Central Firearms Registry & Forensic Science Laboratories; with Ministry

Meeting report

The Chairperson welcomed the Minister, Deputy Minister and National Commissioner of Police. She read through the agenda, and asked that it be adopted.

Ms N Peacock (ANC) moved the adoption of the agenda. Ms L Moss (ANC) seconded its adoption.

The Chairperson said that there would not be long speeches, as Members still had to go to the House at 14:00pm. The Central Firearm Registry (CRF) and the Forensic Science Laboratory (FSL) remained the Portfolio’s Achilles' heel. The more it tries to solve it, the more it seems to be digging itself further in the mud. The Portfolio will have to see how to dig itself out of this hole, because the more that the FSL addresses its backlog, the more it is unable to keep up with the new cases which are coming in. The internal backlog will remain, unless there is some radical intervention.

Minister of Police, Gen Bheki Cele, said that he is aware that the Committee must physically be in the House as suggested by the Chairperson. They would not consume more time talking but go straight into the presentation, that will be led by the National Commissioner after he has introduced his team.

He said that the first presentation on firearms will be led by Lt Gen Masemola, and the presentation later will be led by Lt Gen Vuma.

Presentation: Firearm Amnesties and Central Firearms Registry (CFR) Action Plan

Lt Gen Sehlahle Masemola, Deputy National Commissioner: Policing, said that the presentation will report the progress since May 2021 to date, in terms of the firearm amnesty capturing as well as all other processes that follows. This means the number of firearms that were test-fired, the number of firearms that were processed and the number of firearm applications relating to amnesty firearms that has since been processed. There are over 10 000 firearm applications that have been finalised since April 2021, to date. The South African Police Service (SAPS) do acknowledge that this is not yet the progress that they would want to have, but over 10 000 applications finalised shows that SAPS have at least progressed, taking into account the current conditions where SAPS does not have a full complement of members that are at work as a result of the pandemic. SAPS members are pushing overtime to try and cover the shortages and there has been progress. He said that Maj Gen Mamotheti will take the Committee through the presentation.

Maj Gen Maropeng Mamotheti, Component Head: Firearms, Liquor and Secondhand Goods Control, presented the following: (see document for tables and graphics and provincial details)

• Section 1: Introduction

- CFR Action Plan was developed to address challenges impacting on the finalisation of firearm licence related applications.

• Section 2: Progress on Firearms Amnesties and Applications

- A total of 165 715 surrendered firearms as at 31 July 2021. 131 991 firing tests were conducted as at May 2021, which increased to 148 419 firing tests conducted to date.

- A total of 123 199 test specimens were received nationally at FSL’s for analysis, of which 54 507 were finalised and 68 692 are still in process. The issue around the finalisation of the FSL analysis will be intervened with the newly appointed Deputy National Commissioner; there has already been engagements in terms of expediting the process.

- A total of 20 439 Amnesty firearms were destructed. These firearms were subjected to Integrated Ballistic Identification System (IBIS) testing and were not linked to applications and crime.

- A total of 105 121 licence applications for surrendered firearms, of which 19 140 of these firearm applications have been finalised.

 - A total of 342 134 firearm applications in process.

- Reasons for Deviation: Absenteeism due to Covid-19; Delays in Police Financial Management System (POLFIN); Outstanding test-firing and Ballistic reports that are not linked to applications; Processing and finalisation of automated fingerprint identification system (AFIS) reports. (Interventions on slide 13)

• Section 3: Progress on CFR Action Plan

- The CFR Action Plan consists of four pillars (see document for detail on key action and progress)

- Pillar 1: Enhancement of Capacity and Capability.

Teams have been established at all nine provinces and the National Team continue to monitor progress.

All provinces, except Free State and Eastern Cape, have increased capacity.

Monitoring of the network infrastructure and Enhanced Firearms Registration System (EFRS) performance is ongoing.

- Pillar 2: Enhance Governance

A total of 8 posts filled within the CFR environment (3 members gained).

Pillar 3: Storage Facilities and Accommodation

A submission has been made to the National Department of Public Works and Infrastructure (NDPWI) for alternative accommodation as a short-term measure while there is also an active project for the repair and renovation of the Telkom Towers IT Building.

Pillar 4: System Development and Enhancement

Key activities for the procurement of e-Solution system in process

• Section 4: Report on Stolen Firearms at Police Stations

Measures put in place to secure firearms at Police Stations:

- Building and Security Standards developed and circulated for compliance.

- Clearance Committees established to inspect and to ensure procedural management of property items

- Minimised access control.

- All Commanders and members to implement measures to enhance police safety and prevention of attacks targeting police stations.

Maj Gen Mamotheti concluded that there has comparatively been progress from May 2021 to date - although the SAPS are still identifying the interventions that can improve the number of applications processed and the finalisation of the firearm amnesty. The SAPS are optimistic about the interventions in place, especially the interventions for IBIS testing and Polfin System. Once the interventions are implemented there will be improvements.

Discussion

The Chairperson asked Maj Gen Mamotheti to share her video. She finds it mindboggling that Maj Gen Mamotheti has done the presentation today, because the most complaints that she receives is about her. In one single day, she gets about 50 complaints about Maj Gen Mamotheti. She wanted to see her personally because she cannot bear the number of emails regarding complaints about her. She will make an appointment to see her and forward all of the complaints to her.

She referred to the Minister and National Commissioner and told them that the Committee had visited the CFR premises on 15 May 2021. In March 2021, the Committee had raised the matter of the firearms and firearm amnesty. The organisational plan was signed in June 2021, after the matter was raised in March 2021. Everything in this Department takes three months to complete. It takes three months for the Department to send the Committee responses on the questions which Members have asked in writing. SAPS have only employed three new employees, and five were promotion posts. She asked how SAPS will address the backlog if they only employed three new employees. SAPS has an organisational plan but they only employed three new people, which is totally unheard of. She thought that they would tell the Committee that there is action and movement, but the presentation today does not give her hope at all; unless there are other Members in the Committee that has hope, she assured that she has no hope. SAPS were supposed to respond on the court orders that have not been implemented. There were several court orders that have not been implemented.

She said that the Minister has released the crime statistics. The crime statistics will become one of the Committee’s performance indicators. This means that the Minister will have to come to the Committee to report on those crime statistics. The quarterly crime statistics show that murder went up by 66.2%, sexual offences went up by 74%, attempted murder went up by 47%, assault went up by 70%, common assault went up by 51%, common robbery went up by 65%, aggravated robbery went up by 56% and total contact crime went up by 60%. She questioned when the Committee will receive the answers to the problems, as the Committee has to engage on the crime statistics via the media. The murder per capita ratio per 100 000 of the population, is the highest that it has been for the first quarter in five years. In 2017/18 it was 8.6%; in 2018/19 it was 8.1%; in 2019/20 it was 9.3% and in 2020/21 it is 5.8% for the first quarter. The murder per capita for this quarter is 9.5% higher. She wondered whether Members have become the television spectators and viewers of these crime statistics, because the Committee has not received an invitation from the Minister to inform the Committee that the crime statistics will be released. As she did last week, she will write a letter to the Speaker to say that the Committee cannot engage on the crime statistics via the media. The crime statistics are shocking. The CFR was supposed to be improved. There has been an oversight visit to the CFR premises and she really does not know how SAPS will address the backlog by only employing three additional members.

