Chair, the question relates to the comparison between public and private schools in terms of quality. The answer is that this is something that cannot be compared, Baba uMpontshane, because there is no conclusive evidence to suggest that the quality of education provided by independent schools is better than that in public schools.
What we actually have is that 75% of the success in the sector comes from public schools. You have public schools like Westerford High, which can compare very well with any private school.
I don't think that is the issue. We have lots of very good public schools. You have your schools like Mbilwi Secondary and Westerford High, and all of them are public schools.
You have the worst of private schools, which are your fly-by-nights. So, it is not a matter of whether it is public or private. For me, the issue is to make sure that we provide quality education for all our children across the cultural, racial and geographical sectors. That is where we have a challenge.
The main thing is that all the programmes that we are trying to put in place are really not looking at the comparison between private and public, as such. Indeed, it is a fact that in other communities and other areas we are confronted by challenges in education because of infrastructure backlogs. That is why we have the Accelerated Infrastructure Development Plan to address that.
We have problems with management and leadership in schools. Again, those are the issues that determine whether we get quality or not. It is not whether they are public or private schools. I thought I should just clarify that - that we have a number of very good public schools. It is not whether they are public or private, but it is whether we get quality or not.
The short answer is that we have, indeed, put in place a programme to address all those challenges affecting us in producing quality education for all our learners. This programme includes private schools that are registered with us but produce zero results. They may be private, but some of them get zero results; so the programme is meant to address all the challenges within the sector, whether public or private. Thank you, Chair.
Chairperson, firstly, I must agree with the hon Minister that there are, indeed, pockets of excellence in some of our public schools. But the growth in the number of private schools does indicate that these schools are becoming more and more important as far as the achievement of quality education is concerned.
We, in the IFP, have always argued that there is no schooling system that can be better than its teachers. For instance, I do commend the Minister's statement two days ago in the programme where she came out very firmly and authoritatively against the disruptive activities of the Congress of South African Students, Cosas. Now, one of the factors bedevilling our education system is this excessive teacher union political activity.
Hon member, ask your question, otherwise your time is up.
Chairperson, when are we going to hear the same firm and authoritative statement by the Minister against what we call "political activism", as against "professional activism", that has come to characterise our schools? I thank you.
Chair, again, it is incorrect for Baba uMpontshane to say there are pockets of excellence when our education system is predominantly public.
Private schools only make up 5% of the sector. Public schools make up more than 95% of the sector. I am saying that 75% of what we see as success in the sector comes from public schools; it is not pockets. I admit, and I agree with you, that we do have lots of challenges in other parts of the sector where we are not getting value for money. I do not think it is an issue, really. We are agreed completely on that part.
What I want to correct is the fact that, basically, our education system is public. If 95% are public schools, you cannot even compare public schools to private schools. What are you comparing between 95% and 5%? What characterises high-end public schools which charge up to R200 000? It is means, right? So, it is more often an economic factor rather than anything else that you are comparing.
You are talking about those schools which charge R200 000 and comparing them to schools like Mbilwi Secondary, which is a no-fees school and which is amongst the top ten schools in the country. So, we are really comparing things that are not comparable.
On your second point, we as a sector are also quite worried, because our system stands or falls on the feet of teachers. And if we cannot get it right there, I think we might as well just forget it. That is why we are engaging with teachers patiently and consistently, because they are going to determine whether we succeed or fail.
Where we have high success rates, even in public schools, it is because we have good principals and good teachers, not good infrastructure, necessarily.
Denron Secondary, for instance, is in the Top 10 schools. It is a rural school with nothing, but because there are good teachers and good principals, they are performing quite well.
I am spending lots of my time engaging with teachers across the sector; it is enough to say that if we are to succeed, it depends on them. We are working very closely with them, but as you say, also making sure that we begin to be very firm in terms of incorrect behaviour by teachers. If it breaks, it breaks, but we cannot have a situation which is loose and we hardly know whether we are coming or going. That, definitely, is the direction that we are taking, to say we strengthen the contradictions, and the contradictions may produce a different result, but we cannot keep a system which is unsustainable.
I have very bad teachers from other sectors, but because there is life after Parliament, we have to work with them as colleagues. I am sorry, Chair. Thank you. That is the answer. [Time expired.]
Chairperson, Minister, does the department have a strategy to identify specific teacher development needs and the ability of teachers to address specific problems in order to improve quality outcomes in our schools? Thank you.
Chair, I must say, I was quite privileged, because by the time I got to the department, my predecessor had convened a major teachers' summit which was attended by different stakeholders.
The summit came up with very good resolutions. We are implementing those resolutions in terms of in-service training, but also in terms of teacher training. So, I inherited a very good programme, I must say, and we are implementing it. [Applause.]
Chairperson, hon Minister, the quality of education is at an all-time low in the history of our country, and South Africans are looking towards the department and you to turn the situation around.
What are the interventions that the Minister will apply with regard to proper and effective school management, with particular reference to teacher discipline? Thank you.
Chair, I am not sure where the timeframe starts, because you cannot say it is at an all-time low. When I went to school, most of my counterparts, even those before me, will tell you that it could not have been better for other sectors of society.
We have major enrolment rates. We are leading in terms of Millennium Development Goals, MDGs, in terms of enrolment; so, it could not be better.
The fact we are not denying is that we are still confronted by a major challenge to be at the levels where all of us as a country want to be, but it is not that it is at an all-time low. We admit that we have major challenges.
In terms of teachers, do you want me to repeat what I have said to Baba uMpontshane? The system stands and falls on the feet of teachers. That is why we have a programme that we inherited. In addition, we are working closely with the unions to make sure that we can correct the major challenge that we have concerning the management of, and the quality of teaching in, our schools. So we are agreed.
Apologies, sometimes we get shunted in the aisle, and so I pressed the wrong button next to my colleague. Thank you.
Hon Minister, over the past two years, the Centre for Development and Enterprise, CDE, has conducted groundbreaking research into a highly significant development in South African education, namely the growth of low-fee private schools catering for poorer sectors of the population.
While many, including public officials, see these private schools as fly-by- night institutions, indications in this report are to the contrary. In addition, the view of parents is that these private schools are achieving better results, that the teachers are more accountable, more dedicated, and show greater interest in the children, etc, etc, and there are reasons for it.
What I want to ask is: Is the department looking at this report, and particularly, at the part where these schools are often faced with long and unreasonable delays in obtaining registration? A lot of them appear to be problematic because they cannot get registration. They have been waiting for years to be registered, and others live in fear of losing their registration and being shut down.
There may be something here that indicates we perhaps need to be supporting something that is working and is giving parents some kind of confidence. Thank you.
Indeed, Chair, I did read the report and did raise some concerns with the researchers, including the sample that they used to arrive at major conclusions. The sample is too low to draw the conclusions they have drawn, and I think they have accepted that it is actually methodologically quite problematic.
However, in terms of the substance of what they are raising I do not think we have difficulties. Indeed, private schools have provided a very good alternative for our people if they want to make choices.
We do support private schools as an alternative which people want for religious purposes, but also for financial reasons. If you have lots of money and you want to go and pour it out somewhere else, you can go to private schools, because we do have public schools.
It is a good choice for teachers. I do not think we have any difficulty with that. I even have no difficulty with the conclusions of the report, except that methodologically the sample that they were using to draw the conclusions is flawed. I do not think that there are fundamental problems with their conclusions. If parents choose to go to private schools, that is fine.
In terms of registration, provinces can register at a certain pace. When people submit something, you cannot register them before you have at least verified the points that are there.
I have worked in the province. There are lots and lots of problems with your fly-by-nights. In all fairness, you have to go and verify all the information before you can register a school. We had schools which unqualified people have registered; any other crook can register a school.
As the state, we have a responsibility to make sure that we have all the information, and that is where the delays occur sometimes. But as a principle, we have no problems with private schools. It is their right to choose. They are given that right by the Constitution, and it does not give us competition. They supplement the work that we do in the public sector.
Strategy to harmonise housing delivery and stabilise housing market
207. Ms B N Dambuza (ANC) asked the Minister of Human Settlements:
What strategy does his department have to (a) harmonise housing delivery in the country and (b) stabilise the housing market in order to attract private-sector investment in rural towns in view of the decline of economic activity in those areas as a result of urban migration? NO3126E
Chairperson, I would like to thank the Chairperson of our standing committee for this question. I must preface my answer by indicating that the earlier debate was around International Democracy Day.
