Thank you, Chairperson of the day. Chairperson, colleagues and special delegates present, it is my pleasure to thank you and welcome you to this House today. The DA will, in the main, support the Bill, but there are issues that we need to deal with so that they can be straightened out.
Section 24 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, Act 108 of 1996, states that, and I quote:
Everyone has the right-
(a) to an environment that is not harmful to their health or wellbeing; and
(b) to have the environment protected, for the benefit of present and future generations ...
The DA subscribes to these rights as they are provisions of the supreme law of the country and not of a political party. Let me hasten to say we are on the last mile of our walk for 2008, awaiting the prospects of the new year, that is 2009, with eagerness.
Ka Sepedi bare "ngwaga o sa nthatego, tshelaganya ke tle ke je." [When a person is experiencing problems, he wishes they would pass quickly so that he can be happy again like others.]
We are really hoping for the best in the year to come.
This Bill seeks to amend the definitions of advertisements on packaging, and also prohibits the sale of tobacco products to and by persons under the age of 18 years. I am not sure how this can be implemented since the purchaser is not always the user. As much as we say we should not sell to those who are under 18 years, the purchaser is not always the person who is going to use it.
Street vendors sell to everybody and there is a need to educate the sellers to ensure that they do not engage with the underaged. So we need to deal with that element and say how then do we deal with and monitor these aspects that would be a challenge to us because these tobacco products are also sold to everybody by street vendors.
Make the standards that apply to manufacturers of tobacco products applicable to importers of tobacco products. It is very important that those who import inferior tobacco products illegally are dealt with to protect legal manufacturers and sellers.
The government gains tremendously from taxes - and uses it to provide services to our communities - paid by the tobacco companies that actually do business in a good way. So we need to ask how then are those that actually bring in this product illegally going to be dealt with?
Smokeless tobacco products are generally harmful to the health of those who use them. Smoke-generating tobacco products such as cigarettes are harmful to both users and nonusers. These harms are well documented in the health research documents, hospitals and clinic records. The short and the long of it is that one's life is shortened when using tobacco products.
Life is about choices that individuals make. Individuals choose to use alcohol and its products in different ways. It is outlawed to drink, get drunk and drive, but there are those who choose to put the lives of others at risk by insisting on driving when they are drunk. They put innocent lives at risk by causing road accidents. Some pedestrians get knocked down by vehicles because of wandering onto the roads when drunk.
Some individuals also choose to use tobacco products, and the most common one in South Africa is the smoke-generating cigarette. Users and nonusers are affected the same way if users do not ensure that they smoke in designated places. By the way, South Africa seems to be the first country in Africa to have a regulation allowing smokers to use designated places, and no smoking in public places. The world is copying South Africa in their endeavour to regulate the industry.
Display of tobacco products at retail outlets is regulated. Self-service displays allowing customers to handle tobacco products before paying for them is prohibited because these are said to be easy vehicles used to promote tobacco companies and the products that they are selling. Sales through the Internet, post and other electronic media are also prohibited. We welcome that, but the big question is how do we monitor those particular aspects? I think in the regulations, perhaps, we need to look at these particular elements. But how we do this is then the question that we have to answer.
Our country has many street vendors selling all forms of products to survive due to the lack of better employment opportunities as our economy is growing but is not translating the growth into more job opportunities for the unemployed.
By the way, these big outlets are normally regulated, or will there be special regulations allowing them to sell as they have been doing? What are we doing to help these vendors comply with the law without making them suffer because they sell on the streets, so they can survive because they are unemployed?
As we make laws, let's deal with those unintended consequences that may arise, excepting those that are not clear as this is promulgated into law. But where those unintended consequences are very clear, let's find mechanisms to deal with them so that the unemployed that survive in this way do not get hurt.
I come from Limpopo, Polokwane in particular. Some 200 km north, there's a port of entry called Beit Bridge, just outside the town of Musina. The storages or house halls are full of "fong-kong" cigarettes confiscated coming from outside the country illegally. How many more of such illegal cigarettes enter the country without being noticed? How is this affecting the formal industry that pays taxes to our government?
