SAPS 2023/24 Annual Performance Plan; with Deputy Minister

Meeting report

SAPS 2023/2024 Budget and Annual Performance Plan

Estimates of National Expenditure 2023:
Background to the 2023 Estimates of National Expenditure (ENE)
- According to National Treasury directives, the ENE contains the 2023/24 amounts to be appropriated for Vote 28: Police: Appropriate the expenditure allocation per programme; Appropriate the expenditure allocation per economic classification.
- The ENE contains, inter alia, a strategic overview, expenditure estimates and expenditure trends, while the APP refers to resource aspects and an overview of the 2023 budget and estimates.
- R13.6 billion additional allocated to SAPS over the MTEF (2023/24, 2024/25 and 2025/26) for: the appointment of police trainees and their subsequent absorption as constables, to improve frontline capacity (R7.8 billion). Additional funding of R5.8 billion over the three-year MTEF period for the carry-through of 2022/23 cost-of-living salary adjustments.

MTEF Funding Analysis - General Remarks
- Personnel is the primary cost driver in the Vote: Police and also drives direct operational expenditures.
- Compensation expenditure (more than 78% of the Vote) is therefore annually determined from zero, considering existing personnel and new personnel where after they are apportioned between programmes.
- Operational expenditures are predominantly goods, services and machinery/equipment to perform services, comprising less than 22% of the total budget in 2023/24.
- Essentially, three budget types exist, namely: Compensation budget, Operational budget and Capital budget.
- Departmental spending over the medium term will concern the core programmes, with Visible Policing more than 51% weight of the total Vote in 2023/24.
- The Detective Service programme, in terms of weight, is also a significant portion of more than 20%.
- The growth rate for the Vote from 2022/23 to 2025/26 is 3.9% (with no real growth if inflation is discounted).
- The average growth rate is affected by substantial budget reductions in the 2021 MTEF, especially on compensation of employees and goods and services.
- However, additional funding allocated over the previous and current MTEF (for recruiting additional personnel) will allow growth in personnel numbers up to the 2025/26 financial year.

Spending Focus 2023/2024 - 2025/2026
The Spending Focus (Goods and Services and Capital Investment), over the medium-term includes:
- Gender-based violence focus and additional emphasis on FCS units
- Sustain Forensic Services baseline allocation previously increased to allow for implementation of the amended DNA bill
- Capacitation of 10111 call centres
- Sustain DPCI baseline allocation as increased in recent times
- Capacitation of existing POPS units, intervention through deployments
- Capacitation of frontline services
- Professionalising the police service through skills development
- Capacitation of functionalities pertaining to cybercrime and specialised multi-disciplinary units
- Capacitation of Crime Intelligence functions
- Investing in capital assets consisting of machinery and equipment essentially transport assets as well as mobile police stations
- Focus on other critical items to equip members for effective policing, such as bullet-resistant vests, uniform, etc.

Introduction to the 2023/2024 Annual Performance Plan
Strategic Plan, Annual Performance Plan and the NPS Departmental Annual Operational Plan:
1. SAPS Strategic Plan 2020 to 2025:
- Provides the impact statement, outcomes, outcome indicators and five-year targets;
- Allows for the measurement of the performance of the organisation over a five-year period;
- Includes mid-term and end-term assessments of outcome indicators.

2. SAPS Annual Performance Plan:
- Provides the outputs, output indicators, estimated performance and medium-term targets;
- Allows for the measurement of the performance of the organisation over a 1-year period;
- Links areas of performance to allocated budget;
- Performance is reflected in the Annual Report and Quarterly Performance Reports.

3. SAPS National Policing Strategy Annual Operational Plan:
- Provides specific Implementation Requirements linked to the APP outputs and government priorities (e.g., the SONA).
- Purpose is, therefore, to implement the APP by focusing actions (implementation requirements) by key business units on achieving outputs in the APP and government priorities.

Programme One - Administration: Budget and Programme Performance Information
Programme-Specific Budget Allocations - Programme One:
Purpose: Develop departmental policy and manage the Department, including providing administrative support

- Corporate Services consist of, inter alia, Human Resource Development (R2.817 billion), Technology Management Services (R3.065 billion), Supply Chain Management (R4.402 billion), of which R1.003 billion is for capital building projects, Human Resource Management (R2.119 billion), Financial Services (R1.209 billion) and Corporate Support (R1.257 billion), etc.
- Capital works redirected to other priorities and programmes during 2022/23 (reduced baseline), resulted in the higher growth rate on Corporate Services sub-programme displayed for 2023/24,

Programme Two - Visible Policing: Budget and Programme Performance Information
Programme-Specific Budget Allocations: Programme Two:
Purpose: Enable police stations to institute and preserve safety and security, provide for specialised interventions and the policing of South Africa’s borders

- Biggest programme in Department (Weight 51.1% in 2023/24) to receive majority of additional new enlistments;
- Once-off non-pensionable allowance paid in 2022/23. It was terminated from 2023/24 (R2.8 billion), which resulted in negative growths year-on-year when comparing 2022/23 and 2023/24, especially on the larger sub-programme of Crime Prevention. Programme two is mostly affected by this process.
- Includes Crime Prevention (R35.5 billion), Rail Police (R1.259 billion), K9 Units (R922 million), Mounted Police (R161 million), Youth, Children and vulnerable people outreach (R42 million), Flying Squad (R1.297billion), Detained Persons (R270 million), etc.
- Border Security, including Ports of Entry (R2.284 billion).
- Specialised Interventions include Special Task Force (R72 million), National Intervention Units (R622 million), Tactical Response Teams (R545 million) and Public Order Policing (R2.993 billion).
- Facilities to provide for municipal services (R1.446 billion), leases (R1.529 billion) and accommodation charges for state-owned facilities (R1.767 billion).

Programme Three - Detective Services: Budget and Programme Performance Information
Programme-Specific Budget Allocations - Programme Three:
Purpose: Enable the investigative work of the SAPS, including providing support to investigators in terms of forensic evidence and the Criminal Record Centre

- Crime Investigations include Crime Detection (R11.545 billion), Vehicle Theft Units (R549 million), Stock Theft Units (R653 million) - Family Violence and Child Protection Units (R1.337 billion);
- Once-off non-pensionable allowance paid in 2022/23; it was terminated from 2023/24 (R2.8 billion), which resulted in negative growths or no growths year-on-year when comparing 2022/23 and 2023/24, especially on larger sub-programmes;
- Crime Investigations to also receive additional capacity emanating from personnel growth;
- Continued focus on Forensic Services, also taking into account the reprioritisation in the previous financial years towards this environment;
- Specialised Investigations: DPCI – The resourcing of the DPCI remains a priority. Effective from 2016/17, the National Treasury has earmarked the budget allocation for this purpose, as specific and exclusive.

