DCoG, DTA & MISA Quarterly Reports; with Deputy Minister

Meeting report

Opening Remarks by the Chairperson

The Chairperson opened the virtual meeting, welcoming Members and the guest delegations. She said that this meeting will aim to address matters arising from the Committee’s oversight visit stating that it is imperative that Members take responsibility on that issues were raised by the traditional leader at the oversight visit. She expressed concern that there were no representatives from the Department of Cooperative Governance and the Department of Traditional Affairs at the visits. There were instances in the oversight visit where there were no Executive Members from the Departments to meet the Portfolio Committee during the oversight visit.  

The Director-General (DG) of the Department of Cooperative Governance (DCoG) responded that she had appointed chief officials to be present at the oversight visit. She asked the Chairperson to provide further details on the visit, as this was the first time she was hearing of the delegates’ failures and absence during the oversight visit.

The Chairperson was not satisfied with the response and asked whether the DG had heard her introduction, as it appears there were audio issues and the DG of Cooperative Governance did not hear the question. The Chairperson requested that a Department executive present in the meeting make an offline call to the DG explaining the issues she raised in her introduction.

The Chairperson then welcomed Deputy Ministers, Mr Parks Tau and Mr Obed Bapela, to the meeting.

The Chairperson extended further welcoming remarks to Municipal Infrastructure Support Agent (MISA) officials and representatives from the Department of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs (CoGTA).

The Chairperson noted that the drafting process of the Annual Reports this year was highly unusual, as the national state of disaster and COVID-19 lockdown period mandated an extension in the tabling of the annual reports. She noted that the Auditor-General of South Africa (AGSA) is in the process of completing its audit reports on the various departments and thus the reports heard today may be subject to change.  

The Money Bill Procedures Act still requires the Committee to proceed with its Budgetary Review And Recommendations Report (BRRR). The Chairperson highlighted that the Committee’s recommendations will be based on the Departments’ quarterly performance information in the last financial year, closing at 25 March 2020.

Although the information is unaudited it is still credible, as the National Treasury has verified the data. Should there be new matters arising the Act allows the Committee to provide an additional supplementary BRRR report. It is a statutory requirement for all departments to provide quarterly reports. She noted that the time constraints were especially onerous due to the COVID pandemic and she thanked the Departments for making their quarterly reports available.

The Chairperson congratulated MISA for producing a clean audit report for the second year in a row. However, she pointed out that while MISA had met most of its performance targets, she was concerned about MISA’s failure to implement the technical support programme. 

The Chairperson further stated that the AG Management Report on MISA raised further concerns. The main concern being that although MISA spent a hundred percent of its total budget, MISA did not meet all its targets.

The Chairperson informed the Committee that three of the four programmes have achieved 100 percent of their targets.  

The question of land was an issue of concern in the Committee meetings with oversight leaders. Although the land matter is currently under review, the Chairperson stated that it is important for Members to engage in dialogue with traditional leaders in this regard to gain a broader perspective and better understanding of the matter as it pertains to traditional affairs.

The Chairperson invited the DG of the Department of Traditional Affairs to brief the Committee.

Ms H Mkhaliphi (EFF) requested that the DG of Cooperative Governance be given an opportunity to respond to the matters arising from the oversight visits.

The Chairperson noted this request and stated that the DG will be given an opportunity to respond to the matters in the latter part of the meeting.

The Chairperson welcomed Deputy Minister (DM) Bapela to offer his contributions to the meeting.

Deputy Minister Bapela greeted Members and noted that the sector is one of the least funded sectors in government. He stated that he experienced unprecedented challenges in meeting with traditional leaders and stakeholders in rural areas due to the pandemic. He explained that he had first had experience with the great digital divide in South Africa, stating that the Department resorted to making physical visits to rural areas, as there were immense technological barriers.  