Mr O Terblanche (DA) said that the Chairperson had made a very good summary of the predicament that the Committee is facing. He expected very specific information on the CFR building. Apparently, people do not understand that the building as it is, is life threatening. The fact that people are still accommodated in that building is a crime in itself. Apparently nobody understands that. In terms of the new system that needs to be developed, the migration to the electronic system will only be finalised in November 2024. Some Members will not see this date. He is really concerned and he does not want to be rude, but he senses a laissez-faire approach. People are not serious; people do not intend to really grab the bull by the horns. The SAPS referred to the appointment of people, but it was only a promotion exercise.

The Chairperson asked Mr Terblanche if the presentation did not indicate that there were five employees promoted and three new employees.

Mr Terblanche clarified that the presentation showed that five employees were promoted, but the other three employees were also promoted from other positions within SAPS. So that was a promotion exercise, they did not appoint entry level people for the job.

Mr A Whitfield (DA) thanked the Chairperson for her comments. It is very clear that the CFR has been put on terms by this Committee, for very good reason. If one converts the firearm licence applications that are finalised, as a percentage of the total applications in process, a quick calculation shows that the overall total, across firearm competency licences and business renewals, is an average of 27% of the total applications in process. It might be less than that, and the calculation might not be 100% accurate but he guaranteed to go back and do the calculations. For surrendered firearms over the two years, it is 18%. It is therefore no surprise that the Chairperson is receiving all of those very frustrating emails, because it almost seems impossible that such dysfunction is unintentional. To create such chaos in the CFR that there has been no demonstrable improvement since the Committee visited the CFR is simply shocking. He asked how many amnesty firearms have been stolen. He asked what progress has actually been made with regard to bringing the entire firearm application system fully online as discussed during the oversight visit.

Dr P Groenewald (FF+) said that in 2020/2021 there were 75 363 licence applications for surrendered firearms, with only 4 241 finalised to date; he would like to know why and he does not want to hear that it is due to Covid-19 and all of the other factors mentioned. The figure is really a big concern as this is only for licence applications after the firearms were surrendered. There are many people, specifically farmers, that had to hand in their firearms and who had reapplied for a licence, but now they do not have any firearms to protect themselves.

He referred to the Polfin - Enhanced Firearms Registration System (EFRS) integration (slide 13), where the reasons for deviation is because of payments not linked to the applications and the delay in rectifying payment on the Polfin System. It is disturbing that in 2010, the Ministerial Task Team reported on a visit to the CFR and already identified that the Polfin System was a problem, but now it is August 2021. It was said that SAPS will conduct workshops in the provinces for designated firearms officers (DFOs) and Cashier Services for POLFIN and EFRS linkages. It is totally unacceptable that after all these years that they are only conducting workshops now. It is supposed that if the DFO’s and Cashiers are assigned to those positions, that they know the job. He asked why workshops were only being conducted now. The Polfin System has a severe impact on the licencing and competence certificates, and this has already been identified as a problem in 2010.

In terms of the measures to secure firearms at police stations, he said that the list of measures that were implemented to address security of firearms in SAPS 13 stores are nothing new, and that the measures were always supposed to be in place. For instance, it said that access control to SAPS 13 stores are now limited to authorised members. He asked if this meant that unauthorised members were previously permitted entry into the SAPS 13 stores. This means that there was no proper access control and he asked how this was possible. He said that these measures are nothing new, but it has just been put in a different order as a presentation to the Committee; which is totally unacceptable and the Committee cannot continue in this way. Another measure mentioned was the National Instruction 6 of 2018 on Movable Government Property that includes specific requirements for the management of SAPS firearms circulated. This is a National Instruction from 2018 and we are now in 2021. This is proof that there is no proper command, there is no proper control and this is why there is a situation of illegal firearms.

He said that the Eastern Cape remains a serious problem. On 28 June 2019, he already asked a question about the lost firearms and ammunition at police stations, for the last six financial years at that stage. In the Eastern Cape alone, there were 3 231 406 rounds of ammunition lost in a single year (2016/2017). When referring to the destruction of surrendered firearms per province, in 2020/2021, there were zero destruction of firearms in KwaZulu-Natal, North West, Northern Cape, Western Cape and especially the Eastern Cape. With this history, this amounts to more than 5 million rounds of ammunition lost in the Eastern Cape. This is a pandemic in the Eastern Cape. He asked how many firearms have been handed in during the amnesty period in the Eastern Cape. Why has none of those firearms that qualified, been destructed in that province?

Rev K Meshoe (ACDP) said that he concurred with the Chairpersons remarks, it was spot on. The Committee was very concerned about what is happening with the CFR. It was said that on 1 March 2021, the Deputy Minister and the Deputy National Commissioner: Policing and Divisional Commissioners, visited the Veritas Building that was not fit for occupation. He asked what shortcomings have been identified when they visited the building, and what interventions have been implemented so far. It is surprising and shocking to know that, to date, staff are expected to be productive in a building that should have been condemned a long time ago. The Committee had previously asked that they be provided with the name and contact details of the person that owns the building, but nothing has been said about that. It is suspected that there must be an arrangement between the owner of the building and whoever is approving the lease. He asked if the Committee may request that they be given that information as soon as possible.

With regard to the measures to secure firearms at SAPS 13 stores, it is a concern to hear that stricter access control is going to be implemented. He questioned whether any police member was able to walk in. What has been the practice? The Committee is now promised that access control is going to be improved. What has been the norm? Is it surprising that so many firearms are lost and that more than 50% of these firearms are not recovered? There is something seriously wrong in the SAPS management and the root of the problem must be found. The Committee wants to know what happened during the looting and destruction of property during July 2021, because it was as if nobody knew what to do, particularly in the first three days when there were no visible policemen on the ground at KwaZulu-Natal. Is there management that gives direction? Are the commanders commanding? What is the problem?

He referred to the thousands of firearms that have been handed in but have not yet been destroyed. He questioned whether these firearms were planned on being released to criminals, which has been heard of. There were officials, or there are still officials, who have not yet been caught, who rent out firearms. Crime in South Africa will not go down until the police management brings order amongst their own people. Members were disappointed that a number of questions that they had expected responses to that morning were not answered. The Members agree with the Chairperson that when crime statistics are released that it is not fair for Members of Parliament to get information after the media has got it, and to hear such information on television without being given the privilege of being informed, so that if Members have questions that they are able to ask those questions. After the crime statistics are released, then people ask the Members questions. Members are unable to answer the questions because they have not been taken into the confidence of the police. Either SAPS are deliberately hiding things from the Committee, for reasons that they know, or he is not sure what is happening. Members of this Committee are responsible for oversight of the Department and should have the privilege of knowing what the journalists do not know. The journalists seem to have more information than the Committee, which is very disappointing.

