Having gone through the process, this Vote is agreed to and we will move to the next ... [Interjections.] [Applause.]
No Chair, sorry. Chairperson was there any calls for declarations?
But hon members are expected to stand up and indicate ... [Interjections.]
No Chair, you have to call that and if ... [Interjections.]
Will the DA like to make a declaration? Can we proceed? Now, thank you very much. We will proceed to Vote 3. Are there any objections on Vote 3?
As we go according to Votes, when we arrive at Vote 3, just say Vote 3 - Communications. Because sometimes from your seat, you get confused and we you do, we are able to quickly correct you. Thank you.
Just indicate that again please.
As you continue with the Votes, for instance, when you get to Vote 3 being Communications, please read Communications. Don't just say Vote 3 so that there is confusion we can be able to
... [Inaudible.]
Chair, on a point of order. Chairperson, I am slightly confused now as well. I have joined the ranks of those members. [Laughter.] Hon Chairperson, on Vote No 2, you have firstly asked if there was an objection and we indicated that there was. And then we made you ask for a declaration, there wasn't. But no vote was taken. There is no indication how many members voted in favour
or against that Vote. Now, we proceed to Vote No 3. I just need your explanation and clarity on that please.
Well hon members, we will proceed.
We can't move to the next Vote without allowing members who were locked outside to come in. That is one of the problems. You are dealing with us, blatantly like that.
We now want to ...
[Interjections.] Because there was no ... Okay!
Hon Chair, it's quite easy. You cannot go to the next Bill if this House has not voted on the previous one. You have not asked for the "ayes" to "ayes" and the "noes" to say "noes". You cannot go on. So, put the Bill to the vote after the vote has been done verbally, then people can ask for a division. But you cannot expect this Vote to be carried through. Nobody voted on this.
Yes, Deputy Chair.
Chairperson, one thing that I have observed is that there is confusion in the House because every time when the opposition rises, they want us to do things according to the Rules of the National Assembly. [Interjections.] No! No! I want to be listened to because we have listened to you. The declaration of vote is the first thing. When a question to be decided by the votes of individual members has been fully put, the Rules don't say how it is put.
So, the Chairperson said I am putting Vote 2 in front of you and there are any objections? There is an objection. After the objection there should be a declaration of vote. The issue of "ayes" and "noes" comes in the demand for division according to these Rules. Let us just read it properly. [Interjections.] According to these Rules, that is where it comes in. [Interjections.]
Hon members, to try and ... [Interjections.]
On a point of order Chairperson. Chairperson, I would really like to help out.
What's the point of order hon member?
The point of order Chairperson is the point to assist you. Can I call for a short adjournment to the House and yourself and the Whips of all the parties and the Table staff meet to discuss the procedure forward. Otherwise Chair, I fear I will go straight from this meeting to my 10'o clock committee meeting tomorrow. [Laughter.] I just want to suggest that we get clarity so that we don't have these fights the entire day. I am just to make common sense Chairperson.
No hon member, we will not do that. We will not do that.
Chairperson, allow me to address you. I think some of the opposition members are in this House to waste our time. [Interjections.] The Deputy Chairperson already gave an indication of the Rules of the NCOP. I will ask you to proceed with the business of the day. We are not here to make jokes. The residences of South Africa are waiting for us to approve this Appropriation Bill. We can't be kept hostage because people wants to be technical and they don't understand the Rules of the House. [Interjections.] Can we proceed with the business of the day? Please Chairperson? [Interjections.]
Hon members, the dilemma that we are in, some is caused by people standing up saying this or the other, is that the Vote was put and was Tabled and there was one or two objections. We then proceeded to note the objections in terms of my guide in front of me here. And because no one called for a division ... [Interjections.] ... we didn't go to the process of the actual voting ... Can we go back to Vote 2, hon members? [Applause.]
Vote No 2 - Parliament - put
The next step is to find out ... let me do it this way. The next step is to find out if we should then proceed to the next step. [Interjections.] The next step is ... Nyambi
Chair, I am appealing to all of us hon members, it is a very serious process so that we just confuse for no reason. Chair, if you call for an objection, allow all political parties that wants to object and then you note them. After you have noted all the political parties, because you can't go to a division with one party objecting, we have to note all political parties that are objecting. That is what is missing now because already we have noted an objection of the DA. Now allow any other party that wants to join
the DA in terms of the objection. Then after that, then we go to the next one and then they will call for a division. And when they call for a division; that is why earlier on I talked about the issue of the numbers because it means that as Nyambi alone, I can say I call for a division and if I don't have support, I don't have the minimal number in terms of the Rules of the NCOP, it means that thing falls off. That is why at all times you have to make sure that we meet the necessary threshold. But now, allow other parties then we can go to the next one. [Interjections.]