The DG of the Department of Traditional Affairs stated that he was experiencing audio issues in the initial part of the meeting. The DG apologised in response to the Chairpersons query on the lack of representation from the Department at the oversight visit, apologising that the arrangements the Department had made were inadequate. He explained that he had coordinated with representatives from KZN for the site visit and there were unforeseen circumstances, such as illness and network issues that prevented smooth collaboration. He committed to resolving the issues before the next visit.

Department of Traditional Affairs Performance and Financial Report: 2019/2020 Financial Year

Presentation Overview

The first part of the presentation dealt with performance and the second part of the presentation will speak on financial performance specifically. The fourth quarter information is based on current information and may change after internal auditing.

The Department of Traditional Affairs (DTA) had eight strategic objectives, which were premised on promoting social cohesion within the traditional affairs sector and improving the performance and functionality of traditional leadership structures. The Department also aimed to promote socio-economic participation amongst the Khoisan communities and reduce the number of deaths and injuries from traditional initiation practices.

Department of Traditional Affairs programmes and performance

Administration: The Department aimed to promote sound business management within the Department and achieved this objective by obtaining a clean audit outcome.

Research Policy and Legislation: The Department’s main objective in this regard was to manage traditional affairs information and research agenda. This was achieved through the development of a dispute resolution framework for Traditional Leadership Disputes and research on the issues that hinder socio-economic participation amongst the Khoi-San communities.

Institutional Policy and Support programme: Three provinces were monitored (KZN, Limpopo and EC) on the participation of traditional leadership in the implementation of the Agrarian Revolution and good socio-economic practices were developed in the bioprospecting and forestry sectors.

The DG noted the failure of the Programme of Action (PoA), which was supposed to follow benchmark visits on Traditional Leadership in other countries, which occurred in February, but the summit that was intended to launch the PoA was cancelled and subsequently the target to implement the PoA was not achieved.

National House of Traditional Leaders (NHTL): The NHTL and Socio-Economic Development Programme were reviewed.

The presentation was concluded and the Chairperson invited the Municipal Infrastructure Support Agent’s (MISA) CEO to present on the entity’s strategic performance report.

MISA’s CEO was unable to present, as he was experiencing network connectivity issues and a member of his executive team stepped up to present in his stead.

MISA’s strategic report was presented by Mr Ngobeni.

MISA Performance Presentation Overview

There were four indicators that were not met due to serious challenges including the COVID-19 pandemic. Only 20 out of the 87 municipalities managed to meet the threshold that MISA set. Other indicators that were not achieved included water and sanitation services and the Experiential Learnership Programme, due to budget reprioritisation. Mr Ngobeni highlighted that the main hindrance for MISA’s failure to achieve its goals was a lack of capacity, due to the shortage of human personnel to provide technical support services.

The Chairperson asked to be excused for a few minutes.

Ms D Direko (ANC) acted as Chairperson in her absence and directed the Committee to the Department of Cooperative Governance presentation.

Department of Cooperative Governance Performance and Financial Report: 2019/2020 Financial Year

The DCoG performance presentation was presented by DG, Ms Avril Williamson.

In her introduction, the DG stated that the process of finalising the DCoG Annual Report for the period 2019/20 financial year was delayed due to the COVID-19 Lockdown and the audit reports are still being drafted.

The performance outcomes from the programmes are as follows:

Administration: Following the 2018/2019 post-audit plan the Department intended to improve audit outcomes by 31 March 2020. However, this was not achieved due to material irregularities, as incorrect information and errors in grant transfers that were made to grants being transferred to incorrect recipients.

Regional and Urban Development and Legislative Support (RUDLS): The RUDLS programme was not achieved as three of the five targets were not achieved. However, the DG indicated, significant progress had been made in implementing the intermediate cities support programmes and district profiles.

Institutional Development (ID): The Department achieved all its targets in this programme and there was significant progress.

