Hon members, the proceedings will initially take the form of a question-and-answer session. I shall put each Vote in respect of which adjustments have been made in turn, whereupon members will have the opportunity to pose questions to the relevant Ministers in respect of these adjustments. Each party has been allocated a global time for all votes. Once a party's time has expired, they will not be allowed to put further questions.
Hon members should please press the "to talk" button - I hope they are working - if they wish to ask questions. Hon members should please wait until I recognise them before they put their questions.
Vote No 1 - Presidency - put.
Are there any questions?
Hon Deputy Speaker, the Presidency's appropriation process is severely undermined by the absence of a portfolio committee to oversee its activities as well as the absence of the President today. As a result, Parliament is denied the opportunity to properly interrogate the performance and activities of the Presidency, which has a significant impact on its ability to make an informed appraisal of this Budget.
Minister, on what grounds has the National Youth Development Agency been granted an additional R29 million, given that in the last financial year it failed to meet two thirds of its targets while still pouring R11 million of state funds into salaries for members of its operations executive committee?
How much of the additional R17 million of funds allocated to support services to the Presidency has been earmarked for the spousal support office?
Why has the state-owned enterprises review committee been allocated such a sizeable budget of R10 million, which is in fact equivalent to virtually half of the budget of the entire National Planning Commission?
Lastly, what are the details of the Department of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation's expanded mandate for which an additional R20 million has been allocated?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY - PERFORMANCE MONITORING, EVALUATION AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Deputy Speaker, in answer to the first question, the R29 million to the NYDA is meant as seed funding for an international conference which the NYDA will be hosting from 13 to 21 December this year. [Interjections.] That amount of money is meant to assist in hosting a conference which will bring together young people from more than 153 countries to South Africa to deliberate on youth matters, the resolutions of which will be passed on to various multilateral institutions internationally to assist in the development of the youth worldwide.
In reply to the second question, with regard to the additional budget to the Presidency, as you know, the Presidency has various functions to perform. Some of them have been expanded, as you said. This money is meant to assist in the performance of the functions of both the President and Deputy President and the running of the administration of the Presidency.
On the question of the Department of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation, the expanded mandate of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation includes, among other things, the capacity for us to be able to deal with the municipalities, provincial governments and other state entities, because in the initial Budget we had only focused on setting up capacity at the head office to deal with issues relating to the national departments alone. Thank you.
Deputy Speaker, after South Africans voted against sanctions against Iran during its last term of office on the UN Security Council, the Deputy Minister of International Relations and Co-operation was quoted as having said that, "If South Africa had understood the rules better, then they would have voted in support of the sanctions against Iran." As the Presidency oversees all government departments, how would the adjusted budget for the Presidency help to bring about a better understanding of the UN protocols to ensure that we do not make other embarrassing mistakes at the UN Security Council?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY - Performance Monitoring and Evaluation, as well as Administration in the Presidency: Deputy Speaker, obviously I think the question does not really relate to the adjustment estimates, but to policy issues for the operations of our international relations department and its policies. To that extent, I believe that the Department of International Relations and Co-operation will be able to address those issues, not necessarily in the context of the adjustment estimates of the Presidency. [Applause.]
Deputy Speaker, the current Cabinet is the biggest we have had since the advent of our democracy. At the beginning of this year, it was fully catered for. We need some clarity on what made it necessary for the Presidency to require yet another R84 million solely for the Presidency, at a time when we are running short of funds and communities are up in arms because of a lack of delivery, and when the Minister of Finance actually advised that there was a need to employ at the point of service delivery. What is the meaning of this? Why was it necessary to have this R84 million - to employ people that walk the grounds of this Parliament here?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY - PERFORMANCE MONITORING, EVALUATION AND ADMINISTRATION: Deputy Speaker, the R84 million, which is an addition to the budget of the Presidency, is an accumulation of various items. However, as we have said, the capacity of the Presidency has got nothing to do with the appointment of the Cabinet. It has to do with the functions of the Presidency itself.
Therefore, the only addition which would probably relate to the changed Cabinet would be the addition of the Deputy Minister in the Office of the President and that would be catered for within the current Budget without having to increase it, as we know that the changes took place after the Budget had been tabled in Parliament.
Madam Deputy Speaker, I did not hear the hon Minister responding to my question about how much of the R17 million allocated to support services would be earmarked for spousal support.
I really look forward to seeing the response of the 3 million unemployed young South Africans when they hear we are going to spend R29 million on a conference.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY - PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Deputy Speaker, I do not know the exact amount allocated to that item, but what I do know for sure is that the amount that has been allocated to the Presidency is in addition to the budget that we had at the beginning of the year. As I said, the increasing capacity of the Presidency requires that we have that amount of money available to be able to expand on the services that we provide for the functioning of the office. [Applause.]
Deputy Speaker, I would like to appeal to the Minister that if he does not know what the R84 million is for, it is better to say so, so that we can follow up on the matter later on. It is important to know what the R84 million is for. If it is not for Ministers, what is it for? [Applause.]
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY - PERFORMANCE MONITORING, EVALUATION AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Deputy Speaker, the hon member's question was in regard to our expanding the Cabinet. My understanding is that this is related to the expansion of the Cabinet. I am responding to that question in that the costs of the Cabinet are borne by the various departments.
In respect of the Office of the Presidency, this only pertains to the appointment of one Deputy Minister which I said would be catered for within the context of the money that we have, because the changes took place after the Budget had been tabled. So, there is no money in that Budget which relates to the expansion of the Cabinet. [Applause.]
Thank you, Minister. Are there other hon members who would like to ask questions on this Vote? Can we move to the next Vote?
Vote No 2 - Parliament - put.
Vote No 3 - Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs - put.
Madam Deputy Speaker and Minister, contained in this Budget is an amount of R390 million described as "equitable share transfer". If this means paying money to municipalities that are wasting it, then we cannot support this Budget. Minister, we need a comprehensive description of how it is intended that this money be spent and which municipalities will be the beneficiaries.
Madam Deputy Speaker, last year some municipalities could not account for the monies given to them. Now, we took a decision with the National Treasury that we could not continue giving those municipalities the tranches of money which we always gave them.
Now, in that respect, until we solve or deal with their problems, we and National Treasury will assist those municipalities to do their work. We have done that and have agreed that the money will be rolled over. Those municipalities are now getting the money that belonged to them for which they could not previously account. This is what is going to happen.
Now, in terms of monitoring the expenditure, we have put systems in place. We have developed monitoring mechanisms to enable us to see what is happening. We believe that those municipalities won't repeat what happened. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. [Applause.]
Madam Deputy Speaker, the underexpenditure of the municipal infrastructure grants, which has resulted in rollovers or proposed rollovers for the next Budget, raises a number of concerns. How does the Minister intend to resolve this problem? How will the proposed special purpose vehicle improve the level of service delivery on the ground - which the department cannot do currently - and will this not constitute a further bloating of bureaucracy and an infringement of the functions of the district councils and other municipal structures? Thank you.
Madam Deputy Speaker, the first thing that you must talk about, bab' uMawawa, is that in many municipalities there are no technical people, particularly engineers. [Interjections.]
Now we have identified the problems that are being experienced. What has happened is that we have agreed that, for expenditure to happen, we have to support and assist municipalities in the deployment of engineers so that things can get done. That is the first thing.
The second thing that we are clear about is that it will take a long time for some municipalities to develop capacity. That is why we want to assist at a national level through the establishment of a special purpose vehicle to deliver service at that level. We know that it is a short-term measure. In the long term, those municipalities must acquire the capacity to do their work.
We believe that this view has been canvassed with the municipalities and with provinces. There is no interference whatsoever in that.
The functions and tasks of district municipalities include water and sanitation. District municipalities have never had the capacity to assist municipalities on the ground because the things that are being done there are not their functions. Therefore, this area that you are talking about is where we saw a gap. We think that we must assist so that there is not talk about underexpenditure of the municipal infrastructure grant all the time. Thank you.
Deputy Speaker, are these buttons not working, because I did press them repeatedly? They show that they are working. Do they not show on your side?
