Institution role in protecting this democracy. How can he convince us that he will protect this democracy in his role as a councillor? What was his view on encryption when he advised Muthambi on Digital Terrestrial Television (DTT)? The internet is the future of online broadcasting. In his view, what should be the framework for regulating online broadcasting? What should be the punishment implications for online broadcasters who contravene the framework?

Mr Molala asked the candidate to elaborate on protecting consumer interest which was mentioned in his presentation. Given his 40 year experience in this industry, how many black people can he claim to have empowered? What has he done to ensure the dominance of white males in the industry is changed?

The Chairperson asked if it is the candidate’s view that there is no real space in the market for new players at the service level? He thanked the candidate and gave him an opportunity to give closing remarks.

Interview 17: Mr Edmund Baloyi
The Chairperson welcomed the candidate, explained the interview process and introduced Committee members. The candidate introduced himself and made a presentation to the Committee.

Ms Kubheka mentioned that the candidate raised key challenges on regulatory effectiveness in his presentation. If he were appointed tomorrow, what is his strategy to resolve these challenges?
Does he think the convergence of the Department entities is advisable?

Ms Van Damme asked the candidate to clarify his current occupation and where he was employed in 2016.
She pointed out that he owed SARS R62 000 and asked him to account for this.

Dr Ndlozi raised a point of order. Tax information is personal information, like a bank statement. He thinks it is wrong to discuss a personal statement such as this and asked how Ms Van Damme got hold of the document.

Ms Van Damme explained that it was obtained from court judgements that are accessible to the public.
She asked the candidate if he have had any other judgements against him? She asked about a debt of R14 million to the law firm, Velile Tinto & Associates.

Ms Faku remarked that it is nice to see a young black male in the sector given that the Committee wants transformation. Does he believe there is interference by the Ministry in ICASA? Does he think South Africa is ready to release the spectrum? She noted that the candidate has a legal background and emphasized that ICASA had had a lot of litigation in the past. What does he think ICASA should do differently and what is he going to bring?

Dr Ndlozi mentioned that in 2007 the CFO and CEO had allegedly stolen R1.1 million from the ICASA safe. Did they get investigated or charged? On the issue raised by Ms Kubheka earlier, his response was very diplomatic. What is his view on the Minister withholding funds from ICASA? Be explicit on whether he thinks it is interference or not?  

The problem with re-circulating people in ICASA is that the people do not have new ideas about the future. Leadership is about charting the future. Broadcasting might move to be entirely online. What does he think the regulatory framework would be under those conditions? Currently, with ICASA’s regulatory framework, the punishment is with licensing. What would the punishment implications be for online broadcasting?

The idea in telecoms is that data prices will be driven down by several factors, chiefly increased competition. Dr Ndlozi believes this is a myth as this has not been the case in the US. When South Africa rolls out spectrum and prices do not go down, what intervention should there be to force them down to ensure universal accessibility?

Mr Molala mentioned that his area borders Mozambique and Botswana. Even when he is in South Africa, roaming charges are applied. Roaming is not properly regulated, which also ties into the issue of monitoring service providers across the borders. What proposals does he have to deal with these challenges?

The Chairperson asked the candidate if he thinks the spectrum deadline can be met. When licensing a sector, the Minister looks at revenue. Participants in the auction of spectrum must receive something of value. How does one licence something whose value one does not know?

He thanked the candidate and gave him an opportunity to give closing remarks.

Interview 18: Dr Keabetswe Modimoeng
The Chairperson welcomed the candidate, explained the interview process and introduced Committee members. The candidate introduced himself and made a presentation to the Committee.

Ms Faku asked the candidate what he would do differently if given the chance to return to the ICASA council. On stakeholders, does he, as ICASA Acting chairperson, feel there is interference by government in his decision-making? What are his recommendations on this? When it comes to litigation, there is the view that ICASA is not following steps. What can he correct moving forward? What is his view on convergence?