National Disaster Management Centre (NDMC): The Department successfully achieved all its achievements in this programme by 31 March 2020

Community Work Programme (CWP): The Department failed to facilitate the development of 12 District and (eThekwini Metro) municipal plans, which were aimed at ensuring integrated planning and coordination of CWP site business plans.

Financial Overview

The DG reported that the total expenditure of the Department amounted to R86.950 billion at the end of March 2020. This total amount represents a 96.2% spending rate of the total appropriation. The DG explained that the total expenditure of the Department (excluding the Grants and Departmental Agencies) is R4.432 billion at the end of March 2020. The main reasons for the under-spending of 3.8% against the projections for the 2019/2020 financial year up to the end of March 2020 include delays in filling vacant funded positions and the recording of expenditure incurred by the Non-profit Institutions for the Community Works Programme (CWP), which are still to be finalised and were recorded under the suspense account.

The Acting Chairperson reverted back to Chairperson Muthambi’s initial concern on the Department of Cooperative Governance’ absence from the oversight visit and asked the DG to address the matter.    

The DG of the Department of Cooperative Governance noted this and asked for more information on the matter.

Discussion

Chairperson Muthambi returned and opened the floor for deliberations on the presentations.

Ms P Xaba-Ntshaba (ANC) asked what progress the DTA has made in capacity building. She also raised concerns about leadership succession concerns in the Khoisan communities and asked how the Department intends on resolving disputes. She raised concerns that there are inconsistencies in service delivery in the communities, where the DTA states that they have improved service delivery. She also felt that the anti-corruption training has been fruitless given the present public anti-corruption outcry against the Department.

Ms Xaba-Ntshaba expressed grievance over the lack of service delivery in rural communities when commenting on the Department of Cooperative Governance presentation. She stated that there is a dissonance between the presentation and the realities that are faced in rural areas. She spotlighted the issue of poor service delivery, due to corruption even in light of the Department’s anti-corruption sensitivity workshops.  

Ms Mkhaliphi thanked the Chairperson and stated there has been no clear report on Kingships in South Africa. It would be appreciated if the Department of Traditional Affairs could engage with the Committee to further clarify what they are doing in terms of their mandate. She urged the Committee that the traditional leaders are part of this Committee and it is important to meet the traditional leaders during the site visits.

Ms Mkhaliphi recounted that the President of the National House of Traditional Leadership met with the Committee and raised the issue that he was unhappy with the district model. She explained that traditional leaders expressed concern that they do not have clarity on their role in terms of the district model. She praised the National House for being organised in raising their concerns and urged the Committee to further engage on the issue. The issues are being raised because during the oversight visit the senior Members of the Department were not present.

She reiterated that it is imperative that the Committee investigates why the senior executive members of the Department were absent from the oversight visit. She explained that there was a resolution that was passed at one of their site visits reports. However, there was no implementation due to the absenteeism of Department executives and the fact that the relevant leaders do not understand their roles.

She shared the same sentiments that were raised by Ms P Xaba-Ntshaba, stating that the lack of capacity is a pressing matter that affects MISA’s relevance. She asked for clarity on how MISA collaborates with municipalities. She noted that MISA has enough staff, but it appears that there is a disconnection with municipalities. She noted that the standard of service delivery at eThekwini Municipality is decreasing daily.

Ms Mkhaliphi reiterated that although MISA has attained a clean audit the Auditor-General (AG) stated that there were some concerns. She asked MISA to elaborate on this regard.

Ms Mkhaliphi commended MISA’s DG for his honesty, stating that the Committee was excited about the action plan that was presented before the pandemic. She asked MISA to be consistent in their work. She enquired about what the timeframe for meeting the concerns that were raised.

Ms Mkhaliphi stated that the Committee previously requested for a CWP report and asked MISA to explain what the budget reprioritisation entailed, as this period was before the COVID-19 outbreak.

