(Subcommittee) Public Service Commissioner Interviews Day 2

Meeting report

Each candidate was introduced and invited to present a ten-minute prepared presentation. Thereafter the panel members asked questions. At the end of the interview, the candidate was given the opportunity to make concluding remarks. See video for candidate responses to the questions.

Ms Nancy Nomah Ngwenya
Ms T Mgweba (ANC) noted the candidate’s emphasis on undue political influence and cadre deployment in the appointment of senior managers. Given the candidate’s vision for effective governance, did she believe that the human resource role and responsibility should be taken away from the Executive Authority? If yes, could she explain if this would signal the end of cadre deployment practices in the public sector.

Ms M Kibi (ANC) noted that the candidate’s presentation had highlighted non-compliance with policy prescripts and inconsistency in the implementation of legislation. She asked what recommendations the candidate would put to the Minister of Public Service and Administration to reform Human Resource management in the public service.

Ms V Malomane (ANC) referred to the candidate’s presentation on strategies to deal with the "wrong" appointments of senior managers. Could she elaborate on those strategies and provide recommendations on consequence management for those wrong appointments. Should those strategies be incorporated into the Public Service Act?

Mr C Sibisi (NFP) observed that there is a huge loss of public money to corruption, especially with public servants doing business with the state. In the candidate’s opinion, how could public servants be stopped from doing business with the state since there is legislation already preventing this practice, yet still it continues?

Ms R Komane (EFF) cited the candidate’s focus on political interference and cadre deployment in the appointment of senior managers which ignores whether those managers can cope with the demands of the job. Maladministration and corruption were ingrained in the public service deterring the development of the country. She asked what were the causes for corruption in the public service sector. To what extent did the candidate see the Public Service Commission playing a meaningful role in curbing corruption in the public service. Given the current weaknesses in the public service system identified in her presentation, can the candidate propose solutions to solve those weaknesses?

Dr L Schreiber (DA) questioned if the candidate's lack of experience in the provincial and national spheres would deter her from performing her duty to a satisfactory level. The candidate’s experience was primarily in the local government sphere whereas the mandate of the PSC focused on national and provincial government.

Dr Schreiber noted the candidate’s work at Nkangala District Municipality and commented that there were some wards under that municipality which had achieved clean audits back in 2017. However, some big corruption scandals had emerged recently. One of them resulted in the arrest of the mayor. He asked what role the candidate had played in standing up to this and how a person deals with corruption as a witness.

Mr Bhekizenzo Tembe
Ms Mgweba noted the candidate’s presentation referred to competency testing which was not linked to the job tasks required. She asked for his evaluation of the competency test framework tool used to appoint competent people. How could the PSC ensure that such competency reports are used effectively so people are appointed based on competency and merit.

Ms Kibi said that the power of appointment is given to the national Minister and the provincial Member of the Executive Council (MEC) by s3(3) the Public Service Act. She asked if the human resource role should be taken away from the executive authority. If yes, she asked if this would end cadre deployment in the public service.

Ms V Malomane (ANC) asked if the law should punish those who appoint incompetent people in the public service. If so, she asked what type of punishment should be implemented.

The Chairperson asked the candidate to demonstrate his understanding of the functions of the Public Service Commission as well as the constitutional principles and values governing public administration.

Mr Sibisi remarked that maladministration and corruption are two endemics undermining the public service and this negatively impacted the development of this country. He asked what the causes for corruption were. He asked what role the PSC could play in meaningfully reducing corruption in the public service. He asked the candidate to indicate the weaknesses in the current public service system as well as proposing solutions to address those problems.

Ms Komane remarked that the aim of the PSC was to promote principle and values governing public administration as well as giving directions aimed at ensuring that personnel procedures adhering to those principles. In the candidate’s view, she asked what the PSC could do to make an impact in the public service and how the PSC could reposition itself to make an impact given its wider mandate of promoting the values and principles governing public administration.

Ms Odette Retana Ramsingh
Ms Mgweba noted that the candidate had highlighted the negative roles of nepotism and cadre deployment as challenges in the public service. She asked what the candidate would recommend to the PSC and DPSA to tackle the two obstacles in achieving a capable and developmental state.

Ms Kibi said that there is a public perception that the Public Service Commission is lagging behind in the monitoring of personnel practices in the public service, particularly in the recruitment of senior management. She asked how the candidate would propose to the other commissioners about establishing a framework so recruitment would be purely based on merit.

Ms Malomane said that the lack of effective human resource flow in the recruitment and selection process had been flagged by the Performance Management Assessment Tool (MPAT) in the past year. She asked for recommendations for the effective transformation of the human resource units in the public service to deliver on their mandate.

The Chairperson asked the candidate to demonstrate her understanding of the functions of the Public Service Commission as well as the constitutional principles and values governing public administration.

Mr Sibisi remarked that there is a huge loss of public money to corruption, especially with public servants doing business with the state. In the candidate’s opinion, how could public servants be stopped from doing business with the state since there is legislation already preventing this practice, yet still it continues?

Ms Komane asked what the candidate's vision would be for transforming the PSC without compromising its independence and impartiality. She asked how the independence of the PSC could be protected since PSC officials are appointed by the Public Service Act.

Ms Komane asked about the candidate's disability which she had referred to in her CV.

Ms Nkele Linah Mogolane
Ms Mgweba summarised the key points of the candidate’s presentation which were lack of monitoring and evaluation, political interference in the appointment of senior management and an unstructured selection process. What did the candidate believe was the role of PSC in addressing such weaknesses?

Ms Mgweba asked whether the PSC or DPSA should be monitoring personnel practices.

Ms Kibi asked for proposed interventions to strengthen the deficiencies in the recruitment and selection process, especially the misinterpretation of human resources prescripts and unethical selection panel members.

Ms Malomane commented on the candidate’s presentation on governance where she suggested a review of the Public Service Act and its regulations. She asked the candidate to elaborate on why there was a need for review and her own observations on that. She asked the candidate to align her proposal to the National Development Plan.

The Chairperson asked the candidate to demonstrate her understanding of the functions of the Public Service Commission as well as the constitutional principles and values governing public administration.

Ms Komane asked what the candidate would do to improve the Commission, if appointed.

Prof Nicolaas Johannes Jacobus Olivier
Ms Mgweba asked the candidate what he would do to strengthen the PSC in rendering its constitutional mandate to be a reliable institution for the public.

Ms Kibi asked what role the PSC could play in the recruitment and appointment of senior management in the public service with the aim of building a capable and developmental state.

Ms Kibi asked if there is a need to amend the Public Service Act to align it with the National Development Plan.

Ms Malomane asked if it should be made compulsory for government departments to submit a quarterly report on their recruitment. How would this measure improve the public service?

The Chairperson asked the candidate to demonstrate his understanding of the functions of the Public Service Commission as well as the constitutional principles and values governing public administration.

Mr Sibisi emphasised the importance of a well-run DPSA as the failure of DPSA would result in the failure of the country. The candidate had extensively talked about the standard recruitment process as well as the Senior Management Service (SMS) handbook not being adhered to. He asked where the candidate intended to begin to tackle all the weaknesses he had identified in the public service. How would the candidate ensure the SMS handbook is adhered to and implemented, if appointed?

Ms Komane commended the candidate’s careful using of certain wording in his presentation. Maladministration and corruption have become a common issue ingrained in the current administration and she asked him to explain the causes of that. How would he propose to use the PSC to combat and reduce corruption in the public service. She asked him to identify weaknesses in the public service sector and propose solutions to address those.

Mr Schreiber asked how the candidate planned to lobby the people inside the PSC and win their support to turn PSC into a more advocacy-driven and proactive organisation – given the public perception that the PSC is becoming more and more passive.

Prof Mandlenkosi Stanley Makhanya
Ms Mgweba emphasised the importance of government guarding against misaligned hiring. She asked how the PSC could play a meaningful role in assisting governmental departments appointing incompetent and incapable candidates to the public service.

Ms Kibi asked what advice the candidate would give the Minister of Public Service and Administration in devising a clearly-defined recruitment and selection framework for public service employees, if appointed.

Ms Malomane emphasised the effective recruitment and selection approach mentioned in the candidate’s presentation. She asked if in the candidate’s opinion there should be a law to punish the selection of incompetent people into positions. She asked how the PSC could monitor recruitment practices.

Mr Sibisi asked if the candidate agreed with government appointing senior managers on a contractual basis. What was the rationale for making contract appointments? What are the benefits or risks for making senior management appointments on a contractual basis?