Can we find out hon members if there are any other political parties that wishes to make an objection.
Thank you hon Nyambi, Chairperson, I think you cannot always be assisted. Maybe hon Nyambi must go there and you come here. [Applause.] [Laughter.] But we just want to put it on record that the EFF objects.
Is there any other objection? [Interjections.] Is the Vote agreed to? [Interjections.]
Hon Chair on a point of order, in terms of Rule 65 and I want to read it to you. After a question has been put and the
officer presiding has indicated whether the "ayes" or the "noes" have it, any member may demand a division - after the "ayes" or "noes" have been decided. You cannot carry on with anything before you ask this House to say "ayes" or "noes" - that is the Rule. And, you are supposed to have the Rule book. Ask whether this House agrees and ask everybody to voice his vote. Will all those in favour say "ayes" and all those against say "noes", that is easy as it is.
Thank you very much hon members, there being no other objections, we will now proceed. Can I find out if any of the political parties present here wants a division?
Thank you hon House Chairperson, if you would please indulge just for a second. You first asked - with respect - for a declaration on the vote because you need to explanation why you are voting in a specific manner. Then the Vote needs to be asked if there is anyone objecting, because if no one objects, then it's unanimous. If there is an indication that we are objecting; then the "ayes" and "noes" and the have to be put and if they "ayes" and the "noes" have been put and we don't agree that the "ayes" have it, then we call for a division so that we can physically see how many people are in favour and how many people are against.
So, it's the declarations, then the objections and then a vote and then the division. Just those four things that you have to remember, with respect Chairperson, can we stick to those four things in that order? We haven't voted so we can't divide if we haven't voted. And it is not the National Assembly that I am following. We quoted to you from this book that you should know by now.
Chair, I think we have done all that's supposed to be done. [Interjections.] I am saying this for one reason. This paper which is called a declaration paper, parties have indicated on it where they want to do their declarations. You have asked us, now we can't go back to declaration after we have agreed that the "ayes" have it. So, that is the procedure that we must follow. I think now we must go to point three. [Interjections.]
Okay hon members. What the point of order? [Interjections.] We will try to push forward.
Chair, on a point of order: Really this is not the way to start a new Parliament. The declaration form is not taking away the Rules of this House. It's very plain and simple as it has been explained and read from the Rule book - not from anything else - from the Rule book. This is Parliament and we have to do it
according to the way the Rules spell out. Because whenever we deviate, that becomes a pattern and there are so many wrong patterns in the NCOP. We cannot let the last thing go. So, we have to go according to the Rules. This is a Budget of billions of rands that we are not prepared to follow the Rules in this House. Thank you.
Thank you hon members. Can I try to push the process forward? And, this is what I am going to do. Having noted the objections from the various political parties, can I find out if any political party wants to make a declaration? Does anybody want to make a declaration? No declaration. Can we then move to raise the question?
Division demanded.
The Council divided:
AYES: 38: Bebee, L C; Carrim, Y I; Dangor, M; Gillion N M; Govender, L P; Gxoyiya, A B; Llatchmirain, T; Lekganyane, N M; Lucas, S E; Mamaregane, L M; Matibe, T B; Matiwane, T; Mfayela, S E; Mohai S J; Moshodi, L M; Motswana, A; Modise, T C; Mthethwa, E M; Mahlangu, D G; Maleka, A D; Mkiva, Z; Mokgonyana, E M; Mmoiemang, K M; Mmola, M P; Ncitha, Z V; Ndongeni, N; Nkosi, S C; Ntsube, I; Ngwenya, W;
Nchabeleng, M E; Nyambi, A J; Njadu, E J; Rayi, M I; Rosho, M Z; Saziwa, M; Sekoati, S C; Selane, C B D; Shaikh, S.
NOES: 24: Apleni, T; Arnolds, A; Aucamp, W A S; Bara, M R; Baartman, D; Boshoff, H S; Brauteseth, T J; Christians, D C; Koni, N P; Lehihi, S B; Luthuli, S A; Labuschagne, C; Michalakis, G; Moletsane, M S; Motsamai, K; Nhanha, M; Ryder, R D; Smit, C B F; Sileku, I M; Visser, C; Wenger, M; Zandamela, S.
ABSTAIN: 2: Cloete, A B; Du Toit, S F.
Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).
Vote 3 - Communications - put.
On a point of order. Could the secretary perhaps indicate how many eligible voters are here in the House because a total number of people that voted in the first round and the number that voted in the second round are different? They don't tally up.
Division demanded.
The Council divided: