Chair, I just wanted to check with the Minister whether Parliament should brace itself for budget overruns, which will be affected by the legal cost emanating from cancellations of the police rental contracts.
Chairperson, that is not the understanding. We are relooking that matter and if there is a need for an update on things which got out of hand, we will talk about budget overruns. But, for now, we are not anticipating that problem. Thank you. [Applause.]
Vote No 8 - Women, Children and People with Disabilities:
Chairperson, we want to know why Parliament should support an increased allocation when this department has only delivered on average 16% against set targets in all its programmes, and has also spent R7 million in seven months on travelling expenses. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: Chairperson, this department has grown. It has a director-general, three deputy directors-general, and it is now rolling out its programmes. I am surprised that the members pretend they do not know this. At our last meeting of the Portfolio Committee on Women, Children and People with Disabilities, I was congratulated on receiving an unqualified audit from the Auditor-General for turning around this department. The members from all the parties have acknowledged that they understand what the role of this department is.
I also want to assure the hon member that travel was out of hand and we have dealt with that issue. We have turned it around. That is why the Auditor-General is happy with the systems that we have put in place and has given us an unqualified audit. I thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]
Vote No 10 - National Treasury:
Chairperson, according to the Special Investigating Unit, SIU, R30 billion leaks from the public financial system per annum. The Auditor-General has found that fruitless and wasteful expenditure continues to increase. This indicates systemic problems in the financial management of the people's money.
The National Treasury set an objective to present 150 training courses and workshops on the implementation of financial management reforms and trained 3 000 individuals to assist in this process. Thirty-one training courses were completed and 1 398 individuals were trained in the first six months to September 2011.
Will the objectives for 2011-12 be met and what improvements can we expect in the financial management of the people's money as a result? Thank you.
Chairperson, yes, the training targets will be met. Let me remind the hon member and, indeed, all hon members that, in terms of the Public Finance Management Act, PFMA, our financial management system is organised in terms of executive authorities and accounting officers that move across all national and provincial departments.
The primary responsibility for financial management lies with accounting officers and, when they report to this Chamber or committees of this Chamber and, indeed, to committees at provincial level, it is Parliament that has an important responsibility to ensure that expenditure takes place in the right way.
But, there is no doubt that leaks from our fiscus are unacceptable to all of us in this House. There is no doubt that the work of the Auditor-General and the SIU is absolutely crucial. But what we need to do a lot more of is get a new culture in the public sector and a new culture in the private sector - a culture which says that stealing taxpayers' money in one form or another, either by officials or by anybody else, is totally unacceptable. We will continue to tighten the financial management system as we go forward.
Vote No 1 - Presidency:
Chairperson, with regard to the legal fees, it is recorded that unforeseeable and unavoidable expenditure imposed itself and, therefore, some R20 million is freshly allocated for legal work. Other than the salary of Mr Hulley - who was recently appointed to the Presidency - what other new additional legal work has come up to require this amount of money?
PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chairperson, thank you, hon member. As you would know, when you run an administration, you are not sure when you'll be required to go to court for one issue or the other.
However, you would know that the promotion of access to information is also one of the responsibilities which we deal with. So, from time to time, cases arise which have to be dealt with through the courts. For that reason, in order to handle those matters, legal representation is needed.
Chairperson, hon Minister, are you saying that there is no clarity as to what percentage of this money will definitely be used and what percentage not? Because, if you are saying that you are just throwing R20 million in there and have no clue as to how it will be spent - maybe on this or maybe on that - then I would say that that is not how a budget is run.
PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY (Mr O C Chabane): Chair, as I said, some of these things are unpredictable; therefore you cannot say with precision. Sometimes you might actually not spend any of it, but sometimes you may be required to provide financial assistance if necessary.
Hon members, I'd like to ask for your co-operation. I have requested this at the outset of this process. Please indicate whether you want to put follow-up questions to the Ministers. At the moment no one is indicating this on the screen and it is very difficult just to see by a show of hands. So, I ask for your co- operation, please.
Chairperson, before you proceed. Are you saying that members must press the to-talk button before asking a question? Is that what you are saying?
Hon member, that is what I asked at the outset - that hon members should press the to-talk button so that it can be reflected on the screen.
Vote No 6 - Performance Monitoring and Evaluation:
Chair, Minister, the establishment of the Presidential Hotline in 2009 was a laudable initiative that, if properly implemented, could have made a real and tangible difference to the way in which South Africa's public representatives performed in government and could have contributed to the fight against corruption.
However, Minister, the Presidential Hotline has not lived up to its expectations. According to a parliamentary reply to a question posed by the DA, you noted that only 55 857 queries were resolved during the period September 2009 to 31 October 2010 out of more than a million calls registered. In the light of this glaring failure, how on earth do you justify allocating a further more than 16 and a quarter million rands for the purpose of the Presidential Hotline, when the money could rather been have spent on improving service delivery and the lives of our people?
PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY (Mr O C Chabane): Chairperson, the money required to run the hotline, as you would know, relates to a number of aspects: firstly, the salaries of the staff and secondly, the operations of the hotline. We believe that the hotline is valuable, particularly now that it is part of the monitoring and evaluation system. It assists us to pick up some of the issues which, in other instances, we would not have been able to pick up. It has been valuable for the work we are doing. So, we believe that the money is required for its sustenance. Thank you.
Vote No 14 - Arts and Culture:
Chairperson, Minister, in light of the desperate need for libraries in our communities, it is of concern that the midyear performance status of the number of community libraries that have been upgraded is only eight out of the projected 75. And only one of the projected 14 new community libraries has been established. Clearly, the grants are not being utilised by the different government spheres. What are your plans to improve the situation in order to meet the projected targets?
Chairperson, hon member, we are aware of that problem. We had a discussion with all the MECs of culture in the provinces who are responsible for libraries in order to speed up the process. As you know, we are not involved directly in the building of libraries. We transfer money to provinces so that they can do that. But we have discussed it with them and we are coming up with mechanisms to speed up that process. So it will be attended to.
Vote No 15 - Basic Education:
Chairman, of the additional amounts requested by the Minister of Basic Education, the worthwhile items are those that benefit learners directly, presumably including the infrastructure grants that amount to R190 million. Now the reason why infrastructure evokes a question is that the Auditor-General's 2011 performance audit found widespread wasteful and irregular expenditure in all the provinces where the ANC governs, except, of course, for Gauteng. Now we object, therefore, because the funds will be wasted, unless the Minister exerts provincial accountability. And so the question I ask is: Why is the Minister requesting funds and wilfully sending these funds to provinces that have become a black hole of wasteful and irregular expenditure?
Chair, we share the same sentiments with the member. As a result, I have instructed officials to speak to the Treasury so that some of these funds that we have requested should not be transferred to those provinces and that we will manage them together with Public Works. I am already in discussions with the Department of Public Works. We are setting up a special mechanism to deal, in particular, with the additional funds.
So, that was my view also that we can't send funds to provinces which up to now have not even spent what they were supposed to have been spending. I am attending to that and I agree with you that it can't happen that way.
Chair, hon Minister, early childhood development, ECD, is not yet available in all schools and all areas despite legislation requiring provinces to prioritise spending on this in poorer areas. As the world strives to achieve the UN Millennium Development Goals, early childhood is a growing focus area for achieving equity goals. The importance of ECD to the future calibre of our matric students and the nation's next generation of adults is critical. Insufficient resources therefore have been made available for human capacity for ECD support at all levels of government and the NGO sector. Will this be prioritised and will this situation be rectified? Thank you.
Chair, I hope the member does remember that we are only responsible for Grade R, not the entire ECD programme. The other parts of ECD belong to Health and Social Development. However, our plan or our commitment as this government is that by 2014 we would have rolled out the entire ECD programme. That is why we did not commit ourselves to say that we will do it by this financial year. We were quite aware that we would not be able to roll out the programme this year nor next year. Our plans are that by 2014 there should be coverage of Grade R.
What we are focussing on next year is improving the quality of the very practitioners, as well as working on improving the conditions of service of those practitioners. We will also make sure that we standardise the practitioners' conditions of service because different provinces have different conditions of service, for their practitioners and that is creating quite a number of problems in the sector. So, we are working on it. Thank you very much for the question. [Applause.]