Mr H Shembeni (EFF) said that this is not the first time that the media has gotten the crime statistics before the Committee. Seemingly, the Committee does not get the cooperation of the Minister. This undermines the Committee. The Minister said that he preferred to first take the statistics to the Cabinet and then to the media. This means that this Committee means nothing to him because he does not report to the Committee. The Minister is undermining the Committee and this should change. In terms of the firearms that were handed in across different provinces, no firearms were destructed in 2020/2021 for Eastern Cape, KwaZulu-Natal, North West, Northern Cape and Western Cape. He asked why these firearms were not destroyed. When are these firearms going to be destroyed? What is going to happen if those firearms are stolen? How many of those firearms are foreign-made? How many of the firearms that were handed in, have been reported stolen and handed back to their owners? He is aware that some of these are related to cases of negligence, before the firearm is stolen. Are such cases being investigated? How long does it take for a firearm licence application to be finalised? For instance, there are 4 028 renewals of individual applications that have not been finalised for more than two years, this is totally unacceptable. People with firearms are still covered by the regulation if they made their applications for their licence to be valid, but it does not make sense that you can apply for a firearm licence and wait two years for approval. During these two years, other applications are made within the CFR. He agreed with other Members that there were no new enlistments in the CFR, there has only been the promotion of five members and three other members that were brought in from other sections within the SAPS. He asked how many of the recovered firearms have been used in crimes, such as murder, armed robberies, hijackings, heists etc.

Mr K Maphatsoe (ANC) agreed that the Committee had made requests about the release of the crime statistics many times. The Minister said that he does not have to report to the Committee and that he first reports to the President, which the Committee does not have a problem with, because that is the chain of command. But after the President is satisfied, the Committee should have a sense of what is happening. The Committee Members are undermined and treated just like any other citizen who has to go and watch the crime statistics on television at the time that it is released. Sometimes the Minister leaves the Committee meetings to release the crime statistics, leaving the Committee Members behind, this is unacceptable and this Committee cannot continue to allow that. The Committee has an oversight role to play, and the Minister must come and present to the Committee and engage thoroughly on the crime statistics, so that the Committee can make its findings. The Minister does not have confidence in the Committee. Crime statistics are very serious. The Committee Members have constituency offices and are asked about these crime statistics, and if they do not have the crime statistics as Members of this Portfolio then they are not playing their oversight role. He suggested that the Minister should tell the Committee if he is not going to give them the crime statistics before it is released [to the media]. If the information is leaked before it is presented to the Committee, then there is a way that the Committee might handle it differently. He suggested that before releasing the crime statistics [to the media], the Minister should first have a closed session with the Committee, and later release it for the media to publish.

He referred to the electronic system that will only be finalised in November 2024. By then Members will not be in Parliament, because 2024 will be elections. This means that the recommendation that the Members made would have not been implemented [by the end of their electoral term]. He said he does not understand why it would take such a long time for the electronic system to be implemented.

During the oversight visit to the CFR premises, the Committee made recommendations. Members really sympathise with the Department, because Veritas Building is not good for human beings to work there. The Committee was informed that the building has cracks. Why were policemen and policewomen working in a building that can kill them? Yet the lease is renewed. The Committee was told that it is the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure (DPWI) that procures [office space] and that DPWI was informed that the building is not good for humans to work in. The Committee requested to know who the owner of Veritas Building was. The Committee should ask the person at DPWI why time and time again, the lease is renewed, when there have been complaints that it is not safe there. The Committee has seen the building themselves; it is not good. If there is corruption, it must be investigated because people cannot work in that building. The Committee had also requested that they be given the entire status of all the buildings of the police. There were also complaints about the building in Bloemfontein, that if it rains then water fills up the whole building and members cannot work. Yet, these leases keep on getting renewed. He questioned why these recommendations are not implemented after the Committee has made the recommendations, yet nothing has happened. The Committee has not received any report on what has transpired following the recommendations for Veritas Building.

He said that it is clear that people are not getting their licences if the systems are taking time and everything is on the table, while SAPS is working together with the State Information Technology Agency (SITA). He does not understand why it is taking time to procure and to make sure things are processed fast. He agreed that there must be something wrong with the management of SAPS.

Ms L Moss (ANC) raised a question about the IT system, because at the moment they are using the manual system and that system is not working. In the oversight visit on 15 May 2021, Members engaged in a lengthy discussion and made recommendations in the oversight meeting. Members were promised by SAPS that they were going to look into the proposals by the Committee and work on it. They even briefed the Committee and said that the Government Communication and Information System (GCIS) will also be assisting them. She asked when this new system will be finalised. These things cannot take time and take years. She agreed with the Chairperson’s remarks, that it take three months for SAPS to just respond to the questions and concerns that Members have raised.

She agreed with what Members have said about the Veritas Building. The National Commissioner had even said that he was not informed in time of when the lease would be renewed. This is a disappointment. She questioned how the lease agreement to that building was just renewed while bypassing the National Commissioner. The building is not human-friendly and men and women must work there. Every year the payment of that lease agreement is increased, while the owner knows that the building is not in good condition for people to work in. The owner still gets this money and the money is increased every year, it is tax-payer money that goes into that building. It is not only the building, but the conditions of the building are dirty. The carpets, floor, toilets and kitchen are in a really bad condition and she does not know how people work there, it is bad. The building is not even properly cleaned. Parliament informed the Committee to do oversight, and the Committee did do its oversight, but after four to five months, nothing has happening and it is still the same. DPWI is not doing the work as the custodian of all the buildings.

In terms of the intervention for the Polfin System, she asked why a team was established to focus on Gauteng and not other provinces that were also identified as hotspots. She asked why Gauteng was a special case and that this should be explained. When the Committee did the oversight visit on 15 May 2021 to Gauteng, the Provincial Commissioner of Gauteng did a presentation. The presentation made it sound like Gauteng did not have any problems and that it was the best performing province, but when the issue of looting happened in July, Gauteng was one of the worst cases that was not geared up for that violence. She is concerned that what is presented on paper, is not the reality on the ground. She feels that respect is needed where respect is supposed to be, but it seems as if the Committee is not getting respect. Members were chosen by the people of South Africa to represent them in Parliament. People voted for Members and placed their trust in the Members. Members cannot allow what has been happening in the Department of Police, because it is playing with people’s lives, particularly with regards to firearms. In Cape Town the gangsterism is very high, which is observed in Mannenberg, Heideveld, Hanover Park, Philippi and other areas, because of firearms that get lost and are not recovered.

Ms P Faku (ANC) agreed with the Chairpersons remarks that somehow, as the Committee, they make recommendations and the recommendations are not taken. Members have pleaded with the Ministry that the crime statistics should come to the Committee before it is released to the media, but that has not changed. She asked that the Ministry please take the Committee into their confidence. She had heard the Minister’s concern that when he releases the statistics in the Committee, that the information is leaked before it is officially released. Although there are leaks sometimes, she knows that the Committee must take that responsibility as Members of Parliament, because sometimes when Members are given information, then that information is seen in the media. As Members of this Committee, they have taken the stance to say that they will never politicise issues that relate to SAPS. The Committee must take full responsibility for the reasons why the statistics were not given to the Committee, but equally, the Members have committed that they would not share any statistics when the Minister comes to present it to the Committee. The Committee hopes that this will never happen again, moving forward.