We will attend to that.
Oh, all right. Deputy Speaker, may I ask the Minister about an amount here of R214 million for flood relief, which is unforeseen and unavoidable expenditure? Could I ask the Minister how much of that has already been spent this year, and what measures have been put in place to ensure that it is all spent this year and does not become a rollover next year? Thank you.
Madam Deputy Speaker, let me start by saying that the bulk of the money is, in fact, going to the Western Cape, to municipalities under the DA. [Interjections.]
They have done the planning; they are clear on who must be paid; they are clear who to give support to. This is because when it comes to disaster management, we give money after the fact; after the work has already been done to deal with the issues. We come later. It is something which we believe must be changed and which we are discussing with Treasury.
When these disasters happen, municipalities must be there on the ground to assist. It means then that they will be able to pay people who are owed to ensure that the money goes to them. There is no way that the money cannot be spent, because it has been spent already. Thank you.
Madam Deputy Speaker, may I follow up? Thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker, I am intrigued to hear that the bulk of this money is for the Western Cape, because this delightful book I am reading here mentions the repair of roads and infrastructure damaged by floods in the KwaZulu-Natal province, so perhaps the Minister could also comment on the position regarding KZN. Thank you. [Laughter.]
Madam Deputy Speaker, well, we know that baba Smith comes from KwaZulu-Natal. Of course, I referred to the bulk of the money, but money is also going to KwaZulu-Natal to deal with the issues.
Now, regarding the expenditure to which you have referred, all these provinces are going to spend the money. If you look at it, they wanted more money than we had. It is clear then that those monies are going to go to people who need them, and ensure that they are supported.
We have developed a mechanism ourselves to ensure that the money does what it is supposed to do, and what it was requested for. That is what will happen. Thank you.
Vote No 4 - Home Affairs - put.
Vote No 5 - International Relations and Co-operation - put.
Vote No 6 - Public Works - put.
Vote No 7 - Women, Children and People with Disabilities - put.
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Minister, what turnaround strategy do you plan to implement to justify the increase in funding in a Ministry that has been dysfunctional from the outset? Could the lumping together of the vulnerable groups be reconsidered, as many within the three groups find this grouping objectionable? Paying special attention to the varying needs might also ensure greater efficiency. I would like to know what your view is on how we can make this Ministry really relevant and meaningful in order to justify its creation. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: Madam Deputy Speaker, we are busy looking at the structure and at how we can capacitate the Ministry. Already, we have a director-general in the department and a chief financial officer ... [Interjections.] This will assist us in ensuring that we put systems in place in the department, which will see to it that we cut costs on travel and make sure that the money goes where it is supposed to go.
We have already had a strategic session, and we will be coming out with our strategic plan. Since Monday or Tuesday, we have been dealing with that, and I will come to the portfolio committee to brief them on our strategic plan. I believe, also, that we will boost our communications unit to ensure that the work of the department is transparent and that Parliament and the nation are aware of the programmes and plans of this department.
I know that there have been questions about whether or not we need the department. The women of South Africa have said they need this department. [Interjections.] [Applause.] All the other sectors - people with disabilities, children's groups, the children's rights structures - say that they need this department. In the past two weeks we have been consulting with our stakeholders, with national women's groups, with children's welfare and children's rights groups, and with people with disabilities, and we will come up with a turnaround strategy in which they have participated. We have committed ourselves to only doing things about them, with them. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Vote No 8 - Government Communication and Information System - put.
Vote No 9 - National Treasury - put.
Vote No 10 - Public Enterprises - put.
Hon Deputy Speaker and hon Minister, this unforeseeable R181-million transfer to Denel is just another example of where government has had to bail out a public enterprise. Minister, my question is: How much more money has to be paid to Denel as a result of government again standing surety with taxpayer's money for Denel Saab Aerostructures' indemnity agreement? I thank you.
In terms of the Denel Saab Aerostructures indemnity agreement, five claims have been submitted to date, three of which have been paid. Correctly, the outstanding amount is R181 million, which is catered for in the Budget. There was a total indemnity amount of R1,6 billion, and the balance available under the indemnity agreement is just over R748 million. Thank you. [Applause.]
Vote No 11 - Public Service and Administration - put. Vote No 12 - Statistics South Africa - put.
Vote No 13 - Arts and Culture - put.
Deputy Speaker, an amount of R18,625 million has been rolled over for investment in culture projects. These projects were supposed to promote job creation for poor communities. However, no new projects are supported in 2010-11 due to the fact that no advertisements for new applications have been published. What are the roll-over funds going to be used for, and what mechanisms has the Minister put in place to prevent another report of nondelivery in this important programme?
Minister ... ? Is she here? [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker ...
Hon members, I am sure you want to hear the response. [Interjections.] Hon Minister, you may respond.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: In my former life, hon members, I was in this department and I know that there was an investigation that was commissioned on investing in culture and other projects. There were a number of ghost projects in that department. The investigations pointed out that a number of officials, both nationally and provincially, were involved. They were suspended, hearings were conducted, and they were dismissed.
There was a moratorium that was put in place to ensure that the money didn't go to those ghost projects, which moratorium was lifted early this year. Those projects that had applied and the new projects will receive funding going forward. The funds were stopped to ensure that we cleared up all the projects and made sure that the money would go to the rightful beneficiaries.
According to the investigations, there was money that was not used for the intended beneficiaries. Some of the money was used to buy cars, engines and furniture for project co-ordinators, and not spent on the ordinary rural women and communities that the money was intended for. After that has been cleared up, the money will go to the rightful owners. Thank you. [Applause.]
Hon Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: May I ask why the Minister of Arts and Culture is not in the House to reply to questions on this additional budget.
Hon member, to whom are you directing your question?
I am directing it to the Speaker. If somebody from the government could reply, I think that would suit us. [Interjections.]
No, I'm sure the Speaker will respond once he knows. If there are no more questions for Vote No 13, may I put Vote No 14 - Basic Education? Are there any questions?
Vote No 14 - Basic Education - put.
Madam Deputy Speaker, this is just a follow-up to the point of order from the hon Mulder ... [Interjections.]
No, no, no. We have already moved on. [Interjections.]
Really, it is unacceptable that the House is not given explanations as to why Ministers aren't present. [Interjections.]
Hon Ellis, I have moved on. I don't have a letter from the Minister and therefore I cannot respond on his behalf. [Interjections.]
Madam Deputy Speaker, but there is another point here ... [Interjections.]
Hon Ellis, could you sit down? I have moved from that point. I have put Vote No 14.
Madam Deputy Speaker, I am sorry, on a point of order: It is not possible just to move away from something like that. The question has been asked as to why the Minister is not available. Are the other Ministers not available? That is a totally legitimate question in this House, and you can't just move away from it.
The question is noted, and it will be answered once we know why the Minister is not here, which is what I said before. Are there any questions on Vote No 14?
Deputy Speaker, we would like to know why there has been a downward adjustment in Programme 3 by R11 million when we have such a high teaching skills and human resource shortage in our schools, particularly considering the fact that the department's annual report indicated that the department had not yet rolled out the teacher recruitment strategy to provinces? I thank you.
The Minister of Basic Education is not here either. [Interjections.]
I am obviously not the Minister of Basic Education, but I have been asked to stand in for the Minister of Basic Education to respond to this question. [Applause.] She was not able to be here because she is unwell. The question that has been asked about the rollover has also been discussed in the portfolio committee meeting.
We do know that the rollover arose from the fact that there has not been completion of appointment of those educators. However, that money was also needed in other very important programmes in the meantime. As we know, education is indeed a priority in this country. The money that could not be used for salaries, which was needed for other areas of service delivery, was then reallocated to those functions.
That is the response we have for now. This is not because educators are unimportant, but because there were other programmes that the money was rolled over to. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Madam Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order: This issue of the absence of Ministers is a matter that must be paid attention to. We want to place it on record, because Ministers are appointed and they are the executive and they must respond to the nation. We want that. [Applause.]
Deputy Speaker, from the information I have been given, both the Minister and the Deputy Minister of Arts and Culture are abroad.