House Chair, Minister, the additional resource for school infrastructure is very important. However, I just want to ask a question in terms of the budget. We also have to deal with the issue of about 50 mud schools that still have to be reconstructed. Are you certain that, in terms of the programme of reconstructing the 50 mud schools, there won't be an overrun in terms of what is allocated, given that we are told that there seems to be price collusion with the construction industry that raises the construction costs?
Chair, I can confidently inform the House that, in terms of the 50 schools, I have been receiving progress reports. They are on track. We have even started planning for the next phase of the 100 schools that we were supposed to do, not only in the Eastern Cape this time, but nationally. The plans are at quite an advanced stage.
We are quite aware and conscious of the fact that there are reports of price collusion, overpricing of schools and all sorts of problems. We have appointed an independent engineering and consulting company to help us in managing that. Furthermore, we have established a unit with professionals, civil engineers and quantity surveyors to help us manage and monitor what could be the price inflation. With regard to the 50 mud schools, I can assure the member that they are under construction. We are already making plans for the next 100, which is going to be on a national scale and not only in the Eastern Cape.
Chairperson, hon Minister, most of the time we find provinces struggling to implement what we call unfunded mandates. One of these unfunded mandates is the incentive which was promised to teachers who are teaching in rural areas-monetary incentives.
Angazi noma kungigejile yini uma ngibuka isabiwomali kanye nesibonelelo angiboni lapho izifundazwe zisizwa khona ukuthi zigcine lesi sithembiso esenziwa kothisha ukuthi bazokhokhelwa ubuchwabalalana labo abafundisa ezikoleni ezisemakhaya. Kwenzakalani lapha mhlonishwa? Ngiyabonga.
UNGQONGQOSHE WEMFUNDO EYISISEKELO: Sihlalo, inkinga yothisha abasebenza ezindaweni zasemakhaya ayikabikwa kangako ukuthi iyinkinga kodwa into engiyaziyo ukuthi siyakhuluma nezifundazwe ngoba sifuna ukuyiphendula lendaba yesibonelelo sasemakhaya ngoba iyasihlupha. Othisha basuka eLimpopo bathathe isibonelelo sasemakhaya bahambe amakhilomitha ama-2 beya esikoleni, bashayele amahora amabili ngoba bengafuni ukuhlala ezindaweni zasemakhaya. Ngakho sesicabanga ukuthi senze ukuthi into yokubaheha kube yizindawo zokuhlala, kungabi yimali ngoba imali ayikwazi ukuphathwa kahle.
Okunye bayakhetha ukuthi bayofundisa khona ezindaweni zasemakhaya uma esethole isikhundla esisesigabeni sesibili usephindela emuva ngoba uyazi ukuthi ngeke asakwazi ukuyijika, aphindele emuva esephethe isikhundla esiphezulu. Lesi sibonelelo sinezinkinga eziningi kungakho sixoxa ngaso ukuthi singenzenjani ukukhuthaza othisha ukuba bafundise ezindaweni zasemakhaya, bahlale khona hhayi emadolobheni. Bahamba ekuseni uma kushaya ihora lokuqala abasabambeki sebejahe ukuphindela emuva ngoba bahlala kude ekubeni befundisa ezindaweni zasemakhaya. Siyazama ukuyilungisa le ndaba ngoba ngendlela ebihleleke ngayo ayisebenzi kahle. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[I am not sure whether something has eluded me because when I look at the budget and the incentives, I do not see where the provinces are being assisted in keeping the promise that was made to the teachers who are teaching in the rural areas, that they were going to be given monetary incentives. What is happening in that regard, hon Minister? Thank you.
Chairperson, the issue of the teachers who are teaching in the rural areas has not been reported as a challenge yet, but what I know is that we are engaging with the provinces because we want to respond to this issue of the incentives as it is frustrating us. Teachers who come from Limpopo get the incentives, and drive for two kilometres to school; it takes them two hours to drive to school because they do not want to stay in the rural areas. Therefore, we now think that the incentives should be in the form of accommodation, and not money, because money is not handled appropriately.
The other thing is that they choose to go to the rural areas and once they are promoted to level two they return to where they were teaching. They know that a position cannot be reversed, so they return armed with a higher position. These incentives pose many challenges, and that is why we are talking about what can be done to encourage teachers to teach and stay in the rural areas and not to stay in the urban areas. They leave their homes in the morning and when one o'clock strikes they become very agitated as they want to go back home because they are staying far from their workplace - they are working in the rural areas. We are trying to work this thing out because it does not work well the way it is right now. [Applause.]]
Vote No 16 - Health:
I pressed the button.
I requested members to press the button timeously.
I did press the button.
I will now recognise the hon Singh.
Thank you, House Chairperson. The button is working and it was timeous. [Laughter.]
I just have a question directed to the Minister of Health, namely that I hope those involved in the revitalisation of hospitals and infrastructure are just as timeous in ensuring that these grants are utilised. We welcome the fact that this additional money has been made available for hospital revitalisation. The performance audit report of the Auditor-General on infrastructure leaves a lot to be desired, Mr Minister, in terms of the ability of many of these provinces to utilise these grants.
What I would like to know, through you, Chair, is what kind of stricter controls are going to be put in place so that those provinces that do not spend this money will have the money taken away from them? Although I did say that, it is not a solution, because people will suffer. What is the national Department of Health going to do to ensure that all our people have access to the same kind of medical care in terms of infrastructure?
Chairperson, yes, you are right, hon member. To take the money and keep it whilst people are suffering is what we are doing at the present moment. We have put up measures in dealing with that. One of the measures is that each and every Department of Health must at least have a resident engineer to oversee this work. At least five provinces have already done so. In the national department, we also have a unit headed by an engineer, which is also an infrastructure support team, and each is overseeing these provinces. All these engineers in individual provinces come together with the national one to form a team that will oversee the work. Since these teams have just been formed, we have not yet seen results from them, but soon we are going to see the results. Thank you.
Hon Chair and Minister, concerning the arrear rentals of about R30 million, which has got to be paid to the Department of Public Works, I just want to check as to how that happened and for how many months have these rentals been in arrears.
Hon member, I am not sure exactly over how long it happened, but, as I have said, some of these things happened because within the Department of Health we did not have a unit that deals with infrastructure problems, including those in arrears. Now that we have a team that is following up those things, we believe we will get the information and we also believe that they will never happen again.
Hon Chair and Minister, earlier this year, you acknowledged the twin problems of abortion advertising and misoprostol - the drugs given to girls and women to bring on a miscarriage. We know this places them at risk and that these abortions are taking place in the second and third trimester. We also know that these emergency miscarriages place strain on hospitals and the entire facilities and personnel which are then not available for other emergencies. I have been unable to ascertain whether urgent measures are being put in place to deal with these irregularities. I ask the Minister if it has been prioritised within this budget. Thank you.
I am sorry, Chairperson, I don't understand what her actual question is. I know she has got problems with abortions, etc. But what exactly is the question? I am sorry, I did not get the question.
Let me ask the hon member to repeat the last part of her question.
Sorry, hon Minister, as you have indicated it will be a priority, I would assume that funds would have been made available to ensure that it was prioritised. I say I had not been able to ascertain whether it has been prioritised.
What should be prioritised?
Hon Minister, can we just give the hon member an opportunity to complete her question. Hon Dudley, would you just get straight to the question, please.
Have urgent measures been put in place to deal with the irregularities that are happening in terms of abortion advertising and the free use of misoprostol drugs, which are tying up our hospital facilities and personnel? You did indicate earlier this year that you were going to put measures in place to deal with these things.
Oh! [Laughter.] "Ja". Now I understand, but, we don't advertise any abortions. What I complained about are the illegal adverts, which we see all over. When you move out in the streets, you will find some small posters with the name of the doctor advertising an abortion. That is a criminal offence because those people are not doctors in the first place, they are criminals who should be caught by the police. Yes, action has already been taken in the Durban area, where the MEC got rid of all those posters and requested the municipality to put cameras next to where they were. They found very young children hired to put back those posters and were taken to the criminal syndicates who sent them. Some of them were arrested. That was just in the Durban area. What we now want to do is to try and find what mechanism between us and the police can bring that to an end. In fact, it is definitely a serious matter.
