Meeting with SA Rugby and Provincial Rugby Presidents

PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON SPORT AND RECREATION
29 May 2006
MEETING WITH SA RUGBY AND PROVINCIAL RUGBY PRESIDENTS

Chairperson: Mr B Komphela (ANC)

Documents handed out:
Free State Rugby Union and Company Transformation Policy Document & Procedures Guide: Part 1, 2 & 3

SUMMARY
The meeting was attended by the President of SA Rugby, the CEO and his deputy, and the Presidents or their deputies from all fourteen provinces.  They were briefed on the constitutional mandate of the Committee to oversee sport.

Changes were happening in the sport as old attitudes softened.  The sport was now becoming a means of transforming society.  All provinces had now committed themselves to transformation and the Transformation Charter had been accepted.  Some of the provincial presidents briefed the Committee on the current status of transformation and development in their provinces.  Transformation needed to be an ongoing activity rather than a once-off event.

Members raised issues regarding player selections and the perception that too much responsibility was invested in the Springbok coach to the detriment of transformation.  Concern was expressed that young players seemed to drop off the scene after representing the country at youth level.  Strong expressions were made of the need to revive the sport at school and club level.  The need for local and provincial government to become involved was stressed.

Questions were also raised regarding the participation by women, particularly at leadership level.  The issues surrounding the Southern Spears franchise were also discussed, and this franchise had been the choice of the Committee but had not been discussed with SA Rugby.

MINUTES
The Chairperson welcomed the delegation from SA Rugby and the provincial presidents.  He congratulated Mr Hoskins on his election as President of SA Rugby and wished him well for the forthcoming year.  It was important to share and understand the vision and mission of SA Rugby.   The Committee wanted to understand policy issues and would share these with Rugby, and the Rugby officials could gain an understanding of the feelings of the members of the Committee.  He introduced the members present.

He clarified issues, in that if agreement was reached then there would be no arguing to the contrary afterwards.  A year previously a wrong impression had been created due to poor communications regarding the oversight role of the Committee and matters related to realignment.  Rugby had been called to attend a Committee meeting.  The previous day a delegation from Rugby met the Minister, and did not attend the Committee meeting.  He explained that the Constitution said that the National Assembly could hold the Executive accountable, and even the Minister was accountable to the Committee.  If the Committee called a meeting, then it was to gather information for the National Assembly.  The Committee could summon any person to provide information, and could be obliged to do so under oath if necessary. 

He recalled an incident with Swimming where they had not shown up for a scheduled meeting and had subsequently ignored a summons.  Such an action amounted to Contempt of Parliament.  Rugby was almost in this position.  The Minister had his own way of dealing with national federations, but the Committee called on them in terms of the Constitution.

He asked the President of SA Rugby to share their vision and direction in issues such as non-racialism and equity.  The Committee had enjoyed a pleasant relationship in the last year, and he hoped it would continue.  On a personal note, he said that he had found it difficult to associate himself with Rugby, especially given his background in the Free State.  He had been made to feel unwelcome at matches, but was now feeling part of the scene as attitudes had changed.  He felt that all could now support the sport.

He added that the Transformation Charter presented to the Committee earlier was a mind-blowing document, but wondered if there had been any dilution of the document since that presentation.  The Committee wanted to monitor the process, and transformation was a constitutional imperative.

Briefing by SA Rugby
Mr Oregan Hoskins introduced the provincial presidents present.  They were Mr Peter Hassard (President, KZN RU), Prof Jannie Ferreira (President, Golden Lions RU), Mr Harold Verster (President, Free State RU), Mr Dawie Groenewald (President, Griquas RU), Mr Johan Prinsloo (CEO, SA Rugby), Mr Mveleli Ncula (Deputy CEO, SA Rugby), Mr Aldworth Meyer (Acting President, Eastern Province Rugby and Southern Spears), Mr Jack Abrahams (President, Boland Rugby), Mr Elliot Memani (Deputy President, Griffons Rugby, their President being abroad with the team), Mr Sakhumzi Manakaza (Acting President, Border RFU), Mr Herman Abrahams (Deputy CEO, Western Province RU, standing in for Mr Toby Titus who was ill), Mr James Stoffberg (President, Leopards RU, also the Chairman of the Transformation Committee), Mr Charles van Staden (Deputy President, Blue Bulls RU, in place of Mr Fick), Mr Stag Cronje (President, South Western Districts), Mr Rautenbach (Falcons) and Mr Grobler (Mpumalanga).

Mr Hoskins replied that it was an honour and a privilege to be present.  Rugby was an important facet of society.  As a young person in the 1970’s, he had watched Rugby in Pietermaritzberg and had also not felt welcome as a coloured person.  Some things had not changed, and realities had to be faced.  He gave an unequivocal apology for the sort of behaviour experienced by the Chairperson.

He was ecstatic to report that after three months in office he was able to report a victory by the national Sevens team in the most recent tournament in Paris.  The Boks had beaten New Zealand and France on their way to the title.  Black players had played a prominent role in this victory.  This was exciting for the future.

In the past, Rugby had been an institution which had served to highlight divisions.  It could now be turned to promote unity in a new society which needed to be nurtured.  Rugby represented extreme attitudes, from the most racist to the most unified. 

The sport could be a nation builder and its leaders were showing genuine interest in transformation.  The Presidents’ Council had met on the Friday before the meeting, and all present had made the commitment on behalf of their individual provinces and SA Rugby to take the game forward.  The resulting document had not been taken lightly, and expert input had been received from all fourteen provinces.  The Transformation Charter was the culmination, and was reached after an expensive and time-consuming process.  All the Presidents present had signed the document.

Transformation was an important agenda item, and it was fitting that it could be shared with the Committee.  The practicalities of its implementation needed to be addressed.  Rugby was the first code to adopt a Transformation Charter and scorecard.  The Charter would be worthless if it was not implemented, and the scorecard would measure the process.  There were clearly defined targets, performance areas and measures.  The process was underway, and he believed in the integrity of the team assembled behind him.  The process must go all the way down to the lowest levels.

Discussion
The Chairperson replied that he felt inspired by what Mr Hoskins had said.  President Mbeki had said that South Africa was entering an era of hope.  All that had been said at the meeting translated into Mbeki’s vision. He had seen this new spirit in action at a tournament in Worcester.  He expressed his condolences to the President of the Griffons following the recent death of one of their members

Mr M Dikgacwi (ANC) said that Mr Hoskins’s statement had given him hope.  He had been President of SA Rugby for three months, but had been involved for some time before.  He said that the Transformation Charter had some fine words and had been some time in the making, but it would be useless if it was not implemented.  South Africa had been very patient with Rugby.

He said that after the announcement of the latest Springbok team, he had been astonished to see African players not being included, such as the Ndugane twins.  However, a player like “Os Snyman” had been recalled from retirement.  He found it strange that all the power of selection was given to the coach.  Jake White was supposed to account to SA Rugby for his selections and to follow instructions, but it seemed that nothing would happen to hold him to account.  He noted that African players had contributed to the Sevens team, but feared they would disappear.  Several players had been prominent also at Under 19 and Under 21 level, but were not heard of subsequently.

Mr Dikgacwi asked how the provinces had changed since 1992.  Most still fielded only two black players and most of those had been poached from the smaller unions.  He saw no signs of development in that.  The next SA Rugby President would say the same words, but no real action would occur.  Finally, he asked whether Mr Prinsloo was Managing Director or CEO.

Mr R Reid (ANC) said that one was either serious about transformation or not.  The SA Rugby President had been reported as saying that he trusted Jake White regarding transformation.  He had picked various players of colour but they had been given limited game time.  He felt that SA Rugby had abdicated its responsibilities to Mr White.  The coach should not select the squad, as there was a selection committee.  He also asked why the coach should make the squad announcement.  He felt that Mr White was too powerful.