We believe there's a need to consider not prohibiting one-on-one communication. As the law stands now, that has been prohibited but we believe it can be avoided. This port of entry that is in Polokwane reminds me of many things that are coming out of Polokwane - the stories are there.
On a point of order: Can the hon member just explain to us what "fong-kong" is?
They are illegal cigarettes.
Limpopo is very special: Azapo was born there; the PAC split there; South Africa's democracy started to be brewed for the future in Limpopo, at Polokwane; and we are expecting good things to come in the new year from this part of the country. [Interjections.] [Time expired.]
Hon House Chairperson, Deputy Minister, chairperson of the select committee and hon members present, one is indeed honoured to address you in this august House on an issue that brings together consensus of national, provincial and local spheres of government, namely the health and wellbeing of our people.
Our gathering here also reflects the role and importance of this institution, the diversity of a nation as well as its critical role in shaping social cohesion and helping us to make decisions that are in the best interests of all.
This piece of legislation before us reflects what is best in a democracy. Firstly, every citizen has the right to free expression and choice; secondly, the interest of an individual, be that a real person or an entity, must be considered against that of the collective; and thirdly, the rights of the vulnerable, be they minors, youth, the aged, or even the unborn, should be protected. In weighing up conflicting interests, as we have to do in this piece of legislation, we should take all the above into account and still engage in public debates and consultations. Thus we have seen the culmination of this piece of legislation as a process that started as early as 1999, with the objective of regulating an industry that is intrinsically harmful to the health and wellbeing of the people.
I must admit that I have recently been deployed to this portfolio. I even had to start reflecting on my own health practices. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]
The Tobacco Products Control Amendment Bill reflects both the robustness of the process of consultation that has been undertaken in order for it to be tabled here today, and the overwhelming consensus that the health and wellbeing of our people take precedence over all else, and that this House and our legislative system at large must uphold and act in the best interests of our people.
I have been told that in South Africa over 42 000 people die every year from smoking-related diseases, including many forms of cancer. I was also informed that tobacco is also the biggest preventable cause of death in the world. According to the World Health Organisation, WHO, globally most people start smoking before the age of 18. Almost a quarter of these individuals begin using tobacco before the age of 10. Therefore, when the younger children try to smoke for the first time, they are most likely to become regular tobacco users and to be killed by it.
In the Western Cape we did a study where we found that close to 50% of pregnant women are drinking and smoking. Obviously, that could lead to the fetal alcohol syndrome that in its implications has an impact on children, even before they are born. That brings with it social defects and a range of other matters. Therefore we have to deal with this in a very direct way.
In the current environment in which many other forms of substance abuse has spread in our schools and communities, one wonders how many people used cigarette smoking as an entry point for the abuse of other recreational drugs such as dagga, heroin and tik. I believe that this amendment is a step in the right direction and demonstrates our government's commitment to protect our people from the harmful effects of tobacco, be that directly from smoking or passively inhaling.
The Bill in front of us is geared at improving the operation of the Tobacco Products Control Act and also seeks to deal with new practices, which we have seen coming through the last couple of years, designed to circumvent the provision of our legislation. Most of the submissions received in the Western Cape supported the amending Bill. Some have proposed stringent measures in enforcing and monitoring the policy on smoking in public institutions, places or even private homes.
However, two international companies have made submissions and have opposed the draft Bill, but I have to say that what they have tried to do is to advance corporate interests above public health. I just want to give two examples of that.
With respect to clauses 3,(9)(a)(b) and (10), we received a proposal from the Tobacco Institute of South Africa that there should be an exclusion clause in so far as signage and notices on the point of sale of the amendment Bill is concerned. However, our position is that the object of the amending Bill is to enforce compliance and ensure exemption as far as tobacco manufacturers, retailers, distributors and sellers are concerned to contain the prescribed information regarding any tobacco product available at the place of business.
Another example is in clause 3(2) where Japan Tobacco International said to us that organised activity in the legislation goes against the business culture because it prohibits the tobacco manufacturer, distributor or retailer from organising, promoting or making a financial contribution in respect of an activity related to tobacco.