Programme Four - Crime Intelligence: Budget and Programme Performance Information
Programme-Specific Budget Allocations - Programme Four:
Purpose: Manage crime intelligence and analyse crime information and provide technical support for investigations and crime prevention operations:

- Compensation payments are usually the largest portion;
- Operational costs are primarily fuel, fleet maintenance, travel and subsistence as generated by personnel;
- Once-off Non-Pensionable allowance paid in 2022/23; it was terminated from 2023/24 (R2.8 billion), which resulted in negative growths or no growths year-on-year when comparing 2022/23 and 2023/24;
- Please note that the Secret Service Account is not part of Vote 28: Police.

Programme Five - Protection & Security Services: Budget & Programme Performance Information
Programme-Specific Budget Allocations - Programme Five:
Purpose: Provide a protection and security service to all identified dignitaries and government interests:

- VIP Protection Services provides for the protection of the President, Deputy President, former presidents, their spouses and other identified dignitaries while in transit;
- Static Protection provides for the protection of other local and foreign dignitaries and the places where all dignitaries, including persons related to the President and the deputy president, are present.
- Compensation is a prominent element for all protection/security functions with significant overtime costs;
- Once-off Non-Pensionable allowance paid in 2022/23; it was terminated from 2023/24 (R2.8 billion), which resulted in negative growths or no growths year-on-year when comparing 2022/23 and 2023/24.

See attached for full presentation

Discussion
The Chairperson thanked SAPS for the presentation and asked if the Deputy Minister wanted to add anything.

Mr Cassel Mathale, Deputy Minister of Police, said he would allow the Committee to engage with the presentation before saying anything.

The Chairperson thanked him and the SAPS team for the presentation and for keeping within the requested time to present. The Committee now had the presentation from the Department, with a budget of R102.13 billion allocated to it. From past experiences, Committee Members usually had a lot of clarity-seeking or general questions. She proposed that the Members stick to three or four questions each. Following that, if there were any other burning issues, they could be raised. She acknowledged the hands that were raised, and allowed Members to speak.

Mr C Smit (DA, Limpopo) apologised for not having his camera on, as he had network issues because of load shedding. He had about three questions. According to Statistics South Africa (StatsSA), provincial population estimates for 2022, the Eastern Cape was 6.67/6.69** million and the Western Cape was 7.21 million**. This translated to a provincial distribution of 11% to the Eastern Cape and 11.9% for the Western Cape. Considering that one of the main factors, which influenced resource allocation to provinces based on population size, why would the 2023 provincial budget allocation for the Eastern Cape be R894 million and the Western Cape R807 million? And why would the 2023/2024 allocated budget for the Eastern Cape be R901 million and the Western Cape R809 million?

On the destruction of infrastructure, with specific reference to metal theft, he asked if the delegation could indicate any legislative restrictions where improvements could be made to capitate it more to act on these crimes and curb this specific issue. It had a massive impact on all South Africans. It affected the electricity supply and cellphone network. There was a cost to replacing that infrastructure.

On the administrative responsibility at police stations with affidavits and certifying documentation, this took away a lot of resources that could have been used on the ground for police visibility, investigation capacity and crime prevention. Is it not possible to digitise a lot of these processes? With the capacity of computer systems, there could be self-help stations at police stations. This would allow an individual to use this and select from a table of choices on what type of crime they were reporting. People could use these to enter their details, scan their identification cards (ID), etc. The station would then print out the necessary documentation, and the officer could then do the actual certification and sign it. A lot of time could be saved using this method. On the certification of documents, police stations were overwhelmed by the number of people that came to certify documents. This sometimes disturbed or limited the station's ability to open cases. This could possibly be separated. He did not have the exact solution to this. He suggested having an office for certifications, so it did not remove manpower from the police.

On digitisation and opening cases, he proposed that people be able to register a case online and actually do the paperwork when an officer is available. That was another approach to ease the process of opening cases or registering cases. On the Mokopane Police Station, it was thankful for the two new recruits allocated to it, which was very necessary. However, it asked if new recruits were coming in.

Mr E Mthethwa (ANC, (KZN) noted that in programme one, SAPS mentioned a new issue with recruits. Does the budget of R13.6 billion cater for all three years? It was given a schedule to recruit in three years. He asked if it would cater for an increase in that budget. It also planned to deal with the issues of pay progression and cost of living. Is this matter covered in their bargaining processes? How do they budget for such things? He knew some of these matters were part of its bargaining element.

On the conditions of police stations that were being prioritised, he noticed that most of the police stations in KZN were not in good condition, and there were very few that were. If all the police stations in KZN are in such terrible conditions, what does that tell the commission? KZN was also classified as one of the high crime areas. He was worried that the anti-gang unit was not budgeted for in KZN, because many elements highlighted anti-gang crimes in KZN. Does that mean that there was no more anti-gang crime in KZN if it was not budgeted for? Those were the issues he wanted answers on.

On the 75 issues raised by the committees, he saw in the statement that it was possible to reclaim out of those 75 issues. Out of those 75, are there any that have been claimed successfully? If so, he would appreciate a clear answer on that.

Ms A Maleka (ANC, Mpumalanga) had three questions. Slide four reflected the spending focus for the medium term. This was noted and appreciated in the various areas that were listed. However, there was no mention of ensuring police stations had sufficient vehicles in working order. What is being done to address this issue, which the Committee raised on several oversight visits? On slide 44, what does the Department envision for these Imbizos in communities? Will the Imbizos also elicit information from the communities themselves on their expectations of the police? What will the Imbizos cover with information dissemination? On slide 59 about the DNA database, the Committee noted that SAPS previously had problems with a backlog of DNA samples. How far along is SAPS in addressing these DNA backlogs and resolving the issue of remaining challenges?

Ms M Bartlett (ANC, Northern Cape) thanked the Chairperson and apologised for not turning on her camera. She had three questions for SAPS. On slide 25, under programme one, what is the number for new police stations? What informed this indicator? On the 10111 reform project on slide 45, can the Committee be given more information on some of the initial steps undertaken to achieve these targets? From slide 50 onwards, on border security, she asked SAPS to give the Committee an indication of the current challenges it encountered with border security and how these challenges were being addressed. She asked for clarity on how the establishment of the border management authority would impact the role of SAPS in border control, moving forward. What stage is this implementation currently at?