Thank you very much, Minister. I am just hoping ... Hon members, I said earlier that I am sitting here not knowing really. The questions or the concerns have been raised and noted. We will respond to them when we know the information. The first piece of information has come in now, and earlier there was other information. Even if there is another Minister that is not here, as I said earlier I note the concern. We will respond when we know why they are not here. It must be something that we would understand. [Interjections.]
Madam Deputy Speaker, I think it needs to be recorded that the one Minister stood up and said that the Minister of Basic Education was ill; and the other Minister stood up and said the hon Minister was overseas. [Interjections.] That in itself is interesting. But, Madam Deputy Speaker, the most important point is that we in the opposition benches ... [Interjections.]
There is a point of order. Could you sit down, Mr Ellis?
Deputy Speaker, the hon member must not waste our time. The Minister responded to Arts and Culture, and not to Basic Education. He heard what he said, but he wants to waste our time. Please, we don't have the time. [Interjections.]
Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to apologise to the hon Mthethwa severely and deeply for having wasted his time. But there is another point that does need to be made this afternoon, and that is that we as opposition parties should be given the courtesy to know when Ministers are not coming to this House. It would make a massive difference in terms of our planning. It is not good enough to stand up and say that Ministers are overseas or sick or anything like that. We need to know this information up front.
Thank you, hon Ellis.
Vote No 15 - Health - put.
Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Hon Minister, an additional R100 million has been allocated to Programme 2 for HIV and Aids, resulting in 90% of this programme's funding now being allocated to HIV and Aids. While the DA welcomes additional funding, we are concerned about what the Auditor- General raised when he said that as far as this grant was concerned, only 53% of the targets set for the 2009-10 financial year were achieved, although 99% of the grant was actually spent, resulting in a huge disjuncture between the money spent and targets achieved. What steps does the Minister intend taking to ensure that the money allocated will be more effectively and efficiently spent this year in order to improve on the low level of targets being met?
Thank you very much, hon Deputy Speaker, and thanks for the question, hon member. First and foremost, I would like to indicate that the Minister is overseas. [Interjections.] But the Acting Minister is here, and I support the Acting Minister of Health. Indeed, it is important to note that there are measures that the Ministry has put in place to ensure that the areas of budget underexpenditure are also dealt with. That issue that has been raised has also been catered for in this budget adjustment, including building the capacity of management. We will be reporting in detail on some of those measures that have been taken. Thank you. [Applause.]
Speaker, my question is in Afrikaans.
Gegewe die substandaard toestand van sommige staatshospitale en die substandaard dienslewering wat daar plaasvind, hoe sal die Minister verseker dat die aangepaste begroting effektief gebruik word om die standaarde te herstel? (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Given the substandard condition of some of the government hospitals and the substandard service delivery taking place there, how will the Minister ensure the effective allocation of the adjustments appropriation so as to restore the standards?]
Deputy Minister, did you get the question?
Thank you very much. My understanding is that the hon member was asking about the rehabilitation of infrastructure. Am I correct, member, through you, hon Deputy Speaker?
Was that the question?
The question was about standards in state hospitals, the substandard delivery that's happening at the moment and how the Minister will use the budget to rectify the situation. Thank you.
Thank you very much. Actually, we are in the process of establishing an office of norms and standards and compliance for the whole country. We are aware that there are provinces that have the accreditation processes for the various facilities, and nationally we are quite advanced with our plans to ensure that there is a dedicated office that will enforce and certify facilities for compliance with national norms and standards. This matter is already on the table of the Cabinet committees and the House will be informed of further developments in this regard.
You would recall that the introduction of the National Health Insurance system will also require not only a strong health care system with a referral that is effective, but also quality health services so that the public can have confidence in our health system. So there are measures in place to deal with that. Thank you. [Applause.]
Madam Deputy Speaker, could the Deputy Minister explain to this House why it has taken over seven years to establish the Office of Standards Compliance that is stipulated in the National Health Act of 2003. Thank you.
Through you, hon Deputy Speaker, as I said earlier, provinces had established a number of processes to accredit facilities for quality and at the national level there has been a process of looking at these various pilots and also engaging with the private sector to ensure that the national office of norms and standards is not only for the public sector, but also for the private sector. So that consultative process has matured and we have arrived at a point where this office will certify both public and private hospitals in the best interests of South Africans. Thank you. [Applause.]
Vote No 16 - Higher Education and Training - put.
Madam Deputy Speaker, the increase in administration costs amounts to almost 30%. Given government's commitment to ensuring a more efficient administration, with a focus on placing more resources at the coalface of service delivery in education rather than in the back offices, why is the substantial increase in administration costs necessary?
Deputy Speaker, I would briefly just like to remind the hon member about the core function of the Department of Higher Education and Training, which aims to promote and ensure access to higher and vocational education and skills development training opportunities, which will, in turn, contribute towards improving the quality of life of all citizens.
With regard to the approved rollovers, which have gone through the portfolio committee and have been discussed with Treasury, the rollovers really speak to the shortfalls from the establishment of the new department and for the compensation of examiners and moderators, as well as the establishment of the Quality Council for Trades and Occupations. [Applause.]
Madam Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: The answer that we just received has no relevance to the question that was asked at all. The hon Mthethwa stands up and says I am wasting Parliament's time. Quite frankly, it is these Ministers who are not here who are wasting our time. This is unforgivable. [Applause.]
Madam Deputy Speaker, if I may rise on a point of order: Can't we be given the courtesy of a reason why the Minister of Higher Education and Training is not here; just that? [Applause.]
Madam Deputy Speaker, maybe I should have started off by apologising for my Minister. He is on an official trip abroad. [Interjections.]
Vote No 17 - Labour - put.
Could I ask all Ministers, whoever is in an acting capacity, to give an apology for a Minister so that we can save time?
Minister, welcome to your department. I am glad that you are not sick abroad. [Laughter.] Unfortunately, you have also been given a department with no director-general and a cloud hanging over the previous director-general, but I will focus my questions on service delivery.
I want to know, Minister, about service delivery, because your department is one of those that, unfortunately, consumes a lot of money on administration that should be spent on service delivery. If you check the record for the past year, all the virements, except for one in your department, have taken money from service delivery and given it to administration. I want to know how this additional budget that has been given to Labour remedies the information technology system that is still not functional and the shortcomings of the Compensation Fund which is still not working. That IT system cost the public R1,9 billion, after a budget of R1,2 billion, and it is still not working. The Compensation Fund, after a lot of effort, is also still not delivering. Thank you.
Deputy Speaker, in terms of the adjustments that are before this House, there is no allocation in terms of the IT system. The portfolio committee was briefed on what was happening regarding that particular programme, in terms of which the department said they were reviewing the contract with Siemens in particular.
Secondly, in terms of the virements that are in our budget, they are based on the commitments that were made previously, particularly in terms of the inspection and enforcement services. The R2,571 million has been received from Programme 1, following the shift of the office of the deputy director- general to the general inspection and enforcement services. Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker. [Applause.]
Deputy Speaker, government department employment statistics indicate the following: On a semi-skilled level, whites and Indians are underrepresented at 4,8% and 2,3% when compared to the employee assistance programme of 12,2% and 3% respectively, and Africans at 80,9% and coloureds at 11,9% are overrepresented at this level; and on an unskilled level whites are at 1,1% and Indians are at 1,2% and are underrepresented when compared to Africans and coloureds, who are overrepresented at 85,1% and 12,5% respectively. How will the Minister ensure that the budget portion towards compliance, monitoring and enforcement will be used effectively to rectify these imbalances?
Deputy Speaker, I am not going to respond to the first question, because the hon member knows the processes of this House - if you want to ask a question in this particular House. With regard to what the department is going to do in terms of service delivery, it is in the strategic planning of the department which the portfolio committee was briefed about. Thank you. [Applause.]
Sekela Somlomo, ngiyathokoza kakhulu, kunemali lapha mhlonishwa eyizigidi eyi-R10,5 yezimpahla nezinsiza efakiwe kodwa yase iyancishiswa lapha kubasebenzi. Ezinsizeni zokwenza uphenyo nokuqinisa umthetho kanti yilapho kufanele kube khona abasebenzi. Kwenzeke kanjani lokho ngoba kukhona amafemu adla izimali zabantu ngokungafanele?