She explained that the Committee was excited about the Action Plan that was presented in March and lamented that it is unfortunate that this Action Plan was not achieved, which resulted in 20 municipalities not achieving a clean outcome.

Ms Mkhaliphi cautioned that there must be further investigations in the Department of Cooperative Governance irregular payments to incorrect grant recipients and deceased staff members.

Ms Mkhaliphi stated that the Community Works Programme was in crisis and asked that a report be presented accordingly to gain further insight into the matter and resolve the issues. She stressed that this issue has remained unresolved for an excessive period.

She concluded her contributions by asking the DG of the Department of Traditional Affairs to provide clarity on which municipalities met the DORA requirements.  

Mr K Ceza (EFF) stated that municipalities are on the brink of collapse. He asked the Department whether their interventions are a workable solution and asked what the role of the provinces in this regard are, as most local governments are unable to provide basic services.

He asked the DG to explain what informed the write-off of Eskom debt in a municipality that was not audited. He noted that Municipalities owe Eskom more than they pay Eskom.

Pertaining to the Departments endeavours to reduce deaths at cultural initiation practices he asked what cooperative governance mechanisms were available with the Department of Health and asked what interventions were made for initiates’ deaths in the mountains.

Mr Ceza noted the challenges with the digital divide and asked what the proposals have been made to address the issue. What initiatives has MISA taken regarding infrastructure support for municipalities?

He asked the Department of Traditional Affairs what cooperative governance mechanisms were in place to resolve the water allocation issues to municipalities. He also asked what the position of traditional leaders on cultural initiation death is.

Mr Ceza commended the Department of Traditional Affairs for the advancement in including women in traditional leadership roles. He voiced the view that cultural practises which promote discrimination should be banned and the DTA should be the forerunner in the matter.

Mr Ceza asked the Department to consider how they would include women in matters concerning land allocation.

He asked what COVID-19 awareness campaigns the Department had initiated in traditional communities.

Mr Ceza commented on MISA’s annual performance plan, asking what the challenges were in municipalities’ basic services provision. He pointed out that according to the presentation the main reason for poor service delivery was a lack of capacity because of a lack of human capital. He asked the Department what mechanisms were available to ensure that this issue was resolved and that municipalities head skilled staff. He further asked what remedial action MISA had taken for infrastructure support. He stressed that there were three municipalities he was aware of that lacked road infrastructure and asked what MISA was doing to provide cooperative government mechanisms that would resolve the issue.  

Mr Ceza stated that it appeared that it is assumed that municipalities are able to provide for their own infrastructure through their revenue streams and are therefore allocated less funds, which is unfortunate as this causes the poorest municipalities to be allocated the least funds. He asked what the role of the Provinces is in providing support to the municipalities and why the provinces are currently playing an intermediary role and not a more prominent one.

Ms Direko commended MISA for its work on providing technical support for municipalities. She asked which municipalities received this support. He shared the same sentiment as Mr Ceza that municipalities failed in basic service delivery due to a lack of technical support.

She asked the Department of Cooperative Governance to explain why they were unable to meet their own performance targets, stressing that the CWP report is the “elephant in the room” and that it is long overdue.   

She noted that there are disputes among kinship for traditional leadership and government is usually at the centre of the dispute. She asked how one can resolve the dispute without causing division.

Ms Direko stated that she had received reports from traditional leaders that they were not being included in municipal activities and when they consulted the Department, they received the reply that this was a matter that could only be resolved by the provincial MEC. She noted this response and asked what the Department’s mandate is in resolving the issue if the provincial leadership fails to resolve the matter.

Ms Mkhaliphi referred to slide 10, asking for clarity on what the anti-corruption strategy is. She also asked the Department to justify this strategy. She recalled the Committee's oversight meeting in Durban and asked why there was a disconnection between what is presented by the Department in the meeting and the reality of the non-functionality of municipalities.

The Chairperson wished to address the Regional and Urban Development and Legislative Support (RUDLS) and CWP programmes in depth.  

The Chairperson stated that the fact that the Department spent 100% of its budget without meeting its targets must be clarified. She specifically asked for clarification on what the funds for the non-achieved budget targets was allocated to.  

She reiterated that the Committee needed an explanation on why the directors were absent from the oversight visits.

The Chairperson expressed that the CWP matter had been prolonged indefinitely and that Members needed to have a report presented as soon as possible. She asked the Department to refrain from setting arbitrary deadlines they did not intend to meet and explain to the Committee why the report had not been produced.

The Chairperson reiterated that the issue in the absence of Department representatives at the oversight visits was not addressed and asked the Department to explain why there was a lack of representation of Department executives at the oversight visits.

Responding to MISA, the Chairperson stated that she was not satisfied that some of the targets were partially achieved; she stated that the CEO should clarify whether the target was achieved or not achieved specifically. The Chairperson also inquired about the dispute that prevented the target from being attained.  

The Chairperson expressed that she found the oversight visit to be especially frustrating, because she was aware that some of the municipalities raised were intended to be resolved by the Departments programmes. But upon inspection at the oversight visits it appeared that there was no progress made in resolving these issues even though there were budget allocations to resolve service delivery issues.

The Chairperson further explained that the oversight is it revealed that means abilities did not fully understand what the District Development Model was intended to do and asked what remedial action the Department will take to resolve the matter.

The Chairperson responded to the Department of Traditional Affairs, stating that the issue of a lack of norms and standards pertaining to the inclusion of traditional leaders in municipal activities was an issue that was previously raised in the last meeting with the Department. She stated that the Committee had already recommended the Department to employ the use of norms and standards to include traditional leaders and resolve the issue of exclusion in terms of the Act. She asked the Department to set a clear timeframe for when the Committee can expect the relevant norms and standards to be developed.

The Chairperson reminded the Department of an outstanding report and action plan following a historical traditional leadership indaba in 2018 and asked the Department to present a time frame in this regard.  

The Chairperson concluded her contributions by asking the Department to provide clarification on the underspending for employee compensation.

She added that there was a serious issue on Disaster Management underspending and asked the Department of Cooperative Governance to respond on the matter.

Responses

CoGTA

Dispute Resolution

The DG of the DTA responded that the Department was currently in the process of building a knowledge bank of the various traditional leaders and their succession customs in order to be able to engage more fully in leadership disputes without causing division in the communities. The DG informed the Committee that there were reports available on the various succession disputes and the reason that government was at the centre of the disputes is that it was found that a few traditional leaders were found to be in conflict with the law and mediation had to be employed to resolve the matter. He cited that the government had employed mediation in succession and kinship disputes in the Eastern Cape.

The DG emphasised that there are measures in place to build capacity. However, the matter of kinship and succession dispute is a separate matter that is currently being resolved. Furthermore, he noted that communities living under traditional authorities are permitted to change their succession customs as they would prefer Government can best assist by creating opportunities for mediation when disputes arise.

Khoisan Matters  

The DG responded to Ms Xaba-Ntshaba’s query on Khoisan matters, stating there is still a legislative gap in this regard as there is an Act that is currently being drafted that is envisioned to mandate the appointment of a commission of enquiry that will specifically be premised on the recognition of Khoisan traditional leaders on an application basis. He noted the Committee’s concern on the lack of relief in this regard and reiterated that the Commission of Enquiry on Khoisan matters will be able to address these issues once it has been established through the Act.

The DG responded to Ms Mkhaliphi highlighting that the main hindrance to traditional leaders’ participation in municipal events was the digital divide. More specifically, traditional leaders often faced difficulty connecting to virtual meeting platforms or simply could not participate as they did not have the necessary devices. The Department attempted to resolve the issue of participation by going beyond the mandate specified in s81.

The DG acknowledged that there was a lack of participation amongst traditional leaders in municipal activities and stated that the Department could do more to assist traditional leaders in this regard.