Ms M Dlamini (EFF, Mpumalanga) wanted clarity from the Department on what happens to the security of actual police officers? It was read that someone was shot at a mobile police station. How is that possible? What sort of security enforcement is in police facilities, that a criminal could enter a premises where police officers were present and fatally shoot them?

On storage facilities, where cases were stored, she asked what was being done with Ugu, where the Committee did oversight. There was a mess with its storage facility. What is the immediate remedial action for storing files within police stations?

Mr K Motsamai (EFF, Gauteng) thanked the Chairperson. He wanted to ask Gen Matsemola a question. On 12 November 2022, a 55-year-old man was arrested in Mondeor, who was kidnapping. The SAPS anti-kidnapping task team arrested him, and organised K9 and Johannesburg Metropolitan Police Department (JMPD). He was arrested with three unlicensed firearms and seven false identification documents. On the fourth day, he was granted bail. How do you see these corrupt police officers giving criminals bail without fear? What happened to the whistleblowers? He was there and gave the police that case, which a whistleblower gave him. The man was granted R20 000 bail after promising to pay the police R5 million. What happened in that case? It was in Mondeor and was transferred to provincial.

There were police stations that did not have light and closed at 09:00pm. What happened to those police stations? Why could they not install solar panels if they had issues with generators? This would ensure that people could come to the police stations and open their cases freely. There was also a shortage of cars. The cash in transit (CIT) in Orange Farm did not have transport to go and arrest or investigate. When a case was opened and there was a criminal spotted, they would say they did not have cars. He went to Orange Farm and found that they only had one car. Why do they not have cars? This was because there were many cars; some were said not to have clutch plates. What happened with those issues? How did they fix those cars?

Mr T Dodovu (ANC, North West) acknowledged the Deputy Minister and the SAPS team for the presentation. It clearly indicated that there were a lot of challenges. As a country, South Africa faced seriously high levels of crime. A paradigm shift was required. The way things were done needed to be changed so that making an impact and saving lives were done in a practical manner. This would make South Africa a better and safer country. He did not want SAPS to consider its appearance before the Committee as an annual ritual. It had to appear annually and present its APP. It was important for the Committee to hear the impact of the budget and the work of SAPS, whether it made great strides or not. He did not want the engagement to be, in a way, where every year or quarter, the Police Minister appeared before the country and presented the crime statistics. For him, it was not enough. The country was in trouble and needed to see a visible impact. It needed to see clear results and changes in the work of the police and the budget it was allocated. It was possible that R102 billion could not be enough, given the work the police were expected to do. However, this was what it was given. As Parliament, the Members needed to see some results in line with how crime should be addressed as one of the most pressing challenges in the country. He wanted to make that statement before dealing with all the issues he wanted to address.

Some research indicated that police service delivery was a problem in South Africa. Some of the issues highlighted included insufficient physical and ageing resources, extended unproductive meetings being held, and building infrastructure challenges. He wanted to see this budget being focused more on those areas which had a direct impact on service delivery. This included low morale within SAPS and community police relationships, which needed to be improved to enhance its efforts to tackle crime. This was important. He saw these issues were highlighted in the budget. The budget also highlighted the key issues, which affected service delivery. It was important for the police to deliver on its mandate and be successful, especially when dealing with serious crimes affecting the country. It was important for it to address murder, rape and gender-based violence (GBV). It was important. Saying what its budget and focus were and then stating that it did not see all the required results was not enough. South African citizens then saw the police in a negative light. This was not okay.

Mr Dodovu said that he was from the North West. Two years ago, he and his team dealt with interventions in the North West. The police gave them about 95 cases of corruption, fraud, maladministration, stealing and pillaging of public resources. With the presentations they received from the police at the time, including the Hawks, they were confident that important strides would be made in addressing those issues. The provincial government in the North West had collapsed. Those allegations were there, and the police conducted some investigations. Today, it was worrisome that there was no impact. In some cases, they were informed that arrests were imminent, and the matters would be concluded with the prosecuting authorities. Almost all of these cases were stagnant. This did not speak well about the role of the police in the North West. He wanted some responses on that. He also suggested the Committee followed up on these matters, because they were important and the police promised to deal with them effectively. The police had still not dealt with them, which raised questions about what happened to those specific cases.

The gangsterism in the city that he was from was bad. People were being killed, and harassed, amongst other gang-related activities. The people in this area did not see consistent and deliberate efforts from the police to address gangsterism in the area. This was perpetuated by no efforts to curb the violence. The police needed to respond, because the people and the Committee needed answers. It really affected the people on the ground. The perception the people had of the police was not very good, because of this. South Africa could not be a lawless state, run by gangsters, with no proper interventions. The Zama Zamas were ruling. He was not sure how many times the Minister of Police came and visited this area. In the past week, someone was arrested for being in possession of 14 hand grenades. This happened in Mr Dodovu’s township. This demonstrated the extent to which all these things were happening. A well-coordinated and advanced effort was not seen to ensure these issues were dealt with. There were a lot of allegations of the acts of criminality perpetuated by the Zama Zamas in the township. Without a coherent way of dealing with this, it became a very serious problem for the people and needed to be dealt with.

On issues of anti-money laundering and counterterrorism, the strategy in place was not made public in the sense that everybody could see it. Many people did not contribute their input on the strategy, especially the one on counterterrorism. Counterterrorism and its financing in the country were a reality. Anti-money laundering problems were a reality. South Africa was greylisted because of those issues. These needed to be out in the open to be discussed. All the stakeholders needed to play their roles in making proposals on what needed to be done. The police had to lead the charge by establishing and implementing the necessary systems and structures to address these issues. Sitting back and not doing anything would put the country into disrepute. That was why South Africa was currently greylisted. It needed to get out of that greylisting, because it had profound negative implications for the country as a whole, especially from an economic perspective. His view was that there needed to be a platform to deal with these issues, going forward.

The Chairperson thanked Mr Dodovu and welcomed Ms C Visser (DA, North West) back to the meeting.

Ms Visser could not agree more with what Mr Dodovu shared with the Committee. She added that it sat with stock theft cases for the past four years. She submitted these to the SAPS in North West several times and the national structures, but nothing came forward. It sat with upcoming farmers that could not make ends meet, because their livestock was stolen. No thorough investigations were conducted despite there being sufficient evidence. The matters did not make it to the courts. High profile people were working for the Department of Education, who were implicated, and nothing happened to them. About 300 cattle were stolen, most of which came from upcoming farmers and small farmers in the villages. The police needed to be in the area to restore law and order. In that area in the North West, farmers and private security companies did the policing. There was no official policing there. That needed to be restored as soon as possible.

