PSC Vacancy: Interviews

Public Service and Administration

08 March 2023
Chairperson: Mr T James (ANC)
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Meeting Summary

Video

Ms Mandisa Fatyela
Ms Refilwe Sebela
Mr Bhekizenzo Tembe
Vincent Magerman
Mr Madoda Sefuba
Mr Sifiso Khumalo

The Interview Subcommittee of the Portfolio Committee met in person to conduct interviews for filling the Commissioner vacancy at the Public Service Commission (PSC) . The Committee was notified in advance that one candidate had asked to withdraw from the process.

The Committee interviewed six candidates: Mr Bhekizenzo Tembe, Mr Madoda Sefuba, Ms Mandisa Fatyela, Ms Refilwe Sebela, Mr Vincent Magerman, Mr Sifiso Khumalo

The interview questions focused on what candidates could offer based on their experience; their proposed strategies to deal with uprooting corruption in the public service and related questions dealing with public servants doing business with the state, financial disclosure compliance; irregular appointments, consequence management and lifestyle audits.

The interview panel was interested to know the candidate’s vision for the PSC and views on its impact, independence and impartiality and how the PSC should re-position itself to fulfil its wider mandate of the values and principles governing public administration.

Members asked candidates if they had encountered officials doing business with the state and for suggestions for improved disciplinary procedures to avoid prolonging cases unnecessarily. The promotion of unqualified people was raised.

Candidates were asked to demonstrate their understanding of the National Framework towards implementation of Professionalism in the Public Sector, accountability, supply chain management challenges and how slow service delivery could be addressed in the context of dwindling state resources.

Meeting report

The meeting was closed to the public between 8:30 and 10:00 during which the Subcommittee discussed the interview process, candidates and questions.

The Chairperson informed the meeting that Ms Cynthia Rossouw had indicated that she had withdrawn from the interview process.

For each candidate interview, the Chairperson explained the interview was for the vacant Commissioner position in the Public Service Commission. The interview would be more practical than theoretical but they expected the candidate to juxtapose those two elements in the response.

The interview began with the candidate’s 15 minute presentation about the PSC followed by questions by the panel. At the end of the interview, the candidate was asked for comments or questions. Thereafter the Chairperson informed the candidates they would be notified of the outcome after the interview process had concluded.

See video recording for the interviewee responses.

Candidate 1: Mr Bhekizenzo Tembe
Ms M Kibi (ANC) asked Mr Tembe if he knew of incidents of government officials deliberately deviating from legislation and doing business with the state. She asked for actual examples.

Ms V Malomane (ANC) asked what steps the PSC should take to verify financial disclosures as well as ascertaining if an official is doing business with the state.

Ms T Mgweba (ANC) asked how the PSC could verify if someone was appointed irregularly after a complaint had been lodged with the Commission. What procedural steps would PSC follow to determine the veracity of an appointment?

Ms R Komane (EFF) stated that the PSC functions to promote the values and principles governing public administration and give direction to ensure personnel comply with these. She asked the candidate to evaluate if the PSC was making an impact in the public service domain. How could the PSC re-position itself to fulfil its wider mandate on public administration values and principles?

Mr C Sibisi (NFP) said that the National Framework towards the implementation of Professionalism in the Public Sector made proposals to stabilise public administration by ensuring personnel are appointed on merit-based recruitment and selection. Section 196 of the Constitution mandates the PSC to investigate, monitor and evaluate personnel practices in the public service. He asked the candidate to demonstrate his understanding of this framework and the role the PSC should play in ensuring implementation of the National Framework.

Dr M Gondwe (DA) asked what vision the candidate had in mind for transforming the PSC without compromising its independence and impartiality.

Dr Gondwe asked how independence of the PSC administration can be safeguarded since its officials are appointed in terms of the Public Service Act.

The Chairperson said that it is believed that a responsive, ethical and value-driven public service depends on the investigation of its malpractices, particularly irregular appointments, and curbing of corruption. He asked how the PSC could strengthen its investigation into unethical conduct and play a meaningful role in curbing corruption in the public service.