Ms Komane remarked that the quality of the public service is dependent on the performance of its employees. The candidate's presentation had indicated loopholes in the current system which should be addressed. Given the cancerous symptoms of corruption and political interference in the public service, how would the candidate address this without compromising the independence of the PSC, if appointed.

Mr Schreiber asked for the candidate's view on the proposed hybrid appointment process in the National Development Plan for the appointment of senior management.

Mr Schreiber asked the candidate to indicate how he envisaged the PSC’s role should be in curbing the influence of political involvement such as cadre deployment in the appointment of senior managers.

Mr Schreiber asked a follow up question as he did not get a clear response. He referred to Chapter 30 of the NDP which proposed changing the appointment process. He asked the candidate if the appointment power should reside with the Executive Authority as it currently does or to change that system.

The Chairperson asked the candidate to demonstrate his understanding of the functions of the Public Service Commission as well as the constitutional principles and values governing public administration.

Ms Thusani Matshele Mulaudzi
Ms Mgweba asked the candidate to demonstrate her understanding of what the NDP stated on the minimisation of political influence in public administration.

Ms Mgweba asked what usually would be the causes of tension between the Head of Department (HoD) and the Ministry.

Ms Kibi said that the PSC developed a toolkit for recruitment and selection of personnel in 2007. The toolkit simplified the process at both national and provincial levels. Is the toolkit still relevant today and is it aligned with the NDP Vision 2030? She asked if the candidate would look at amending the toolkit to improve the recruitment and selection process, if appointed.

Ms Malomane asked the candidate's opinion if government should strive to make the appointment of senior managers more transparent to ensure that appointments are made purely based on competency and merit.

The Chairperson asked the candidate to demonstrate her understanding of the functions of the Public Service Commission as well as the constitutional principles and values governing public administration.

Mr Sibisi said the function of the PSC is to promote the constitutional principles and values governing public administration and to ensure personnel procedures adhere to those principles. How could the PSC reposition itself to make an impact on the public service?.

Ms Komane noted the candidate's presentation seemed to suggest that she did not find cadre deployment a troublesome issue as she believed it could address the injustices of the past. She also noted that the candidate criticised political interference in her presentation. Given these conflicting messages, she asked how the candidate would balance cadre deployment and corruption and maladministration as most corruption emanated from cadre deployment.

Ms Komane asked the candidate to identify the current weaknesses in the system and the solutions to those weaknesses.

Mr Schreiber asked why the Committee should select her over other more experienced candidates given her relative junior experience and absence of experience in provincial and national affairs.

Mr Schreiber questioned the candidate’s presentation that emphasised the inevitability of cadre deployment which went as far as saying that it was a right given by the Constitution. He read s197(3) of the Constitution which stated, " No employee of the public service may be favoured or prejudiced only because that person supports a particular political party or cause." He found it concerning that the candidate described the Office of Director-General as political office.

Ms Mpho Janet Digojane
Mr Schreiber noted the candidate’s presentation was critical about the design of the appointment system. He also noted her recent job experience with a political party. He asked the candidate to comment on the appropriateness of appointing people with a political background to the PSC given its oversight role over the public service.

Mr Schreiber asked for the candidate’s view on the practice of cadre deployment and the PSC’s role in combating cadre deployment.

Ms Komane asked if the system at the PSC was efficient in curbing cadre deployment, corruption and maladministration.

Ms Komane asked if the candidate agreed with government appointing senior managers on a contractual basis. What was the rationale for making contract appointments? What are the benefits or risks for making senior management appointments on a contractual basis?

Mr Sibisi expressed concern about computerised recruitment or e-recruitment which the candidate had emphasised in her presentation. How was it going to be rolled out in reality? He asked if those people living in rural areas with data challenges would be excluded and disadvantaged in the process.

Ms Malomane asked the candidate to explain how the PSC could play a meaningful oversight role and provide alternative mechanisms developed for the recruitment process.

Ms Kibi asked for the candidate's vision in transforming the PSC without compromising the Commission’s independence and impartiality. She asked how the independence of the Commission could be protected given that its officials are appointed in accordance with the Public Service Act.

Ms Mgweba asked the candidate how she would contribute to the PSC if appointed.

The Chairperson informed the Committee that Members would deliberate on the candidates who had availed themselves for interviews on Tuesday 22 February 2022.

The meeting was adjourned.