Mr Mthethwa spoke about a television show about drugs and criminal activities. There were scenes where people were arrested and released without even seeing the magistrate. He asked if this was not acting and if the police should take it seriously and ensure that SAPS monitored these things. Serious work was done to ensure people were arrested, but he did not know if this was real or fake. He asked for clarity on that. If it was true, is it getting attention from the Department? Those people were doing a great job.

Mr Motsamai said there was a group of people that called itself ‘Thatha-Zonke’. This past Sunday, a councillor was killed by the gangsters. These gangsters were arrested. There were people who hijacked cars and were arrested. There were several cases where the police were working with these people. Can they not go and see if these people can assist the police?

The Chairperson thanked the Members for their questions. She had two questions before she handed over to the Department and Deputy Minister to respond. She wanted to ask about the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation (DPCI) and what the current status of its investigations into state capture was. She also had the question, because there were capacity constraints within the Department. Is the DPCI able to effectively address the greylisting status of South Africa and increase investigations and arrests related to money laundering and terror financing? She also wanted to know what the challenges were and what was being done to resolve them.

The Department undertook customer satisfaction surveys. This was also reflected on slide 115 of the presentation. What are the key lessons that the Department derived from these surveys? She handed over to the Deputy Minister and SAPS to answer the questions.

Deputy Minister’s Response
Deputy Minister Mathale thanked the Chairperson and the Committee for their questions. The Department did not view its appearance before the Committee as a compliant matter where it had to appear and present its plan and budget. It knew and understood that it accounted to the Committee. It also got to better understand what it needed to do and how it could be done better. The Committee gave it an outside perspective and was not in the thick of things like the Department was. It could perceive itself to be doing a good job when, in fact, it was not. It fully understood what was expected of it and did not perceive its engagement with the Committee in the suggested light. He believed that, as it interacted with the Committee along with its expectations, it would respond with the guidance of the Committee’s requests. If there was a need for it to expand or have a different approach altogether to explaining itself to the Committee, it was willing and ready to respond with the guidance and leadership of the National Council of Provinces (NCOP). It observed issues that the Committee raised on Klerksdorp. Some of the issues were successfully dealt with. As the national commissioner and his team responded, he requested the provincial commissioner elaborate a little on what it did in that part of the country. This was in response to issues that the communities there had raised. These were issues that Mr Dodovu and other Committee Members from those areas had raised. Other Members of Parliament raised issues with him around Klerksdorp, which were dealt with working with GenMokoena*. He was not saying it did not have other challenges in the area, because it did. He was happy Mr Dodovu highlighted that it arrested the suspect in possession of 14 hand grenades. He believed Mr Dodovu meant that the police apprehended this suspect. It had officers that did and that did not do their work. There was a minority of those that did not do their work out of the officers responsible for ensuring a safer environment. The national commissioner and his team would respond to some of the issues that were raised.

Regarding capacity, the Deputy Minister said there was a need to capacitate the SAPS personnel and equipment needed to fight crime. It considered the shortage and addressed the phenomenon. This was led by the President and supported by the Minister of Finance, Mr Enoch Godongwana. On the resources at its disposal, it budgeted to train 5 000 new recruits in the past financial year. That number was increased through the support of the President and the Minister of Finance. It was able to train 10 000, because it was given an additional 5 000. In this financial year, it was going to train 5 000 because of its budget, and there was an intervention for it to train 10 000. This was done in response to the shortfall that was there. This was precipitated by what it did in SAPS in the past year. Police officers retired annually, because people had to retire at the age of 60. Some decisions were taken in the past to try and encourage people to leave the police service. There was a campaign dedicated to cutting down on public service. When officers reached a specific age, they were allowed to take packages, which they did. This had an impact on the number of officers it had. Compared to 2010, it had fewer officers today, despite the population growth. South Africa had over 60 million people; in 2010, it had 52 million people. It had more personnel then than it does now. This put into perspective the type of shortage it had now. Hence, the community needs to play a central role in the fight against crime. Without community involvement, this challenge would be compounded. It was important to strengthen that arm. It worked together with provinces to resolve the challenge around Community Police Forums (CPFs). CPFs had more of a voluntary structure; the people who served were volunteers. It was not a structure that initiated with the view that those who served would be assisted in one way or the other. The Department concluded that it needed to find means to enable them to do their work. Guided by the model used by Gauteng, it discussed allocating resources to CPFs. It wanted to see this happening throughout the country. If the issue of CPFs was resolved, it would be a step in the right direction in the fight against crime. It could not wait until it had the appropriate number of officers to fight crime. It had to fight crime immediately, and communities were central to this. He allowed the national commissioner, his team and the national head of the DPCI to respond to some of the questions raised.

SAPS Response
General Sehlahle Fannie Masemola, National Commissioner of SAPS, thanked the Chairperson and the Committee. On the allocation of the budget, a member of his team would add to this. It decided that the population in the provinces would consider the police population in a specific province. This was because they needed resources in the form of telephones, vehicles, stationery and other assets. This was what was considered in the budget.
 
On the functions of police stations with the certification of documents, most of its police stations had space. The area for certifying documents was demarcated. It acknowledged that it was not a function that was supposed to be done. It was only allowed to be done at a police station, because there were a lot of commissioners of oath. Service providers often referred people back to certify their documents with the police if they did it at a post office. That was the culture it needed to educate the communities on to accept certifications from other quarters. It was a good suggestion. It would look at it from an Information Technology (IT) perspective.

It was a good idea to register cases online and the IT department could look into it. However, it could pose some challenges in certifying or administering documents like affidavits online. It was a good suggestion, and he would look into it. It knew that in some countries, there were self-help police stations.

Regarding budgeting over a three-year medium term, it was given a 10 000 recruitment figure over a three-year medium term as a carry-through. This was for the recruitment of new police officers. On the determined percentages for pay progression and cost of living by the bargaining councils, the bargaining bodies only determined the percentage increase but did not have the budget to pay for this. Each department needed to pay what was agreed upon. The Department of Public Service and Administration would then communicate with the departments on the agreements that were done. It was up to each department to determine where they would get the funds to pay for the increases determined by the bargaining bodies.