The Committee had a lot of disagreement with the issue of the firearm amnesty and CFR, but it seems as if SAPS is not grappling the issue and this is why she always raises the issue of capacity. SAPS has currently received 433 applications, and only 91 of those applications were finalised, meaning that only 21% of those applications were finalised. This is something that cannot be explained. The presentations do not even mention any mitigating factors to explain why the Department is stuck with this. The Committee keeps on receiving reports that are not assisting, instead, it takes the Committee back every time it is presented. She recommended that SAPS must come to the Committee on a monthly basis, to report on the CFR, because if the Committee gives SAPS too much space, then they do the opposite and they do not give the Committee the correct information. She referred to the allocation of R30 million in addition to the baseline allocation for the CFR Action Plan to be developed. She asked if the operational cost was R60 million; she asked if this was enough and what are the reasons why SAPS cannot perform their task.

She recommended that there must be a Ministerial intervention to address the challenges between SAPS and the DPWI. The Committee knows that SAPS did not achieve some of their targets because of the challenges that they have with the DPWI. If the Ministries do not intervene, then there is going to be a serious problem. She recommended that the Minister and National Commissioner must hold their officials accountable. The lease for Veritas Building has been renewed, time and time again, whilst it was declared unfit for occupation. She suggested that the person who has been renewing this lease must be taken for disciplinary action. Why would you renew the lease of a building after being told that it was unfit for occupation? She recommends that there must be proper feedback from SAPS and a proper analysis of what is happening. The Committee must get a clear reflection on the estimated cost associated with the implementation of the digitisation of the firearms registry. The Minister needs to speak to the Minister of Communications and Digital Technologies about the cost and process. She suggested to the Chairperson that the Minister and National Commissioner should have been sent back, because this presentation shows nothing that has changed; she recommended that they should go back so that they can provide the Committee with a proper presentation, because this is unacceptable.

The Chairperson said that the Members have been lamenting today. She said that the Members have written a dictionary today to describe how distraught they are. The level of unhappiness in this Committee is growing. Members are now turning on her and taking their frustrations out on her as the Committee Chair, when indeed, the Committee is frustrated with the presentations, frustrated with the progress and the lack of progress. She referred to Section 56 of the Constitution, relating to evidence or information before National Assembly. She read that “The National Assembly or any of its committees may (a) summon any person to appear before it to give evidence on oath or affirmation, or to produce documents; (b) require any person or institution to report to it; (c) compel, in terms of national legislation or the rules and orders, any person or institution to comply with a summons or requirement in terms of paragraph (a) or (b).” The Members have spoken enough and they will issue a Section 56 notice to the Minister and National Commissioner, and the crime statistics will be released in the Committee. She requested that the next presentation continue.

Minister Cele asked when SAPS should respond to the questions.

The Chairperson replied that Members have suggested that this presentation be sent back. She said that the Committee will take the next presentation and then have responses.

Minister Cele said that he understood, but the questions are made public and must be responded to.

The Chairperson replied that she will first take the next presentation and then have the responses.

Gen Sitole, National Commissioner of Police, said that the next presentation will be led by the new Divisional Commissioner.

The Chairperson asked Gen Sitole if this was not the person who she had received so many complaints about every day.

Gen Sitole replied that he is not exactly sure what is contained in all of those emails, but he had already taken note of the Lt Gen who the Chairperson had received complaints about. SAPS is working seriously to ensure that they reduce the load from the Chair, and to ensure that the organisation provides active action to these challenges.

The Chairperson replied that she had spoken several times about the CFR in this Committee. The correspondence that she receives are from some people who have two-year delays in their applications, which have just been relayed in today’s meeting. The Committee only has three or four staff members, who have to take all of these questions which SAPS are unable to respond to. The Department of Police is a huge structure and one of the biggest Departments in this country, but the four Committee staff have to respond to all of these emails and this has been raised in this Committee. If Gen Sitole has confidence in this person then they can continue with the presentation, or else the Committee will not even expect answers from SAPS and they can close shop.

Gen Sitole said that he has made the mandate very clear, but if the Committee does not get the expected product, then SAPS will go back to the drawing board. He indicated that he will take the necessary action if SAPS do not deliver the desired product, but he does have confidence in the new Divisional Commissioner.

Presentation: Progress made in dealing with and the elimination of the DNA Analysis Backlog in the SAPS (see document)

Purpose

 Operational Approach

- DNA backlog (which was ring-fenced by SITA from 1 June 2021)

- Current cases (inclusive of new entries from 1 April – 19 August 2021)

- Joint Project with the NPA

- Public-Private Partnerships

Backlog Timeline from 01 April 2021 to 19 August 2021 (Slide 6)

- The intended objective is that by 12 November 2022 [corrected date], SAPS should have zero DNA analysis backlog

Cases Registered on the Forensics Evidence Management (FEM) System, New Entries (Slide 7-8)

- 1 April 2021 to 19 August 2021: a total of 114 962 cases registered; 43 658 of these cases were concluded and 71 304 of these cases are outstanding.

Total Cases Concluded from 01 April 2021 to 19 August 2021

- A total of 88 195 cases concluded to date (which includes the 44 537 backlog cases concluded and 43 658 new entries concluded).

Gender-Based Violence and Femicide (GBVF) Cases (Slide 11)

- 1 April – 19 August 2021, there were 90 201 cases on the system (which includes the finalised cases and current cases).

- 13 864 cases finalised; 23 193 new cases and a backlog of 53 144 cases.

 Challenges and Solutions (Slide 12)

- Forensic Service approach to contract management, and moving towards strategic procurement plans.

- Covid-19 challenges and its impact on Lab output

- Optimising Laboratory Capacity

 Solutions and Progress made (Slide 13)

- diversified and focused contract management approach

- 193 members vaccinated

- overtime and shift system to address backlog

 DNA Analysis Backlog Reduction Program – focus areas (Slide 15)

 FSL Quality Management System (Slide 17)

- GBVF public-private partnership (Memorandum of Agreement with the SAPS).

- Two National Health Laboratories: KRISP – KwaZulu-Natal Research, Innovation and Sequencing Platform; and CAF – Central Analytical Facility. Both systems are backed up by the continuous data protection to ensure that SAPS information will not be compromised during the process

Partnership Offerings and Focus Areas: DNA Processes (Slide 18)

Operational Principles (Criminal Justice System Requirements) (Slide 19)

Discussion

Mr Whitfield said that it should be welcomed that the public-private partnerships are moving in the right direction. He is concerned that every time when SAPS presents on the forensics division – which is not very often, then the Committee gets a different presentation, with different tables and different indicators. It creates confusion, as opposed to consistency in reporting which allows Members to perform their oversight responsibilities effectively. He asked that SAPS decide on a format with which they would present and stick to that format in every report to the Committee, which would make the job of the Committee a lot easier and also make it easier to hold SAPS accountable. It is very difficult to hold SAPS accountable to different standards of presenting.

It was concerning that it appears that the DNA board was not in attendance at the meeting. He asked if the Committee can get clarity on whether they are in the meeting. The DNA board appear to be missing in action insofar as playing their role in the turnaround plan, which was presented by SAPS in November 2020 to this Committee and in spite of undertakings to ensure that they play their role. He fears that they are not doing the best that they can to assist the Committee in making sure that SAPS and the forensics division, particularly in the laboratories, are fulfilling their end of the bargain. SAPS also indicated in November 2020 that they would come to the Committee with a report and send an update on a monthly basis. The Committee has only received one update in February or March of this year. The Committee has not received a monthly update, in spite of the National Commissioner’s personal commitment in that meeting and in the answers that were submitted in writing. It was indicated in writing that the Committee would receive a monthly update. That has not transpired.