Ms Van Damme asked if the candidate has sought a legal opinion on the proposed merger with FPB and the ZA Domain Name Authority (ZADNA)? What was the biggest challenge in his tenure as ICASA Chairperson and how did he deal with it? Please give us a forecast of where he sees this sector going? What are some of the changes that may come about in five to ten years, and how will ICASA prepare for that?

Dr Ndlozi stated that the decision ICASA has taken on the regulation of spectrum demand will reproduce the current power dynamics with no new entrants. At its core, it is an auction for the highest bidders in the country. No matter which sector, the highest bidders are not black people. ICASA is therefore part of the problem. What is his reaction to that? With the current shift to online broadcasting, should we regulate the internet or not? If so, how?

It is dangerous that there are two things about the future he has not thought about. Historically ICASA has been extremely implicit in the domination by MultiChoice. The regulations that allowed for this are still in place today and so ICASA has been operating at a very slow pace. What is his reaction to that?

MultiChoice is an extremely racist business, like many others in this country. Black-owned production companies earn far less than white-owned production companies. For instance, producers selling content on MNet are being paid more than those who sell on Mzansi Magic. This is attributed to the use of the Living Standard Measure (LSM) groupings. However, there is no product that the white middle class can buy which the black middle class cannot. Therefore, it is not based on a scientific LSM regime but racist assumptions. If he agree with this analysis, should there not have been an obligation for ICASA, as a regulator, to protect black producers and ensure equal compensation for productions?

Mr Molala asked about the monitoring system in ICASA. How does he monitor legislation or what he is supposed to enforce?

The Chairperson asked if there was capacity to meet timelines at ICASA and how similar problems from the past will be avoided.

Ms Kubheka asked how old the candidate is. Based on his experience in ICASA, what does he think is the biggest threat faced by the organisation? On spectrum, how is it that ICASA is still working on the licensing of 5G? If he were reappointed, what would he do differently about the roaming issue and high data costs?

The Chairperson thanked the candidate and gave him an opportunity to give closing remarks.

Interview 19: Mr Peter Zimri
The Chairperson welcomed the candidate, explained the interview process and introduced Committee members. The candidate introduced himself and made a presentation to the Committee.

Ms Faku asked if the candidate were reappointed as a councillor, what would he do differently? Does he feel that there is interference by the government in the work of ICASA? Is ICASA given a platform to make inputs to the Ministry on policy? Are these inputs implemented?

Dr Ndlozi asked the candidate how long he has been an ICASA councillor and what he has achieved in this time? Does he have an achievement that he can give me as an example that is not in process? The biggest failure in ICASA, besides telecoms, has been the dominance in broadcasting. What are his ideas on breaking the domination in the industry? If broadcasting shifts to being entirely online, what would the regulatory framework be under those conditions? Can SABC still be free to air? The DTT has failed, which ICASA had a big role in. Why should the SABC not move to Direct-to-Home (DTH)?

Ms Van Damme remarked that the problem in government is that things move slowly. ICASA needs to be ahead of the curve and propose regulations for the digital revolution. ICASA requires people with innovative thinking which she was not getting from him. She would like to hear him prove her wrong.

Mr Molala referred to a statement in the presentation which says once there is high competition, regulation will not be necessary as there will be self-regulation. However, the presentation has not mentioned the public interest mandate. Please comment on this. What are the current unresolved challenges in ICASA?

Ms Kubheka asked the candidate for his input on the budget constraint challenge faced by ICASA? Does he think ICASA is contributing enough to community education and consumer activism? What are his views on the merging of Department entities?

The Chairperson asked why roaming has been left unregulated for so long as an issue for commercial arrangement? He thanked the candidate and gave him an opportunity to give closing remarks.

Closing remarks
The Chairperson announced that a medical certificate was received from one of the shortlisted candidates. The candidate has suggested doing the interview over Skype. The Committee cannot continue with deliberations on the candidates that have been interviewed until it acquires a legal opinion on the medical certificate. Once the Committee receives the legal opinion tomorrow, then it can proceed with deliberations or other subsequent actions.

The meeting was adjourned.

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