Our position is that every manufacturer and importer of a tobacco product should provide information about the product to the relevant Ministry and the public as may be prescribed, in the prescribed manner and within the prescribed time.
Therefore, according to the type of submissions we received from the 20 national institutions, we felt that those supporting the changes were still trying to slip in very subtly subjective interests. Therefore, we will be monitoring the way in which the implementation of this piece of legislation will be happening - if it is going to be passed.
Having said that, the amending Bill was supported by the majority of individuals and institutions that made representations in this province. We, therefore, on behalf of the provincial government and the Department of Health in the province in particular, have no hesitation to declare our support for the Tobacco Products Amendment Bill, 2008. I thank you. [Applause.]
Sihlalo, njengeNdlu Mkhandlu Wezifundakazi sidlala indima ebalulekile uma kwenziwa umthetho, ikakhulu lo mthetho esingawo namuhla lo obizwa ngokuthi yi "Tobacco Products Control Amendment Bill".
Njengoba ozakwethu sebephawulile Sihlalo, ngenhloso yalo mthetho esiwuhlongozayo. Lapha asilwi namuntu kepha siphucula izimpilo zabantu, sibakhuthaza ukuthi bangashisi amaphaphu abo kanye nawabanye abaseduze nabo phecelezi loku esithi yi "passive smoking".
Malungu kufuneka nazi nani ukuthi njengekomidi lezempilo, asilona ikomidi lezifo kepha siyikomidi lezempilo. Nani malungu kufuneka nivikele umphakathi ungathathelwa yizifo abangazibizanga. Uthola umuntu eshayela inqola yakhe egibeze izingane ezincane kepha uyabhema phambi kwazo. Ngiyethemba ukuthi iningi lenu alikwenzi lokhu ngoba nizabe nephula umthetho.
Malungu qaphelisani abantu ukuthi akulungile ukuthi babheme usikilidi phambi kwezingane ngoba izingane lezi zihabula intuthu ezokwenza ukuthi amaphaphu azo angabi sesimeni esihle. Ngalo mthetho sithi phansi! ngababhema phansi kwezingane phansi! Eyokuthi akubhenyelwa emphakathini, ikakhulu endaweni zomphakathi masincome ukuthi lokhu sekuyahlonishwa.
Sonke sesibonile abantu abaningi uma ngabe bephambi kwendawo lapho kugcwele khona abantu, abasawukhiphi usikilidi wabo. Ngithemba nani malungu seniyaqaphela ukuthi abantu abaningi ababhemayo sebayawahlonipha lama lungelo abantu. Lapho siyancoma kepha ngeke sazi kulabo abahamba baye ezinkundleni zebhola njengalaba abahlala kuma "XX-strong" ukuthi ngabe khona kuyahlonishwa na.
Okunye okubalulekile ukuthi uma nidla ezitolo zokudla, ezinjengo Nandos noma oKentucky nakuzo zonke ezinye izindawo lapho kudlelwa khona, kuzofuneka niqaphele ukuthi indawo la kuhlala khona ababhemayo ingabe ikakelwe kahle na. Niqaphelise nanokuthi izingane ezincane azingeni nabazali bazo uma ngabe beyohlala kulezo ndawo ezinjalo.
Uma nimbona umzali ekwenza lokhu ningesabi ukubiza imenenja yesitolo, niyitshele ukuthi loko okwenzakalayo akukho emthethweni. Nimkhuthaze naye ukuthi njenge lungu lePhalamende nawe ungathanda kube kuhle ukuthi izingane lezi zifakwe lapho kungabhenyelwa khona.
Mihla lena malungu nani niyazi, manishayela emigwaqeni nibona loku okusa bafanyana bemi emakhoneni, bedayisa usikilidi bekubiza ngokuthi yi "loose cigarette" noma abanye bakubiza ukuthi ngetsotsi taal bathi "loose draw" abanye sebephucukile bathi ama "RDP".