Candidate 2: Mr Madoda Sefuba
Dr M Gondwe (DA) asked what sort of tangible actions should be taken against officials who do not disclose their financial interests and who should take action against those officials.

Mr Sibisi noted that the candidate had said that employers should not rush to court or disciplinary hearings without merit. He asked the candidate to give examples and unpack the consequences of such behaviour.

Ms Komane noted that the candidate was aware of the regulation that lifestyle audits are mandatory. However, we find some senior managers are not being audited. She asked how PSC should navigate between the employees’ inheritance and correctly determining their lifestyle audits.

The Chairperson said that it is believed that a responsive, ethical and value-driven public service depends on investigation of its malpractices, particularly irregular appointments, and curbing of corruption. He asked how the PSC could strengthen its investigation into unethical conduct and play a meaningful role in curbing corruption in the public service.

Ms Mgweba stated that the PSC functions to promote the values and principles governing public administration and give direction to ensure personnel comply with these. She asked the candidate to evaluate if the PSC was making an impact in the public service domain. How could the PSC re-position itself to fulfil its wider mandate on public administration values and principles?

Ms Malomane said that the National Framework towards the implementation of Professionalism in the Public Sector made proposals to stabilise public administration by ensuring personnel are appointed on merit-based recruitment and selection. Section 196 of the Constitution mandates the PSC to investigate, monitor and evaluate personnel practices in the public service. She asked the candidate to demonstrate his understanding of this framework and what role the PSC should play in ensuring the implementation of the framework.

Ms Kibi asked what vision the candidate had in mind for transforming the PSC without compromising its independence and impartiality.

Ms Kibi asked how independence of the PSC administration can be safeguarded since its officials are appointed in terms of the Public Service Act.

The Chairperson repeated his previous question.

After the candidate departed the room, Ms Komane expressed dissatisfaction as the Chairperson had deviated from the agreed upon set-up and had behaved differently towards this candidate. She urged the Committee not to undermine parliamentary decorum and treat this process lightly.

The Chairperson explained that he had made an honest mistake in repeating the question. There was no intention to disadvantage any candidate.

Ms Mgweba accepted the Chairperson’s explanation. She stated that each candidate will be tested and thereafter there will be deliberations in which the Committee will recommend the best of the best. There is a stringent process laid out by Parliament for the appointment of the Commissioner.

The Committee Content Advisor explained that Members were allowed to request more information from a candidate should they feel that the candidate was not providing sufficient information.

Candidate 3: Ms Mandisa Fatyela
Ms Kibi noted the candidate’s presentation which mentioned that deviant behaviours are culture-centred and time-subjective. In light of that, she asked if the candidate believed that deviant behaviours in the public sector which had led to full blown corruption is now a culture. She asked the candidate how this culture can be uprooted.

Ms Malomane noted that the presentation had touched on the recruitment and promotion of personnel at middle and senior management level without qualifications and skills as much as they might have experience. The candidate’s view is that employees should investing in their own education and not wait for overstretched state resources to do so. She asked her who must identify the need for training – was it employer or employee or both of them. She asked for inputs from her presentation to support her answer.

Ms Mgweba noted the candidate’s firm objection to officials doing business with the state. What measures should be put in place to ensure full compliance with the Financial Disclosure Framework?

Ms Komane said that the National Framework towards the implementation of Professionalism in the Public Sector made proposals to stabilise public administration by ensuring personnel are appointed on merit-based recruitment and selection. Section 196 of the Constitution mandates the PSC to investigate, monitor and evaluate personnel practices in the public service. She asked the candidate to demonstrate her understanding of this framework and what role PSC should play in ensuring the implementation of the framework.

Mr Sibisi stated that the PSC functions to promote the values and principles governing public administration and give direction to ensure personnel comply with these. She asked the candidate to evaluate if the PSC was making an impact in the public service domain. How could the PSC re-position itself to fulfil its wider mandate on public administration values and principles?