The presentation format does not match the format of the turnaround plan. The Committee almost gets deliberately confused or misled due to the nature of these presentations. He is concerned that the total backlog is not accurate. The manner of the presentation is not conducive to determining what the total backlog is. He asked for confirmation that the total backlog, based on the figures in the presentation is sitting at 237 631, which is the ring-fenced backlog balance of 166 327 (slide 6), plus the current new entries backlog which is 71 304 (slide 8).

He asked how many case exhibits have been received but not registered on the database system. Because that would give the Committee an indication of the real backlog, as opposed to the case exhibits which has been registered. It is simply not true that the turnaround plan is working. He said that the Chairperson was very kind to have invited SAPS today, based on quarterly presentations the previous week, where the percentage of biology DNA case exhibits finalised within 90 days is required to be 80%. In the course of 2020/2021, it declined from 20.7% to 8.3%, the collapse continues. He is afraid that the fundamental basics are still not in place and that they are not moving in the right direction insofar as the SAPS forensics division is concerned, in spite of what SAPS tells the Committee in every single meeting. SAPS are not giving the Committee the hard facts and the hard truth that this nation requires about the crisis within the police services, particularly in its forensics division.

Dr Groenewald agreed that there is no progress. He looked at the presentation that the Committee received on 15 May 2021, when they visited the forensics laboratories. The figures in that presentation, specific to Gender-Based Violence and Femicide (GBVF), said that the total backlog was 68 235; but today’s presentation said that the backlog for GBVF is 90 201. This is an increase of 21 966 cases in backlog, and this is why he said that there is no progress. The forensic laboratories have not worked in such a manner that the backlog becomes less, but in fact it increases. These are the figures from the Department itself. In that same presentation on 15 May 2021, it said that the envisaged time period to work off the backlog is at least 18 months at full capacity from 1 July 2021. He asked what was the envisaged time period for working off the backlog, considering that there is an increase in the backlog and if it said that if it was fully operational.

He asked if the Forensics Evidence Management (FEM) System was fully operational, or if there were certain aspects of the system that were still outstanding. When the Committee visited the laboratory in Pretoria, there were quite a lot of machines that were not operational, due to the service providers and the machines that were not calibrated. He asked if those machines are now calibrated and if they are now fully operational, and if not, why not? He asked how many machines across all of the laboratories were fully operational or not. These are pertinent questions and there must be no mistake. At this moment forensics are failing the women and children of South Africa. It is no wonder that we read about cases of rape and everything that is more than two-years in arrears. The Department is talking about women’s rights and women’s month and the protection of our women and children. The people who can really contribute to protect our women and children are the forensics. If there are no test results when a woman or child was raped, then forensics has failed them, because this will not be successful in court. This is serious and this Department cannot continue to fail the women and children of South Africa. It is very nice for the President to stand up in Parliament and say that Parliament is going to put so much effort into ending the violence against women and children, but the basics and the forensics are failing and therefore the criminal justice system are failing the women and children of South Africa.

Mr Terblanche said that his remarks have been covered by Mr Whitfield and Dr Groenewald, but he would also like to emphasise the fact that the numbers are still growing. He referred to the old saying “justice delayed is justice denied”. From the presentation, he noticed that some contracts were not allocated and asked for clarity on this.

Mr Shembeni asked for clarity on the vaccination of members. It was said that 193 members were vaccinated, with 144 outstanding (slide 13). He asked what is the problem that these members have not been vaccinated. As far as he knows, SAPS are enabling these members at the institutions, so that they can be vaccinated. So, what is the problem?

Rev Meshoe said that if he had heard the presenter correctly, she said that by 12 November 2021, SAPS will have no DNA analysis backlogs. He questioned how they would get this right, particularly because there is no current evidence that SAPS are succeeding to reduce the number of backlogs. The other Members have already raised this concern. If they say that there will be zero backlogs by 12 November 2021, but in August the numbers are increasing, then how will they get this right?

The Chairperson said that Members may have noticed that she was lost for words. SAPS do not seem to read their previous presentations. The Committee Members read and do their work before they attend these meetings, so they know exactly what SAPS has said in the previous meetings and they know what has been said today. She urged that the presenters should ensure that they bring the correct facts, if they fail to do this in the future then the Committee will charge them for misleading Parliament. The Committee is going to take action from now. They cannot thumb suck and think that the Members are not reading. The Committee reads, internalises the documents and expects progress, but today they are none the wiser. The backlog is growing and it has not been reduced.

She asked that SAPS explain the public-private partnerships in more detail. She does not get a sense that there is any compliance with court orders. There has been a number of court orders for the FSL’s and there have also been a number of court orders for the CFR. Either SAPS is disregarding the court, but they are supposed to implement the law and exercise oversight over the law. She questioned how SAPS provides oversight over the law if they are breaking the law.

Response

Minister Cele said that he had heard the Chairperson when she said that the Members take their frustrations out on her when SAPS do not present themselves and answer. He assured that SAPS will answer and that he is glad that they have the opportunity to answer. He does not know how far they are with the building issues, because they have raised the concerns time and time again. Those buildings and infrastructure do not fall within the portfolio of SAPS. This is a trouble that they all face and experience, and they have requested that the department who is responsible for that is approached so that the matter can be resolved. Veritas Building is not the only residence of the CFR, there are many others, including some police stations, where one really wonders how the members are working there. The headquarters of the SAPS itself was condemned some time ago, but the lease continues. The headquarters was supposed to move into the new Telkom Towers IT Building for three years now, but not one billion has been paid, and they are not moving forward. It is a problem that the police must bear the weight. The assisting department that deals with those matters does not seem to be very helpful. Two meetings were requested with the DPWI, but it is known that the Minister responsible has been attacked by the Covid-19 virus twice, so he does not blame her for having not met to discuss the matters. This is a serious matter and the police themselves suffer on the question of these buildings.

He agreed with Rev Meshoe’s remarks, that it would be good to know the owners of these buildings, because the renewals are not just for those buildings, as some buildings are houses of people. A lot of money is paid to the owners of those houses, but the police do not get improvement on the buildings and infrastructure. The police are really finding it difficult to move forward, because the question of infrastructure does not fall within the portfolio of the police. The SAPS need to beg and request, but others do not see things as they do.

In response to the questions about the crime statistics, he said that on Wednesday, 18 August 2021, the Committee was informed that the quarterly crime statistics would officially be released on Friday, 20 August 2021. He agreed that the crime statistics were not given to the Committee. He disagreed that the Ministry undermines the Portfolio Committee, and the Members know that. There are outstanding issues that they need to sort out with regards to the release of the crime statistics, and Ms Faku’s remarks hit the nail on the head. It should not be as if the Ministry undermines the Committee. He said that the practice of the Ministry briefing the Portfolio Committee on crime statistics before releasing the crime statistics [publicly] is new, and that it was started by this Ministry in 2018. He said that in the first meeting it was requested that this be done in a closed meeting, but that was refused [by Parliament]. He suggested that these conditions have not worked, because by the time that the Ministry would release the crime statistics that it would have already been leaked to those who were not even in the briefing. The Ministry has no problem to brief the Committee on these statistics before their release, as long as that matter is resolved.

