Hon Chairperson, hon members of the House, ladies and gentlemen, it is with great pleasure that I introduce the South African Postbank Bill in the National Assembly today. When the White Paper on Postal Policy was passed in 1998, it was recognised that the Postbank as an institution would play an important role in satisfying the saving needs ...
Madam Chair, I rise on a point of order. There is a clause in this Bill that provides for monies to be made available via the MTEF, the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, to the bank in order to fund the bank's operations. Now, I understand that that type of clause in the Bill provides specifically for this type of legislation to go via the Portfolio Committee on Finance. I want to know whether, in fact, this Bill has gone to the Finance committee and, if not, why not, because my belief is that this is a money Bill and should have gone to the Finance committee.
Hon Chief Whip of the Opposition, we have a joint tagging mechanism, which decides on the classification of Bills in terms of which committees they fall under. According to that classification, the Bill falls under the Portfolio Committee on Communications. According to my understanding, when the same issue was raised in the Chief Whips Forum they said that the Finance committee was consulted on the matter and that it was therefore agreed that the Portfolio Committee on Communications would continue with the legislation. Based on that, I therefore allow the Minister to introduce the Bill and continue with the debate. [Applause.]
Madam Chair, with respect to your ruling, first of all, when this was raised in the Chief Whips Forum, exactly that was indicated. But my information, which is correct, was that the committee was not consulted. The chairperson of that committee was consulted. Second of all, notwithstanding the fact that there was a process which you outlined that indicated where this Bill should go, I do not believe that the people who made that classification had actually read the Bill. The Bill specifically makes money available from the MTEF for the operations of this bank. Therefore, it must be a money Bill.
Hon member, this Bill was not tabled in Parliament yesterday. It was tabled in Parliament through the Office of the Speaker and the Office of the Chairperson. The members who comprise the joint tagging mechanism are the Speaker of the National Assembly and the Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces and they are advised by the legal team of Parliament. I believe that members of this House have the right to advice as early as possible. I don't think that, in reality, it is necessary to raise this issue now, because all Members of Parliament from all political parties participated in the debate and discussions. It is unfortunate that you heard that it was only the chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Finance who was consulted on the matter.
In terms of the report, when the Chief Whips Forum agreed to continue with the process of this legislation they were informed that the committee had been consulted. Also, it was agreed that the Bill was to be part of the programme by the very same Chief Whips Forum of which the member is a part. This was also agreed to by the programming committee of which the member is also a member. If the intention was not to continue with this particular Bill, it was not supposed to have been agreed to at the Chief Whips forum and also not in the programming committee. Could we please allow the Minister to continue? I am not going to entertain any further discussion on this.
Madam Chair, I really do not wish to be obstructive. My intention in rising is not to be obstructive. My intention is to point out ... [Interjections.] ... that clause 22 of this Bill provides for monies to be appropriated from Parliament, and that makes it a money Bill.
Hon Ian Davidson, could you please take your seat. You were part of all these forums that I have mentioned. You were part of them. You were part of the forums where it was decided that this Bill should be part of the programme. Therefore, just take your seat. [Interjections.]
Madam Chair, I shall take my seat, but your interpretation of what took place at the Chief Whips Forum is entirely incorrect. [Interjections.]
Hon member, take your seat. Hon Minister, continue.
Thank you, Madam Chairperson. When the White Paper on Postal Policy was passed in 1998, it was recognised that the Postbank, as an institution, would play an important role in satisfying the saving needs of the rural and underserviced communities in our country.
The Bill before you seeks to establish the Postbank as a subsidiary of the SA Post Office, which will provide a range of services to the majority of our citizens without any of the hurdles they would be experience at a commercial bank.
The Postbank will be restructured to accommodate the developmental goals of the state. It is therefore the objective of this Bill before you to create a bank of first choice for the lower income groups, providing them with appropriate banking products and high-quality services.
As a bank of first choice to the rural and marginalised communities, it will enable our people to access banking services, previously out of reach to many. In time, it will expand its financial services. It will do so, however, only after the Minister of Communications, in concurrence with the Minister of Finance, agree with the need for such expansion.
This will also significantly strengthen our efforts to inculcate a culture of saving and stimulate socioeconomic development, particularly in the rural areas. The primary aim is to provide financial services to communities within the proximity of their dwellings.
The tabling of the South African Postbank Bill in this House is a step in realising this vision. In this regard, the main purpose of the Bill is to corporatise the Postbank, which is currently a division of the Post Office. It will utilise the infrastructure and facilities of the SA Post Office. The post office has a large footprint, covering over 70% of the country, thus enabling the possible spread of the services the Postbank will provide.
The Postbank, as a company, will be managed by its own board with all the required corporate governance requirements and all mechanisms that will ensure accountability. The details on the implementation and capacity of the board plan will be directed by ministerial policy. A memorandum of understanding will be developed between the Department of Communications and the SA Post Office soon after the Bill is promulgated.
Importantly, the Postbank will be brought within the ambit of the financial and banking regulatory environment, as regulated by the Registrar of Banks. The Postbank will become a key player in the promotion of universal and affordable access to banking services. It will ensure that the rates and charges of the Postbank take into consideration the needs of the people in the lower income group.
The approval of this Bill will break new ground in creating a financial institution that communities will identify with by virtue of its location in underserviced areas. This Bill provides for the Minister of Communications to exercise oversight in cases that require Treasury intervention. The concurrence of the Minister of Finance is required. I have no doubt that the passing of this Bill will bring much relief and excitement to the marginalised citizens of this country.
In conclusion, I want to state that the Bill has been thoroughly consulted on by the working committee, comprising the Department of Communications, the National Treasury, the Reserve Bank and the SA Post Office, during the public consultations in all nine provinces. The Portfolio Committee on Communications also played a key role in the refinement of the Bill.
I want to thank the chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Communications, Mr Ishmael Vadi, and members of the committee who had marathon meetings in considering the Bill. Finally, I wish to recognise the able support of the Deputy Minister of Communications, Ms Dina Pule. I also wish to thank the senior management of the Department of Communications and my staff for the effort they put into ensuring the drafting and finalisation of this Bill. I thank you for allowing me to introduce this Bill and look forward to its speedy passage through this House. Thank you. [Applause.]
Chairperson, it is a privilege to speak in support of the South African Postbank Bill. Once passed, the Bill will corporatise the Postbank into a fully fledged public bank. It is envisaged that the Postbank will become the bank of first choice for lower-income groups in society.
The local post office in one's town or locality currently provides standard postal services, allows for a personal savings facility and sells stationery and newspapers. It also serves as a monthly pension or grant pay- point for the elderly and the disabled respectively. Once the new Postbank is launched and registered, it will not only act as a savings bank, but will lend and borrow money, particularly to the poor, to rural dwellers and to youth and students. In this sense, this Bill is one of the most important pro-poor measures introduced by the ANC government in the current term.
The new bank will bring to reality the vision of the White Paper on Postal Policy. It will serve as a powerful support structure for rural-urban financial linkages, allowing for easier financial access for migrant workers and promoting economic growth in rural areas. It will strengthen the prospect for savings and generate investment capital among rural communities. In the short term, the Postbank can become a critical poverty- combating instrument in poor communities. In the near future, it has the potential to develop into a powerful state bank comparable to similar financial institutions in Germany and Japan.
The Postbank will be an autonomous company, wholly owned by the Post Office. It will be owned indirectly by government. It will be managed by an independent board of directors, composed of 10 persons including the bank manager. The board will be accountable to the Post Office, the Minister of Communications and to Parliament. The public, together with the Post Office, will be invited to nominate suitable persons for board membership. These will be screened by a nominations committee, which will make final recommendations to the Ministers of Communications and Finance. In the end, board membership is dependent on nominees passing the fit and proper test, set by the Registrar of Banks.
Structurally, and in terms of policy formulation, the bank is located midway between the Minister of Communications and the Minister of Finance. For this reason, the committee has ensured that all major policy and operational decisions enjoy the concurrent support of both Ministers. The committee has also insisted that the responsible Ministers develop appropriate investment, lending and borrowing policies for the bank. These policies must be approved by Cabinet and must be tabled before Parliament, so as to ensure that there is no repeat of the debacle that we have seen at the Land Bank. Furthermore, any decision of the Postbank that is inconsistent with the policy framework determined by government will be of no force or effect.
The committee has also introduced stringent criteria for appointment to the board of the Postbank. A person with any material conflict of interest will not be eligible to serve on the board and his or her business enterprise will not be able to enter into any business transactions with the bank. The committee has introduced provisions that criminalise a failure to declare a conflict of interest. The insertion of such onerous provisions is there to ensure that there is no possibility for any abuse by either the board or any member of the board.
... [Inaudible.] ... like the rest or some of the civil service.
Order, please!
House Chairperson, I would like now to address the Chief Whip of the Opposition, the DA, with your kind permission. I am disappointed that the DA has decided to vote against this Bill. This Bill is complex, but it is not politically contentious. The process by which we reached this stage has taken a long time. You will recall that the Bill was first referred to the committee in November last year. The committee held public hearings on the Bill on 23 March this year. In April, the committee agreed to a sensible proposal from the hon Kilian to include the National Treasury in all its deliberations. In total, the committee spent 10 weeks examining the provisions of the Bill and on amending it.