One of the most important cornerstones of a democracy, beyond political democracy, is economic democracy. It allows people to have a better quality of life.
One of the most important requirements for a better quality of life for people is a roof above their heads. We live in this House, but as we go home, we all need a roof above our heads.
The question is about the harmonisation of human settlements and housing in South Africa. It is a very broad question and it requires a very broad answer with some specifics.
First and foremost our strategy in terms of the harmonisation of human settlements and housing throughout South Africa is driven by a project that we have appropriately named, "Human Settlements 2030". What does it speak of? It says that a child born today will be 20 years old in 2030. A child who is five or 10 years old will be 25 or 30 years old, respectively. Therefore, it requires that we should provide housing for the future; and the future is our children.
All these people who will be living beyond us in 2030 will be requiring flats, apartments, homes, cottages, stand-alone houses and so on. I hope to be there as well. Our strategy of Human Settlements 2030 provides for the youth. That is why we are involving the youth in what we call the Youth Build. We are including women in the Women Build - women in construction. As of last week, we are including the war veterans in the Vets Build.
The question referred to the harmonisation in so far as the attraction of capital to the rural areas is concerned. We all know that it is very hard. Capital does not migrate to places that are depressed. It is for that reason that a statement was made in this House by the hon President and also taken forward by the Minister of Finance, Pravin Gordhan, that R1 billion should be established as a guarantee fund to support those South Africans, who cannot gain access to home loans.
Capital will be attracted to the hinterland of the country if there are guarantees that people will repay the money. It is for that reason that we said in this House such a guarantee provides support for people who are in the police service, nurses, soldiers, blue-collar workers and teachers.
We saw most of those people demonstrating recently. That is how we will be able to utilise the public-private partnership, including financial institutions, as well as our guarantee fund to harmonise housing in South Africa. I thank you. [Applause.]
Hon Chairperson, I would like to thank the hon Minister for a comprehensive response. You have raised a very critical point on the issue of a R1 billion guarantee fund as a follow-up question. I would like to check how far the department has managed to go in so far as publicising the information to the society as a whole.
The second point is around the issue of the private sector. We know that despite all the calls by the government, there has always been a reluctance by the private sector to invest in rural areas, especially participating in state subsidy programmes. My question is: Can the Minister give his assurance to this House that the private sector is now ready to come to the party after the guarantee fund? Are there any mechanisms in place in the department to ensure that the national objective is strengthened and enhanced, more especially for achieving Outcome 8? I thank you.
Hon Dambuza, thank you for that question again. In so far as publicising the availability of the R1 billion guarantee fund to the public is concerned, we started here in this House.
Furthermore, together with members of Minmec, I had an interaction for the day with all the five major banks in this country. We were deliberating about the participation of the banks behind the guarantee fund. We made it very clear to the banks that when they get involved, we are going to make sure that they do not loan money willy-nilly, anyhow. There has to be lending with responsibility so that we can be assured that the guarantee that we would be providing does come back to the state.
Furthermore, we are going to hold discussions with the farmers so that they also come on board. We have realised that whilst farmers farm on productive land, they also provide housing. But they are scared about the fact that people have security of tenure. That is why they are driving people off the farms. A lot of squatter camps or ghettos that we see arise from those farms.
We will, therefore, sit down with farmers and the business sector. I have already communicated with the Johannesburg Stock Exchange that we want to meet with the Top 200 companies. The President has been invited to open that meeting. I thank you.
Chairperson, the answer given by the hon Minister was indeed very broad. He referred to the human settlements in 2030. I am not sure if either one of us is going to be around come 2030; therefore, I am more interested in what happens between now and then.
Human settlements are very dependent on co-ordination and integration of services. On a question last week, the President replied in this House that the Presidential Co-ordinating Council meeting was held in May, and focused on matters relating to human settlements, specifically on obstacles identified. He further stated that processes were put in place to address this. Therefore, hon Minister, could you please define these processes and share with us in this House the timeframes for the implementation thereof? I thank you.
Chairperson, we thank the President for having been very much alive to the question of human settlements. After all, he is the one who proclaimed it here, moving housing into the arena of human settlements.
The President convened a special Presidential Co-ordinating Council dedicated to human settlements. It was not just a normal one. We agreed about co-ordination of efforts, meaning that all Ministries had to come on board. That is why we said where we build houses, and where people stay, should also be where they play. Where we live is supposed to be were we enjoy leisure and learn.
Therefore, the integration of various departments around human settlements is very critical; and we thank the President for that. I am saying that it is not just a broad general question, but these are issues that are very specific. However, further discussions will be around the increase of the budget. The current budget is essentially a housing budget which requires to be broadened so that it can be a proper human settlements budget. I thank you.
Chairperson, thank you for this opportunity. Hon Minister, I am more interested in the specific processes that were identified by the President - which you also have alluded to. You have not actually shared them with this House, other than just informing us about the allowance that should be made in the budget. I thank you.
Hon Steyn, you are a member of the portfolio committee. You are very much aware of the various specifics that were being discussed, arising from the special Presidential Co-ordinating Council. The President has gone to Russia, China and so on, and he will be coming back with a second one.
The national NGO will be having its meeting next week and we shall be getting further specifics. We are dealing with identifying the question of subsidies for rural areas; changing of hostel landscapes; deliberating about those who cannot even get a guarantee fund; and discussing the utilisation of the Home Loan and Mortgage Disclosure Act to control the whole question of housing in the country. Furthermore, we will be talking about how and where the Estate Agents Act will be residing in the future - something new that you didn't know. Maybe you would like to do your homework around that.
Therefore, it is very important to know that there are specifics around each of the things that I have mentioned. They will be coming with the settlement of the last meeting that we will be having with the special Presidential Co-ordinating Council 2.
Thank you hon Minister. The last opportunity goes to the hon W J Nelson.
Chairperson, mine is on the last question. No-one.
We have the last opportunity there. Does anyone want to ask the last supplementary question?
Position regarding reports of increased numbers of rapes and infections based on erroneous belief in so-called "Virgin Cure" for HIV/Aids
217. Mrs C Dudley (ACDP) asked the Minister of Social Development:
(1) Whether she has been informed of reports by protection agencies concerning the increase in the number of young girls and infants that are being raped and infected with HIV/Aids based on the erroneous belief in the so-called "virgin cure" for HIV/Aids; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so,
(2) whether she has launched an investigation into these reports; if not, why not; if so,
(3) whether she intends implementing awareness campaigns to counter this erroneous belief; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? NO3140E
Hon Chair, the response to hon member Dudley's question is as follows. The hon member's question is indeed very difficult to answer in this form as it stands right now.
I must say that we sought information from various sources regarding this matter of rape as indicated by the hon member. We sought information from organisations such as the United Nations Children's Fund, UNICEF, the Human Sciences Research Council, HSRC, Childline, the Child Welfare of South Africa, the Medical Research Council and the Department of Health.
When dealing with this horrendous issue of the rape of children, the police and health care providers do not ask victims why they were raped. Therefore, there is no reliable statistics on this issue so we do not have data on whether there has been an increase or, for that matter, even a decrease in the rape of children, which is informed by the myth that it will cure perpetrators of HIV and Aids.
I'm also aware that this phenomenon was rumoured to be occurring sometime around the year 2000. However, we can only assume that through the rapid expansion of our antiretroviral programme - which, by the way, is indeed the biggest in the world - and our awareness campaign, these assumptions ended or died down.
These campaigns were run with stakeholders and partners to address this myth. People were also made aware of the facts about HIV and Aids and the benefits of taking treatment.
Again, I stress that this is an assumption since the cause of rape is not something that people generally report on or are even asked to report on, by the way. We can only reliably report on this issue if and when a survey of perpetrators can be done, but, for now, we haven't done it. I am referring to a survey of perpetrators because asking victims about the issue turns to subject the survivors of sexual violence to secondary victimisation, which we always seek to prevent.
Hon member, given my first response on the first part of the question, I am sure you will agree with me that Question 2 and 3 then fall away. Thank you.
Thank you, hon Minister. Obviously the whole idea of "sex with a virgin" being a sort of cure basically predates what we have today. It is not a new thing; it is something that came from the Victorian era or whatever. So it is not about that kind of research.