Some of the children who died in hospitals and increased our infant mortality are children who died because they went to those criminal syndicates who induced abortion and sent them to our hospitals to go and die there. Therefore it is a crime like any other criminal activity. [Applause.]
Order! May I also make use of this opportunity to remind hon members that the questions put to the Ministers must be relevant to the adjustments that are being made to the budget and should not be general to other issues in the department that the relevant Minister is heading. Are there any further questions to the Minister of Health? None.
Vote No 17 - Higher Education and Training:
Chairperson, one of the reasons why the DA objected to the amount of money allocated to higher education and training earlier this year was because it was not enough to rescue the majority of universities and further education and training, FET, colleges from underperforming. This problem is not addressed by the medium-term budget.
The Walter Sisulu University that was created by merging three historically disadvantaged institutions is an example of an institution which received a hopelessly inadequate amount to effect its merger. It is referred to as a stillborn university. Its desperate state of affairs resulted in the situation where the department was requested to intervene on several occasions. Consequently, an administrator was appointed in October this year. What would the Minister do in future to prevent higher education institutions from suffering as a result of the inadequate appropriation of funds?
Chairperson, it is really unfortunate on the side of the DA, if not unfair, that they would not support this Vote because of unforeseen circumstances like universities or colleges that find themselves in trouble. Actually, no one plans for that. We are aware that the issue of former black universities and colleges that used to cater for black people is a very dire situation. Government has not been sitting back and not doing anything.
As a matter of fact, from 1994 we had earmarked grants for infrastructure and other facilities in an attempt to address the infrastructural backlogs. In addition to that, I have appointed a Ministerial Review Committee, headed by Mr Cyril Ramaphosa, to review the entire funding formula for universities in particular.
The funding formula has worked positively in some respects, but in others it has been more punitive to institutions that require more assistance. One of the terms of reference that I have put for the review committee is how we should escalate quite significantly the amount of funds that we allocate to universities that were serving the black population in the past.
We are not waiting for those results. In terms of the budget that is in our hands, we are already looking into how to increase the allocation into infrastructure for both colleges as well as universities, with a view to actually addressing these particular problems. That issue is a priority for my department. At the moment, we are prioritising institutions like the Walter Sisulu University that are facing serious troubles. Surely, I can't be blamed for appointing an administrator.
Fortunately, all the stakeholders agreed that we need an administrator in that institution. Really, we think it is just being an opposition for the sake of it, opposing this Vote just for the purposes of some of the things that cannot be anticipated, like institutions that are in trouble. Ngiyabonga. [I thank you.]
Hon Minister, the IFP is not opposing this Vote, but, hon Minister, we are looking for some specific answers in this case. Sometime this year, I asked a specific question to the Minister during question time about satellite colleges or campuses which the Minister has referred to as those that were for blacks.
In his response, the Minister was looking into the question of funding for these colleges. Moving around, we still find these colleges - to use the proper words - haunted, dilapidated, and nothing is happening. When looking at the budget, I didn't see any extra budget amount that would cater for these colleges.
Kwenzakalani Mphephethwa? Sasikhulume ngoKwaGqikazi, umhlonishwa wathi kuyalungiswa khona manje. Uma ungaya nje kusasa, kuyadabukisa. Akekho umuntu ongafundela kuleliya kolishi. Iphi imali mhlonishwa? Ake uyiveze phela, siyolekelela [Uhleko.] noma cela kulethwe imali sihambe siyolungisa. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[What happened, Mphephethwa? When we spoke about KwaGqikazi, the hon member said it was being renovated as we spoke. If you were to go there tomorrow, you would find it in a terrible state. No one can study in that college. Where is the money, hon member? Show us the money, so that we can help [Laughter.] or ask for money so that we can go and renovate it. I thank you.]
Chairperson, I hope you will protect me from the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans, because she insists that since Walter Sisulu University is in trouble, I must not call it by its full name. I must simply call it WSU and I should only call it Walter Sisulu when we are talking about positive things that are happening in that institution. I will try and abide by that. [Laughter.]
Bab'uMpontshane ngicela ukhumbule ukuthi lesi sabelomali esikhuluma ngaso, yilesi sangalo nyaka wezimali. Akusona esangonyaka ozayo. Kunezimali esizifake njengoba bengichaza, ukuze sinyuse ikakhulukazi, ingqalasizinda kanye nezinye izinto ezidingekayo kulezi zakhiwo zakithi.
Njengoba ngakuthembisa uzowubona umehluko kulo nyaka ozayo. Ngithemba ukuthi uzoqala umenyezelwe nguMongameli uqobo lwakhe, uMsholozi, bese umenyezelwa nguNgqongqoshe weZezimali ngoba njengamanje sisebenza udaba lokuthi lezi zindawo okungekho kolishi, okungekho lutho kuzona siya kanjani kuzona ukuyokwakha amanye amagatsha amakolishi akithi. Yileyonto esilwela ukuthi yenzeke uma kuqala unyaka ozayo.
Uma unyaka ozayo uqala, siza nezindaba ezinhle kakhulu zobuchwabalalana, wena khululeka. Okwamanje besisabheke lokhu kwangalo nyaka, othi wena awukuboni lana. Empeleni uma ubheka, kukhona. Sinezimali esizinike izifundazwe, ngoba manje nisateleka nifuna sithathe imali yamakolishi weMfundo ePhakeme kanye nokuQeqesha sinike izifundazwe izimali ukuze zikwazi ukuyosiza ekutheni zimiselele lama kolishi.
Into yokugcina engifuna ukuyisho ukuthi uMnyango wami njengamanje usuhambe zonke izifundazwe, ubheka lawa makolishi abekade esebenza ngaphambili kodwa angasasebenzi namuhla, kanye namakolishi afuna ukuvuselelwa. Okuyizinto zonke ezizongena kulobu buchwabalalana bonyaka ozoqala. Siyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Hon Mpontshane, please remember that this budget that we are talking about is for this financial year. It is not for the next financial year. As I have explained, there are monies that we added so that we can improve the infrastructure and other items that are needed in these buildings. As promised, there is going to be a difference next year. I hope that it will first be announced by the President, Msholozi, himself, and then by the Minister of Finance, because we are dealing with the matter of how we will get to the places where there are no colleges, where there is absolutely nothing, so that we can build other campuses. This is what we want to achieve come the beginning of next year.
At the beginning of the coming year, we will present good news on the budget, just relax. For now, we are focusing on this year's matters which you say you do not see. In fact, if you take a good look, you will see that there is something. Funds were allocated to the provinces, but you are still on strike. Now you want us to take the funds that were allocated to the colleges of higher education and training and give those funds to the provinces so that they can build those colleges.
Lastly, my department has been to all the provinces, looking for colleges that were operating before, which are no longer operational, as well as colleges that needed to be renovated; these are the things that are going to be included in next year's budget. Thank you.]
Chairperson, with regard to the funding formula for universities, can the Minister explain what his view is regarding to the Gerwel Report that sets out the parameters to affect higher education instruction in the mother tongue? I thank you.
Can you repeat that question, Mr Alberts?
With regard to the funding formula for universities, can the Minister indicate what his view is regarding the Gerwel Report initiated under the Mbeki administration that sets out the parameters to affect higher education instruction in the mother tongue, especially with regard to the Afrikaans language? The report stated that there should be one university in Afrikaans in the northern parts of the country and one in the south. I thank you.
Hon Chairperson, I think this is somewhat of a different issue altogether that doesn't arise out of this. Safe to say that one of the terms of reference of the review of the funding formula is actually to look at the issue of languages, especially the funding and support of African languages in the context where the teaching of some of the African languages in our universities is actually being threatened with closure, like IsiNdebele. At the moment there is only one department in the whole country with very few students. We are looking at how to save and strengthen that department.
By the way, our language policy is very clear. No institution should use language to discriminate and none should be allowed to use the issue of a single language in order to exclude people who actually do not speak that language. Universities in South Africa do not belong to language groups; they belong to the South African people as a whole. Thank you. [Applause.]