In all this time, the DA did not once indicate that this Bill was undesirable or that it should be processed by the Finance committee. [Interjections.] If it had made that suggestion, the committee would have made arrangements earlier for conferring fully with the Portfolio Committee on Finance. So, this came as a total surprise to us when in the last week, in the last meeting of the committee, the DA expressed its intention to vote against this Bill. I do believe that this is a vote against the poor and downtrodden in our society. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
It is my hope that the Postbank becomes as successful as the Grameen Bank in Bangladesh, which uses microloans without collateral, to help eradicate poverty in developing countries. It has now opened a branch in the United States, called Grameen America. It offers loans from $500 to $3000 to vendors who borrow money daily to rent carts to sell their wares, or to a hair salon owner who needs cash to buy shampoo. One of the first persons to whom it disbursed a loan is Socorro Diaz. Thank you very much. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Hon House Chairperson, hon members of this House, it is always a privilege to speak in this House on behalf of the DA. The South African Postbank Bill proposes to establish a company owned by the government that will ultimately operate as a regular bank. The Bill proposes a structure similar to that of state-owned, corporatised enterprises. Although government-owned, a board will preside over the bank and therefore enjoy all the perks of a private entity.
In die struktuur van 'n private maatskappy is dit normale praktyk. Die raad van die maatskappy het 'n toesighoudende funksie oor die besluite wat die uitvoerende bestuur van dag tot dag maak. Die raad staan, by wyse van spreke, pa of ma vir die besluite van die uitvoerende bestuur en is verantwoordbaar teenoor die aandeelhouers. Die aandeelhouers van die privaat onderneming wen, indien alles klopdisselboom verloop met die maatskappy. Indien sake skeefloop, verloor hulle dalk al hulle beleggings. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[In the structure of a private corporation this is normal practice. The board of a private corporation has an oversight function over the decisions the executive takes from day to day. The board is, in a manner of speaking, answerable for the decisions of the executive, and it is accountable to the shareholders. When everything is hunky-dory in the corporation's affairs the shareholders gain, but when things go wrong they may lose their entire investment.]
The South African government will be the sole shareholder in this state entity. As it will be underwritten by government, the success and weaknesses of the bank will also be those of the government. Financial success means profit for the state coffers but, alarmingly, the government will also bear the burden of its failure. If the government has to bail out the Postbank, it is actually you and I, the humble taxpayers, who will pay.
The hon members of this House must think very carefully before they vote yes or no to this Bill. As members, we are representing millions of people in this House. We are representing the people of South Africa. We are voting on behalf of the voters. What will your people, your constituency say? Yes, we are fully aware that people, specifically in poor rural areas, need the financial support of the banking system, but have you told them what the consequences might be? No, you have not.
Did you tell your poor voters that if anything goes wrong, it is they that will have to pay? It is these citizens that will have to pay for the mistakes of the Postbank board - a board they will probably never meet and whose members are barely known to the public. If you say yes to this Bill, you agree that your voters will pay for whatever mistakes the board of the Postbank will make. You will ultimately place the financial fate of many rural, poor citizens in the hands of the Postbank, a government-run entity that will operate in a vigorous financial environment.
South Africa's banking sector is robust and amongst the best in the world, as evidenced during the global financial crisis. There are other solutions to the problem. Why not look at incentives for the formal banking sector to ensure that it offers banking services to the income groups to be targeted by the Postbank? Mzanzi accounts are excellent examples.
Alhoewel die DA krities staan teenoor die Wetsontwerp op die Suid- Afrikaanse Posbank, stel ek dit namens die DA baie duidelik - en ook in antwoord op die opmerking wat agb Vadi gemaak het - dat die DA geensins gekant is teen die oogmerke van die wetsontwerp nie. Die arm en dikwels gesoleerde mense in die landelike gebiede van Suid-Afrika moet op gelykwaardige wyse as burgers van ons land geer en gerespekteer word. Hulle moet aan die gestruktureerde bankwese van Suid-Afrika kan deelneem.
Die fundamentele vraag bly steeds - gegewe die behoeftes van die arm, landelike mense - is dit die rol van die staat om in hierdie behoefte te voorsien? Dit is asof die ANC in die regering senuagtig rondskarrel om oplossings te vind vir die vele sosio-maatskaplike en ekonomiese probleme in ons jong demokrasie.
Die probleme die afgelope 16 jaar het nie kleiner geword nie. Die probleem het gegroei van 'n groot molshoop tot 'n reusagtige berg. Daar moet kollektief na oplossings gesoek word om die arm mense in ons land te help, en ek wil die regering verseker dat die DA onverpoosd werk en na oplossings soek. Gelukkig kan die DA meld dat die mense lank laas in hulle lewe so 'n goeie regering gehad het in die Wes-Kaap soos nou. Dit is onder die leierskap van Helen Zille. Die DA in die Wes-Kaap is 'n uitstekende voorbeeld van hoe om 'n oplossing vir 'n probleem te vind.
Die Wetsontwerp op die Suid-Afrikaanse Posbank probeer iets oplos sonder dat die regering weet wat die onderliggende oorsaak is - die totaal verkeerde medisyne vir 'n lank reeds bestaande siekte, by wyse van spreke.
Die ANC en sy alliansievennote moet besef die rol van die regering moet kleiner word en nie groter nie. Al wat die ANC nou doen is om die druk op die uitgawekant van die staat nog groter te maak - meer personeel, salarisse, ensovoorts.