He agreed with the Chairperson on Section 56 of the Constitution, but all laws are read with other laws. It would be helpful for the Ministry and the Committee to discuss this matter moving forward. The SAPS crime statistics become official after it is given quality assurance by the Statistician-General of Statistics South Africa (Stats SA). Stats SA abides by the United Nations (UN) principles. He reiterated that the Ministry has no problem with briefing the Committee about the statistics before its release, as long as the information is protected. The assessment framework of Stats SA completely subscribes to the UN principles. He referred to the UN quality indicators and read that “statistics released is made available to all users at the same time”. The Ministry has to honour these UN principles and ensure that when they brief the Portfolio Committee that the statistics are protected. If Members leak the statistics after the briefing, then it violates the UN principles. He urged that this matter be discussed to find an amicable way for both the Ministry and the Committee to comply.

He had heard the crime statistics figures as read by the Chairperson, and said that those figures should be read in collaboration. He suggested that when the Ministry and Chairperson discuss those statistics that it will be read in collaboration with other figures and as it has been explained in the narrative. He repeated and urged that the Ministry and Committee should discuss how they can ensure the safety of the crime statistics before it is released and when briefing the Portfolio Committee, to ensure compliance with UN principles, thereafter the official crime statistics will be released on the public dates.

Dr Groenewald raised a point of order. He wanted to ensure that there is no misunderstanding. He told Minister Cele that former Minister Nhleko, former Minister Mbalula and all his other predecessors first briefed the Portfolio Committee on Police before releasing the crime statistics to the media. Minister Cele is accountable to Parliament and not to the media. With great respect, he differs with the Minister on this. He said that previously, Members of the Committee would receive the statistics, so that it could be discussed and thereafter the Minister and National Commissioner would address the media. He requested that the Chairperson ensure that the Committee get back to that system. He said that he appreciated the trend from Minister Cele, that the Committee now receives quarterly statistics, because that was not done before; but the order of the release of the crime statistics should be correct. He emphasised that in the first instance, Minister Cele is accountable to Parliament and to this Committee.

The Chairperson said that the Members are treading on very dangerous ground. She had asked all Members to be acutely aware of the fact that this is a Parliamentary meeting, and if Members mislead the Committee, then it will have serious consequences. On 18 August 2021, she received a message from Minister Cele’s Parliamentary Liaison Officer, that the members of SAPS, the public and interested parties are encouraged to view the release of the crime statistics via the social media channels. The crime statistics were released on 20 August 2021. This invitation was to the members of SAPS, members of the public and interested parties. She asked the Minister if this meant that the Committee Members were considered as the public or interested parties. That is total disrespect for this Committee. She is acutely aware of the discrepancies in what has been said and she will take those discrepancies offline.

Ms Faku said that the issue of crime statistics has been discussed before. Members have said that the crime statistics must be briefed in the Committee, because SAPS accounts to the Committee. She understands that this is a very sensitive matter and the Members have committed that whenever the crime statistics are shared with the Members, that they will not share this with any media household or whoever. As part of their responsibility, the crime statistics are supposed to be shared with the Committee, because Members of Parliament also have the responsibility to account to the public and answer their questions. It must not seem that the Committee and the Department of Police is fighting about something that they are all passionate about which is fighting crime. This is a very sensitive matter, she asked that the Ministry and Committee can move forward by agreeing that the crime statistics first be reported to the Committee.

The Chairperson noted the proposal for the crime statistics to first be reported to the Committee.

Rev Meshoe replied that he supported that. If the Minister is concerned about information being leaked to the media before his media conference, then he needs to emulate what the Minister of Finance does. Before the Minister of Finance gives his budget speech, he always briefs the Members of his committee in a closed meeting; thereafter they all go to the National Assembly. This has taken place for years, without any problems. The Ministry of Police should look at how the Minister of Finance does it, and then try to implement what works for them; but for the Portfolio Committee on Police to be denied information, because of fear that the media might get the information before the Minister’s press conference is totally unacceptable.

Minister Cele replied that the Members have raised his exact concern. There is absolutely no problem for him to brief the Committee. In response to Rev Meshoe, he said that the Ministry had previously requested that the crime statistics be briefed in a closed meeting but that was refused. He agreed with Ms Faku that it is both the responsibility of the Ministry and the Committee to ensure that the crime statistics are classified before it is officially and formally released. He agreed that if the crime statistics are briefed under the conditions of a closed meeting, with the information being safe, then there will be no problem.

Gen Sitole referred to the questions on the SAPS buildings. He said that the plea that he wanted to make is to motivate the members of the SAPS, because the issues with the building really destroys their morale. SAPS has to account and get reprimanded for things that they did not commit. The implications of the buildings are that members work in that trauma every day, yet there is pressure on SAPS to improve the firearm control. As indicated, the current legislation provides that the DPWI makes the decisions pertaining to these buildings, but does not even provide this in consultation with SAPS. The status report has been compiled because he had personally raised the issue of the SAPS buildings. SAPS requested if there could be an inter-cluster meeting, that they can then be able to provide a report to the Committee if and when SAPS gets that direction. The seriousness of this particular matter does not only affect the CFR; for example, at one stage he was at Engcobo because five SAPS members were shot dead. One of the most contributing factors was the building design, because members are not able to see who are entering into that police station. That building design is wrong and members have become the victim. There are several reports where dockets have been stolen at the DPCI offices. This problem is far deeper than just affecting the CFR, but it has the biggest bearing on SAPS functionality when trying to respond to the challenges of the CFR. He made a plea for the support of the Committee on this particular matter, especially regarding the legislation in the matter.

In response to the delay of the reports, he noted that this matter has also been raised in previous meetings. He gave clear directives for each and every report that would be required by Parliament. He explained that when SAPS generate the responses, that they obtain the information from the divisions and some information is obtained from the provinces and the stations, so they have to ensure different deadlines for themselves, but they will ask the Committee for reasonable time based on when the information is obtained. He agreed with the Chairperson’s remarks, that it is unacceptable to wait three months for the reports. He had also indicated that there should be direct reporting to him, so that if there is any retarding of any progress then he can take action. SAPS will apply consequence management where there is an unexplained delay.

In terms of the employment/promotion of three people in the CFR environment, he said that during the time of reporting, the recruitment process was suspended as a result of Covid-19, but the promotion process was unlocked and that is why the posts were filled by promotions. The recruitment process has since been unlocked to a certain extent, specifically for forensics. He had also issued further instructions that SAPS make special arrangement for the transfer and redeployment of forensic capacity in order to resolve the current challenges that is faced.

In terms of the digital migration of the filing system, he said that by law this matter is in the hands of SITA, but there is good working cooperation between SAPS and SITA. SITA has indicated that the process starts 1 November 2021, and after that the contract will run for three years, ending in 2024. SAPS will be working together with SITA to enhance and fast-track the process, but SAPS cannot determine and decide when this will be operational, that is decided by SITA.

In response to the question on why workshops were not conducted in other provinces, he replied that the service training is a continuous training process for SAPS, to ensure that members do not lose touch, that they absorb new developments and build their capacity. SAPS also continuously caters for the changing service promise for their clients and to ensure enhancements.

In response to the question about the building owners, he replied that SAPS might make it available but from a legal perspective, it is most advisable that the details of the building owners come from DPWI. SAPS do not necessarily tamper with procurement processes that fall within the DPWI. If it comes to a push, then SAPS can ask DPWI to avail the details of all the buildings to the Committee, but SAPS avoids contact with the owners of the buildings.

In terms of the concerns with the access control at SAPS 13 stores, he said that from a risk management point of view, SAPS do continuous risk assessment processes irrespective of which measure were put in place, because new risks may arise and so that SAPS can update their risk register and the enterprise risk management plan. This is not to say that the access control measures are new, but it is a continuous process of making sure that SAPS strengthen the internal control framework and risk management.

Lt Gen Masemola, referred to the safekeeping of firearms at police stations. He said that SAPS did take direction from the National Instruction 6 of 2018 on Movable Government Property (MGP), but SAPS emphasised certain functions within that directive to ensure that station commanders and supervisors should do first- and second-line inspections, meaning that supervisors must check on the firearms on a daily basis and the station commander and its management must do inspections once a week. By doing that they will be able to immediately identify any illicit activity with firearms that are used by members or firearms in the SAPS 13 Stores. Access is strictly restricted and if there is any illicit activity then SAPS does take action. Unfortunately, in one instance the member committed suicide, but with other previous illicit activity at other police stations, action was taken where members were fired and imprisoned for illicit activity within the SAPS 13 environment. SAPS have ensured that the station commanders ensure that there are not too many firearms that are kept in the frontline to avoid criminals who might take the opportunity to steal those firearms.

In terms of the question on the Polfin-System workshops, in the past, when applying for a firearm licence or renewal, one would pay a specific amount and the receipt number would then be written in the application, this was done manually. The internal audit advised that SAPS should look into linking the payments with the firearm database system. One does not process the firearm application unless the system indicates the money as having been paid. Since May 2020, the e-filing system has been linked to the financial system. The Polfin-System workshop started in May 2020 and is still underway. A few provinces still need the workshops to train the cashiers and DFO’s.

In response to the question on why firearms were not destructed in certain provinces, he said that before firearms are destructed that a National Team would first audit the specific province. Members would recall that Limpopo was previously not included in the destruction of firearms. It is only once the National Team finalise the audits that the firearms are then destroyed. There are also other possible outstanding matters such as Ballistic Reports, so the batch is then not yet destroyed.

In response to the lost ammunition in the Eastern Cape, he said that a lot of ammunition that was used were used for work purposes but was not written-off on the system, and in terms of the supply-chain policies, if there is any shortage of ammunition a case is opened to investigate. Some of this ammunition – not all, are ammunition that was used by police members who went for training, but the ammunition was not written-off on the system.

In response to the question on how many surrendered firearms are foreign-made, he said that majority of the firearms in South Africa are foreign-made, imported and sold locally. The R4 and R5 firearms that are used by the South African Defence Force or by SAPS are manufactured locally in South Africa, but the majority of the handguns are foreign.

In terms of the personnel at CFR, he said that Members might be aware that SAPS have not trained police for the past year, currently SAPS only has new members who come from college. SAPS is on a priority list now and because of the unemployment, the only process is by robbing Peter to pay Paul, but SAPS is prioritised by the support services for enlistment.

In response to the recovered firearms that were used in crime, he said that SAPS currently has firearms that were used in crimes but these are not necessarily amnesty firearms.

In response to the question relating to 91 firearms that were captured on EFRS in the amnesty period of 2019/2020 (Slide 6), he said that there is a total of 165 715 firearms handed in for both amnesty periods. Over 2 000 of these firearms have problems with capturing which are called “preferences”. The “preferences” means that when these 2 381 firearms were captured, in one way or another, either because of the barrel or the make of the firearm, the firearm was captured wrongly and as the process of licencing occurs, the firearm cannot be taken in stock. For example, if a Beretta 9mm, is captured as a 7.65mm, there will be a problem because the firearm is a 9mm not a 7.65mm, a 7.65mm will only be found under rifles. These are the firearms that head office and the provinces are dealing with to rectify. So, the firearms under that category are 2 381, and 91 of these firearms have been captured and finalised during the 2019/2020 amnesty period, and 1 629 of these firearms have been captured and finalised during the 2020/2021 amnesty period. Which then takes the total of firearms captured on EFRS in May 2021 from 47 409 to 49 063 for the 2019/2020 amnesty period; and from 114 205 to 116 652 for the 2020/2021 amnesty period.

Lt Gen Francinah Vuma, Deputy National Commissioner: Corporate Support Services, said in that in terms of the capacity, it is true that SAPS has not been able to recruit within its organisation. Members will recall that in 2019, the President pronounced that SAPS will employ 7 000 recruits over a period of two-years, which has not happened to date. In 2020, SAPS had Human Resource priorities as it wanted to capacitate the organisation with the necessary resources required. Unfortunately, there was a budget cut that was introduced by National Treasury, where SAPS had to revisit its priorities, and at that time SAPS already advertised more than 3 000 promotion posts that were needed to assist the organisation in terms of the supervisory posts. Most of the vacancies are at the supervisory level. In order for SAPS to capacitate the supervisory level, this needed to be done through the promotion process. Due to the budgetary cut, SAPS had to halt the process and have since released less than 1 000 of those posts due to insufficient funding. SAPS have even gone further to capacitate the organisation by recruiting reservists. SAPS were only able to recruit 2 400 reservists, and plan on recruiting another 1 000 reservists in the next few weeks. In the next financial year, SAPS is also planning to recruit 2 000 Public Service Act officials within the organisation, in order to top-up their salaries instead of starting from scratch, because of the pressures due to the condensed budget. It has not been easy for SAPS to capacitate, but with the minimum resources at disposal, SAPS is prioritising the CFR and the FSL environments.

Mr Cassel Mathale, Deputy Minister of Police, agreed with the Minister’s remarks, that the Ministry and Department had no intention to disrespect the Committee. The Ministry and Department have always respected the Committee and have always availed themselves to appear before the Committee. In response to the question by Rev Meshoe, regarding the Deputy Minister and Deputy National Commissioners visit to Veritas Building and the impression thereof, he said that the Minister correctly stated that the building is not ideal, and the Ministry did initiate processes with the DPWI for the staff to move out of that building. He agreed with the observation that the building is not conducive for work. The files are piled in the passages and boardrooms, which further makes it a deathtrap and he does not want to contemplate what could happen. He did inform Members the previous week that sometimes the Department might raise their challenges with regards to Covid-19, and he understands that Dr Groenewald and Members may have reached the stage where they do not want to hear that the challenges are due to Covid-19, but it is a fact and a reality that Covid-19 is negatively impacting on the day-to-day operation. In his visit to the Telkom Towers IT Building, he checked the state of readiness of the building. During that day a great number of people who worked there tested positive for Covid-19 and they had to close operations, and everyone had to quarantine for 14 days. This is an experience that is experienced throughout the SAPS workspace, including police stations, laboratories and the CFR. From time-to-time offices get closed and personnel have to quarantine at home for 14 days because it is mandatory to isolate. So, Covid-19 is impacting negatively on the work that the Department does. The Department are doing everything in their means to move those employees from Veritas Building to the Telkom Towers IT Building. The major stumbling block is the DPWI. The Minister had said that the meeting with the Minister of DPWI was postponed twice, not by her own making but because she had contracted this virus. The Ministry, Department and Members must all acknowledge the problem that the Department is faced with, but it does not mean that they must not account for what they are supposed to do. The Department must also not defy their failures because of Covid-19, and it needs to rise to the occasion.