The Department has adhered to the Committee’s recommendations on norms and standards by better defining the roles of traditional leaders and their respective structures. He reiterated that the Traditional Leaders and Khoisan Matters Act will repeal some of the existing regulations as the Act will provide a more comprehensive framework in traditional affairs. He explained that the norms standards and regulations cannot be finalised without the Act and the Department expects the Act to provide better guidance and resolve some of the issues regarding Khoisan leadership recognition and dispute resolution.

Women’s Empowerment

The DG responded to Mr Ceza’s query on women empowerment in traditional leadership, explaining that the House of Traditional Leaders has initiated a Queens Forum to support women in traditional leadership roles. The cooperative governance approach was being implemented through the District Development Model. The D programme was poised on needs identification for infrastructure and service delivery.

Cooperative Governance

The DG responded that the cooperation with the Department of Health has yielded much fruit. However, there were often cultural barriers to the implementation of the modern western health approaches. The Department of Traditional Affairs aims to facilitate dialogue in this regard, as traditional leaders are concerned that the modern will dilute the cultural practice.

As there was no national legislation that deals with customary initiations there are legislative gaps that limit how the Department can intervene to provide remedial action to prevent injury and deaths in cultural initiation practices. The Customary Initiation Bill fills some of these legislative gaps by preventing illegal cultural initiation schools.

The DG responded that development in rural areas would relief the rural/urban migration issue, as people would not migrate if there were employment opportunities in rural areas.

The National House of Traditional Leaders collaborated with the solidarity fund to deploy megaphones to aid in raising awareness on the pandemic to people in rural areas. The partnership between the Department and the National House is still ongoing and is premised on alleviating food insecurity.

Following the Indaba, the Department continues to work with the National House of Traditional Leaders to gain further insight on the land matter and the position of traditional leaders in this regard.

Traditional Leaders have taken a stance to tackle harmful cultural practices and the Department intends to produce a programme of action report on the progress made. He added that there is also a report available on the progress made pertaining to the inclusion and support of women in traditional leadership structures.

Members expressed that they were satisfied with the responses from the Department of Traditional Affairs.

The Chairperson invited MISA CEO, Mr Ntandazo Vimba, to make his responses to Members’ questions.

MISA

The CEO invited Members to contact his office so that he would be able to explain he MISA’s projects in more detail.

In response to the service delivery issues, the CEO said that MISA implemented a water project and drilled 45 boreholes over the financial year.

He responded to Ms Mkhaliphi, stating that MISA works closely with DPSA, Department of Water and Sanitation and other stakeholders such as National Treasury. He stated that the municipalities that being supported by MISA are those municipalities that are seen as being dysfunctional and need additional support.

In terms of capacity building, MISA CEO informed the Committee that MISA simply does not have enough resources to achieve all its targets and asked the Committee to support MISA in raising this issue at Parliament.

The CEO reported that MISA needs additional support with attaining additional funding, as there were some serious issues that affected MISA’s financial health.

The MISA CEO informed the Committee that one of MISA’s greatest success stories is the implementation of technical support in Kokstad, stating that the technical support MISA gave improved service delivery to the point that the municipality was able to pay off its outstanding Eskom debt.

Ms Fezeka Nombembe, MISA CFO, assured the Members that the presentation will not be affected by the outcome of the audit report as it is based on MISA’s internal quarterly findings. MISA asked for a more detailed audit report from the AG to ensure that MISA reaches its objectives in the next financial year.

Reprioritisation of funds

Regarding the reprioritisation of funds, she responded that MISA had reviewed its annual performance plan and consequently had to adjust its budget accordingly.

Infrastructure Support  

Mr Samuel Ngobeni, Chief Director: Technical Skills, MISA, responded to Mr Ceza’s question on infrastructure support programmes, stating that MISA clarifying that MISA mainly provides technical support and worked assisted municipalities in securing service providers and implanted other programmes to provide additional support including maintenance plans and infrastructure master planning.