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZABASEBENZI: Ubaba mhlonishwa uNdlovu, angiyazi lemali akhuluma ngayo ngoba uma sikhuluma ngokulinganisela sikhuluma ngezigidi ezingama-R28 ezifakelwe iKhomishana Yokubuyisana Nokulamula [i-CCMA] ukuze ibhekane namacala aphambu kwayo njengoba kunezidingo.
Okwesibili, ukulinganisela okuyizigidi eziyi-R19 ezabelwe ukukhutshulelwa amaholo abasebenzi ngesivumelwano okwafinyelelwa kuso, ngephesenti lokukhuphula kanye nesibonelelo zezindlu Ngiyabonga Sekela Somlomo. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Mr V B NDLOVU: Madam Deputy Speaker, I am very delighted because an amount of R10,5 million has been granted for facilities, but it is not enough to appoint investigators to do investigations to strengthen law enforcement. How did that happen as there are factories that are unlawfully taking people's money?
I do not know where hon Ndlovu got the amount he is talking about from, because we are talking about the estimation of R28 million which is allocated to the Commission for Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration, CCMA, so that it can address pending cases in order to fulfil its mandate.
The second one is the estimation of R19 million that is allocated for the increment of workers' salaries as per the agreement that was reached - a percentage of increment and housing allowance. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.]
Vote No 18 - Social Development - put.
Vote No 19 - Sport and Recreation South Africa - put.
Vote No 20 - Correctional Services - put.
Deputy Speaker, a total of R236,2 million budgeted for the compensation of employees is not being spent and represents savings, if they can be so called, from unfilled vacant posts. Many of these posts are in the crucial programmes of development and social reintegration.
Could the Minister explain what she is doing to attract and retain skilled staff so that the department can deliver on its core mandate of rehabilitating offenders? In the portfolio committee only this morning, we heard from the inspecting judge that in many correctional centres there are no rehabilitation programmes that can be rolled out because there are no educationalists, no skills training and, in many cases, no adequate care. Thank you.
Hon Selfe, with regard to what we are doing to fill vacancies, I thought you were aware that we have just embarked on a process of identifying critical vacancies that need to be filled. Not only have we identified them, I am sure that you are aware that in the past two weeks we have actually advertised 300 posts in the first batch. The second batch was for 450 vacancies. So, we are doing something about this, and I thought you were aware of that. Thank you.
Vote No 21 - Defence and Military Veterans - put.
Deputy Speaker, the Defence Force, especially the Air Force, is in deep trouble. At current funding levels, the Gripen advanced light fighter system, which cost billions of rand, cannot be fully implemented. According to a briefing by the Air Force, the intention at this stage is to fly the Gripens at a minimum to maintain system integrity and to maintain competencies only.
Rather than allocating more money within the existing Defence budget to the Gripen system, the Minister appears to be allocating R971 million less to the Gripen system. In light of this, would the hon Minister explain whether she has a plan to ensure that the Gripen system is fully implemented and, if indeed the Minister does have a plan, whether she would be prepared to share the details of that plan? Thank you.
Deputy Speaker, the details of how we intend to ensure maximum use of the Gripens were shared with the portfolio committee on my behalf and the member is fully aware of what we want to do.
I would like to indicate that yes, indeed, we have serious problems with funding of the Air Force. This is nothing new. We have said it over and over again; at every Budget Vote we have had the occasion to express our concern around this matter.
We had requested an amount of R325 million. Unfortunately, because of the situation that the country finds itself in, the request was turned down. I am sorry - it was R322 million that had been requested and refused by National Treasury. What we have done is ... [Interjections.] I am sorry, by Cabinet. My sincerest apologies - I can't go wrong with you: I need a lot of money. [Laughter.] The Minister of the National Treasury has just corrected me; it was not Treasury that turned it down, but Cabinet. Please correct that for Hansard purposes. I was not party to the decision.
However, what we have done is try to use the virement method, and we are very cognisant of the fact that the Minister has insisted that it should not be beyond 8% to make sure that we can have the Gripens fully functional.
In fact, you are putting this in the wrong context, because this year alone we have flown the Gripens more times than we had allocated for them - we were present at the ceremonies of the Soccer World Cup and therefore utilised all the space and time for the flights that were available. So, for this year, we are quite comfortable with the usage of the Gripens. We bought those Gripens because we needed them. We will therefore make sure that they are fully funded. Thank you. [Applause.]
Are there any other questions? No.
Vote No 22 - Independent Complaints Directorate - put.
Jammer, Adjunkspeaker, maar ek dink ons moet maar die vraag vra. U het te vinnig gepraat. Ek wil aan die agb Minister die volgende punt maak: Ek dink nie dit is net die Lugmag wat in die moeilikheid is as gevolg van te min fondse nie. Die hele SA Nasionale Weermag het 'n probleem.
My vraag is, agb Adjunkspeaker, en ek vra dit nie aan die agb Minister van Verdediging nie en Militre Veterane - ek vra dit aan die agb Minister van Finansies: Wat gaan die Kabinet doen om te verseker dat ons nog 'n professionele Weermag bly? Daar word hopeloos te min begroot. Dit is 'n wreldstandaard dat ons minstens 2% van die bruto binnelandse produk nodig het om te kan oorleef. Ons is nou op 1,3%. Wat gaan die agb Minister van Finansies daaromtrent doen? Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Mr P J GROENEWALD: I am sorry, Deputy Speaker, but I think I have to ask the question. You spoke too quickly. I want to raise the following point to the hon Minister: I think that the Air Force is not the only entity suffering due to a lack of funds. The whole SA National Defence Force is suffering.
My question, hon Deputy Speaker, and I am not asking it of the hon Minister of Defence and Military Veterans, but of the hon Minister of Finance: What is Cabinet going to do to ensure that we remain a professional Defence Force? Large-scale underbudgeting is taking place. According to the world standard, at least 2% of the gross domestic product should be allocated to the Defence Force. We are currently allocating 1,3%. What is the hon Minister of Finance going to do about this? Thank you.]
Deputy Speaker, I am not sure whether that question is in line with the Rules; we are here to discuss adjustments appropriations. But as a generous gesture to you, we will have to, as part of the overall balancing act, balance all of the requirements of this country. Of course, everyone is able to put forward a very persuasive argument about why they should get more than somebody else, but as you well know - and you have been around for a long time, hon member - life is about balancing different priorities and trying to get to where we want to get to. So, that objective all of us agree with, but let's see how we can get there. Thank you.
Vote No 23 - Justice and Constitutional Development - put.
Vote No 24 - Police - put.
Deputy Speaker, at the risk of wasting more of the Minister's valuable time, in light of the fact that in relation to the massive SA Police Service budget and considering that the Minister has been disinclined to provide answers to the DA's questions regarding the expenditure of taxpayers' money, for example the Police Day party in Bloemfontein, we are concerned that money is being spent in areas that are not specifically targeting the fight against crime.
The Police Ministry is one of the leaders on the DA's wasteful expenditure monitor, having spent R7,1 million on bling, ultra-luxury vehicles and five- star hotels, for example, that you stayed in, sir. Today we need a personal assurance from the Minister that the additional funds approved for this Vote will be spent to boost the security of our citizens, and not on parties, trips and luxuries. [Applause.]
Was that your question?
Madam Deputy Speaker, the hon member has exposed her ignorance regarding the budget. [Interjections.] There is no single question she has asked because she can't ask any. There is nothing to ask. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Vote No 25 - Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries - put.
Hon Deputy Speaker, I wanted to put a question to our Minister, but I see she is not present, neither is her Deputy, nor the chairman of the portfolio committee. So, I think I will have my question stand over. Thank you.
Vote No 26 - Communications - put.
Deputy Speaker, I'm very happy to see that at least the Minister of Communications is in the House today. Through you, Madam Deputy Speaker, could we ask the Minister of Communications the following. We are six months into the new financial year and only 26% of the budget of the Department of Communications has been spent. What is really at the root of this underexpenditure? Is it poor budget planning, or is it a lack of capacity to implement the programmes? And how does the Minister intend to remedy this serious apparent skills shortage that he has in the staff in the Department of Communications? Thank you.