He said that communities should be involved in the sport, but did not feel part of the structure.  He quoted the example of Riversdale.  There had only been one club there, but following cases of on-field racism the coloured players had broken away to form their own club.  He asked if the Transformation Charter would work.

Mr D Lee (DA) wanted to see the best team on the field.  All South Africans must get the chance to be the best, and all must have the chance of exposure.  They must only represent the country if they were given the chance and then proved themselves to be the best.  He asked if Os Snyman was a clone of Os du Randt and Andre Snyman.  He observed that the only Professor present represented a province that had performed poorly.

He said that he had been feted in the Free State but vilified in the Eastern Cape after he had made recommendations on the issue of the Spears.  It was difficult to explain what had happened.  SA Rugby had voted in favour of including the team, but the next day they were excluded.  Promises were not being carried through.  The Eastern Cape provinces’ administrations must be put in order.  The federations had a duty to run Rugby, and must do so well.  He was glad to see that one of the representatives was charged with club Rugby, as this aspect was the cornerstone of the game.  SA Rugby, together with the Departments of Sport and Recreation South Africa (SRSA) and of Education were responsible for the development of the game at school level.  Given his education background, he said that he no longer felt proud of school sport.

Mr E Saloojee (ANC) said that he had never had the chance to watch a Rugby match during the apartheid era, but now he found that this was one of the most exciting sports.  There were several outstanding black players.  Opportunities to improve the level of leadership would be beneficial if they were extended properly.  Society must become genuinely non-racial.  The transformation program needed leadership in the black community.  Non-racialism must become part of the ethos of the people.  Transformation must be taken seriously otherwise chaos would result.  He made a plea that all the serious priorities should be addressed.

Mr C Frolick (ANC) said that he had concerns with the level of corporate governance in SA Rugby, not just in the Eastern Cape.  SA Rugby must also get its house in order.  The Hefer Commission had highlighted some aspects, and Mr Frolick had been part of the negotiations between SA Rugby and the Spears.  Sport must pay serious attention to its corporate governance.  The rule of law must follow its course in the Eastern Cape Rugby circles.  Some revelations were also being uncovered on events during the tenure of the previous SA Rugby President.  A report was due on these revelations, and here too the rule of law must take its course.  However, he doubted that a single person could cause all these woes, and suspected that there might be inherent problems in SA Rugby’s structures.

He said that development programs had been in place for years.  It was commendable that all provinces had adopted the Transformation Charter, but Rugby would remain subservient to the law of the country.

He said the statistics were clear.  There was little respect for black players.  Seven players of colour had been chosen for the Mandela Cup match when South Africa had beaten Australia in 2005, and this showed that opportunities must be given.

He said that there were structural faults in the franchises, and top players were being injured due to not having any chance for rest.  Something was wrong with the contracts.  Unions with the resources would always call the shots.  SA Rugby must manage the national players, then they could dictate the terms under which they were used.  Ideal player management would never be achieved while the Unions called the shots.

Mr Hoskins replied that they took the issues seriously.  Some points related to the provinces, and some to the national body.  A few meetings had been held with Jake White.  It was important that he be seen to be working within a structured framework.  A concern had been conveyed that he seems to be acting on his own initiative, but the figures were impressive.  Before Mr White’s appointment, South Africa’s win record was 61 %.  Under his tenure the win ration has exceeded 70 %, a figure never achieved in the greatest days of Springbok Rugby.  He should be given his due.  After the 2003 World Cup, South Africa had been ranked sixth, but how now moved up to second place, a huge jump.  Regarding the Ndugane twins, Mr White had said at a recent meeting that he might have been mistaken in not selecting at least one of them.  Selection was an important issue, but could not be an administrative responsibility.