Dr Gondwe asked what vision the candidate had in mind for transforming the PSC without compromising its independence and impartiality.

Dr Gondwe asked how independence of the PSC administration can be safeguarded since its officials are appointed in terms of the Public Service Act.

The Chairperson said that it is believed that a responsive, ethical and value-driven public service depends on investigation of its malpractices, particularly irregular appointments, and curbing of corruption. He asked how the PSC could strengthen its investigation into unethical conduct and play a meaningful role in curbing corruption in the public service.

Candidate 4: Ms RefilweSebela
Dr Gondwe asked how non-compliance with fair procurement procedures contributed towards unfairness, inequity, non-competitiveness and the escalation of costs in the public service. She asked for an indication on how those challenges could be resolved.

Mr Sibisi asked the candidate to identify which parts of the supply chain process remain a challenge despite all the training workshops across the public service as well as how those challenges could be overcome.

Ms Komane noted that the candidate had firmly spoken about defiant behaviour and its impact on the public service sector, the reputational damage of the defiant behaviour, as well as various legislation such as the Public Service Act and the Employment Equity Act. She noted the candidate’s emphasis on the promotion of qualified people. She asked if the candidate believes that the promotion of unqualified people undermines service delivery and to support her response with reference to legislation and regulations.

Ms Mgweba said that the National Framework towards the implementation of Professionalism in the Public Sector made proposals to stabilise public administration by ensuring personnel are appointed on merit-based recruitment and selection. Section 196 of the Constitution mandates the PSC to investigate, monitor and evaluate personnel practices in the public service. She asked the candidate to demonstrate her understanding of this framework and what role the PSC should play in ensuring the implementation of the framework.

Ms Malomane said that a huge amount of public funds is lost due to public officials doing business with the state. Despite legislation in place prohibiting such practices and behaviours, it seem ineffective in curbing this trend. She asked for the candidate's strategy to deal with this.

Ms Kibi asked what vision the candidate had in mind for transforming the PSC without compromising its independence and impartiality.

Ms Kibi asked how independence of the PSC administration can be safeguarded since its officials are appointed in terms of the Public Service Act.

The Chairperson said that it is believed that a responsive, ethical and value-driven public service depends on investigation of its malpractices, particularly irregular appointments, and curbing of corruption. He asked how the PSC could strengthen its investigation into unethical conduct and play a meaningful role in curbing corruption in the public service.

Candidate 5: Mr Vincent Magerman
Ms Kibi noted that Mr Magerman had stated that corruption deprives resources for healthcare, education and energy. She asked if he believes that sometimes service delivery protests were not caused by government not wanting to deliver but rather due to dwindling state resources to cater for all of society's needs. She asked how the challenge could best be addressed going forward.

Ms Malomane noted that his presentation had touched on the promotion of ethics, efficiency, economical use of resources and accountability. She asked him to explain how the PSC promotes ethical behaviour and accountability.

Ms Mgweba asked the candidate if he believed that accountability was merely about reporting what had happened and what had not happened, or if it should include mitigation strategies and consequence management measures. She asked the candidate in his view if it was happening in South Africa or not.

Ms Komane noted the candidate had attributed the challenges society faced to corruption and identified ineffective legislation as there were still many reported misconduct cases. Although the lifestyle audit is an instrument to reduce the number of public officials doing business with the state, it did not make a significant difference as public officials continued to flout the law. She asked if corrupt practices continued because those deployed to serve in those positions have been rewarded those positions due to illicit favour exchanges – or were they simply not qualified for such positions. She asked how PSC could curb that trend since the legislation was proven to be ineffective.

Mr Sibisi said that the National Framework towards the implementation of Professionalism in the Public Sector made proposals to stabilise public administration by ensuring personnel are appointed on merit-based recruitment and selection. Section 196 of the Constitution mandates the PSC to investigate, monitor and evaluate personnel practices in the public service. He asked the candidate to demonstrate his understanding of this framework.