Madam Deputy Speaker, I think the hon member would understand that there has been an acknowledgement of serious underspending in the department, and certainly it has to do with capacity constraints and certain rollovers which the adjustments indicate what they are there for.
Please be assured that we are attending to that matter in the sense that we are making a decisive effort to upskill the department and to resolve the problem of vacancies in order to bring us back on a par with the spending.
Deputy Speaker, the DA supports this adjustment because we want to see the department functioning correctly and, quite frankly, we want to see the department rise from its virtual ruin. However, a ministerial task team report into the crisis at Sentech and the SABC, in which massive irregular expenditure was revealed, remains a secret and thus protects those who are responsible for this irregular expenditure. Would the Minister give us his assurance that in future his department will follow a zero-tolerance approach and lay criminal charges against those responsible for irregular expenditure?
Madam Deputy Speaker, let the hon member be assured that that action has already been taken by me. On my second day in office I issued an instruction to Sentech that they must stick very strictly to all good corporate governance principles. We are very focused on that particular matter. So, you have our assurance that these things will be dealt with very speedily. [Applause.]
Madam Deputy Speaker, I thought you made a ruling that we must be told why the Ministers are not here. We didn't hear an explanation here, please. [Interjections.]
Hon Lekota, are you saying that you want more than the Minister of Communications? [Interjections.]
No, the Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries. [Interjections.]
No. [Interjections.]
Hon Deputy Speaker, I think the hon Lekota is looking for a pastoral Minister. [Laughter.]
I apologise. I didn't realise you'd gone past ... [Interjections.] But still, Madam Speaker, we do need to know where the Minister is. [Interjections.]
Hon Lekota, for the record, I said that if there were Ministers who were acting on behalf of other Ministers or if there were Deputy Ministers, when they stood up they must give an apology. But in this case, where there is no acting Minister and the Deputy Minister is not here, the Speaker will withdraw the Vote. This means that as there is nobody here, the earlier ruling of noting this so that we can explain later stands. Could you bear with me on that?
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Vote No 27 - Economic Development - put.
Madam Speaker, unfortunately I see my Minister is also not here. I had a question to ask, but in light of this it will also have to stand over.
You can ask your question. Maybe the Minister is represented. So you don't want to ask your question? Okay. Vote No 28 - Energy - put.
Vote No 29 - Environmental Affairs - put.
Vote No 30 - Human Settlements - put.
Deputy Speaker, I notice that my Minister is not here, but I am still going to put the question. When Minister Sisulu announced the Breaking New Ground policy, the department soon afterwards embarked on a turnaround strategy.
Now we are asked to approve money today to complete the turnaround strategy five or six years later, and we have actually come full circle in terms of the turnaround strategy. I wanted to know from the Minister what turnaround strategy he was embarking on after the turnaround strategy of Minister Sisulu, when she was the Minister dealing with human settlements? Thank you.
Is there a Minister acting on behalf of the Minister of Human Settlements? No, the question will stand over. I now put Vote No 31 - Mineral Resources.
Madam Deputy Speaker, please ... [Interjections.] We must place this on record: This is Parliament and this House serves the people of South Africa. When the Ministers are supposed to be here, they must be here because they get paid for it. [Interjections.] Thank you.
Hon Deputy Speaker, I just need to address you on the same point, and I understand the ruling that you gave in this regard. The practical problem is that, at the end of this process, we are supposed to ask Parliament to vote on these allocations. This is very difficult, because how are we supposed to vote on these allocations if we cannot handle the questions in terms of which government is asking for additional funds? I don't know how we are going to do that. That is really a serious problem.
Madam Deputy Speaker, I was going to rise later on a point of order, because what we are going through now in this process goes to the heart of democratic government and the operation of this Parliament.
I have counted that no less than 9 Ministers, perhaps 10 Ministers, are not here. Now if there was ever a time when there had to be a three-line whip for all parties to be accountable, for the Ministers to be accountable to Parliament, it is now.
My request to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, is to direct an enquiry to the Leader of Government Business to demand an explanation as to why Ministers refuse to be here in Parliament, to account to Parliament at the very time when they have to account to Parliament. It is absolutely unacceptable. We come here and we register - and I am sure the other opposition parties do as well - our strongest protest as far as this is concerned. [Applause.]
Deputy Speaker, may I address you on this point? I think the point has recurred throughout the afternoon. You have ruled on the matter, and hon colleagues in the opposition are aware that matters of this nature can be raised in the Rules Committee. If there are issues of this nature ... [Interjections.]
Order, hon members! Would you allow the hon member to speak.
Deputy Speaker, hon colleagues know full well that the Rules Committee is the appropriate platform. It will not assist us this afternoon for them to keep on standing up and raising the same issue on which you have ruled. Thank you.
Hon members, earlier I said I had taken note of this issue. That meant that I acknowledged what was being raised and would do exactly what hon members were saying, which is to check why members were not here, to check with the Leader of Government Business and then come back to this House.
Now, may we proceed with our work here? Regarding those Ministers who are not here, naturally if you don't want to ask a question, even if there is an acting Minister, you need not ask a question. But I don't know, hon members, what else you want this Table to do now when the Minister is not here, when I've said I'm taking note and that the issue will be addressed. I don't know what you want, when we keep on repeating the issue. [Interjections.] Hon members, please!
If I may, Madam Deputy Speaker: The only thing we will do, which we must do, is accept your ruling. But every time a Minister is not here, we must place it on record as it is for the sake of history. People who are appointed to the executive must understand that they are accountable to the citizens and when that must happen, they must be here. [Applause.] The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY - PERFORMANCE MONITORING, EVALUATION AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Deputy Speaker, I think we should acknowledge that the fact is, one, that most of the Ministers are not here; two, that there are those who are overseas, which has been indicated; three, that there is also a visit by the vice president of China and there was a binational commission today. Some of them might be there; I am not sure.
We would like to apologise on behalf of those Ministers. Let us allow the House to proceed on the basis of the ruling which you have made. We accept the points that have been raised by the opposition. Thank you. [Applause.]
Hon Deputy Speaker, if I may address you on the same issue, and I appreciate what the hon Minister in the Presidency said and I accept it. The problem is basically this: Isn't it normal practice that if a Minister leaves South Africa, somebody else is appointed in that Minister's stead and to take responsibility? Then it would mean that the person who is standing in for that Cabinet colleague will be prepared to come to the House and to answer the questions that we are asking.
The practical problem is this: I can understand your ruling that we cannot now ask those questions. But it's not about the questions. It's about the process that comes after this. When Parliament is asked to approve what the executive is asking from us in terms of additional amounts to be budgeted for, how can we ask Parliament to approve those things if those answers have not been given to Parliament? That is the problem.
What I would suggest - and I know it has huge implications - is technically we should not proceed in approving the additional Budget. We cannot do that. [Interjections.]
Madam Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: It is very surprising that we are debating instead of looking at various adjustments. What is even worse is that we have a programme that was decided on at the Chief Whips' Forum forum by all the parties. According to the programme, there were not going to be questions on Vote No 30, but now we have questions and debates. The point of order I am making is that we are not following the programme which was agreed upon by the opposition. Thank you. [Applause.]
Hon members, could we go back to the business of the day, having heard all the speakers and all the concerns. Could we go back to the business of the day? We are only at Vote No 31, and this is a long process.
Vote No 31 - Mineral Resources - put.
Deputy Speaker, the amount of R5 million is to be rolled over for the rehabilitation of derelict and ownerless mines. According to the latest Auditor-General's report, the total outstanding liability amounts to R50 billion. That is a thousand times the required roll-over amount. With acid mine drainage levels rising between 0,5 and 0,9 metres per day in underground Witwatersrand mines, and severe historical environmental damage which, to date, has not been addressed, only 0,01% of the total amount required for rehabilitation is to be rolled over.