Kom ons wees eerlik. Staatsentiteite vaar nie goed nie - power, om die minste te s - veral nie die staatsentiteite wat aan die Minister van Kommunikasie verslag doen nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Although the DA adopts a critical stance towards the South African Postbank Bill, I wish to state it very clearly on behalf of the DA - partly in response to the remark by the hon Vadi - that the DA is in no way opposed to the aims and objectives of the Bill. The poor and often isolated people in the rural areas of South Africa must be honoured and respected in an equitable way as citizens of our country. They must be able to participate in South Africa's structured banking sector.
But the fundamental question remains - given the needs and requirements of the rural poor - is it the role of the state to provide for these needs? It appears that the ANC in government is nervously scrambling about to find solutions for the many social and economic problems in our young democracy.
The problems have not become any smaller over the past 16 years. The problem has grown from a major molehill to a giant mountain. There must be a collective search for solutions in order to help the indigent in our country, and I want to assure the government that the DA works ceaselessly in the search for solutions. Fortunately the DA can report that it has been a long time since the people had such a good government in the Western Cape as they have now. That's the government under the leadership of Helen Zille. The DA in the Western Cape is an excellent example of how to find a solution to a problem.
The South African Postbank Bill is an attempt to solve a problem without identifying the underlying cause - a totally wrong remedy for a long- standing disease, in a manner of speaking.
The ANC and its alliance partners must realise that the role of government needs to be reduced, not increased. What the ANC is doing at present is to further push up the pressure on the expenditure side of the state - more staff, more salaries, and so forth.
Let us be honest. State entities perform poorly - they do not perform well, to say the least, especially not the state entities reporting to the Minister of Communications.]
In this instance, one can name a few: the SABC, the Independent Communications Authority of SA, Icasa, and Sentech. In this regard, the Business Times wrote:
Sentech, the company responsible for bringing TV broadcasts to South Africans and which is on the verge of financial collapse, granted more than R117 million in contracts that did not go to tender over a period of two years. There are a lot of other examples.
The state entities in the Communications portfolio have no respect for the Public Finance Management Act, the PFMA. Given this track record, there can be no assurance that the Postbank will respect the PFMA. Hon Chairperson and members of this House, your decision to implement this Bill will be on your conscience for the rest of your lives. I rest my case.
Speaking at the Banking Association of South Africa's inaugural banking summit, Mr Michael Katz, the Chairman of Edward Nathan Sonnenbergs said, "The culture of management, rather than ticking boxes, will prevent a crisis." I further quote him from Fin24, "Whatever regulatory environment you have in place, if the culture of management does not recognise these issues, then you will not have a sound bank."
This Bill does not nearly touch the aching root of the problem. In SA Today of 10 September 2010, the leader of the DA, Helen Zille wrote:
Entrenched poverty is, without doubt, the greatest obstacle we must overcome if we are to become a successful and sustainable democracy in which people can live lives they value. Sustained economic growth is an essential, if not sufficient, precondition to overcome poverty. This means devising and implementing policies designed to make our economy more globally competitive so that we attract more investment and create more jobs. Every country that has sustainably lifted its poorest citizens out of poverty has done so by becoming more competitive.
The DA's view is that a government-owned and controlled bank of this nature is not required, and is open to mismanagement and the misappropriation of funds. In this event, taxpayers will be required to serve as the lenders of last resort and fund another failed and unprofitable state-owned enterprise. The DA will not support this Bill. I thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]
House Chairperson, the accessibility and affordability of banking services have been the subject of many a debate in our developing country. Despite the many challenges that cannot be ignored and concerns that one might raise, the principles of the South African Postbank Bill, which will provide basic banking services at affordable rates and which will be accessible through post offices in almost every town and village of South Africa, could fill an enormous gap in the unbanked sector of our society.
We must remember that it has been calculated that up to 12 million people are in the unbanked sector, especially poor people and those residing in rural areas. Cope therefore supports the Bill, but we want to raise some concerns.
We believe that state intervention that compels banks to break economic rules and procedures, that provides uneconomic and high-risk services and that is self-destructive will lead to more taxpayer money having to prop up the Postbank. Talk of the nationalisation of banks, which has recently been mooted by some elements in the tripartite alliance, is therefore very irresponsible. We trust that the hon Manuel and Minister Gordhan will be able to explain to their vociferous young partners in Durban that that would be a recipe for disaster. Therefore, Cope believes that ... [Interjections.]
Chairperson, is the member willing to take a question about nationalisation in the UK?
I will take a question at the end of my speech, thank you.
No, that will be too late.
Therefore, the Postbank Bill will be the better option. However, we must remember, however positive and idealistic the concept may be, the road ahead is littered with dangerous potholes. This can result in a type of management and financial crisis that we have recently seen in the case of the Land Bank - which has now recovered slightly - Eskom, Ithala Bank and other state-owned enterprises. And no matter what the young gentleman from Limpopo might argue, universal economic wisdom and experience throughout the world and throughout history indicate that governments, by the very nature of their being, rarely succeed in operating a business enterprise without regular state bailouts, and are always prone to endemic mismanagement and corruption.