On the working order of vehicles, it had a contract with National Treasury on the servicing of vehicles. It looked at the modalities of this contract to see how best it could service its vehicles. It engaged with National Treasury and was in the stage of finalising it within the next two months.

On the focus of the Imbizos, it depended on the area. In some areas, it focused on gangsterism; in others, it focused on GBV and others, stock theft. It was planned accordingly and divided according to provinces on the crime threat. As the year progressed, if there was a new threat, it would have a diversion to that area and engage in some policing activities and engage the communities.

The 10111 project aimed to focus on improving the technology it had. It would increase its personnel. It wanted to obtain more contemporary technology. On the safety of police officers, slide 98 of the second presentation highlighted the specific budget allocations for each province, which amount to R25 million. Those funds were to address the safety of police officers, especially in police stations. It had police stations that did not have gates or fences. The funds would improve security, including the instalments of closed circuit television (CCTV) cameras, etc. It did 45 sites in the previous financial year. It planned to do more in the current financial year. It ensured that it gave its members firearms for self-defence and continuous in-service training to make them operationally prepared.
 
On the 65-year-old man who was arrested, it made arrests and opened a docket with statements. It normally opposed bail, but the decision to grant bail was that of the presiding official – the magistrate. The police and the prosecutor would jointly oppose bail, but in this case, he did not have the details on whether bail was opposed or not.

On the police station, which closed at 09:00pm, he acknowledged that the police station had an issue. Most of the infrastructure, construction and repairs, relied on the Department of Public Works (DPW). Around this time last year, he and the Minister went to the same police station because of the issue it had with lights. The electricity substation it shared with the building next door had a problem. It engaged its supply chain with DPW and made some adjustments. Since last June/July, the station has had continuous 24-hour electricity. There were two functional generators at the police station for when there was load shedding. Its supply chain, together with DPW, was in the process of building a separate substation for the police station alone. It did encounter some issues, but was dealing with them.
 
He was aware that South Africa was greylisted as a country. The Department had an interdepartmental team that attended an assessment by FATF. The team was still in the country, continuously working and implementing a plan to rectify matters. The Protection of Constitutional Democracy against Terrorist and Related Activities (Pocdatara) Bill legislation was amended and passed. They worked as interdepartmental teams together with organised crime from the relevant departments to change the greylisting status.

Lt Gen Puleng Dimpane, Chief Financial Officer, said that she would touch on the questions allocated to her. On allocating the budget to the call centres, the Department considered several aspects over and above the ones mentioned by the national commissioner. It also considered baseline allocations of the preceding financial year, shifting functions and affordability because of inflation per spending category and prioritisation by call centres within existing baselines. It also considered each province's spending proposals for those that could not be accommodated within their baselines. It considered all priorities identified by the accounting officer and executive authority. There were several aspects. It used a specific formula to allocate the funding to call centres.
 
There was an issue with the cost of living. On slide 11, Lt Gen Dimpane indicated that no provision was made. No provisions were made to all departments when they received their allocation letters. However, this agreement has since been signed. As the SAPS, it submitted its calculations to the National Treasury. It believed these allocations would be made for departments during budget adjustments.

On the 75 cases of fruitless expenditure and whether it was recovering, it investigated and determined these cases according to National Treasury framework. It determined who was liable and whether there was any negligence. It finalised those processes and determined which individuals it needed to recover the funds from. The recovery processes were currently underway. It had processes where it recorded and investigated to determine who was responsible. If someone was found liable, they were pursued to recover the funds. There were various categories of fruitless and wasteful expenditure, which also included members pouring the wrong fuel into vehicles and so forth. There was a recovery process in place.

On the R7.8 billion, this was for a period of three years to enable it to enlist 10 000 recruits. Hence, Lt Gen Dimpane indicated there was R1.199 billion, R2.743 billion and R3.893 billion for years one, two and three, respectively.

Dr Godfrey Lebeya, National Head, DPCI, responded to Mr Dodovu that, when it was reported, it referred to 51 cases in that process. The additional cases were referred to the municipalities. At the time of finalising the report, it indicated that there were 14 matters on the court roll. Since then, it added seven matters. These consisted of four municipality matters and three government department matters. The Department would be able to provide the details if necessary. It continued working on these matters with the National Prosecuting Authority (NPA). Some of the matters were being dealt with to decide whether prosecution should take place or if anything else needed to be done.

On the effectiveness of the state capture response, it was not alone. The investigations into criminal activity were assigned to the investigating directorate from the NPA. It was specifically created to deal with these matters. It worked closely with the investigative directorate, allowing it to choose the matters that were reflected in the recommendations in the state capture commission report. It chose the matters it would be dealing with. The Department dealt with matters not chosen by the Investigative Directorate. With matters chosen by the investigative directorate, the Department provided 15 investigators to work with it. These investigators did not account to the Department, but the investigative directorate. It initially assigned them to assist for a period of three years. Since that period ended on 31 August 2023, it has further consulted and extended its assignments by another three years. This meant the period of assignment would conclude in 2025. It would be informed by the developments. There were certain matters that it was jointly working on. It established a team assigned to sit and deal with the matters handled by the DPCI. It already had some of the matters on the court roll. Others were pending decisions while others were still under investigation. It continued to deal with these matters and would do so until they were finalised.

On the greylisting and what it was doing to get out of it, it had a national team comprised of various stakeholders, and they were within the law enforcement space. It worked closely with the NPA. The deputy national director of public prosecution was chairing a sub-committee that dealt with matters that required criminal investigations, prosecution and the pursuit of assets. It was not working alone on this. Internally, it planned with and invited the detective service and forensic crime intelligence to find a way forward.

When it came to prosecution and investigations into money laundering, the Department did that. In the Durban Solid Waste (DSW) matter on the court roll pending trial, there were 2 400 money laundering charges in that specific case. The matter of the gangsters in the Western Cape was going to the High Court with more than 3 000 charges. There were several counts of money laundering. It always prosecuted money laundering. The area of typologies was where it was found wanting. It focused on certain typologies, so it was not seen dealing with self-laundering, but it looked at professional launderers. It also looked at terror financing. It worked closely with the Financial Intelligence Centre (FIC) on this. Banks were expected to report suspicious transactions. There were plans in place that it worked on.

It was still faced with challenges, which were being addressed. On the issue of capacity, the presentation highlighted capacitation. It was hinted that 240, among the enlisted, would be coming to the DPCI. When it came to capacity, it was at 54%. Some posts were being finalised. Project 290 is expected to be finalised this month so that the employees could start next month. That would add more than 100 new officials over and above those it would be elevating from within. That was the 290 posts it was trying to fill. It was building on these. The plan was to fill all the vacancies within two financial years. This would assist the directorate if it could be assisted financially to ensure it filled these vacancies.