Thank you, Minister. I request that the questions that are asked to the Ministers should relate to the subject at hand, the medium-term budget, and not questions relating to matters that were in some other era, ten years ago or whatever. So please, let us try and keep the questions to the point.
Vote No 18 - Labour:
Chairperson, Minister, the finances of the Department of Labour are certainly improving, as the Auditor-General recently told us, but I must ask you about the Compensation Fund. In this mid-term budget appropriation there is a request for an additional approximately R26 million to go to the Compensation Fund.
My question is: Does that approximately R26 million relate to the Compsol court case, when it, on behalf of many clients, sued the Compensation Fund in order to get the payment of their medical expenses, etc, from the Compensation Fund? If the approximately R26 million does relate to that court case brought by Compsol, does the Minister believe it is correct that the taxpayer should be funding that court case as a result of a lack of good administration in the Compensation Fund? If it does not relate to that court case, can the Minister then explain why that R26 million additional budget amount is required for the Compensation Fund?
Finally, would the Minister agree that, as we are getting court cases against the Compensation Fund because they are unable to pay in time and properly pay people who do claim from the fund, it is time that we agree with the Compensation Commissioner when he requested that we should privatise the health care benefits of that fund? Thank you.
House Chair, the requested R26 million is not related to Compsol claims; it is to cover the cost of administering claims by public servants. That expense was not budgeted for. There was an increase in claims of injury on duty by public servants. That increase was not budgeted for by the department, and that is the reason why I have requested that amount of money.
The second question does not apply because it is not within the budget estimate that we are talking about today. Thank you, Chair. [Applause.]
Vote No 19 - Social Development:
The government and donor funding of services required under the Children's Act shows a serious shortfall in funding for essential child care and protection services. There is an urgent need to increase funding if we are to reach all children in need of care and protection.
Are you satisfied with the funding as it stands; and are we doing anything about that? Thank you.
Chairperson, hon Member, I think money will never be enough at any given time. The money that the government has towards the protection of children has been growing. We have a programme that looks into the first 1000 days of a child's life.
A number of departments contribute towards the 1 000 days - the health, education, and social development departments and local government. For now, we are happy that there is work that is going on, but the money is not enough. We need to continue trying to ensure that there is more money. Thank you.
Vote No 22 - Defence and Military Veterans:
Chairperson, I hear that it is at about this time of the year that the hon Minister does her Christmas shopping. Members of this House will be aware that the hon Minister is in the process of buying the hon Deputy President a very big Christmas present. We hear that the Minister is in the process of buying two business jets. We also hear that the Minister is in the process of leasing two business jets. All these jets will cost billions of rands. Would the Minister tell this House whether she really believes that it is justified to purchase business jets at the cost of billions of rands when so many of our people are poor and destitute?
Chair, I'm desperately trying to work through my documents to find out which item of the adjustments estimate the member is referring to. I thought you had ruled that we are talking about the adjustments and the matter before us, not rumours and speculations in the media.
However, the responsibility of the SA Defence Force, especially the SA Air Force, is to ensure the safety of the President and the Deputy President. That is the responsibility of defence forces all over the world. This will be the responsibility of the SA Defence Force in this democracy: to ensure that the President and the Deputy President are flown safely.
However, for your own benefit, hon Maynier, I have just returned from Oman. I went to the Souk, which is their market. I went shopping for Persian carpets because I am informed that they still fly as they did so many years ago. I am thinking that perhaps it might be cheaper to get a Persian carpet for the President and the Deputy President instead of an expensive jet. I don't know what else you expect them to use. They have a big responsibility of ensuring that you and I as well as this democracy are represented all over the world.
I want to repeat what my spokesperson said to you, which I thought was very apt. In the apartheid government, nobody wanted anybody from South Africa. No President of this country ever flew anywhere nor was there any need for them to fly. We are now the leading country on this continent. Every time there is a need, we are there with this President to make sure that we solve the problem. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Chairperson, on page 197 of the book there is a declared saving of R600 million on air defence owing to delays in the strategic defence procurement programme. Could the hon Minister perhaps just give us more information on that? Thank you.
Chairperson, the strategic defence package is managed on our behalf by the National Treasury. If there is a delay in the production of a particular item that had been ordered, we hold back the money. In this particular case, the amount that you are referring to has to do with the Gripens. There was a delay in the production of the Gripens. They have now been delivered, and that money will be handed over to the service provider. Thank you. [Applause.]
Madam House Chair, there was a follow-up question from the hon Maynier.
Well, he did not press his button. I don't have his name on the screen here; I can't smell whether he wants to speak or not. [Laughter.]
Sorry, hon Chair, I don't think you need to use your smelling powers. He pressed the button twice. I think you should rather look at the screen.
You may go ahead, hon Maynier.
Chair, one must conclude from the Minister's reply that she, in fact, has not read her own adjusted budgets. Had she done so, she would have known that there is a very substantial virement to support the VIP capability. However, as the Minister is doing so much Christmas shopping, will she buy me a Christmas present too this year?
I'm told that I could consider something that will make him stand still. [Laughter.] Hon David, the best Christmas present that you would appreciate is to be on the front pages of every newspaper. That's what you look for every day and that's what you are here for. The other element of representing the poor is just by the way, an excuse.
No, the virement that we asked for was at the time when we thought we would need to hire planes, to ensure that the Deputy President flew in a plane that was safe and secure. That is what you are talking about and that is currently the subject of a court case - because AdoAir is contesting the matter, the matter is sub judice. I will not be able to go into the details. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Vote No 25 - Police:
Ake nithule kancane, ake nithule. [Uhleko] Ngiyabonga Sihlalo, bengicela ukubuza la kuPhiko lweziNhloli, kunemadlana ethe thuthu, kanti kukhona okudla amantshontsho emsamo. Ingabe mhlawumbe Nyambose kulokhu kukhuluma okukhona okuningi laphaya - ngoba-ke kuPhiko lweziNhloli ngeke sikhulume ngabantu kodwa ngezinto - mhlawumbe kuzokusiza yini lokhu kufakwa kwemali ethe xaxa laphaya?
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZAMAPHOYISA: Cha, ukukhuluma bayokhuluma nje ngoba phela kuhlezi kukhulunywa, Boya beNyathi. Uma singaphika nezinkulumo ngeke sifike ndawo; okusemqoka wukuthi lolu Phiko lweziNhloli lubaluleke kakhulu kumaphoyisa ewonke. Uma sizophumelela ekulweni nobugebengu ezweni lakithi kubalulekile ukuthi siluqinise lolu phiko. Awuvumelani nalokho? Cha ungasukumi, nqekuzisa-nje noma unikine ikhanda, ungasukumi. [Uhleko.]
Ngakho-ke ngithi yinto ebalulekile ukuthi ngaso sonke isikhathi sazi iqiniso eliwukuthi amantshontsho asemsamo lawa owashoyo Gatsheni, laba abaluqaphile lolu Phiko bebengakasho lutho ngawo. Yizinkulumo nje ezikhona emaphepheni. Nawe kuyakhulunywa ngawe Ndlovu, ngeke sakuqeda lokho. Siyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Mr V B NDLOVU: Be quiet for a moment, be quiet! [Laughter.] Thank you, Chairperson. May I ask a question regarding the Intelligence Unit? There is a substantial amount of money, yet there is something fishy going on. Is it perhaps Nyambose doing lots of talking there, because in the Intelligence Unit we can't talk about people but about things. Is the increase in the amount of money there going to help you?
No, they will just talk because there is always something to talk about, Boya beNyathi. If we pay attention to the talks we will go nowhere. The significant thing is that this Intelligence Unit is very important to all the police officers. Don't you agree with that? No, don't stand up, just nod or shake your head, don't stand. [Laughter.]
Therefore, I'm saying it is an important thing that we should know the truth at all times. The fishy something, which Gatsheni is referring to, those who are monitoring this Unit have not yet said anything about. It is just news that are in the papers. You are also being talked about; that we cannot stop. Thank you.]
House Chair and Minister, concerning the adjustment, I want to find out more detail about the declared liability. There is an amount, running into millions that were declared liabilities in terms of the cost of the building in Pretoria. What amount that is being adjusted now, is going towards the declared liability? And is the liability that has been declared the total picture of the state's liability?