He said he would allow the provincial presidents to speak for themselves.  While he had been President of KwaZulu-Natal, it had not been easy to watch teams with just two players of colour. It was a difficult issue, as KZN had at one stage only had a single black club, but there were now 22 black teams.  Players who had been born and bred in KZN were now in the Sharks team.  Criticism should be leveled where appropriate, but credit must also be given where it was due.  South Africa could only be the best in the world in it had a winning and transformed team.  Some criticism was justified, but encouragement was also needed.

Prof Ferreira said the perceived lack of commitment to transformation was not a new issue.  This was the first time a document had been signed with a performance-based data sheet attached to it.  Not only in Rugby was transformation often seen as an event.  There was a syndrome where the two black players in the team were played on the wings where they could do the least damage.  Transformation was now being seen as a process.  The help of the Committee would be needed to help the game grow in all communities.

He said that there were some inherent conditions affecting the sport.  Rugby was not part of the culture in some areas.  A structure needed to be created.  The Golden Lions RU had created a club system to cater for the youth in those areas where the sport was not offered by the schools.  Physical Education was not happening in schools and the skills needed to play Rugby had to be learned outside the formal structures.  Generally he feared children were becoming couch potatoes.  He noted that backline skills seemed to be lacking in the South African Super 14 teams.  These skills needed to be cultivated early in a player’s career.  A holistic basis was needed for development.  This sort of basis was only seen in the former Model C schools, but facilities were needed.

He said that the Golden Lions had spent R1.1 million to develop Rugby.  They had received assistance from the Lottery Board, but local authorities also had to help.  Rugby seemed to be in limbo with SASCOC, as High Performance facilities were needed.

South Africa had won the Under 19 World Cup in 2005, but in 2006 they had only managed eighth place.  This showed how other countries had overtaken South Africa at this level.  Only one player in nine who represented the country at Under 19 level graduated to the Springbok team. 

A measuring system would now be available. The transformation process represented a paradigm shift.  He believed it was no longer merely a numbers game.  The pride of the nation was at stake.  Help was needed to provide opportunities, then performance-based systems could emerge.  He also pointed out that he was not a Professor of Rugby.

Mr Hoskins noted that the titles Managing Director and CEO were used interchangeably by SA Rugby.

Mr Frolick reminded the meeting of the question of player contracts.  He said that since 1999 the Committee had been driving the process of getting sport back into the schools.  This was being addressed by the school sports and mass participation programs.  A delegation had been seen every year, so transformation was not new.  He questioned why the paradigm shift referred to by Prof Ferreira was only being experienced now.  He was becoming impatient with developments in SA Rugby.

Mr B Solo (ANC) said that all should realise that not enough is being done regarding transformation.  He agreed that player potential should be identified early.  The sport needed to be played at school.  Physical Education was an important means of developing skills.  School, club and provincial Rugby should all be given their due place.  Teams were segregated, but more emphasis needed to be put on club Rugby.  A strategy of development was needed.  White clubs had all the resources.  The most Rugby was played in the Western Cape.  The role of the Watson brothers in non-racial Rugby should be remembered.  Priority should be given to those areas where Rugby was played across cultural lines.  Selection had been a problem for some time, and he quoted the example of Tommy Bedford who was an outstanding player but struggled to gain the selectors’ attention.  More engagement was needed at various levels.

Ms M Ramakaba-Lesiea (ANC) said that she had been a founder of a club during the 1960’s.  She was disappointed that no women were amongst the Rugby delegation.  She asked if the Transformation Charter addressed this issue.

Mr Dikgacwi returned to the selection issue.  He said there was a perception that money was involved, in that township players were not supposed to be earning big salaries.  He conceded that 22 black Springboks had been selected in recent times, but said that they needed to have a fair chance to spend time on the field.  It was made clear that Luke Watson and Schalk Brits would not be selected, and he asked if Watson was being punished because of his father’s commitment to non-racial Rugby.  These were the questions being asked by his constituents.