The question is: What steps are the hon Minister and the interministerial committee taking to deal effectively with the issue of unrehabilitated mines in order to prevent the increasing threat of acid mine drainage and unrehabilitated mines to the population? I thank you.
Hon Deputy Speaker, as you know, the R5 million is a rollover, and a report was given to the portfolio committee explaining that, owing to the various tender processes which were followed, the people who had tendered unfortunately did not qualify, so this money was rolled over.
On the issue of acid mine drainage, I think you are aware that we have put together an interministerial committee which intends to address this. We have only been working for two months, so the issues that you have raised are issues which are being attended to, and we hope that through the various Ministers who have come together we will be able to find a solution, working together with the industry.
I must also say that derelict and ownerless mines, which need to be rehabilitated in South Africa, are issues of the past, are issues of irresponsible mining which occurred in South Africa, where there was no legislation which said that those who were mining then should take responsibility.
The current situation, as you know, is that the new legislation says that the polluter pays. Those who become involved in mining, currently, will have to take responsibility. The challenge, as you correctly say, is about the R50 billion in rehabilitations that must happen because of past practices. Unfortunately, the taxpayer in South Africa will have to take responsibility in making sure that we rehabilitate those ownerless mines and the people who left them. Unfortunately, that is what we will have to do at this stage. [Applause.]
Vote No 32 - Rural Development and Land Reform - put.
Deputy Speaker, in response to the high failure rate of land reform projects, has the department reprioritised its budget for these failing projects?
Could the Minister indicate to this House the progress made in the spending of budgets on these projects and the challenges, if any, and plans to address them?
Lastly, could he indicate the number of projects that are being revitalised and the impact that these projects are making on the lives of ordinary rural people in South Africa? Thank you.
Hon Deputy Speaker, yes, we have reprioritised in terms of the baseline budget for land reform. We have taken 25% of that for recapitalisation and development, and that is in the R900 million for this financial year.
There are challenges. For example, we are visiting all the farms - in terms of the Land Redistribution for Agricultural Development programme and previous programmes. A lot of people are not on the ground. Nothing is happening; nobody is there; you don't find anyone. So, there are many farms that are lying fallow with no one taking responsibility. That is a major challenge. Therefore we don't have an exact portfolio of evidence of who is supposed to be there and who is not there. That is really the challenge and we are working on that right now.
With regard to the number of revitalised farms, for now in the Free State there are 11 farms that we are focusing on. We have created a partnership with the Bloemfontein Abattoir, and are working on that. This is a programme which we will be launching this coming Saturday, 20 November 2010.
There are many families, certainly, who will benefit from this. Over the past weekend we interacted with more than 100 projects that related to the farm equity scheme, which we had put a moratorium on. We are lifting that in January. We have met with them and we know now what is coming from the people themselves, and what it is that we need to do.
Vote No 33 - Science and Technology - put.
Deputy Speaker, through you to the Minister, if you look at your budget, a quarter of your total budget - in terms of the economic classification - is transfers to nonprofit institutions, which have been slashed by some 65%. If you go into the programmes, you will see that the Research, Development and Innovation programme has had massive cuts - space science, hydrogen and energy, biotechnology and health, and so on that have been slashed.
My questions to you are: Why are there these cuts? Secondly, as a country we are already underspending on R&D, so if government is cutting back its contribution to R&D, what is that doing for our national plan to reach a certain target? Thirdly, you have a performance agreement with the President about maintaining certain targets, which has just been increased to 1,5%. What does this do for your performance agreement? Thank you.
Thank you very much, hon Smith. I hope the day will come when South Africa will spend more than 1% of its GDP on research and development. The movement of funds from Research, Development and Innovation concerns allocations to new institutions - the Technology Innovation Agency - and then, of course, the rescheduling, as you know, of the programme with respect to the space science programme - the building of the Square Kilometre Array.
As you would be aware from a recent statement I made, we have rescheduled because the global committee on the Square Kilometre Array has indicated that the science points to a need for a redesign of the actual Square Kilometre Array - the dishes and the type of antennae that would be utilised. So, we don't want to proceed to build immediately and use a design that would not make us fit to compete effectively for the bid.
So, it's not a reduction in terms of the programme intention, but it's really a rescheduling. That's the primary part of the change that there is in the Research, Development and Innovation programme's budget. It's not money taken a way; it's rescheduling of our programme of build with respect to our largest intervention, which is the space science programme. [Applause.]
Vote No 34 - Tourism - put.
Deputy Speaker, let us just hope there are as many gaps in the United States of America's defence tonight as there are in the ministerial benches today. [Applause.]
I would like to ask the Minister about the head office for Tourism. An amount of R40 million has been appropriated for the head office for Tourism, of which about R14 million is for refurbishment and nearly R9 million for furniture.
Would the Minister or the Deputy Minister be getting some of that office space? In which case, what will it cost to equip, refurbish and put furniture into their offices? If not, what is it going to cost to refurbish and furnish the office of an average senior official? I would like the House to be told whether, in fact, we are spending this money wisely or whether, indeed, it is going to be just another example of wasteful or frivolous expenditure. Thank you.
Is there an Acting Minister of Tourism, or Deputy Minister? [Interjections.] No. The Minister is not here. May I then put Vote No 35? Hon member, your question will be relayed. Vote No 35 - Trade and Industry - put.
Deputy Speaker, I can see that my Minister is also not here, but I see the Deputy Minister is here. My question is: Does the Minister agree that the department seems to have constraints with budget planning, with more than 26% in virements? This does, indeed, demonstrate poor budget planning or a lack of capacity to implement this programme. I would like the Minister to respond to that. Thank you.
Madam Deputy Speaker, the reasons for the virements are clearly explained. But, I think, at the portfolio committee level we also explained this. The reasons are different. For example, for Coega the funds were shifted to allow the obligations that we had in Richards Bay and Port Elizabeth to be met. We cannot just spend money without proper due diligence with the local people there.
You can also look at the film incentive scheme: Due to the World Cup, their production declined. And, in regard to this particular issue, we had to shift the money to ensure that we could have a higher uptake, because during the World Cup the uptake was very low.
That is just an example. It is not that there was no proper planning. There is planning. As the hon member knows, there is strategic planning, for example Ipap. It is just that we had to do it that way. I thank you. [Applause.]
Vote No 36 - Transport - put.
Madam Deputy Speaker, Transport and Water Affairs are usually the last Votes that we deal with in this particular debate. One of two things happens: We either have no time to speak or more time to speak. Because there are no Ministers in the House today, I have the latter opportunity. I want to thank both of our Ministers for being here and being held accountable. I appreciate them being here.
I will be talking about Programme 3: Transport Regulation and Accident and Incident Investigation, which, if the Minister would like to look in the book, it is on page 350. I will refer to it specifically. It is very nice to know that Minister Manuel is also in the House, because he will remember what I am going to be talking about here.
If you recall, when Natis - the National Traffic Information System - was migrated to eNatis, there was a big deficit of about R111 million, if I remember correctly. The Minister then decided in his wisdom that the best thing to do in order to recover that debt and to repay the deficit, was to levy a fee on every vehicle registration licensing transaction that takes place in the country. It was then about R30; it is now R36.
Minister, in light of the revelations we had yesterday in the portfolio committee, during which it was stated that R315 million of the very money I am talking about - the licensing transaction fees that were collected by the Road Traffic Management Corporation, RTMC, is now being utilised for their operating costs, against a Treasury directive, I might add, I would like to know what action is being considered to recover those funds and will the R195 million now appropriated under Programme 3 suffice to continue the maintenance of the eNatis database?
Furthermore, could the Minister give his assurance to the motoring public that as a result of the irregular transgressions of this transaction fee by the Road Traffic Management Corporation, he will not increase the R36 transaction fee in any manner to offset this irregularity? To continue with this transaction fee beyond the original recovery cost, which Mr Manuel wanted to get back - and which I think he has more than trebled by now - won't be necessary. Thank you very much. Can I talk some more? [Interjections.] [Laughter.]