Hon member, you would recall that the matter you are referring to is before the courts. So we would not know until that process has been finalised. We would hope, perhaps, like yourself, that a very small portion would be utilised in that process, but it is before the courts. I hope you are with us in hoping for a little. Thank you.
Vote No 28 - Economic Development:
Chairperson, there appears to have been an immediate reaction to the passing of the secrecy Bill, with an immediate slide in the rand. This talks to investors' sentiment, something the Minister of Finance mentioned we need to care about.
Minister, there was an objective in the budget to deliver four interventions to create new jobs. Two have been delivered to date. Will the other two be delivered, and will deteriorating investor sentiment impact on this delivery? Thank you.
House Chairperson, I want to point out that the question obviously does not relate to the Adjustments Appropriation Bill, but I do want to make the point that the latest Quarterly Labour Force Survey indicates that, over the last 12 months, this economy has created 340 000 additional jobs. In one of the recent surveys that have been published, South Africa was seen as an attractive destination for investment and, accordingly, our programmes around infrastructure development, skills and localisation of the economy all attempted to build on that. Thank you very much.
Chairperson, I want to refer to page VIII, and I would like to ask the Minister why this House should go against the Deputy President - who supports the Walmart transaction - and vote in favour of expenditure on legal costs to derail this very same Walmart transaction. I refer to the sentence that refers to the legal services provided in the Walmart Massmart case. Thank you.
House Chairperson, I would like to reply by first saying that it is clear the hon member has not fully heard the Deputy President's view. The Deputy President did not state that no public interest conditions should be imposed on the transaction.
Now, let's go to the question that's been raised by the hon member. All of our actions ultimately must arise from some legal basis. The Competitions Act, in section 12(a)(3), sets out a set of public considerations that must be applied to every merger. Section 18(1) of that same Act specifically provides that, in order to make representations on any grounds of public interest referred to in the section that I mentioned, the Minister of Economic Development may participate in merger proceedings before the Competition Commission, the Competition Tribunal, or the Competition Appeal Court. That is precisely what we have done. Thank you very much.
Vote No 29 - Energy:
Chair, hon Minister, the Department of Energy's first annual report as a stand-alone entity reveals a staff shortage of 48%. Senior managers are not able to accomplish critical functions, for example, conducting institutional oversight on the National Energy Regulator of South Africa, Nersa, the National Nuclear Regulator, NNR, and the SA Nuclear Energy Corporation, Necsa. I think the main problem here is the shortage of critical skills. Can the Minister explain to us why the department has been allowed to get to this point and what impact this critical vacancy rate will have on the effective implementation of South Africa's proposed nuclear expansion programme? Thank you.
Chair, thank you very much, hon member for the question. I just need to indicate that both the Department of Energy and National Treasury are engaging on the issues related to funding the structure of the department. As a member of the Portfolio Committee on Energy you will know that we did indicate the challenges that we have.
I just want to also indicate that Minister Gordhan has really been trying to get to the bottom of this, in terms of making sure that we can even build capacity for other components which are necessary mandates of the Department of Energy - for example, the unit dealing with renewable energy - and also capacitating the nuclear component within the department, so as to be able to support its growth.
If you look at the adjustments as indicated you will see that we have even been given the money to make sure that the department can pay its International Atomic Energy Agency membership, so as to be able to capacitate the staff within the department as well as the staff within the NNR and Necsa, so that they can be able to carry out the mandate of expanding our nuclear potential in this country.
I believe that this is work in progress and with the necessary information from us as the Department of Energy to Treasury, we will be able to get the necessary support. But, as we speak, it is a process that we are working on together. Thank you.
Vote No 33 - Rural Development and Land Reform:
Chairperson, hon Minister, concerning the monies allocated for land acquisition, I just wanted to check whether that money will cover the whole of the 4 000 claims which are outstanding. If not, how many of these 4 000 claims will be covered by the money allocated?
Chairperson, that is a very difficult question. I think it's impossible to answer that question. I request that the hon member give me a couple of days to answer that question.
Hon member, you could then make that question available to the Minister and he will give you a reply. Is that acceptable to you?
Chairperson, we are expected to vote ... [Interjections.]
Yes, I understand that.
... on this particular issue. How do I vote when the information that will enable me to make a decision is still outstanding?
Chairperson, the hon member is asking if this adjustment of R3,4 billion will pay for all that remains, in other words the 5%. He is asking me that question now and he knows very well that it is impossible to achieve that. It's just impossible. Therefore, I'm asking that he gives me a chance to analyse that and tell him exactly how much it will take to cover the 5% and how long it can take. It can't be answered now, it's just not possible. Thank you.
Chairperson, the DA believes that land reform is of critical importance and it must succeed. It has, however, been the proverbial fly in the ointment of the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform and of its predecessor, Agriculture and Land Affairs. The shocking administration and dubious integrity of this branch has been a blight for years on the critical issue of land transformation.
The department is faced with an arrears backlog of R6,5 billion which serves as an almost insurmountable obstacle to finalising this unending and critically important land restitution programme. Not only does this present itself as a handbrake to desperately needed rural development, it serves as a direct detergent on agricultural economic growth in parts of this country that are worse affected by poverty.
Treasury recognised the gravity of this situation last year and granted this department a R2 billion increase in the Adjustments Appropriation Bill. However, due to the almost critical state of incapacity and mismanagement in land reform, there has been no such generosity this year. Not only does this compel the existing backlog ... [Interjections.]
Hon member, can you ask your question, please.
... it exacerbates the situation as the interest charged on outstanding fees amounted to almost R800 million this year.
Minister, do you agree that your department is unable to deal appropriately and efficiently with this and the conclusion of the land restitution process by not receiving more funding for restitution, which could present itself as a major roadblock to land reform in South Africa? Thank you.
Can we please be quiet. I can't hear the Minister. I can't hear the questioner because there is too much noise on this side and on that side.
Chairperson, last year on 26 May during question time to the President of the Republic, the hon member of the DA asked the President whether he is aware that the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform is faced with 24 court orders. The President was not sure about it and the hon member came back and asked the question again.
When the President understood he said that he did not know that. The DA helped me to have a sense of some of the challenges faced by our department. Then we did two things after consulting with my colleague. I said to him that I want to have an analysis of the challenge facing us in the department as a result of that good question to the President.
I went back, looked at it and made an analysis. I found, firstly, that what the department had been doing over a number of years was to shift money from redistribution to that. They would do it each year because there would be more exposure with restitution.
Secondly, that resulted in the exposure of government to R12,2 billion in terms of court orders. I looked at that and I then said to my colleague, "Let us do a reprioritisation. Let us reprioritise this amount so that we can put more money in restitution because there is more exposure to government." I was reacting to what the DA had raised.
We also rationalised the Land Claims Commission itself so that we can reign in and control the provinces. We appointed all commissioners at the provincial level under the Public Service Act. It was all in response to that question to the President. We have done something and I'm disappointed that the DA is unable to recognise its own success. It is a pity, because that is what we did. Now they think that we did nothing about it. Thank you. [Applause.]
Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, to deliver land reform that will ensure that the nation has enough agricultural production for the foreseeable future will create jobs, will make sure that everybody who wants to utilise land has equal opportunity and will address imbalances. An accurate land audit and sufficient funds will be critical. How concerned should we be that this budget will, in fact, seriously stifle progress? Thank you.
Deputy Speaker, what we have done, amongst other things, particularly relating to the three questions the hon member is asking, is to create that recapitalisation and development programme for that reason.
We have this strategic partnership. We have created 1 503 permanent jobs out of it. That is just for continuing development after recapitalisation. During the recapitalisation period, which is ongoing, we have created 3 656 jobs that are running during the recapitalisation period. That is happening as we speak. We have more than 300 farms under recapitalisation. We are doing a lot of work in terms of ensuring that there are jobs.
As far as equal opportunity is concerned, I wish the hon members were watching Dr John Purchase on AgriTV this morning discussing the Green Paper on Land Reform to just hear what they say about how optimistic they are, as farmers, now that they are part of the whole engagement with regard to this question of creating opportunities.