Mr Hoskins said that he was also amazed about Watson’s non-selection.  He was not sure that previous involvement in the struggle should be a key to special privileges.  In any event, Mr White did not agree that Watson was the best player currently in his position.

Mr Ncula said that the onus should be on issues.  The support SA Rugby had received from the PC was unprecedented.  Communications between the two bodies was good, and open lines existed between the two which enabled them to clear up issues.  It was co-incidental that this meeting co-incided with the SA Rugby meeting to adopt the Transformation Charter.  Quarterly reports would be compiled on the transformation process. 

There were six dimensions to the process.  One was to harness the views of others.  Another was to make Rugby accessible to the community at club and school level.  Rugby was one of nine federations identified by SRSA to receive benefits, and the Western Cape had been identified as one of the key provinces.  This was appreciated.  Money received from SA Rugby and SRSA had been allocated to support the South African team to compete in the women’s World Cup to be held in Canada during September.  Support from SRSA and the Lotteries Board had been crucial in the preparations for this event.

He said that the strategic plan would look into all aspects.  Lack of a strategic plan would lead to misunderstanding.  The Transformation Charter would affect the strategic plan, which was a guide to development strategy and plans.  The next step with the Transformation Charter would be to explain its implications to the MEC’s for sport in all nine provinces.  Regional and local government had to buy in to the plan, and to co-operate in its implementation.  The integrity of Rugby had been doubted in the past.

Mr Ncula said that there was a women’s representative in the management of all 14 provincial unions, and all had women’s teams.  The eight strongest provinces competed in a tournament similar to the Currie Cup, while the other six played in an annual tournament which was held over National Women’s Day.

Another of the dimensions to which he had referred was Rugby’s involvement in social responsibility programs.  Infrastructure and fields should be provided as a result of the relationships between provinces and local government.

The Chairperson expanded on Ms Ramakaba-Lesiea’s comments on the lack of female representation on the national executive of SA Rugby.  It was unimaginable that no woman had come to the fore as a provincial leader.  Transformation was about the willingness to give all people the chance to lead.  When the ANC had been negotiating at Kempton Park before the advent of the new government, it had agreed that unpopular decisions would need to be made.  The SA Rugby executive must reflect the demographic profile of the country.  Bold leadership was needed.  He recalled attending a meeting of the Cycling federation, where all the elected officials were white people.  Their Chairperson had said that this was democracy in practice, but Mr Komphela disagreed.  He said that in certain cases there was an argument for tampering with the democratic process.

Mr A Mlangeni (ANC) observed that Rugby was a new sport for women.  Their leadership would develop in the course of time.  The Chairperson agreed that the question of the introduction of women was new terrain.

Mr Prinsloo said that the latest performance of the Under 19 team was disappointing.  SA Rugby had made the decision to institute an Academy to address this problem.  The Green and Gold squad was formed to develop players from the age of sixteen.  This had taken away attention from the development of players at higher levels.  A presentation would be made to the SA Rugby Board.  The Academy would be in the Eastern Cape.  More information would be provided at a later date.

Mr Meyer said that an obligation had been made on 8 June 2005 to create the Southern Spears.  This decision was confirmed by the SA Rugby Board on 2 December, and an agreement had been signed in February 2006.  He then detailed some implications of now excluding the franchise from participation in the Super 14 and Currie Cup competitions.

The branding for the Spears had been done, and two major sponsors had been secured.  International Sports Clothing was the kit sponsor for the Western Force, the ACT Brumbies and three other unions.  Thousands of Rands’ worth of Spears kit was now gathering dust.  A cash sponsorship had also been withdrawn.  International embarrassment had resulted as a result of the reneging on the agreement.

Suite and chalet holders at the stadiums in the area were livid.  There had been an unprecedented buying spree of these facilities on the presumption of high-level competition, but there was now nowhere for them to go, and these persons felt that they had been victims of breach of contract.