He stated that MISA responded to its capacity building concerns by assisting municipalities to build their own internal capacity.  

Ms Pati Kgomo, DDG: Infrastructure Delivery Management Support, MISA, noted the success of the RMSC Programme and stated that the onus to internalise the support that MISA supports lies with the municipalities. She stated that one of the main challenges MISA faces is the political “buy in” on MISA’s support programmes and asked the Committee to assist in this regard.

Response by the DG of the Department of Cooperative Governance

The DG of the Department of Cooperative Governance committed to ensuring that grant payment errors were rectified and that no future payments are made without the requisite evidence.

The DG responded that the CWP programme review will address some of the concerns that the Members have raised.

The DG informed Members that there was incorrect payment of R 183 million and the Department has had to focus on consequence management and disciplinary processes. She added that the matter has been reported to the HAWKS commercial crimes unit and that the Department has successfully retrieved R 81 million. The Department instigated legal proceedings to retrieve the rest of the funds and the relevant companies have been indicted.

The DG responded to the Chairpersons query on the CWP programme and clarified that although it appears that the Department has an indefinite deadline, this is not the case, as there is a proper project plan which has been implemented and the Department has set milestone objectives in the completion and implementation of the programme.

Mr Themba Fosi, Department of Cooperative Governance, responded to Ms Mkhaliphi’s question on the role of traditional leaders in the DDM. He said that the Department plans to circulate guidelines to inform leaders in this regard. The DDM is predicated on the principles of cooperative governance and is a great tool for collaboration across the sectors. In the last 25 years, it has been a challenge to keep municipalities more accountable.

Mr Fosi agreed that the Department did need to improve uniformity in the implementation of its projects. He stated that some of the projects were not approved by councils timeously and which led to some of the challenges not being met. He stated that it appears that the interventions the Department has implanted are not working, given Members findings from the oversight visit.

The DDG informed the Committee that there is an inter-government committee that is currently addressing the issue of municipal ESKOM debt. The Department has encouraged the usage of smart metres to assist them with their revenue streams.

Mr Manyedi Nkashe, DCOG, responded regarding the question of training. He indicated that the Department trained about 1 400 members on ethics with the aim of reducing corruption. He noted that ethics training may not reduce corruption, but the endeavour aims to reduce corruption through sensitisation and raising awareness. The Department also intends to implement an assessment tool to measure the progress of its objectives.

Mr Plaatjie Mahlobogoane, Senior Manager: Equitable Share, DCOG, explained that S22 of DORA provides for funds which are not spent to revert to the National Revenue Fund in respect of municipalities.

Follow-up Discussion

The Chairperson interrupted Mr Mahlobogoane’s explanation, stating that Members are familiar with the DORA preamble and restated that Members wished to know which municipalities failed to meet DORA’s requirements.

Mr Mahlobogoane responded that there is a list available in this regard.  

The Chairperson responded that knowing that there was a list available was unsatisfactory and asked Mr Mahlobogoane to give Members a specific date when the report will be available.

Mr Mahlobogoane responded that the report was available immediately.

The Chairperson asked Mr Mahlobogoane what assistance the Department was providing to enable them to meet the DORA requirements.

Mr Mahlobogoane responded that there are methodologies that the Department uses to follow up on the projects that are funded under MIG.

The Chairperson said that she noted that there was no support available and lamented that the question was intended to enquire how the Department ensured that budget allocations were met and that the funds reached their destination.

There was no response to this question and the Chairperson asked the DG to respond to the question.  

The DG responded that the two ways in which the Department provides support are mainly through MISA’s technical support programmes and the DMM programme.

The Chairperson interrupted stating that this response was irrelevant to the question, as the money was about the failure of municipalities to meet the DORA requirements and how the Department ensured that these were met. She beckoned the DG to be honest in her response.