AgriSA's CEO and legal advisor had a meeting with me on Friday last week. They were saying to me that there are challenges with regard to evictions and so on. So, we want to pilot one of the institutions that we want to create in terms of solving problems. We have already agreed to set up a team. They appreciate the fact that the Land Rights Management Board is an institution that can solve most problems out of court.
These new institutions which we as the department are creating are actually becoming more appreciated by farmers as they sit with us in developing policies on six themes based on the Green Paper. I'm very excited about that and I'm sure the hon members following that will also be excited. Thank you.
Vote No 34 - Science and Technology:
Madam Deputy Chair, it is good to see all of Cabinet here, it is wonderful. I wanted to find out if there is a saving in the Department of Science and Technology in view of the extended absence of the Deputy Minister doing a good job as Chairman of the National Disciplinary Committee of the ANC. [Interjections.]
Do you want to answer that question, Minister?
Deputy Speaker, since you made everybody stand up for all sorts of peculiar questions, I suppose for the most peculiar one, we should stand up as well. It doesn't deserve a response.
Vote No 36 - Trade and Industry:
Deputy Speaker, climate change is a threat and an opportunity for business in South Africa. Given our commitment to mitigate it, how is it that the Department of Trade and Industry, DTI, set out to assist 32 companies to implement cleaner production activities this year, yet the adjusted estimates show that by September they had assisted precisely zero? Furthermore, international trade measures to mitigate climate change can be used as a form of back door protectionism by advanced economies. Given this, how is it that the DTI set out to sign 12 trade agreements and 18 government-to-government platforms this year, yet by September they had signed precisely zero?
Well I think those questions are both questions that would require me to go beyond the adjustments estimate. I can't be precise about who has applied and who has not and why we have been able to give or if we haven't been able to give support to the green economy. Clearly, support for the green economy is also forthcoming from the Industrial Development Corporation and here things like solar water heaters have expanded on a massive scale. We are also involved in the SA Renewables initiative and many other programmes, but I will have to go through the details of that and come back to the hon member on that.
As far as trade agreements are concerned, all that we have been doing this year is to be involved in the negotiations with India and the rectification of the agreement with Mercosur. In fact, I think that measuring outcomes in terms of the number of agreements signed is not necessarily an indication; we have to get involved in trade negotiations of various sorts. The highlight this year was the initiation of the process of the tripartite free trade agreement. I think we have made some very considerable progress in that regard, and also some very considerable progress in trade promotion activities in the emerging and dynamic economies. Thank you.
Chair, Minister, with regard to the funding of the National Consumer Commission, is the Minister satisfied that the funding solution is appropriate to solve the personnel problems currently at the National Consumer Commission, NCC?
Well, I am satisfied that the funding that has been made available to the NCC at this point in time is adequate for them to commence with the activities under review. Of course, like any entity, it would like to have more money, but if there was more money available to the Department of Trade and Industry, it is not necessarily a forgone conclusion that that would be the first priority, given all the other programmes that need funding. As far as the personnel funding is concerned, I have, in fact, initiated an audit enquiry into some of the challenges identified in the National Consumer Commission and I am awaiting the outcome of that report.
Vote No 37 - Transport:
Deputy Speaker, to you Minister, it is always nice to be the last one to speak. The last time I was here I suggested that we reverse the order a bit because then we can give you a little bit more relaxation.
Minister, let me just reflect on the rollovers. The department has now indicated that they are going to roll over R23 million, which is quite a large amount of money when you consider the state that roads are in in this country, the toll roads and what is happening about them in Gauteng, as well as the road safety initiatives that we could use that money for.
Can you assure us, Minister, that, first of all, these roll-overs did not exceed the maximum amount that is laid down by Treasury, in terms of the rollover amount, and in respect of goods and services?
Secondly, can you give assurance that the department has the capacity to implement these projects that are outstanding? I want to specifically ask you about the rental of your office accommodation which is being carried over and which amounts to about R3,6 million. What is the reason why people have not been able to be accommodated in your department; and why are you rolling that rental over when it should have been planned for a process within the financial year?
If you look at the self-funding expenditure, there is a bit of a concern there, Minister, because I know and I am aware of the R417 million that you should have received in revenue in respect of the vehicle transaction fees. One hundred and five million rands of that - and I hope you are listening, Mr Manuel, because you were party to that original memorandum of understanding between the department and yourself to pay back the National Traffic Information System, eNatis, overrun; yes, I see your signature or that of your department on that - has now brought about a bit of a concern to me, because if that R105 million has not been returned and you are now showing that you have R417 million in income, I just want to know that you actually have your hands on that and whether or not the Road Traffic Management Corporation, RTMC, has not used that money to pay salaries and not send it to Mr Manuel's department. Thank you.
Madam Deputy Speaker, we have got a handle on what is going on there. The main focus has been the restructuring of the department and aligning what the department is doing with what has been structured, in terms of agencies. So, we need an alignment where an agency will report to a specific deputy director-general within the department. That has been the required alignment, because the department was a skeleton and most of the work was done by the agencies, without any alignment between the two.
As far as the question of eNatis is concerned, first of all, let me say that the pessimism that was there has now borne out to have been unfounded, in that eNatis is functioning and is being rolled out, not only in the country but in the Southern African Development Community as well. Right now we have Namibia, Angola, and Lesotho, all using our eNatis. So, the pessimism that was there about whether or not we would be able to function and make it functional has not been borne out.
As far as the RTMC is concerned, I am sure the hon member is aware that we are now concluding the disciplinary case that has been outstanding for a long time and we're assured that in January we will pay out so that it is implemented properly.
Regarding our ability to get the funding in terms of eNatis and the fines that are exerted by local authorities and provinces, we are on top of that. I think we are doing well in Johannesburg and that will be finalised. So, we have got a handle on this.
The Minister did not respond to the question about the roll- overs. I just want to know what is happening to that R23 million, whether or not you have the capacity to spend it, or can we not rather make a virement of it and put it towards the Gauteng toll road project or something. I am putting this to you because there is a serious concern out there. We see this money that is rolled over not being used and it sits in the department and you do not have the capacity to utilise it.
I also asked specifically about that rental amount. Are you actually going to use that rental money - that R3,5 million - or not? If you are not going to use it, let us know in advance so that I can try to negotiate some sort of a deal there.
The last thing I wanted to find out is this. If the RTMC is the collecting agent for all the transaction fees for the registration of vehicles in this country and they are using that money, how do you actually get to a point where you take it away from them when I know and you know that they do not have any money? Thank you.
Let me first state that the RTMC is a function that has to deal with the constitutional imperatives. Law enforcement on transport is a national, provincial and local competence. In order to ensure that we are able to have uniformity throughout the country, an Act called the RTMC was enacted by this Parliament in 1998. Of course it has been a problem child for the past 12 years - since its inception. What I am saying to this House is that we have now been able to conclude the disciplinary case which was preventing us from moving forward in so far as the fact that the chief executive officer was suspended. We have now concluded that.
Secondly, regarding the issue of collecting the fees and mixing it up with toll roads, I think this House is still going to discuss the question of toll roads. The issue about that is that phase one is a bolted horse, you cannot do anything about it. Money was borrowed, it has to be paid back and that is where it is. We have said that regarding further toll roads - whether in the Winelands or anywhere else - let us sit back and, since we have not put spade to ground, let us discuss it and then move forward on that basis.
Adv A de W ALBERTS: Deputy Speaker, Minister, with regard to the Gauteng toll road - the built version - have you provided enough funding for the SA National Roads Agency Limited, Sanral, to survive without the tolling income? Or is the toll road going to go online in February next year? Thank you.
The money was borrowed. The road was built. It does not matter how you feel about it, you cannot roll it like you can roll out this carpet and take it away. It is there now. Someone has got to pay for it. [Interjections.]
This Cabinet then effected reductions. At first, the fee was supposed to be 66c per kilometre, it then went down to 40c. But then we have exempted all public transport - taxis and buses on that. But that exemption was based on our calculation that we will still be able to pay for the loan that has been taken.
With regard to phase 2 of the tolls - Winelands and other areas - we have decided to go back and discuss it again.
Vote No 38 - Water Affairs:
Mhlonishwa, nangu uMhlonishwa ehamba ...