A lot of money had been spent, and this was now all wasted.  The system had failed.  Spending on preparing the franchise had reached approximately R26 million, but no more money would be given.  The Spears debt was now R6 million.  He noted that the Western Force team had done their pre-match preparation in Port Elizabeth, and they had been the beneficiaries of generous funding from the the Australian government.

Mr Meyer asked how all agencies could help the Spears.  A new stadium had been planned based on the award of the Super 14 franchise and the 2010 World Cup, the cost of which would be between R600 and R700 thousand.  Sports tourism was also an issue.  Dr Ali Bacher had informed the SA Rugby Board on the impact on the other five franchises should they be relegated, but this impact study had not included the Spears.  He said there was still a lot of support on the ground for the Spears.

The Chairperson said that there had been no meeting with SA Rugby regarding the awarding of a franchise to the Eastern Cape.  The Spears franchise was the political choice of the PC.  There was a rich history of the game in the region, and there was great potential.  There had been no interaction between SA Rugby and the Committee, and a briefing was needed.  The Committee should meet for a thorough explanation, and should also meet with the MEC in the Eastern Cape.

Mr Frolick said that the Committee was well aware of the sporting situation in the Eastern Cape.  There existed specific challenges, and the Spears franchise was one of the issues.  This could not be sorted out by Rugby alone.  The price of the stadium was now R1 billion, and various events had been lined up to be staged there.  Viable products and entities had to be there to represent a worthwhile return on investment.  He could not pronounce on the viability of the stadium without interaction.

Mr Reid commented on the Watson issue.  This decision might well persuade him and Schalk Brits to pursue their Rugby careers overseas.

The Chairperson said that issues on particular players should not be raised.  It did not help discussing the issues of a player’s parentage.  He asked the Presidents of KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo and the Free State to brief the Committee on the situation in their provinces regarding transformation.  The issue of realignment was creating problems, but was about to be completed.  He stressed that in future only the language of the nine political provinces should be spoken.  This had already been discussed, and the issue must be part of the transformation process.

Mr van Staden said he was in an awkward position.  The Limpopo province should have its own union, but is currently the responsibility of the Blue Bulls Rugby Union which is based in northern Gauteng.  In 2001 a five-year development and transformation process had been launched.  The Blue Bulls could not undertake this task on its own, and had made approaches to the provincial governments of Gauteng and Limpopo.  The process was being duplicated.  Lotto had assisted with the development of facilities.  Three clubs had been established in Limpopo with fields and clubhouses. 

One of his concerns was the resurrection of Rugby at school level.  At present, there were some 2500 Under 7 players, of which only 470 were black.  There were 1200 primary school players (350 black) and 600 high school players (350 black).  Progress was slow, but the Blue Bulls were committed to transformation.  Resources and manpower were needed to achieve this.

Mr Hassard spoke about the situation in KwaZulu-Natal.  Regarding the schools, there were currently 18 predominantly coloured high schools playing Rugby, 119 black high schools and 38 Indian high schools for a total of 165.  At primary school level, the numbers were 28 coloured schools, 159 black schools and 34 Indian schools.

The provinces was divided into five sub-unions.  One development officer was allocated to each sub-union, but it was impossible for these people to cope with the amount of work required.  There were no funds to employ any more persons.  He thought that there should be five development officers in each sub-union.

Trials had been held at Under 13, Under 16 and Under 18 levels.  He noted that the former Model C schools were head-hunting promising players.  The junior teams were performing well.  A demographic analysis of the junior players showed there were 1840 coloured players, 11 560 blacks and 2040 Indians.

At club level, Mr Hassard said there were currently 51 white clubs.  There were 22 black clubs, which had 6083 members of which 2016 were active players.  51 new fields had been built at a cost or R18 millions.  The development budget for 2006 was R 3.5 million, which represented 35% of the amateur budget.  KZN could not afford more.