Deputy Speaker, I would like to thank the hon member for the question. The member is aware that disciplinary action has been instituted against the CEO of the Road Traffic Management Corporation, and that the RTMC itself has been dissolved. The member is also aware that criminal proceedings are being preferred against the former CEO of the RTMC. That matter is at hand. I think that was adequately explained at the portfolio committee meeting. [Applause.]
Vote No 37 - Water Affairs - put.
Minister, you have taken over a water department that has some serious governance problems. The level of virements and shiftings in the department is 36,7%, which exceeded the 8% permitted by the Public Finance Management Act, PFMA. In addition to this, the department underspent by 37,7% in the first six months of the financial year.
In terms of performance during this financial year, the target of providing water to our citizens who previously did not have access to water has been adjusted downwards from 1,2 million to 800 000. So, the underexpenditure is affecting delivery.
My question, though, Minister: If you walked into this office two weeks ago with no new director-general, an acting director-general who was suspended two weeks ago, and a chief financial officer who was also suspended two weeks ago, now that more money has been appropriated to you, what assurances can you give us that the financial governance in this department will be improved and that you will deal with the skills problems in top management? I thank you.
Hon Deputy Speaker, although the question at the end was really all about assurances regarding the availability of senior managers able to manage this budget, I just want to start by also making some comments because the hon member made comments which I think also deserve to be responded to.
We do acknowledge that the level of virements in the department has been quite high. In that regard, a programme has been introduced to try very hard to stick to the required levels of expenditure - per Vote, per programme and per line item. That improvement is due to happen. We are definitely going to monitor this together with the managers who are currently in the department.
The second issue that was raised is that there has been an impact on the service delivery programme. Indeed, I want to say that there has been a bit of a lack in terms of ensuring that we deliver, particularly in terms of the sanitation programme. I'm sure all of us are aware - as per the discussions in the portfolio committee - that the sanitation programme has been lagging behind because of the municipalities' programmes and the availability of funds that have to come in as matching funds from the municipalities.
We are, however, going to be expanding on and accelerating this programme. We are definitely looking forward to a situation in which we work closely with municipalities and provinces so as to align every function, particularly those which have to do with service delivery. This will ensure that, in terms of service delivery, there is quick movement in everything we do.
Yes, two of the senior managers are on suspension. A lot of other junior managers are also going on suspension. But, with regard to the director- general, the case has been finalised at least at the level of the department. All things being equal, we should now be able to at least get a new director-general. As I've said: "All things being equal."
With regard to the two other senior managers - the chief financial officer and the corporate services manager - that process will still continue because their cases are still pending and have not yet been concluded. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Deputy Speaker, I appreciate that the Minister is new to this portfolio, and I'm sure she has inherited some serious problems. She has just attested to the suspension of the acting director-general and the chief financial officer.
Having said that, Minister, there seems to be a serious problem with multiyear budget planning, and the management of dam-building projects. Underexpenditure in the dam-building programmes results in the escalation of costs. How does the Minister intend to address this so as to avoid the unnecessary wastage of public money and the high cost of construction and infrastructure? Thank you.
Deputy Speaker, once again I acknowledge the question. We would actually use the services of experts to build dams. The acting deputy director-general has been suspended, and the case of the director-general - as I said - has been concluded. That matter is being attended to as per the earlier discussion. The matter about the backlog in the building of dams is indeed also an issue that needs to be attended to.
However, we need to take note that, even in the report, the Nandoni Dam in particular has been lagging behind with some 40% of work that needs to be done. Indeed, a lot of money had to be adjusted to actually cover the escalating costs. So, the infrastructure programme is one of the areas that we need to attend to, and we will attend to it.
I am told, much as I am new, that there is infrastructure provision to the tune of about R6 billion for dams that are being built all over the country.
I want to ensure that going forward we actually introduce some of the measures in government, like the African Institute for Economic Development and Planning, Idep, which are related to planning and preplanning. What is most important is that those dams be completed on time without cost escalations, and not as has happened with regard to the Nandoni Dam. Thank you very much.
Madam Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: I just want to register the fact that the DA will not be voting, but will, as a point of protest, be abstaining on the Votes of those Ministers who were not present when their Vote was called. I also want to point out that it is little wonder that there were no Ministers present, as the Chief Whip and Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party, who are responsible for ensuring the presence of Ministers and members, have been absent during this entire process.
Thank you, hon member. I now put Vote No 1 -Presidency. Are there any objections? [Interjections.]
Madam Deputy Speaker ...
I really want to proceed. I'm putting Vote No 1 - Presidency. Are there any objections?
Madam Deputy Speaker, Cope will also abstain on all of those Votes where the Ministers were not present.
Hon members, the problem is that that is going to be very difficult because the Votes will be called one by one. It will help the recording, me and the meeting if you abstain at the time. Could we do it that way, as we are not going to record your abstentions now, because, by the time we get to the item, we won't know if you are abstaining or not. I will be putting the Votes again. Hon member?
Chairperson, that may be the case, but that will mean that all the parties will get up every time and that is going to take more time. [Interjections.]
But it must be the case.
Hon Deputy Speaker, what I suggest is that you take note that parties will abstain, and they will do so. I would like to call on the majority party, because they are also supposed to act in the best interests of Parliament.
Discussion on Votes and Schedule concluded.
Hon members, when I put a particular Vote, could I appeal to you that you record your aye, nay or abstention at that time?
Vote No 1 - Presidency - put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 211: Adams, P E; Alberts, A D; Baloyi, M R; Bapela, K O; Bhengu, N R; Bhengu, P; Bhoola, R B; Bikani, F C; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Botha, Y R; Burgess, C V; Buthelezi, M G; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, M A ; Chabane, O C; Chikunga, L S; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Dikobo, K J; Ditshetelo, I C; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlulane, B N; Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M C; Dunjwa, M L; Fihla, N B; Fransman, M L; Frolick, C T; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gaum, A H; Gcwabaza, N E; Gelderblom, J P; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Gololo, C L; Gona, M F; Goqwana, M B; Gumede, D M; Hanekom, D A; Huang, S-B; Jeffery, J H; Joemat-Pettersson, T M; Johnson, M; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, F E; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kotsi, C M P; Kubayi, M T; Landers, L T; Lebenya- Ntanzi, S P; Lekgetho, G; Lishivha, T E; Luyenge, Z; Maake, J J; Mabedla, N R; Mabuza, M C; Madlala, N M; Magama, H T; Magazi , M N; Magubane, E; Magwanishe, G; Makasi, X C; Makhuba, H N; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makwetla, S P; Malale, M I; Malgas, H H; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, J M; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Mandela, Z M D; Manganye, J; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Maserumule, F T; Mashigo, R J; Mashishi, A C; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, D H; Mathibela, N F; Matladi, M N; Matlanyane, H F; Matshoba, J M; Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W; Maziya, A M; Mdaka, N M; Mdakane, M R; Mjobo, L N; Mkhize, H B; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlangeni, A; Mmusi, S G; Mnisi, N A; Mocumi, P A; Mohale, M C; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Moloto, K A; Morutoa, M R; Moss, L N; Motimele, M S; Mpontshane, A M; Msimang, C T; Msweli, H S; Mthethwa, E M; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mulder, C P; Mushwana, F F; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndebele, J S; Ndlanzi, A Z; Ndlovu, V B; Ndude, H N; Nelson, W J; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, W; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Nkwinti, G E; Nonkonyana, M; November, N T; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, Z C; N'wamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxesi, T W; Nxumalo, M D ; Nyalungu, R E; Nyanda, M F; Nyanda, S; Nyekemba, E; Oliphant , G G; Oliphant, M N; Oosthuizen, G C; Padayachie, R L; Pampiri, S G; Pandor, G N M; Petersen-Maduna, P; Phaliso, M N; Pilusa-Mosoane, M E; Pule, D D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, G S; Radebe, J T; Ramatlhodi, N A; Ramodibe, D M; Ramokgopa, G; Schneemann, G D; Selau, G T; September, C C; Sexwale, T M G; Shabangu, S; Shiceka, S; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhidla, N N; Singh, N; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, K P; Skosana, J J; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Snell, G T; Sogoni, E M; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Suka, L; Sulliman, E M; Sunduza, T B; Thabethe, E; Thibedi, J D; Tinto, B; Tlake, M F; Tseke, G K; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Tsotetsi, D R; Turok, B; VAN Rooyen, D D; VAN Wyk, A; Williams, A J; Xaba, P P; Xingwana, L M; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, B Z.