What is actually happening - particularly around the time of our previous budget debates when we talked to a lot of the very same people that you spoke to and the NGOs that are working with children that are at risk and actually in crisis - is that there is still an outcry for a campaign to demolish the perception - which they call a lie - that sleeping with a virgin will cure Aids.
So it was not coming from me; it was coming from those who are actually in that situation. Those people feel that this lie is still out there. They feel that they were promised a campaign to demolish this lie. So the report that, daily, more and more young girls and babies are raped and impregnated with HIV/Aids because of the prevalence of this lie are the words coming from the people working with these children and babies on the ground.
The question is: Do we intend doing anything further in this regard or are we putting this to bed? Seriously, this is a cry coming from the people who are right there at the coalface.
Hon Chair, the hon member does indicate that this is actually a lie, in her own words. We are discussing a lie, apparently. The question from the hon member is: Have we been informed of reports from agencies regarding the increase in the number of young girls and infants that are raped?
It does appear in the question that it is a fact when, in fact, the hon member is referring to a lie. It is a lie; it is a rumour. It is only after we have done the survey, which I have referred to, that we will be able to confirm this to be a fact.
Let me address the issue of a campaign. Our programmes in the department - not only in the Department of Social Development, but also in the Departments of Basic Education and of Health - do address this question of rape, and many other programmes that relate to HIV and Aids and protection against it for people. However, we cannot definitely say that this myth, which the hon member calls a lie, is actually a fact. Our programmes and campaigns continually address these matters. We will work with those NGOs and protection agencies in order to continue to mount these campaigns. Thank you very much.
Chairperson, firstly, let me thank the Minister for the manner in which she has responded to the question. Rape is a gross violation against human rights, especially against women and more so against children.
It is, unfortunately, still happening in our society and can never be taken lightly. We would, therefore, be grateful if the Minister would inform us what types of programmes the department has in place to assist victims of sexual abuse. And what types of programmes are run to inform communities on the rights of children? Thank you.
Hon Chair, we have recently launched the Children's Act and called upon all agencies and NGOs that we are working with to ensure that we all mount campaigns against the abuse of children and rape, and any other form of abuse, by the way. So there are programmes in that piece of legislation which we will implement concurrently or together with all those NGOs.
We want to thank those NGOs, in particular, for the work that they are doing. There are many of them - for example, we have the Child and Youth Care Workers and many other NGOs - that are working with us to mount this campaign.
There are programmes that we also engage in, namely home-based community care and support care for all other programmes on the protection of children.
All those services are actually in terms of that Act, and they are currently being implemented. Thank you.
Chair, arising out of the Minister's answers, my question to the Minister is: Are there any timeframes set for the implementation of these awareness campaigns?
Who will be liable for implementing and monitoring them, bearing in mind that NGOs are already underpaid and, as we know - it seems to me it is a national crisis - many NGOs have not even been paid for the last couple of months? Thank you.
Chair, there are no timeframes for implementation of programmes; campaign programmes are ongoing. There is a question about the funding of NGOs which we have to respond to today. I would really prefer to respond to the issue of payment of NGOs under that discussion. Thank you.
Particulars regarding (i) state patients transferred to private hospitals during recent public service strike; (ii) any deaths among state patients as a result of the strike; and (iii) steps taken against any public servant whose strike action led to the death of any patient
193. Mr M Waters (DA) asked the Minister of Health:
(1) Whether any state patients were transferred to private hospitals during the recent public service strike; if so, (a) how many, (b)(i) from which hospitals and (ii) to which hospitals were they transferred and (c) what is the expected cost to his department of transferring state patients;
(2) whether any state patients died as a result of this strike; if so, what are the relevant details;
(3) whether any steps have been taken against any public servant defined as providing essential services whose strike action lead to the death of any patient; if not, (a) why not and (b) when will such action be taken; if so, what steps have been taken in each case? NO3110E
Hon Chairperson, the first question is about the number of people who were referred to private hospitals during the strike. The figure we have at our disposal is 1 220 patients from Gauteng and North West. The Western Cape and the Northern Cape confirmed that they never transferred anybody to any private hospital during the strike. We do not have any information yet for the other provinces. We are still checking.