But because we have deliberated vigorously, we have moved in and improved very specific sections of this Postbank Bill today to ensure that we have good governance in place, that we have controls that will limit conflicts of interest and that we have made criminal certain actions of board members. We can confidently say today, as Cope, that we can support this Bill because we realise the needs of people out there in the rural areas who do not have access to banking services. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Chairperson and hon members, I do not serve on this committee. My colleague the hon Rev Zondi does, but I do come here on behalf of the IFP to unreservedly support this Bill with a clear conscience. [Applause.] As we have heard from the Minister, this Bill ushers in a new era of personal banking and financial services, an era in which personal banking and financial services will be available and accessible to every South African.
Now, we have heard the argument as to why this shouldn't go to private banks. Why shouldn't private banks do this? Private banks and their accessibility in rural areas is something that leaves a lot to be desired. They are few and far between in the rural areas. In fact, many of them have closed down agencies and do not even provide ATMs in the rural areas. So, I do not believe that we should be relying on private banks; we should rather use this as an initiative to promote economic growth, especially amongst our people in the rural areas. [Applause.]
As you walk into Parliament, you notice the Postbank and a sign that says: Post Office Savings Bank. The fact that this should be savings driven has been emphasised, but what I am afraid of is that a culture of saving does not seem to be inculcated in our younger society nowadays. When I was in class some 50 years ago and when I first went to school, the principal of the school used to sell us stamps for which we used to pay a tickey each, and we used to stick those stamps on a card. When the card was full, we would take it to the Post Office where they would enter one pound in our bank. Fifty years later, I still have my savings bank account and my book with me.
Hon Minister, I don't see any Ministers of Education here in the House. Maybe they should start inculcating a culture of saving amongst the youth, even if it is 50 cents or one rand a week. As they grow up, this culture will be inculcated in their minds. [Applause.] This is something that we hope the Postbank encourages and does, and that it works very closely with the education sector. We will support the Bill. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
House Chairperson, hon Ministers present here today, Members of Parliament, the need for the establishment of a Postbank that will cater for the needs of the majority of the people who are underbanked and unbanked has been identified as a central pillar in our efforts to integrate our people into the mainstream economy.
On World Post Day, Monday, 19 October 2009, the Minister of Communications, Gen Siphiwe Nyanda, stated that, I quote:
The Post Office has begun the process of corporatising the Postbank, with the chief objective of providing underserviced communities access to vital financial and related services and thereby contributing to economic and social development.
Indeed, the proposed legislation seeks to uplift the socioeconomic conditions of our people, in particular the rural poor who have been previously disadvantaged - a better life for all!
We have interrogated the merits of creating a South African Postbank Limited that will cater for the majority of the people whom the commercial banking sector classifies as a risk and unprofitable. We have given the adoption of this Bill the thumbs up.
Now that we are at the stage of registering the Postbank it is, of course, important to realise that the Postbank is envisaged to be an independent state entity under the oversight of Parliament, and that this is the final stage of an evolutionary process that was occasioned by the White Paper on Postal Policy of 1998. We therefore support the initiative to complete the process, since we have not found any contrary reason to deviate from the cause of creating an independent bank of the people.
However, it is our humble hope that the Postbank has developed full institutional capacity to be transformed into a fully fledged bank, able to provide all banking services, including the provision of credit, and that all proper management controls are in place to ensure that it does not collapse like the other small banks that have gone that route before. This is because the commercial banking sector, with which they will be competing, is highly competitive and this bank shall be made to operate within the parameters of the banking laws of the country.
As stated in the Bill, the newly corporatised SA Postbank Limited will use the staff of the Postbank. It is our humble hope that these staff members will be adequately trained for the administration of the added responsibility that comes with a new mandate.
In the area of providing financial services, there is no room for error. We therefore wish to pose a challenge to the two departments that are tasked to oversee the process of registering the bank, namely the Departments of Communications and Finance, to ensure that this matter is not left unattended. It is also important to note that in Eastern Europe some postbanks were established with good intentions, but collapsed owing to, among other things, premature privatisation strategies.
During the South African Postbank Bill hearings, Cosatu also expressed the view that corporatising the Postbank would pave the way for its privatisation. In this regard, a very crucial issue that emerged during the deliberations was the need to protect the currently marginalised groups from being excluded from exercising financial services once the SA Postbank becomes a fully fledged bank.
Subsequently, the committee included the following provisions in clause 2, which culminated in the objects of the Bill, with the aim of, among other things: "expanding the range of banking services and developing into a bank of first choice, in particular to the rural and lower income markets as well as communities that have little or no access to commercial banking services or facilities".