USEKELA SOMLOMO: Akahambi yena.
Mhlonishwa kunezinkinga eMkhanyakude ngokuhanjiswa kwamanzi kodwa kunedamu eceleni kwakhona. Okokuqala, bengifisa ukwazi ukuthi ingabe kulezi zigidi ezingama-20 ezilapha uMhlonishwa uzokwazi yini ukuthi alekelele ngazo na? Okwesibili, kunezindawo lapha, uMhlonishwa uyangizwa yini? lokhu okuhambisa amanzi osekubolile la ngaphansi komhlabathi okudinga kulungiswe kahle, ingabe uMhlonishwa izokwazi yini ukumlekelela le mali efakiwe ukuze kukwazi ukuthi kulungiswe leyo ndawo na? (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Mr V B NDLOVU: Hon Deputy Speaker, the hon Minister is leaving ...
He is not leaving.
Hon Minister, uMkhanyakude has a water supply problem, but there is a dam nearby. Firstly, I would like to know whether the hon will be able to assist with the R20 million which is available. Secondly, there are places here... Can the hon Minister hear me? The water supply system is worn out underground and needs to be properly fixed. Will the additional money help the hon Minister to fix that particular area?]
TONA YA MERERO YA METSI LE TIKOLOGO: Mmusakgotla, ke ne ke re ke arabe rre ka gore re utlwile gore o bua ka lefelo le le bidiwang uMkhanyakude. Ke solofela gore rre, o tla kgona go re isa teng ka gore ke kwa gae, ke etele le ena ke tle ke ye go bona. Re a itse gore go na le bothata jwa metsi teng kwa uMkhanyakude, metsi re a itse gore ga a tswe, go bothata jo botona kwa teng mme re samagane le bona gore re tle re dire gore batho ba rona ba nne le metsi ka gore a tlhokega tota.
Re utlwile e bile re a itse gore dipeipi tsa rona tsa kwa teng, ga di a nna sentle, di setse di senyegile di na le dirusu, di tsamaisa metsi totatota ka tsela e e sa tshwanelang, mme go mo maikemisetsong le mo maemong a lefapha leno gore mo porogarameng ya rona e e bidiwang Dikakego tsa Bontsi tsa Sedika le e e bidiwang Asek, re thusana le bagaetsho ba kwa uMkhanyakude gore re tsenye dipeipi tseno re di siamise. Ga go a siama, re tsweletse pele ka lenaneo leo e bile re lwa bosigo le motshegare go dira gore batho ba rona ba nne le metsi. Ke a leboga. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)
[The MINISTER OF WATER AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS: Speaker, I would like to respond to the question by the hon member as we heard him talk about a place called uMkhanyakude. I hope that the hon member will be able to take us there since it is his home town. I will accompany him in order to see that place. We all know that there are water-related problems in the uMkhanyakude area, and we are in the process of ensuring that our people have access to water, because it is a necessity.
We are aware that our water pipes are not in a good condition, they are rust and broken, and the water pipe system used to supply water is also poor. It is the department's mandate and responsibility through our Regional Bulk Infrastructure Programme to assist the people of uMkhanyakude with repairing these water pipes. We have not addressed the problem yet, but we are going ahead with the programme working day and night to ensure that our people have water. Thank you.]
Deputy Speaker, thank you, Minister, I know it is a contrast between the two departments, the Department of Environmental Affairs and the Department of Water Affairs; the other one is doing very well and the one is doing terribly bad. The department has been receiving disclaimers from the Auditor-General for a few consecutive years now.
The construction of the dams is poorly managed, the Public Finance Management Act, PMFA, has been flouted by the department, and section 43(2)(4c) and section 93(4b) has seriously been violated. An amount of R8,6 million was wrongly transferred without following the PMFA. The question is: What is the Minister going to do to correct this situation so that this does not continue and how will he ensure that the PMFA is strictly enforced at all levels in the Department of Water Affairs? Thank you.
TONA YA MERERO YA METSI LE TIKOLOGO: E kete re ka bo re bapisa mafapha a mabedi ano gore re tle re tlhaloganye gore tiro e e dirwang ke lefapha leno la metsi e kwa godimo go feta eno ya lefapha la tikologo. Re a itumela ka tlotlo eno e e neelwang lefapha le le dirang sentle leno mme fa re bua ka leno la metsi; sa ntlha, re a amogela gore go na le mathata ao a neng a ntse a le teng, segolobogolo mo go tsa mafaratlhatlha a matamo, a diporogeramo di tshwana le tse mme a sa tswang go bua ka tsona.
Jaanong se re se dirang ke seno, re a itse gore go na le mafaratlhatlha a tshwana le matamo a kwa Nandoni a e leng gore dipeipi tsa yona di ne di sa bewa sentle mo makgetlong a le mabedi. Re bua jaana, ke ne ke le kwa Nandoni le kwa Nwamitwa maabane. Ke ne ke ya go leka go sekaseka mekgwa e re ka e dirisang go siamisa mafaratlhatlha ano. Mme mo gare ga tse dingwe tse re di dirang ke go fokotse nako ya tsamaiso ya go dira ditshiamiso mo mafaratlhatlheng ao, sekao, go ne go tla nna tshiamiso ya dipeipi tseo, go di tsenya ka sebaka sa dibeke di le 40. Re se sobokantse gore se fokotsege se ye kwa halofong ya nako gore batho ba rona ba kgone go nna le metsi ao a a botlhokwa. Mafaratlhatlha a mangwe ao a neng a abetswe madi a a tshwanang le ona a mme a buang ka ona; dimilione di le R230, eo e neng e abilwe go sa siama ka lenaneo le le sa siamang.
Go matshwanedi gore re begele Ntlo eno bothata jono jwa gore ditekanyesokabo tsa rona di bo di sa tsamaisane ka mananeo le ka ditatelano, bogolosegolo mo go tsona tsa mafaratlhatlha.
Re ntse re siame, re siamisa dilo tseo; rona, botsamaisi le badiri ba lefapha la rona; tsa tiro le kabo ya dit?helete go tsenyeletsa le ditiro tsa tsamaiso. Mathata a a ntseng jalo re a arabela ka gore re thapile, e seng bagakolodi bagaetsho, re thapile komiti e mongwe le mongwe wa yona a ikemetseng ka boena ka bokgoni jwa gagwe gore ba tle ba dire ka bongwe ka bongwe; yo mongwe a tlise bokgoni jwa gagwe, e e bidiwang tebelogape ya tsamaiso ya tsa kgwebo. Ke e begile kwa komiting gore le bona ba re thuse - mongwe le mongwe a lebile gore o tla kgona go re a lere kitso ya gagwe go thusana le botsamaisi.
Komiti eo e setse e bontshitse, manontlhotlho, tota gore go na le se re ka se siamisang le dilo tsotlhe tse re ka di siamisang mo mathateng a re nang le ona. Ga se tseo fela, lenaneo la rona le le telele le go leba melao e mengwe e e ka re kgontshang. Nako e khutshwane gompieno gore nka bua ka yona yotlhe, re tla boela gape mo komiting go tla go bua tsotlhe tseo le gore re di siamisa jang. Ke a leboga. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)
[The MINISTER OF WATER AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS: I would like us to compare the two ministries within the department so that we will be able to understand that this ministry of the Department of Water has more work done than the Department of Environmental Affairs. We are pleased with the recognition bestowed on this department that is performing well. When we talk about the Department of Water, we firstly agree that problems existed especially with regard to the construction of the dams and programmes that the hon member has just spoken about.
We are all aware that pipes were incorrectly installed on two occasions during the construction of dams like the one in Nandoni. As a matter of urgency, I went to Nandoni and Nwamitwa yesterday to try to examine the ways in which we can rectify these mistakes in those constructions. We are busy trying to shorten the period needed to rectify these faulty constructions. For example, it was supposed to take about 40 weeks to rectify the installation of those pipes. We have reduced this into half of the initial period expected to complete the work so that our people can have water, which is a necessity. Some of the constructions were unreasonably allocated an amount of R230 million that the hon member has been talking about. It is important that we report to this House the problems we are faced with in our budget allocations, which are not in accordance with the priority as per our programmes, especially in relation to these constructions. We are addressing this: Our managers, the employees of our department, those in the National Treasury, including those in the District Municipality, are working together to rectify these things. In responding to these challenges, we can simply say that we have secured the services of a committee that is not only providing an advisory support, but also has independent experts who bring on board their skills in reviewing the way we do our business. I have reported the problems to the committee so that they can assist us by roping in their expertise into management.