Dr Gondwe stated that the PSC functions to promote the values and principles governing public administration and give direction to ensure personnel comply with these. She asked the candidate to evaluate if the PSC was making an impact in the public service domain. She noted in his presentation he felt that the PSC was not making much of an impact. How could the PSC re-position itself to fulfil its wider mandate on public administration values and principles?

The Chairperson said that it is believed that a responsive, ethical and value-driven public service depends on investigation of its malpractices, particularly irregular appointments, and curbing of corruption. He asked how the PSC could strengthen its investigation into unethical conduct and play a meaningful role in curbing corruption in the public service.

Candidate 6: Mr Sifiso Khumalo
Dr Gondwe noted that Mr Khumalo had mentioned lifestyle audits and asked him to elaborate on this as well as its role in curbing corruption in the public service. She requested that the candidate’s explanation be based on the Financial Disclosure Framework.

Dr Gondwe noted that the Committee had recently received a briefing on the slow pace in implementing lifestyle audits which was concerning. She asked the candidate for recommendations to improve the pace of lifestyle audits in the public service sector.

Mr Sibisi asked Mr Khumalo to explain what was wrong with doing remunerative work outside of the public service and how those wrongs could be corrected.

Ms Komane asked the candidate to expand on legislation about discipline management.

Ms Komane noted Mr Khumalo's mention of the Bargaining Chamber Resolution of 2003 on the Disciplinary Code and Procedures for the Public Service. She asked how this instrument could be effectively used to reduce the number of senior management officials doing businesses with the state which caused corruption.

She noted the candidate had books which the PSC had used but given the current challenges those suggested mechanisms appeared inadequate and she asked for comment.

Ms Komane said there was a struggle to get senior management in the public service to comply with the Financial Disclosure Framework as they simply did not submit the required information. She asked how the PSC can assist in ensuring that such information is submitted.

Ms Komane said that the candidate had noted concern over what he called “the lack of commitment from the executive to put its foot down”. The candidate attributed the delays in dealing with suspensions and finalisation of disciplinary cases to that. She was in full agreement with the candidate and asked him how he could deal with those cases in a better way so as not to waste taxpayers’ money.

Ms Mgweba asked what vision the candidate had in mind for transforming the PSC without compromising its independence and impartiality.

Ms Malomane said that a huge amount of public funds is lost due to public officials doing business with the state. Despite legislation in place prohibiting such practices and behaviours, it seem ineffective in curbing this trend. She asked for the candidate's strategy to deal with this.

Ms Kibi stated that the PSC functions to promote the values and principles governing public administration and give direction to ensure personnel comply with these. She asked the candidate to evaluate if the PSC was making an impact in the public service domain. She noted in his presentation he felt that the PSC was not making much of an impact. How could the PSC re-position itself to fulfil its wider mandate on public administration values and principles?

The Chairperson said that it is believed that a responsive, ethical and value-driven public service depends on investigation of its malpractices, particularly irregular appointments, and curbing of corruption. He asked how the PSC could strengthen its investigation into unethical conduct and play a meaningful role in curbing corruption in the public service.

Discussion after interviews
Ms Mgweba said that the candidates must be vetted before submitting its recommendations because the Committee has an embarrassing experience in the past where its recommended candidates were rejected by the Presidency because of an undesirable vetting outcome. The Committee should not embarrass itself again.

Dr Gondwe supported the vetting process and agreed that the Committee would not want to embarrass itself again. She was also of the view that it would be prudent for the Committee to recommend more than one name to the Presidency. However, she was also aware that it was not a matter for discussion today and they would deliberate on the number of recommended candidates on 14 March.

Ms Komane said that she thought the Committee had agreed upon the guideline discussed this morning to recommend three names.

Ms Malomane asked what if the vetting outcomes were not ready by 14 March.

[live stream inaudible]

The Committee agreed that the number of candidates would be discussed in the next meeting.

The Chairperson adjourned the meeting.
 

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