Sustainable financial service systems for the poor are crucial because they attract a large section of people who have been excluded from the banking system. Any institution that is able to develop ways of serving the poor at minimal risk has the potential for a profitable market. There are too many people out there who require the services of the banking sector but who otherwise do not qualify to hold bank accounts owing to their status as low- income earners. This is a market on its own.
The lack of access to banking services has disadvantaged many people, as some have to have their wages paid in cash over the counter, as opposed to direct credits into accounts. Even when they are paid through bank transfers, most of them are forced to withdraw all their earnings because of the distance between their areas of residence and the banks.
In conclusion, we support the route of using the option of the state actually rendering the service itself, rather than finding ways to incentivise the private sector to invest in rural areas.
A new era of hope for the poor has dawned and ushers in their active participation in financial markets. Our responsibility as hon members of this House is to be honourable enough to go out there, to inform, educate and popularise this newborn South African child.
There can be no justification to oppose such a progressive move that will benefit the rural masses of the population. The ANC supports this Bill. [Applause.]
Madam Chair, we welcome the South African Postbank Bill with the fervent hope that it shall not suffer the same demise that has befallen other state-owned enterprises. We hope that South Africa will finally set up a banking service that will service the poor and those with low incomes, in particular.
It is, however, not clear why there is a provision that allows the new Postbank to operate as a company before it complies with the Banks Act. It is imperative that, as we establish such entities, we also insist on uncompromising adherence to existing legislation. The UCDP accepts the Bill. Thank you. [Applause.]
Hon Chairperson, Ministers and Deputy Ministers, hon members, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, it is indeed an honour for me to be part of this historic occasion to present the South African Postbank Limited Bill to Parliament. This Bill, introduced here today by Minister Siphiwe Nyanda, was a collective effort over several months of hard work by several stakeholders.
Building on what Minister Nyanda stated in his introduction to the Bill, this Bill has huge social and economic potential to transform the lives of our people, particularly the unbanked in the rural areas of our country. It speaks to achieving some of the Medium-Term Strategic Framework goals, like creating cohesive and sustainable communities, spurring rural development and developing economic and social infrastructure. It will provide access to institutional capacity to the many that are deprived of such services.
The Postbank will further strengthen the entrepreneurial culture and savings initiatives of our people. It provides a platform for the integration into the mainstream economic activities of, for example, the youth and rural women who are the most oppressed in our marginalised society.
Institutions that have acted as insurance against poverty and the maintenance of social cohesion, such as burial societies, stokvels and women's social clubs, will benefit greatly from the creation of this Postbank. It will also add value to the already productive activities of our people, such as small-scale agricultural projects, crafts and home industries, and trade and commerce.
Furthermore, through its expansion, the Postbank will advance the government's goal of job creation and human resource development. This includes sectors like front-desk services, information and communication technologies services and product development.
I would also like to thank hon member Kilian for the warning that she has given to us. We want to assure her that we have laboured diligently by building the necessary safeguards into the legislation to protect this bank from corporate mismanagement. You will find the clauses on corporate governance, in respect of both the board and the executive of this banking institution, to be onerous, strict and punitive in the event of any foul play.
We crafted this Bill to send a clear message that this is not an ordinary bank, but a bank with a heart and a clear socioeconomic mandate to uplift the rural and lower income groups and markets.
The Postbank will impact greatly on our society, and its success will strengthen the self-sufficiency of our people, as well as further expand the flourishing of an entrepreneurial culture.
The extensive and proven infrastructure of the Post Office provides the Postbank with the necessary capacity and possibility for success. We all have a collective responsibility, in terms of our oversight as Parliament, to ensure that this bank achieves its goals and objectives in the foreseeable future.
I want to state that voting against this Bill is to be anti-poor, anti the redistribution of the socioeconomic opportunities of our country, and downright in favour of a privileged society for the few and previously advantaged.
Once again, we would like to express our gratitude, thanks and appreciation to all stakeholders, namely Cabinet, the Department of Communications, under the able leadership of hon Minister Nyanda, the Department of Finance, the Post Office, the Portfolio Committee on Communications, led by the chairperson the hon Vadi, the state law advisers, as well as Parliament as a whole, who contributed so much in bringing this Bill to Parliament. Thank you very much, hon Chair. [Applause.]
Hon Chair, hon Ministers and hon members, I rise in unconditional support of this Bill on behalf of the ANC. May I also thank everyone that played a role in drafting a Bill which at last, I think, is going to be very important in the future of this country, particularly as it relates to the poor.
When we started working on the Bill, as the hon Kilian and others have pointed out, we were very aware of the risk attached to a venture like this. We looked at other examples in the world, as our chairperson has already said.
For example, Japan and Germany, major industrial countries, started these state banks just after the war, and today they are huge conglomerates and enterprises, having focused on the poor, the needy and the disadvantaged in those societies.
Therefore, as we started working in the committee, all the parties were quite clear as to what the vision was in this regard. So, we want to thank everyone that helped us draft a Bill that, in the end, actually contained the risk that attaches to a venture like this. And, obviously, in that sense, one is very saddened by the last-minute turnaround of the DA.