Until we are sent invoices, it will not be easy to guess how much these transfers are going to cost the state. This would just be a very wild guess. We will not be able to enter into that.
On the issue of how many people died during the strike, I am sure we are very much aware that this strike had many unique features, which some of us have never experienced in our lifetime. Perhaps even the oldest members of this House have never experienced what we have seen, so the issue of identifying which people died during the strike is a very complex one. It is something not to be taken lightly. One of the main reasons why this is the case is that even during times when there is no strike, to determine the cause of the death of somebody is not a matter to be taken lightly.
That is why in some instances we hold inquests, which are headed by judges or very highly professional people. We do postmortems. Some hospitals, on an everyday basis, do what they call mortality meetings, where they call professors to come and determine the cause of death because one can't just stand up publicly and say that a particular person was killed by such and such a thing. As a country, we went through these three weeks which were very complex. Obviously, because of the complexity, a lot of complex and abnormal things might have happened, including death. But I can't sit down and point out certain things. There are obvious cases, of course, like the nurse who was hit by a brick.
If she had died, it would have been directly due to strikers because she was attacked by them. We had other cases whereby people were dragged out of theatres. You would remember that I came out publicly and said that this was murder. I came out publicly and said that if one was undertaking an operation and the strikers came to drag out the people who were conducting the operation, this was murder.
However, you are aware that nobody died due to that because the doctors who were performing operations where this happened stood up and said, "You'd rather have to kill us!". They refused to leave those patients alone. The perpetrators tried but they never succeeded.
The other complication we had was that, for instance, the biggest hospital in the Southern Hemisphere, Chris Hani Baragwanath, has 30 deaths on any normal day. But during the strike, the deaths went down to 18 and are now back at 25 after the strike.
You may argue that most people might have died at home and did not come to the hospital. How will that be determined? So, this is a matter that needs very thorough consideration, and we are still doing that. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister, for that reply. Minister, this is the second time in three years that essential services and hospitals have gone on strike, and in fact this time it was a violent strike. You even had to get a court order prohibiting them from going on strike.
There have been numerous deaths which occurred as a direct result of the strike, and they have been reported in the papers. I hear what you are saying, that it's very difficult to ascertain the exact number of these deaths. But just to give you an indication, the chief executive officer of Doctor George Mukhari Hospital stated in the media that at least 10 deaths at his hospital alone were due directly to the strike - directly. These deaths could have been avoided, and they should be viewed as culpable homicide.
My question pertains to paragraph 3 of my oral question, Minister. Despite having a court order, union bosses continued to encourage and promote workers in essential services to go on strike, violently so. Will your department take any legal action against the union bosses and individuals who are found to have gone on strike and used violence in the process? Thank you.
Chairperson, what I said is the truth. If the chief executive officer of any hospital stood up and said there were five deaths due to the strike, he needs to stand up to determine that. I am talking scientifically here - that even during normal events, to determine somebody's death you need to hold an inquest and take note of many other observations.
Does this mean that if there were 10 deaths in a hospital during a strike those deaths were necessarily due to the strike? That's a very tricky thing. But the fact that he said this even to the media does not necessarily determine that I must come to this House and say that in George Mukhari we had 10 deaths and in that hospital we had 5 deaths. I am just saying that this is an issue that will need a very thorough determination and inquest.
On the issue of essential services workers, you are aware - and this has been in many papers - that there was an issue about doctors who were on strike. No doctor went on strike. Nobody! There is not a single doctor who went on strike for the whole three weeks. But the newspapers reported on this everyday.
They showed them toyi-toying even in cartoons, but all of them were at work. I worked with some of them for the whole night. They never went on strike, and they declared it to be so.
We now come to the issue of nurses and the Democratic Nursing Organisation of South Africa, Denosa. Officially, Denosa never called for a strike. We spoke to them and they said they never called for any strike, but that they were being stopped and intimidated. Many of the health workers in essential services will actually stand up and say so.
Now, you are aware that the issue of essential services and the service level agreement is a contested issue. It is still being debated in the Chamber at this point. I can't give the final results here.
People are saying this issue has been on the table for the past 10 years, since long before some of us were there. They say there was no general agreement about essential services. It was intended that if there are essential services, there must be a minimum service level agreement. This is still an issue of debate. So, as a department, we have not yet reached finality that so-and-so were on strike and that they were supposed to render an essential service, so they must be punished. But I know statutory bodies do so ... [Interjections.] [Time expired.]
Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, despite what you are saying in terms of the issue of essential services, I know that Denosa says they did not go on strike, but there are nurses who went on strike because on TV some of them were saying this did not matter and that saving lives was something that used to happen during the times of Florence Nightingale; this time round they did not care what happened.
The issue is, even if we talk about essential services, there are people who are supposed to agree that they are part of essential services. But their behaviour, conduct and statements indicate that they don't believe or care about being part of essential services.
What is the department doing, or what are you doing, hon Minister, to ensure that we enforce discipline with regard to those who defied legislation in terms of essential services?
Hon member, I have just informed you that this issue about essential services and the minimum service level agreement is still under debate. If you know any health worker who stood up publicly and mentioned what you have just said, bring them forward so that this can become a criminal issue. Yes, bring them here and say who stood up.
I'm aware, for instance, that the DA went to court and reported somebody and said that the person had stood up publicly in the media and said this kind of thing. They provided evidence and also indicated that the person must be charged. I want you to do this today rather than throwing it back at me.
I mentioned, for instance, the fact that I was told there were student nurses who went to operating theatres to drag other nurses out when somebody was undergoing an operation. I said they must give me names. I will fire them here and now; they can't be health workers. This is because you can't have a health worker who kills. But I am still waiting for that to this day.
What you are saying is what you read in newspapers. The real thing that indicates the people who did this has never been put on my table. If this can be done, we will certainly take action.
The nursing council also stood up openly and said the same thing. So did the medical council. They said that if any health worker who is registered with us is found to have committed such an act, they will take them to disciplinary hearings and may actually take them off the roll.
This process can still take place, provided names are brought in. What you are saying is what you read all over the papers, or what you might have heard over the radio. [Applause.]
Thank you, hon Minister. There is a very difficult part here which you have partially answered. It says that if somebody says people died due to the strike, this makes it an unnatural cause of death and that this requires that you do a post mortem. The question that I am asking, which you have partially answered, is whether you would be able to do post mortems on all these people, even those that have already been buried? [Laughter.]
The second question, hon Minister, is that we know that strategies and measures were taken by the department to make sure that the impact of the strike would not be too bad and that there would be service delivery.
In your preliminary assessment, could you possibly tell us how these measures helped you, knowing very well that you yourself actually did a caesarean section in one of the hospitals to try and assist in the situation? But what I am not going to tell you, Minister, is that we used to judge how good people were in doing caesarean sections by the time they took ... [Interjections.] Thank you. [Time expired.]
Thank you, Chairperson. It is true that emotionally you can stand up and say we lost 100 people during the strike. You could easily say that and point out the people who were buried. But I am talking scientifically here in terms of procedures. Otherwise I could also be giving nonfactual information to the gallery by saying 1 000 people died and that the people who were on strike killed them. I am trying to give scientific facts here about what I know.
In terms of measures, they did help a lot. Members of the public were excellent - those who came in and helped in hospitals. That is why a hospital like Chris Hani Baragwanath became a centre where everybody went to.
At one stage, they successfully did 90 caesareans a day, which has never happened before. People from all over the place rushed there because the measures that had been put in place at the hospital were such that it was running like a normal hospital.
We had such situations all over the country where the measures that were put in place - members of the public - normalised the situation. Due to the army, the situation never became as bad as it could have been. Thank you.
Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, I would like to know whether the department has any contingency and viable plan should the strike resume due to the fact that no agreement with the unions has been reached during the current negotiations, even after two weeks. Thank you.
Well, you are aware that during the strike - even though we were caught by surprise - we did have contingency plans with the army. We have called on MECs on Friday this week to get a review so that we can see where we have gone wrong and then be able to draw up fresh contingency plans. So, we are not taking any chances. We are meeting with all MECs in the country on Friday, specifically for this purpose.
Dealing with water and sanitation backlogs in schools
211. Mr Z S Makhubele (ANC) asked the Minister of Basic Education:
Whether her department envisages dealing with backlogs regarding water and sanitation in schools; if not, why not; if so, what (a) is the current status and (b) measures are being implemented in this regard?