The other issue was on some of the facilities, which was raised in the past – it still needed to be dealt with. Those were the areas that were raised for the DPCI to respond to. He would be reminded and respond to the rest if he missed any questions.

Lt Gen Elias Mawela, Gauteng Provincial Police Commissioner, responded to the question of Mondeor Police Station, three people were arrested and released on bail. However, it had a solid case against them. The matter was remanded to 30 May 2023. The Department was not shaken; it knew that it would get a positive result out of this.

On the Orange Farm, the Orange Farm detectives were allocated 27 vehicles, of which five were ready for boarding and one was at the garage. An additional two vehicles were allocated and awaited delivery. It did not see any challenge with it, saying it did not have vehicles to investigate.

On the issue of Thatha-Zonke in Ekurhuleni, this was a private security company anti-crime unit which collaborated with the police, SAPS and the Ekurhuleni Metropolitan Municipality Police Department (EMPD) to share information and work together during the joint operation. The previous incident had information about the people who committed the crime. It responded with EMPD, people were arrested, and firearms were recovered.

Lt Gen Sello Kwena, North West Provincial Commissioner, responded to Mr Dodovu’s question about the gangs in Klerksdorp in Jouberton. He said that the main gangs in this area were Al-Qaeda and Boko Haram. Last year, the head of Boko Haram was killed in a drive-by shooting. Two mine shafts were closed. The Deputy Minister and Minister visited them in Jouberton. Since the shafts were closed, the Sothos involved with the Zama-Zamas moved towards the communities where it experienced a lot of house and business robberies. The province itself had an anti-gang unit making in-roads on gang activity. Al-Qaeda and Boko Haram mainly focused on contracts awarded by the municipality. The Zama-Zamas were more into gangs and taxis, where there were killings in various areas. There was a task team for this issue, and two members were already arrested, who were appearing in court for attempted murders. These people even went as far as the Eastern Cape to assassinate one of the taxi drivers. The police made some in-roads, and the situation was much better regarding Al-Qaeda and Boko Haram and the gangs in the area. The main issue that was currently bothering the police with gangsterism was that of the Basotho nationals who were now moving into the villages. As the Deputy Minister highlighted, cooperation between the communities and the police led to the arrest of one member of the community. This individual was a foreign national, in possession of 14 hand grenades. This occurred last week. The case was with the court, and the police did the arrest.

On the issues raised by Ms Visser, he was surprised that he indicated that nothing was happening in Klerksdorp. He was in constant liaison with Ms Visser, whether it was service delivery protests. It was the police, together with the community, that ensured that a director in the Department of Education was arrested. This was after more than 300 cattle were found on his farm. The livestock was given back to their rightful owners. The farmers in the community assisted it with a chopper to obtain more cattle on the farm. The case was with the court in Delareyville. To improve the detection rate of stock theft, the police established a satellite stock theft unit, one in Kudume (sp) and the other in Mogwase, as there were many villages on that side. The Sunnysoft (sp) Police and surrounding police stations are working closely with the farmers to prevent theft of stock and copper cables. It noted the shortage of personnel in the area. Hence, in the current allocation, it increased the number of members, in Sunnysoft. This was to ensure they were more visible in rural safety. Two weeks ago, SAPS in the North West assisted the office of the magistrate. This was to ensure 787 cattle were impounded and sent to a pound in Virginia, because they were on the farm unlawfully. Ms Visser was fully aware of this, along with the involvement of the police on the matter. SAPS was doing this in the North West, in consultation and collaboration with members of the communities, farmers and security, to ensure it prevented stock theft.

Lt Gen Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi,   KZN Provincial Commissioner, said there was a comment on KZN about the docket space of Ugu. The Department did not have a police station called Ugu; it had a district. He was not sure what the Committee Member was referring to. On the storage facilities in the province, he said that the Department did not have as many challenges. However, it was running out of space, as it kept piling the papers it produced as it did its work. There were regulations and organisation of how files needed to be stored, which it tried, by all means, to comply with. When the working storeroom was full, it always moved those files into the archives, because they were not being used.

Maj Gen Leon Rabie, Component Head: Strategic Management,   SAPS, responded to the survey that was conducted in 2021 and the follow-up, when it received the results and the interpretation of the results from the University of South Africa (UNISA), it highlighted a few aspects that were identified during the surveys that the Department needed to correct. When it interviewed the people who visited police stations and asked what the key issue influencing the perception of SAPS was, most mentioned the way they were treated at police stations by police officers. One expected the key issue to be crime resolution. It was interesting to hear this as the key issue. It built this into its service delivery improvement programme, ensuring it addressed that.

There seemed to be inadequate communication with communities, victims of crime and complainants. Many of the issues it faced as a Department related to the perceptions people had. They could be addressed through effective communication with those affected by crime. Where trust was concerned, unfortunately, a perception could not be changed by telling people it was better. Perceptions were changed through action, not lip service. The SAPS was trying to sensitise its members as it went through the service delivery improvement programme. Perceptions need to be changed through action, and people should feel and experience the difference in how it respond to crime and involved communities. There was a need for transparency, which was linked to the community-oriented policing approach. It needed to be more transparent in how it communicated with its communities and get them more involved in its initiatives to address crime.

When talking about transparency, another issue that came up was that of accountability. It was not a matter of accounting for everything it did, but it needed to keep communities updated on its implemented actions and progress. It was about listening to communities and actively addressing the concerns raised by communities. Community engagement was key to the perception problem it currently faces. The way it treated people on a daily basis needed to be improved. It needed to respect the communities, and people needed to be treated with courtesy and empathy. This included victims of crime, witnesses and communities in general. Whilst community perceptions were problematic, morale issues also needed to be addressed internally. If the workforce was unhappy, it could impact how they engaged with communities. While it looked at improving its perception of various aspects, it also looked at internal issues. These were issues that negatively impacted staff morale. Those were some of the key lessons it learned. With the second survey, which included a large sample, it hoped to get a larger aggregation per province and more specific provincial issues that it could address through its service delivery improvement initiatives.