Mr Verster briefed the PC on developments in the Free State.  A scorecard was being used to measure the success of various initiatives.  He remarked that a sign of the spirit of transformation was that the notoriously conservative farmers league had asked to have Kennedy Tsimba as a guest speaker at the function due to his popularity.  Mr Verster said he was passionate about the game.  He said a lot had still to be done, especially regarding the supporter base.  At present 95% of the crowd at a match in Bloemfontein would be white.  He noted that the province was developing its own players.  At present there was little involvement of the black community, and it was mainly coloureds and whites who were playing.  He mentioned several examples of Free State players who had been poached by other provinces, but accepted that this was part of a professional sport.  He said that assistance was needed for fields and facilities.  They were trying to set money aside for this purpose.  He did not have the statistics to hand, but distributed a written report on transformation.

Mr Saloojee noted that the former Model C schools were providing 80 % of players for provincial cricket teams.  He wondered if this was not undermining efforts to bring previously disadvantaged individuals into the game.

Mr Mlangeni said he was impressed by the statistics presented by KZN, and said that other provinces should follow their lead.

Mr Solo commented on the issue of amateur players and poaching.  First world standards were applied in respect of the movement of players, but there were issues concerning the second economy.  A plan was needed for club Rugby, and this should be from the community.  He felt that there should be a fair adjusted stipend for all players to curtail player movement.  This idea could only be sustained by building Rugby at club and school level.

Mr Frolick said the Committee had visited KZN.  It was good to hear of the success story in that province.  The impact of changes in society had to be considered as it moved away from a skewed past.  Some youngsters were getting opportunities in terms of coaching and support.  There was a collective responsibility to foster Rugby in all disadvantaged areas, but he asked how the players could take a step up to the next level.  Federations often took a shotgun approach, and finding talent was often on a shot in the dark basis

Resources were channeled to existing projects, but new ground had to be broken.  He said that he had attended the Old Grey 150^th anniversary celebrations, and had been pleasantly surprised to see that the majority of players at the Rugby tournament were black.  There were other challenges, such as spreading opportunities to all areas.  He noted that 2010 would see an increase in the number of soccer players, and expressed concern that this could erode the bases of other sorts.

The Chairperson said that interaction would happen.  Mr Prinsloo was doing a good job, but club Rugby remained a major issue.  This was an important and powerful program, as without the club structure there would be no Rugby.  A step forward was needed, and SRSA’s school sports and Mass Participation programs would assist in this process.  Rugby needed to make contact with other players in the Mass Participation Program.

He said that interaction was needed with Mr Prinsloo and Mr Ncula.  There was a shared vision.  The Sharks were now presenting a good model.  He noted the activities in Umlazi, and by contrast concluded that other provinces were afraid to go into the poorest areas.  Talent could be allowed to disappear because of this.

Government wanted to see the will to make progress.  It would create basic facilities through the IDP’s of municipalities.  Facilities should not be imposed on communities where they were not wanted.  Where stadiums were to be built for the 2010 World Cup, these could not be for football only.  These had to be legacy projects.

He mentioned the heritage games, which were traditional tournaments.  He said that it was wrong that the participating children had to pay to take part especially as they were accommodated in primitive conditions, but it was good to recruit these children from the poorest areas.

Mr Solo affirmed that local authorities had a vital role to play in catering for facilities.  The PC must meet with the PC for local government to address this.

The Chairperson said that in North West concurrent powers were applied in different municipalities.  The PC would conduct visits to view the processes in action.  He then told the meeting that party or organisational discipline should apply.  If decisions were taken in closed door meetings, these decisions could not be relegated by being openly criticised by members of that meeting.  One spokesman should be appointed to make all comments resulting from the meeting.

Mr Hoskins said that the Committee’s views were appreciated.  It was important that views were reciprocated.

The meeting was adjourned.