The members of the DA in the committee co-operated very well throughout on the objectives of the Bill. It was at the last minute that they said that their caucus was not prepared to vote on this Bill, and today they have gone even further and we have seen the sleight of hand of their Chief Whip who tried to pretend that this was a money Bill.
I say "tried to pretend" because you don't have to be a genius to know what a money Bill is. You take this Constitution, you open it at section 77 and there the heading says "Money Bills". It doesn't say "Other Bills"; it says "Money Bills". [Laughter.] It tells you exactly what a money Bill is. Section 77 says that a money Bill is a money Bill if it "appropriates money"; "imposes national taxes, levies, duties or surcharges"; "abolishes or reduces, or grants exemptions from, any national taxes, levies, duties or surcharges"; or "authorises direct charges". Later, the section says that nothing else may be in a money Bill except those four issues; and elsewhere it says that only the Minister of Finance can introduce a money Bill.
Now, of all the submissions that Cabinet, the Minister of Finance, the state law advisers on this document, Parliament's tagging mechanism and the committee received, not a single person even vaguely referred to section 77 and this Bill being a money Bill. It is clearly not a money Bill. That was just a sleight of hand to try to stop this Bill.
Now, I don't understand this, because I would ask the DA members, those that are able to understand things, to take this Bill and read it. [Laughter.] Read it as it is now, and then tell me that this Bill doesn't target the poor and the marginalised and that we haven't looked at the risks and created mechanisms to try to deal with those risks.
Last week I read a whole lot of articles in the newspapers on how the DA was going to reach out to the poor. They buy people, so the media is now writing these things about the DA. [Interjections.] The DA is going to ... [Interjections.] You buy the media; your premier has said so. You go and pay them and say, "Give us space", and if someone else does that then you say, "Oh, that's terrible. This is the worst thing for democracy." Can I suggest that you buy more space and get more consultants, read this Bill, and then you will see a few things. [Interjections.]
Firstly, it is targeted totally and utterly towards ... [Interjections.] Oh, you know, you are such a ... You've got that grating voice, you know. You really ... [Applause.] [Interjections.] Why they made you the deputy president of the organisation, God alone knows.
Order, please! Order, hon members!
When we received the Bill we were worried like everyone else ... [Interjections.] No, I am not the Deputy Minister. I have been demoted, so don't worry about that. [Laughter.]
Obviously, I'm too stupid. I'm like a DA member. I am stupid, that's why. [Interjections.] Why don't you deal with the issues, Kohler-Barnard? You are always being personal. Why don't you go and say to foreigners that they are not welcome in this country; our people must kill them? Why don't you go and say that again ... [Interjections.] ... as you keep on doing that. [Interjections.]
Excuse me.
They are obviously trying to ...
I rise on a point of order.
Hon member, what is your point of order?
On a point of order: I would like that comment to be withdrawn. I have never in my life told anyone to kill anyone. I take the most gross ... Really! Really! I want that withdrawn please.
Ask your own members what they think about it.
It is totally, totally unparliamentary to suggest such a revolting thing.
I withdraw. I withdraw. Sit down, I want to go on. [Laughter.]
Chair, are you chairing this debate? [Laughter.]
Order, hon member!
I withdraw. Sit down.
Excuse me, House Chairperson, are you chairing the debate?
Order, please!
... because I don't take orders from the ANC.
Hon De Lange, order please.
Sit down. I withdraw.
You may continue.
I withdraw. Thank you. [Interjections.]
Order, please! Hon Davidson?
Madam Chair, I really think an appropriate withdrawal is in order. I would ask you that he withdraw those remarks. [Interjections.]
Hon member, he said he withdrew.
I've withdrawn, Chair. Can I go on?
Yes.
Thank you. One of the issues we were worried about was that the way the Bill was drafted, it created a commercial bank, and we were ...
Why were you fired?
Oh, Michael, shut up!
Order, please!
You know why I was fired. I was demoted, you idiot. [Interjections.]
Hon members, order please! [Interjections.]
Hon member?
I rise on a point of order, hon Chairperson. I submit that the use of the word "idiot" is unparliamentary.
Hon De Lange, could you withdraw the word "idiot".
I withdraw.
Thank you. Continue, hon member.
Would "those people who are deficient of certain intellectual capacities" be better? [Laughter.] Okay. [Applause.] Those are the people I am referring to.
Order, hon members!
What I was trying to say is that what we then did was look at the three major powers of a bank, that is, investing, lending and borrowing. And we then made sure that this bank would not have unfettered powers to lend, to invest or to borrow, because if it did, there would be a risk attached to it. For example, if this bank went and invested its monies in Greece or another country which has problems with its banking system, then you could clearly hit back at us.
What we have done is made those three powers subject to a policy passed by Cabinet and introduced in this Parliament to actually prescribe the lending, the borrowing and the investment powers of the bank.