The DDG responded stating that there are administrative requirements that needed to be met in terms of DORA. The Department’s duty in supporting the municipalities in this regard is merely an administrative and technical one, which is government by DORA. The support the Department provides is also needs based and varies according to the circumstances in each municipality.

The Chairperson invited the DG of the Department of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs to respond to the CWP matter.

The Director-General responded that the Department had met significant progress in meeting its objectives and setting a timeframe for the implementation of the CWP programme.

The Chairperson interrupted the DG asking her to inform Members when they can be expecting a report as the matter is long overdue. The Chairperson explained that there had been a number of forensic investigations in CWP matter and asked the Department on the outcome of these reports.

The DG conceded that she was unable to provide an exact date on the report as there were other dependencies.

The DG confirmed that she had received the forensic reports and reported that the main findings in the reports were being resolved through disciplinary hearings and some findings have led to dismissals.

Mr Ceza stated that there was non-payment of CWP workers in a few districts and asked whether the forensic report includes information why workers were not paid on time.  

The DG responded that the forensic report does not include the non-payment of workers.

The Chairperson asked what the content of the forensic report was.

The DG responded that the forensic report was pertaining to material irregularities in the last financial audit.

Mr Ceza stated that he is raising the matter because there he suspects that there are officials who are implicated in the non-payment of workers and stated that report should be able to explain why the non-payment irregularities occurred.  

The Chairperson stated that the CWP matter is a great matter of concern to the Committee and asked the DG to take this matter seriously. She stated that the Committee will set a specific date to address the CWP report separately.

The Programme Manager stated that this manager was raised in a previous meeting and explained that there are some details that result in the delay of payments. Some NPO’s were not complying with the work that needed to be done.

The Chairperson stated that there are five forensic investigations on the CWP, and the Committee is concerned, asking on the progress on the amount invested in the programme. The Chairperson stated that the Committee will be failing in its oversight duties if it is unable to conclude the matter. She reiterated that a date will be given in this regard and that it should be given the attention it deserves.

Ms Mkhaliphi shared the Chairperson’s sentiments and expressed that she was not satisfied with the Department’s response on the matter. She stated that this Committee is committed to getting to the root of the issue. She spotlighted that there is a corruption allegation pertaining to the CWP report and if the Department wished to assist the Committee in tackling corruption the Department ought to produce the report. The Committee was not only committed to keeping the Department in hearing its presentations, but also intended to be active by making regular oversight visits. It is important to get to the root of the matter.

Mr Ceza was concerned that the municipalities will collapse given the responses provided in the meeting.

Ms Xaba-Ntshaba stated that this Committee represents the poorest people. She expressed concern at Department’s apathy regarding the challenge’s municipalities are facing, stating that there is public outcry in some municipalities for basic services. She felt that the Department was not taking the Committee seriously.

The Chairperson responded that the Departments ‘laissez faire response will not be tolerated. She highlighted the importance of oversight visits in understanding the issues on the ground.

The Chairperson set the deadline of 27 November to get tangible progress reports on the matters.

The DG responded that the Department takes the Committee’s concerns seriously and committed to 27 November to provide a tangible report on the matter. She clarified that there were no non-payments by the Department, but rather late payments of CWP participants. The only challenges in payments that the Department experienced was with NPOs, which failed to produce evidence.

The Deputy Minister said that he understood the frustrations that Members had regarding the lack of answers. The DM agreed with the Chairperson that if the senior members of the Department had gone to the oversight visits, they would have been able to be better prepared for the meeting. He highlighted that S 139 of the Constitution requires the Departments to produce comprehensive reports. He agreed that the Department will come more prepared for the next visit.

The Chairperson repeated the main matters arising and reiterated that the meeting on the 27 November is aimed to conclude the CWP matter and stated enquire on the implementation of the five forensic reports.  

The meeting was adjourned.