Lt Gen Edith Mavundla, Head :Technology Management Service, SAPS, thanked the Chairperson and everyone in the meeting. On Mr Smit’s suggestion to digitise offices, it was a business-driven environment that acceded to technology processes that needed to be improved. The entity looked at the mindset, innovations it needed to start, and all economy-driven processes. This matter was discussed in the SAPS board of commissioners. The digitisation of certification was discussed, because it took time for the police officials. As indicated by the national commissioner, these places were properly identified in most of its police stations. On the affidavit initiative, it started to research such a possibility, which needed to be customised or engaged as such. On the certification, it should be noted that it also involved the Department of Education. If the Department of Education was not ready online for it to verify the certification of those specific documents, it could not continue with its digitisation. SAPS was engaged in digital transformation. It took such initiatives and researched them under its centre of excellence in the technology space.

Digitising the registering of cases was also in the plans of the SAPS. It would get to the point where it did its digital transformation on the registration of cases. There were business transformation models that needed to be confirmed, because if the crime was confirmed to have the exact elements of crime, it needed to be confirmed at the police station by a trained police official. When reporting a crime that was exacerbated by assault, a police official was the only person who could confirm the elements of crime in the reporting and registration of the crime. They determined if it was assault and was not just a slap. It transformed its environment to get the services out to the communities. Digitisation was moving towards engaging and informing the communities on what steps their complaint or registered crimes were in. It was a value chain it needed to follow on which of those priorities it needed to adhere to.

Brig Michelle Matroos, Provincial Commander: Corporate Communication, responded to the question asked by Mr Mthethwa - she indicated that she was aware that he was referring to the ‘Moja Love’ show. The SAPS was in talks with the show's producers to see how it could better collaborate in similar models. In the first broadcast episode, it was aware that its members were called out under false pretence to effect an arrest. This was when it realised that it needed to make inroads with the production team, because it called the police members without its knowledge, which were then filmed on that specific day. It had to strengthen its national instruction, which would make its members aware and understand the terms of collaborating with its production houses and film producers. It had a relationship with the ‘Skeem Saam’ production team. Whenever there was a need for it to utilise its police resources, it wrote to SAPS. SAPS then screened its scripts and received legal advice. Before it viewed issues on SAPS, it knew it had a legal opinion around it, and the organisation would be portrayed positively. On the one mentioned by Mr Mthethwa, there was corporate communication, and it engaged with it to better understand its expectations. It also looked at how it could use its platform to market its organisation. It was the ‘Sizok’thola’ Production that was being viewed there.

Maj General Mokotedi thanked the Chairperson and greeted everyone in the meeting. On the challenges the Police Services faced with infrastructure restrictions or destruction of metals with the Infrastructure Act, she indicated that the only challenge was implementing the Criminal Law Amendment Act and how it was being facilitated through all the processes of the police from the investigation to the prosecution. It was an understatement to say it was a challenge. It needed to continue educating its colleagues at all levels, within all environments. This would ensure these cases would not be trivialised.

The entity prioritised the dedicated teams, as discussed on slide 59 of the presentation. Amongst the prioritised crime threats, it further established the infrastructure task teams that would focus on these matters within the detective environment under organised crime. It envisaged that, the more it implemented its strategy, the more it would normalise this specific environment and ensure it was made permanent in organised crime. The 20 established were at the identified hotspots. These specific offences were prevalent. It would continue with this section and look into formalising it until the matter was sufficiently neutralised. If the Bill was implemented, it would not have challenges in ensuring much stricter sentences were given.

On the issues of counterterrorism, SAPS had a well-consulted strategy that was presented by SAPS and the State Security Agency (SSA) to the Ministers   in the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security (JCPS) cluster. It was awaiting the unfolding of other processes. This included the presentation that it was waiting to do, which was the strategy presentation to the National Security Council. Other processes and directives would be given thereafter. Further distribution and communication of the strategy would then be undertaken. She emphasised that the strategy was well-consulted by the team that was appointed to develop the counterterrorism strategy. The team was improving on the strategy, as it awaited the final approval. At the moment, it waited for the other processes to be undertaken and be given the directive to do so.

The Chairperson thanked GenMasemola. She was unsure if the question on the DNA database about what challenges remained was answered. A question was also raised on the building of new police stations and why the indicator was so low. There was a question asked about border security. Those were the three issues she noted that were not dealt with.

Gen Masemola thanked the Chairperson. On the DNA database, he did not remember the question. However, if the entity referred to its backlog, it had a backlog of 241 and was almost finished with it, as the backlog was below 1 000. It had a sufficient database, but only had a database of people that were arrested or were not arrested but committed a crime somewhere. The entity took DNA.

A SAPS official spoke on the issue of security enforcement in police stations. The provinces were allocated a budget for security requirement upgrades. At the national level, it executed projects in police stations. Both devolved and non-devolved. The security enforcement it did include the burglar guards, gates, perimeter wall, all the requirements for perimeter lights, etc. It included the bulletproof glass in the Community Service Centre (CSC), which closed off the CSC from the community. Those were the security reinforcements it did. For this financial year, it prioritised 44 police stations at national level that would be finalised in the current financial year.

Major-Gen Mokotedi responded to the question about the challenges it faced as a Department with border management and control. With the implementation of border management and appointments of various members within the border management agency, the mandate of the two departments was clear. On border control, SAPS’s responsibility was crime; it continued to do what was expected of it. These were services that would not be received in any other contact points, where it was expected of the police to respond to crime-related issues. There were few borders where border management was lacking in the form of personnel. It had members that were deployed to those border points. They were still assisting as much as possible. This was outlined and had various meetings with the commissioner of the border management agency about what it would be doing. Where necessary, if the border management was sufficient in certain areas, then it would do border control. This was not a problem and it did not foresee any challenges. She emphasised that it had a priority committee on any other matters on which the Department required assistance. From time to time, it collaborated to ensure cooperation and collaboration on the operations that needed to be undertaken. It had intensive operations during Easter to assist. The police did searches and seizures, opened cases or responded to cases that emerged during these operations. No challenges were being experienced. The two departments had clear mandates on border management and control.

The Chairperson said that there was also a question by Mr Mthethwa about the conditions of the police stations in KZN and the fact that none were in good condition despite there being high crime in the province. He also raised the issue of the anti-gang unit not being budgeted for in KZN. Those were the only outstanding questions. She asked for responses to those questions. She would then ask the Committee Members if they had any follow-up questions. The Deputy Minister would respond, and the meeting would then conclude.

Gen Masemola thanked the Chairperson. On the anti-gang unit in KZN, it was in the process of allocating one. It prioritised provinces that did not have anti-gang units. It would be prioritised for the current financial year so that KZN would receive something. It would be established in the current year.