The most important power you can give the Ministry and the executive is to set the parameters of policy - and all the opposition parties agree with this. So, if you don't like something - for example, what the Land Bank did: at one stage it started borrowing money for golfing estates - you would make sure that the policy spelt out clearly that that couldn't be done. You would make sure that it couldn't invest in certain places.
Hon member, your time has expired.
I was interrupted so much, but thank you, Chair. For those that are intellectually deficient, please continue with your heckling. [Applause.]
Hon Chair and members, firstly, I would like to thank the members who have risen on behalf of their parties to support this Bill. I would like to thank Cope in particular, even though their support was grudging because of their worries about corporate governance and the powers of the Minister and so on, but I think it is better than opposition or prevarication. Let me thank the IFP for their unequivocal support, and thank the ACDP as well.
I think the Deputy Minister as well as the hon De Lange have responded to some of the worries that the other members have pointed out with respect to this Bill, and have assured members that there are good safeguards in the Bill in order to ensure that there are very few risks or no risks at all to the savings that the poor will make.
I would like to respond to some of the issues that the DA raised. The ANC fought and won the election in 2009 with an overwhelming majority. In our election manifesto we promised the electorate to deliver on a mandate which prioritised rural development, poverty alleviation and economic growth, among other things.
The Bill is consistent with the mandate derived from the electorate. It will be an important catalyst for economic growth, and seeks to empower the marginalised communities of the country, which to most men and women are represented by the ANC and not the DA. The ANC speaks for the people of South Africa as a whole, but we speak in particular for the disadvantaged and the poor. The DA speaks for the advantaged class and the rich, and that is why they do not support this Bill. [Interjections.] The contention that the Bill gives the Minister too much power has become a familiar refrain in the discourse of the opposition. [Interjections.] They would rather that the power lies in some unelected entity where they would have an impact or influence.
The majority black government must be weakened by committees that supersede the executive authority of the elected majority party. But the Minister needs power, which she or he exercises through the Cabinet. [Interjections.] This Bill provides for the establishment of the Postbank as a financial institution, which should be governed as a bank, and the Minister will act with the concurrence of the Minister of Finance. I do not see anything amiss with that.
Policy for the Postbank must be informed by the needs of the developmental state and the priorities which our people mandated us to pursue, and we will do so doggedly and unflinchingly. We will not be lectured to on democracy and good governance by those we fought for and gave democracy and good governance to. We will not abuse the power that we get, and we will not deliberately create mechanisms that give rise to such abuse. [Interjections.]
We suffered such abuse and autocracy for decades, but we will not hesitate to get the power that we need to drive our developmental agenda. We cannot afford to be emasculated by pontificating and fine-sounding phrases which we know are not genuinely meant. I thank you. [Applause.]
Chair, I have a point of order. I did not want to interrupt the Minister, but I did feel that throughout his speech there was a level of noise coming from that corner, which was unacceptable, and I would point out to you that, because the microphones in that area are very close to the speaker - whereas on this side the Ministers and members are much further away - disruptions and heckling from that side totally disrupt the speaker. It has often happened to me that I have been unable to hear myself speaking. [Interjections.] I appeal to you, the Chair, and the Speaker to ensure that the noise levels coming from that corner do not disrupt the speaker, who cannot hear himself speak. I ask for you to make a ruling on this. [Applause.]
Thank you, hon member. Hon member, I did not want to disrupt the Minister either. There was also noise from the other speakers as well, because there was a lot of noise in this House. So, I do believe that when the voters are listening to the debates, they know what kind of people are representing them. Also, when I grew up ... [Interjections.]
What kind is that?
Are those the kinds of members that were elected by the people who always like to make a noise, rather than concentrating on what the speakers are saying at the podium?
I have a further point of order, Madam Chair. I think that when members ask you questions as they did now, it is an insult to the Chair and it is an insult to the House. I think you should ask him to withdraw that. [Applause.]
Hon Turok, the challenge is that the very same people who were making a lot of noise - some of whom were the Chief Whips and the Whips - are the ones who have to maintain order in this House. I believe that all political parties have to take the responsibility to advise or to train their Whips on their roles, irrespective of whether it is a Chief Whip or just a Whip. Could you take your seat, hon Ben Turok.
Madam Chairperson, I rise on a point of order: When the Minister attacks us by saying that we represent the advantaged, when the Minister himself relishes staying in a five-star hotel, that is fundamentally hypocritical, and we have every right to object. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
Hon member, that was not a point of order. The challenge is that some of you were provoking the Minister, and you were even provoking other members. [Interjections.]
If you don't know what is meant by "provoke" then you have to look it up in your dictionary. That's the unfortunate part of this.
Hon Chairperson, I want to ask whether the member on that side is the Chief Whip of the Opposition party. I just want to be sure.
Hon member, could you please take your seat.
Debate concluded.
Bill read a second time (Democratic Alliance dissenting).