This committee has already shown its excellence in providing solutions with regard to the problems that we are faced with. These are not the only challenges; our programme is broad and we have looked at other alternative solutions that will assist us. Unfortunately, we have a short period that does not allow us to address all these challenges. We will come back to the committee so that we will be able to talk about all of them. Thank you.]
I'm told Cope's time for asking questions is up. Are there any other questions from those who are not Cope? [Interjections.] Cope's time is up. If there are no other questions, that concludes the question and answer session on the votes. We shall now proceed to decide the votes and schedules.
On a point of order, Deputy Speaker: I think the House should be correctly informed in terms of what hon George said earlier, that after the vote earlier on the rand weakened. In fact, it was R8,44 before the vote. It closed at R8,41 and the latest is R8,39. Thank you. [Applause.]
That is just information on the discussion that took place earlier.
Vote No 3 -Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs - put and agreed to.
Vote No 4 - Home Affairs - put and agreed to.
Vote No 5 - International Relations and Cooperation - put and agreed to.
Vote No 7 - Public Works - put and agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Congress of the People and Independent Democrats dissenting).
Vote No 8 - Women, Children and People with Disabilities - put and agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Congress of the People and Independent Democrats).
Vote No 9 - Government Communications and Information System - put and agreed to. Vote No 10 - National Treasury - put and agreed to.
Vote No 1 - Presidency - agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Congress of the People and Independent Democrats dissenting).
Vote No 6 - Performance Monitoring and Evaluation - put and agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).
Vote No 2 - Parliament - put and agreed to.
Vote No 11 - Public Enterprises - put and agreed to.
Vote No 12 - Public Service and Administration - put and agreed to.
Vote No 13 - Statistics South Africa - put and agreed to.
Vote No 14 - Arts and Culture - put and agreed to.
Vote No 15 - Basic Education - put and agreed to (Independent Democrats and Democratic Alliance dissenting).
Vote No 16 - Health - put and agreed to (Congress of the People dissenting).
Vote No 17- Higher Education and Training - put and agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting). Vote No 18 - Labour - put and agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).
Vote No 19 - Social Development - put and agreed to.
Vote No 20 - Sport and Recreation South Africa - put and agreed to (Independent Democrats and Democratic Alliance dissenting).
Vote No 21 - Correctional Services - put and agreed to.
Vote No 22 - Defence and Military Veterans - put and agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).
Vote No 23 - Independent Complaints Directorate - put and agreed to.
Vote No 24 - Justice and Constitutional Development - put and agreed to.
Vote No 25 - Police - put and agreed to.
Vote No 26 - Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries - put and agreed to.
Vote No 27 - Communications - put and agreed to (Independent Democrats and Democratic Alliance dissenting). Vote No 28 - Economic Development - put and agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Congress of the People and Independent Democrats dissenting).
Vote No 29 - Energy - put and agreed to.
Vote No 30 - Environmental Affairs - put and agreed to.
Vote No 31 - Human Settlements - put and agreed to.
Vote No 32 - Mineral Resources - put and agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Independent Democrats and Congress of the People dissenting).
Vote No 33 - Rural Development and Land Reform - put.
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 227: Adams, L H; Adams, P E; Balindlela, Z B N; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bhengu, P; Bikani, F C; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Botha, Y R; Burgess, C V; Cele, M A; Chabane, O C; Chikunga, L S; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Coleman, E M; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Daniels, P N; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Dikobo, K J; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Zuma, N C; Dlodlo, A; Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M C; Duma, N M; Dunjwa, M L; Fihla, N B; Frolick, C; Fubbs, J L; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gcwabaza, N E; Gelderblom, J P; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Gololo, C L; Gona, M F; Goqwana, M B; Gumede, D M; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Holomisa, S P; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Kekane, C D; Kenye, T E; Kganare, D A; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, F E; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, G W; Koornhof, N J J v R; Kota- Fredericks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Landers, L T; Lebenya-Ntanzi, S P; Lekgetho, G; Lekota, M G P; Lishivha, T E; Luyenge, Z; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabedla, N R; Mabudafhasi, T R; Mabuza, M C; Madlala, N M; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Magama, H T; Magau, K R; Magubane, E; Magwanishe, G; Makasi, X C; Makhuba, H N; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makwetla, S P; Malale, M l; Malgas, H H; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, J M; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Mandela, Z M D; Manganye, J; Mangena, M S; Manuel, T A; Martins, B A D; Mashatile, P; Mashigo, R M; Mashishi, A C; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matlanyane, H F; Matshoba, J M; Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W; Maziya, M; Mbhele, P D; Mbili, M E; Mc lntosh, G B D; Mdakane, M R; Mjobo, L N; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlangeni, A; Mmusi, S G; Mnisi, N A; Mocumi, P A; Mohale, M C; Mohorosi, M; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Moloto, K A; Moni, C M; Morutoa, M R; Moss, L N; Motlanthe, K P; Motsepe, R M; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mphahlele, L M; Mpontshane, A M; Msweli, H S; Mthethwa, E M; Mthethwa, E N; Mufamadi, T A; Mushwana, F F; Muthambi, A F; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndabeni, S T; Ndebele, J S; Ndlanzi, A Z; Ndlovu, V B; Nel, A C; Nelson, W J; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngcobo, B T; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, W; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Njobe, M A A; Nkwinti, G E; November, N T; Ntapane, S Z; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, Z C; Nxumalo, M D; Nyalungu, R E; Nyanda, S; Nyekemba, E; Nzimande, B E; Oliphant, M N; Oliphant, G G; Padayachie, R L; Pandor, G N M; Peters, E D; Petersen-Maduna, P; Phaliso, M N; Pilusa-Mosoane, M E; Pule, D D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Radebe, G S; Ramatlakane, L; Ramodibe, D M; Schneemann, G D; Segale-Diswai, M J; Selau, G J; September, C C; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibiya, D; Singh, N; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, S C N; Sithole, K P; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Smith, V G; Snell, G T; Sogoni, E M; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Suka, L; Sulliman, E M; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thibedi, J D; Thobejane, S G; Thomson, B; Tinto, B; Tsebe, S R; Tseke, G K; Tshabalala, J; Tshwete, P; Tsotetsi, D R; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Rooyen, D D; Van Schalkwyk, M C J; Van Wyk, A; Williams, A J; Williams-De Bruyn, S T; Xaba, P P; Ximbi, D L; Xingwana, L M; Zikalala, C N Z; Zondi, K M; Zulu, B Z.
NOES - 59: Coetzee, T W; De Freitas, M S F; Dreyer, A M; Du Toit, N D; Dudley, C; Duncan, P C; Figlan, A M; George, D T; Greyling, L W; Harris, T D; Hill-Lewis, G G; James, W J; Kalyan, S V; Kopane, S P; Krumbock, G R; Lamoela, H; Lee, T D; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Lovemore, A T; Marais, S J F; Marais, E J; Max, L; Maynier, D J; Mazibuko, L D; Michael, N W A; Mnqasela, M; More, E; Morgan, G R; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Ollis, I M; Pretorius, P J C; Rabie, P J; Robinson, D; Ross, D; Schafer, D A; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Smalle, J; Smiles, D C; Smuts, M; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A C; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D; Swart, S N; Swart, M; Swathe, M M; Trollip, R A P; Van Dalen, E; Van den Berg, N J; Van der Linde, J J; Van der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, S M; Van Schalkwyk, H C; Waters, M; Watson, A; Wenger, M.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 34 - Science and Technology - put and agreed to.
Vote No 35 - Tourism - put and agreed to.
Vote No 36- Trade and Industry - put and agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).
Vote No 37 - Transport - put and agreed to.
Vote No 38 - Water Affairs - put and agreed to (Congress of the People dissenting).
Schedules agreed to.