He said that it is the first time that he heard about the complaints concerning Maj Gen Mamotheti who is the Component Head in the firearms division. He said that she is one of the most hard-working officers within the SAPS and she is doing everything possible to resolve the problems that are there. She did not create the problems. If there are any issues that Members of the Committee has with any member of the SAPS, then they should make the Ministry aware of such so that they can discuss it with the National Commissioner or the member concerned. He had interacted with Maj Gen Mamotheti on several occasions and what he has seen and experienced in those interactions was professionalism on her part. The complaints are from people who are frustrated because of the licences. Sometimes, when people have had a particular experience with an institution then they will take those frustrations out on certain members even though that member is not the cause of the problem. Not to say that there are no mistakes that she might have committed, but he thinks that it is important to mention that from working experience, she is one of those officers who are highly committed and who does her work. The challenges in SAPS are challenges where all members in the SAPS, including the Ministry and National Commissioner are needed to rise to the occasion to deal with those challenges.

The Chairperson said that it is very challenging when certain things are said in the Committee and seemingly people do not listen to one another. She apologised to Maj Gen Mamotheti, but she raised the matter of the emails that the Committee staff are receiving, because they can hardly do their work when they receive all of the complaints about firearms. She continuously raises this matter to plead that the Committee staff cannot receive all of those complaints. If the members of the public believe that they are going to receive a response from the Committee, hence they write directly to the Committee, then it becomes very impossible for the Committee to do their oversight work. She formally apologised to Maj Gen Mamotheti, but if she receives another letter then she is going to be extremely annoyed. The Committee staff can hardly do their work, because they have to respond to emails on a daily basis. She is tired of repeating herself and she is tired of Members who are completely annoyed with her because they believe that she is letting SAPS off the hook.

Response: Presentation on the progress made in dealing with and the elimination of the DNA Analysis Backlog in the SAPS

Gen Sitole said that he has taken note of the concern that the presentations are in a different format. He assured that SAPS will decide on a final format. SAPS will consult with the parliamentary staff and where it is extremely necessary, they will consult with Members to get their input. SAPS will change the format and will report in the manner that is expected. He apologised that the presentation format was confusing. In terms of the proposal for a monthly report, he said that SAPS will support the recommendation and await the directive from the Committee on the dates that they should provide these reports.

At the time that SAPS produced the action plan to address the backlog and new cases, this was done within the 50% Covid-19 work rotation and this was the same time that the process of the public-private partnership was arranged. The anticipation was that the public-private arrangement would absorb the entire backlog so that the normal capacity deals with the new cases. It was confirmed that the 50/50 arrangement will not work in order to complete all new cases. While SAPS works on the new cases this also overlaps with the backlog. In terms of the instructions that he has issued, he recommended that the 50/50 arrangement be changed since it has not been working. He directed that the FSL start an urgent process for the introduction of the shift system, so that they are able to deal with the daily standardised figure and ensure that there are no new cases that overlap with the backlog.

He issued an instruction to request by when and how many of the private laboratories will start to be operational. He received a report indicating that two laboratories will be functional by 1 October 2021. Which means that from that date, the normal SAPS capacity will no longer deal with the backlog and only concentrate on the new cases. In that manner, it will reduce the backlog and allow the SAPS to work on the new cases.

He has taken note of the concern that the correct facts need to be in the presentation. He himself and the Ministry are working to fast-track the appointment of the new Deputy National Commissioner for crime detection, who would be responsible for going through the presentations before a new presentation is produced, to ensure that all information is clarified and that the information aligns.

He instructed the Integrated Resource Committee to work on the resource requirements for the shift system and to address the support that the members might need, including the budget and overtime issues.

Under the guidance and directive of the Ministry, SAPS has assembled a committee of science experts to provide scientific guidance. From 1 October 2021 the FSL will start working with the two laboratories, and it was said that they would be able to do approximately 5 000 cases per day. The FSL will add more laboratories to work with, to continue working on the backlog.

Lt Gen Vuma referred to the question regarding the contracts that were outstanding. SAPS had since concluded 14 contracts that were active since March 2020 to date, and 6 contracts are currently under evaluation. With regard to the consumables and items outstanding for contracts, SAPS had since received a delegation from National Treasury that has given SAPS up to R1 million for quotations on acquisition of goods and services. SAPS has given the entire R1 million to forensics services, with the understanding of the issues and challenges that are experienced in that particular space.

With regard to the work days lost due to Covid-19, she said that the shift system, which the National Commissioner has alluded to, is part of the condition of service that requires to be negotiated by organised labour. That process is underway and there is positive support from labour organisations, and will be concluded by the end of this month.

A SAPS Divisional Commissioner said that the remaining 144 members who had outstanding vaccines were those that preferred the Pfizer vaccine as opposed to the Johnson & Johnson's vaccine. At the time of request, the Pfizer vaccine was out of stock in the country but POLMED are working together with Medscheme to acquire the Pfizer vaccine for members to get vaccinated.

In terms of the envisaged timeline for SAPS to have zero DNA analysis backlog by 12 November 2021, she replied that this was a mistake and that the envisaged timeline is for 12 November 2022.

Mr Whitfield asked whether the public-private partnership will be dealing with the reference samples or the crime scene samples.

A SAPS Divisional Commissioner replied that the GBVF partnership will be working on the outstanding GBVF case work and the crime index, but they will also assist with the reference samples.

Minister Cele said that SAPS believes that the public-private partnership will really work. He said that the SAPS do work with the National Prosecuting Authority (NPA) to try to speed up the backlog. In terms of the outstanding items related to the contracts, as Lt Gen Vuma alluded to, it is believed that when those contracts are in place that it will enable the FSL to make progress in addressing its challenges.

He wanted to clarify that no other preceding Minister ever discussed the crime statistics with the Portfolio Committee of Police before it was released. He said that his is the first Ministry of Police to brief the Portfolio Committee before releasing the crime statistics.

Closing Remarks

The Chairperson concluded that Members would meet later in the House for a debate. Members will ensure that the debate runs smoothly today; the Minister will also be participating in the debate. The next meeting was the next day, 25 August 2021 at 09:00am. She thanked everyone for participating in the meeting, It was a tough meeting but the CFR and FSL is a very weak spot. The Committee will leave no stone unturned until it has corrected these two divisions in SAPS. The Department cannot say that it is fighting against GBVF but the cases are not brought to court, it is an indictment on women and an indictment on SAPS. This Committee will work very hard to create a more positive picture for SAPS. Right now, the communities do not have much faith in the Committee and this has to be corrected.

The meeting was adjourned.