Maj General CT Sithole, Acting Divisional Commissioner: Supply Chain Management,  spoke about police stations not being in good condition. It was aware of the situation. Hence, the assessments that were done and captured in the user assessment plan were where it received its information. For the leased buildings, it requested DPW to engage with the landlords on upgrades that needed to be done and changing the conditions. It had a client forum meeting today and waited for feedback from its side. On the state-owned facilities, there were 95 registered at this stage, but only eight were stationed in KZN – out of the 95 registered projects for the Crime Combating Forums (CCF). On a Medium-Term Expenditure Framework MTEF) basis, it prioritised stations for repair and upgrades. Its infrastructure maintenance services also addressed those devolved police stations, where the repairs and innovations were less than R1 million. It was aware of the situation and had registered projects that addressed the conditions of the police stations annually.

Follow-up questions
Mr Hadebe (IFP) asked what informed the pattern of budget allocations. He asked about the issue of budget and resource allocations to each station vis-a-vis the equivalence to the gravity of cases and the profile of the area of jurisdiction. He was covered by the responses. He wanted clarity on whether there were instances where the Department was required by demand to employ the services of the retired members. If so, what type of cases require that sort of intervention? If that did happen, did the Deputy Minister and the national commissioner not think there was a need for some kind of case transfer?

Mr Mthethwa said that his question about the television show was not answered. He asked if that show was real or fake. If it was real, was there any plan to ensure assistance for the people involved? It was also on social media that these people doing good work were being threatened.

On the issue of the state-owned facility, he asked that next time, the Committee receive a number of which facilities were state-owned vis-a-vis those that were private. He suggested that next time the Department should deal with this matter with DPW to build more state-owned facilities apart from those rented out.

SAPS Response
Brig Matroos said that she heard what Mr Mthethwa’s concern was. It was around the safety of those community members on the show - it needed collaboration with visible policing to do the necessary follow-ups on those safety issues. It only dealt with the planning of whatever was going to be viewed, which impacted the organisation. It was something it needed to work on with its visible policing and see how it could obtain that information.

The Deputy Minister said that Mr Mthethwa asked whether it was just a show or real. From what was being said, he assumed these were just movies acted out by people. As it was said, some of the things in the show could impact the organisation, even if it was just a show and was not something that was actually happening. Depending on the episode, if people acted on things the communities did not like, when they met the actors in real life, they saw them in the view of their actions on the show. This could cause them to have some attitude towards them. This could happen. He thought this was the question that Mr Mthethwa was asking.

Brig Matroos thanked the Deputy Minister and said he answered the question. It was indeed just a show.

Gen Masemola said the Department would follow up on this matter and see what it could do. He also received a complaint from one of South Africa’s nearby countries on a similar show, which taught its nation things. It would handle it with the head of medication and the relevant companies. On the number of state-owned facilities versus privately owned facilities, the Department would work on it. It would make that list available and send it in writing. Those were all the outstanding questions. He took the opportunity to thank the men and women in the meeting. This included the Gauteng provincial commissioner and his team for the speedy response in arresting the thugs appearing today in court, who killed the two boys in Soweto. He was thankful for the speedy response on this.

The Deputy Minister asked if the National Commissioner could speak about the issue of the utilisation of officers who retired in the context of skills transferred. It did enlist retired officers who were skilled detectives.

Gen Masemola said that he had forgotten that question. Every now and then, the Department did advertise posts where it called its retired members to return either for specific cases or assist in areas of training. They did return to assist.

Lt Gen Lineo Ntshiea, Divisional Commissioner: Human Resources Management, SAPS, said two processes that it followed with taking back colleagues that once worked for it. It had a press of re-enlistment where it re-enlisted colleagues that resigned from the police force and those that would still be below 60 because they would not have reached their retirement age. The retirement age was 60, but people could apply for early retirement from 55 years of age. It did follow the process for re-enlistment. Whenever the force advertised such positions, it received a number of colleagues that responded to its advertisements. Some processes were followed. These retirees should have left the organisation without facing any pending disciplinary cases, have clean criminal records, and be medically fit to be productive in SAPS. It enlisted its retired members on contract to address a specific problem. With its academy at the moment and the recruitment of 10 000, it contracted some of its colleagues to assist with the training, because it did not have enough trainers. It still valued their experience and the skills they gained in the police force, which it utilised.

Dr Lebeya said within the DPCI, the Department also advertised 200 posts for those who resigned or retired, who were still within the allowed age to join it on a three-year contract to assist on investigations in Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC) related cases. Their time would be coming to an end, but it would be to confirm that, in that process, their skills were transferred as they paired with those who did not have the necessary experience.

Deputy Minister’s Closing Remarks
The Deputy Minister thanked the Chairperson and the Committee for the questions. It was always helpful engaging with the Select Committee, because it gave it the opportunity to interact with the provincial members of the NCOP. It gave provincial perspectives that the Department possibly did not have the opportunity to reach at some point. It was an enlightening platform, and the Department appreciated its working relationship under the Committee’s leadership. It appreciated the Committee's work, despite the Department becoming unreasonable at times by expecting it to do the unthinkable. It appreciated it and would continue to thank it for what it did in ensuring that the Pocdatara Act was passed. It was not an easy process. The Department was grateful for the Chairperson’s leadership and the Committee's insight into the questions it raised. Sometimes it was not easy to respond to, but it was a very educational platform.

It was appreciated that the provincial commissioners were present to shed light on specific issues raised. He urged the Committee to work closely with provincial commissioners in their provinces so they could resolve some of their issues, before coming to the Committee. They could always engage with the Department’s offices or the national commissioner when there were challenges. This would ensure they all worked together as a team. When speaking about the police, communities and other stakeholders, it included the NCOP. It had a role to play in the fight against crime.

The Chairperson thanked the Deputy Minister. She also thanked the provincial commissioners, who were consistent on the platform with the NCOP. On behalf of the Committee, she thanked the Deputy Minister and the entire Department for the detailed presentation and the responses to the questions raised by the Committee Members. It was constructive engagement. It was much better than previous years when it would run out of time. The way the presentation was done was helpful and assisted the process very well. As a Committee, they understood the task of ensuring communities were safe was a huge one. The Department had its own constraints and challenges like limited budgets. The Committee hoped the Department would work hard towards meeting the targets presented in the presentation and address some of the issues raised. This included addressing the staff morale, changing certain sections of society and increasing societal trust in the police force. It urged the Department to make the best use of its resources to ensure the safety of communities. This engagement culminated in budget policy debates, which it did in the NCOP.

The meeting was adjourned.