NOES - 77: Adams, L H; Balindlela, Z B; Blaai, B C; Bosman, L L; Botha, T; Coetzee, T W; Davidson, I O; De Freitas, M S F; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Du Toit, N D; Duncan, P C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Figlan, A M; Gcume, N P; George, D T; George, M E; Harris, T; Kalyan, S V; Kilian, J D; Kloppers-Lourens, J C; Kohler-Barnard, D; Koornhof, N J J v R; Kopane, S P; Krumbock, G R; Lamoela, H; Lee, T D; Lekota, M G P; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; MacKenzie, G D; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, S J; Max, L; Maynier, D J; Mazibuko, L D; Mda, A; Michael, N W A; Mokgalapa, S; More, E; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Nhanha, M A; Njobe, M A A; Ntshiqela, P; Ollis, I M; Pretorius, P J C; Rabie, P J; Rabotapi, M W; Ramatlakane, L; Ross, D; Schafer, D A; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Smalle, J; Smuts, M; Steele, M H; Steyn, A; Steyn, A C; Stubbe, D; Swart, M; Swart, S N; Swathe, M M; Tolo, L J; Trollip, RAP; Van Dalen, P; Van de Linde, J J; Van den Berg, N J; Van der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, S M; Van Schalkwyk, H C; Vukuza-Linda, N Y; Waters, M; Wenger, M.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 2 - Parliament - agreed to.
Vote No 3 - Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs - agreed to.
Vote No 4 - Home Affairs - agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Congress of the People, African Christian Democratic Party and Freedom Front Plus abstaining).
Hon Madam Deputy Speaker, I am not sure but I think this is the first time that we are recording abstentions. We have recorded objections in the past, but how do you record an abstention? Technically we should ...
No, hon member. If members stand up and say, "I will abstain," they are not asking us to vote in the House. That is exactly why I am saying that that will be recorded, otherwise if they wanted something else they would have called for a vote, and then we would have voted.
Vote No 5 - International Relations and Co-operation - agreed to.
Vote No 6 - Public Works - agreed to.
Vote No 7 - Women, Children and People with Disabilities - agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).
Vote No 8 - Government Communication and Information System - agreed to.
Vote No 9 - National Treasury - agreed to.
Vote No 10 - Public Enterprises - agreed to.
Vote No 11 - Public Service and Administration - agreed to. Vote No 12 - Statistics South Africa - agreed to.
Vote No 13 - Arts and Culture - agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Congress of the People and African Christian Democratic Party abstaining).
Vote No 14 - Basic Education - agreed to (African Christian Democratic Party abstaining).
Deputy Speaker, I am a bit confused because as early as last week we were sent forms on which to indicate our responses to these categories. There are three categories, namely question, objection and division. There was no space for abstention. We are disadvantaged now because we are deviating from what was in the form. As a publicity stunt people are standing up to abstain. [Applause.] We should be standing up for what is in here ... [Applause.] [Interjections.]
There is a speaker on the floor, hon Ellis.
Deputy Speaker, I am raising this point because I did hear from that corner someone asking: "Where is the IFP?" That is why I am raising this issue. [Interjections.] Our responses to the different Votes did not depend on whether the Ministers were here or not. I must say, though, that as the IFP we are as aggrieved as the other opposition parties about the absence of the Ministers, but I will defend our party's right to act independently and it is not for the parties to ask where the IFP is. I thank you. [Applause.]
Thank you, hon member.
Madam Deputy Speaker, I think that we fully understand the IFP's right to vote the way they want to vote, so we are not going to interfere with them. However, I need to make it clear to the IFP that the piece of paper that the hon member is holding is purely a guideline to the Table staff and to yourself, Madam Deputy Speaker, and certainly no party is obliged to vote according to this piece of paper.
Deputy Speaker, when we were done with all the discussions about abstaining or not abstaining, I had understood that the intention of the opposition parties was some measure of sanction on those Ministers who were not here. In the specific case that we are dealing with now, which is Basic Education, it was explained that the member was unwell and there was an acting Minister. I cannot, therefore, understand the principle and the logic behind this. Thank you.
No, not only that - the other Minister was here and responded to questions, but still the DA abstains. So it's not like that. I think it is the choice of parties to abstain. Can we move on?
Now I hear, hon member, what you say about categories, but the issue is that if people want to abstain, even though they are not supposed to abstain in a vote, they want to record their abstention without calling for a division to vote. So, I don't think that is a problem as such. This is just like when members of different parties make a statement in that they object to the budget, even when the Minister is here. I think then they must be allowed to do that. [Interjections.]
Hon member, do you have ... What?
May I address you, Madam Deputy Speaker? The hon Sisulu reminded us, with regard to the Basic Education Vote, that a reasonable explanation was forwarded as to why the Minister of Basic Education was not here and that she was unwell, and indeed her question was answered. So, based on that, I would like to withdraw the abstention of the DA. [Applause.]
Thank you, hon member. Can we move on to Vote No 15 ... [Interjections.] Order, hon members! I am sure we all want to go home at some stage. Do you want to withdraw, hon member?
Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to take this opportunity to welcome the Minister of Human Settlements who has just returned from overseas and the Minister of Agriculture ... [Interjections.] [Applause.] We were told they were overseas; they have just quickly returned. Thank you. [Applause.] [Laughter.]
Vote No 15 - Health - put.
Hon members, we are voting and we are not supposed to be making a noise or jokes in the House.
Vote No 15 - Health - agreed to.
Are there are objections?
Madam Deputy Speaker, we would like to have the abstention of Cope recorded on Vote No 16 - Higher Education and Training.
Vote No 16 - Higher Education and Training - agreed to (Congress of the People abstaining).
Vote No 17 - Labour - put.
Are there any objections? Are there any objections to Labour? Yes, hon member?
Please record the objections of the DA on Vote No 17 - Labour.
That's because the questions were not answered properly, hey? Okay.
Hon Deputy Speaker, I would request that you record our objections. This is not because the Minister was not here, but because we do not agree with the amount that has been requested and for the purposes.
Objections recorded.
Vote No 17 - Labour - agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).
Vote No 18 - Social Development - agreed to.
Vote No 19 - Sports and Recreation South Africa - agreed to.
Vote No 20 - Correctional Services - agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).
Vote No 21 - Defence and Military Veterans - agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).
Vote No 22 - Independent Complaints Directorate - agreed to.
Vote No 23 - Justice and Constitutional Development - agreed to.
Vote No 24 - Police - agreed to.
Vote No 25 - Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries - put.
Are there any objections?
Madam Deputy Speaker, although the Minister has arrived, I see, she was not here when the questions were asked, and therefore the DA would like to abstain on that Vote.
Madam Deputy Speaker, for the same reason please also record the abstention of Cope.
Vote No 25 - Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries - agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Congress of the People abstaining).
Vote No 26 - Communications - agreed to.
Vote No 27 - Economic Development - agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Congress of the People abstaining).
Vote No 28 - Energy - agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Congress of the People abstaining).
Vote No 29 - Environmental Affairs - agreed to.
Vote No 30 - Human Settlements - put.
Are there any objections?
Madam Deputy Speaker, although the Minister has arrived, he was not here when the questions were put. Therefore the DA would like to record its abstention.
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The same applies to us. We are very happy that he is back from overseas, but he was unfortunately too late for questions.
Vote No 30 - Human Settlements - agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Congress of the People abstaining).
Vote No 31 - Mineral Resources - agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).
Vote No 32 - Rural Development and Land Reform - agreed to.
Vote No 33 - Science and Technology - agreed to.
Vote No 34 - Tourism - agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Congress of the People and Freedom Front Plus abstaining).
Vote No 35 - Trade and Industry - agreed to.
Vote No 36 - Transport - agreed to.
Vote No 37 - Water Affairs - - agreed to.
Schedule agreed to.