Ngokomthetho lokhu akuvumelekile bephula umthetho kodwa ngoba bezama ukuziphilisa. Kuzofuneka sibabonise izindlela zokuthi bakwazi ukuziphilisa kunokuba badayise usikilidi, babe bengavezi ukuxwayisa abantu ukuthi ukubhema loku kuzobalimaza. Futhi kwesinye isikhathi lo sikilidi odayiswa emakhoneni besebeshilo ukuthi okunye kwawo kungama "fongkong", akubonisi ukuthi ingabe izinga le"nicotine" okanye i"tar" lingakanani.
Mhlawumbe Sekela Ngqongqoshe Wezempilo, kuzofuneka senze umthetho ophoqelela nalaba abadayisa emgwaqeni, ukuthi mhlawumbe bagqoke izingubo ezinophawu olubonisayo ukuthi ukubhema loku kubungozi. Ngithemba nabamabhizinisi ngibapha amacebo uma ngithi mabakhande lokhu esikubiza phecelezi sithi ama "reflector vests" asho ukuthi ukubhema kuyingozi noma akudwetshwe iphaphu lomuntu eselimosakele limoswa usikilidi.
Ngenyanga ka-Agasti siyikomidi savakashela ifemu ye"British American Tobacco" laphaya eHeidelburg, lapho besiyozibonela ngawethu ukuthi ingabe lengozi iqala kanjani ngaphambi kokuba ifike emaphashini akho. Saphinda futhi savakashela izitolo elokishini lase Ratanda, siyobheka ukuthi ingabe izimpawu bayazibeka na ezikhombayo ukuthi izingane ezingaphansi kweminyaka eyishumi nesishagalombili azidayiselwa usikilidi. Nakhona lapho sathola ukuthi bayawuthobela umthetho laba baka BAT.
Masibashayele ihlombe ngoba laba ababadayisela usikilidi bayabanika nezimpawu zokuveza ukuthi usikilidi awudayiselwa izingane. Inselele esayibona ukuthi laba bama "spaza-shops" nalaba abadayisa emgwaqeni bona abanalo uphawu olubonisayo ukuthi akudayiselwa izingane ezingaphansi kweminyaka eyishumi nesishagalombili. Nithemba ukuthi laba baka BAT bazazama bancede ababadayiselayo ukuze bagcine imakethe yabo.
Uma ngiphetha-ke Sihlalo, siyinhlangano kaKhongolose siyazi ukuthi ngo1955 senza umbiko wethu esiwubiza ngokuthi yi "Freedom Charter". Ngalokho besizama ukubonisa abantu ukuthi ezempilo ziyizinto ezibalulekile,nanokuthi thina singamalunga kaKhongolose sithemba ukuthi wonke umuntu uzophila impilo engcono, akwazi ukuthi aphile kahle futhi aphile isikhathi eside.
Niyazi ukuthi siyawakhuthaza amalunga ukuthi awophila lempilo esiyibiza ngokuthi yi "Healthy Life Styles" ngamanye amazwi sisho ukuthi ngaphambi kokuba udle, ubobuza kuqala ukuthi ngabe usawoti utheliwe nasekudleni.
Ungabothatha usawoti uthele ngoba uzobangela lezifo eziningi, ezihlangana nako loku bhema lokhu. Ngiyathemba ukuthi nalaba ababhema usikilidi bazakunciphisa nabo, ukuze baphile impilo ende kakhulu, Sihlalo. Siyabonga. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu speech follows.)
[Ms N F MAZIBUKO: Chairperson, as the National Council of Provinces, we play a vital role in the passing of Bills, especially the one that we have convened here for today, the Tobacco Products Control Amendment Bill.
As my colleagues have spoken about the aims and objectives of the Bill, it is clear that we are by no means fighting anybody here but, on the contrary, we are trying to improve people's lives. We are encouraging them not to damage their lungs and those of the passive smokers next to them.
Hon members, you must know that as the Select Committee on Social Services, which includes health, we are not a committee of diseases but a health committee. It is also your duty, hon members, to protect the public from contracting diseases that they have not exposed themselves to. Sometimes you find someone driving his car with young children but smoking in front of them. I just hope that most of you here are not doing this because by so doing, you would be breaking the law.
As members you need to warn people that it is not right for them to smoke cigarettes in front of children because these children will, in turn, inhale smoke, which will cause their lungs not to be in a good state. And with this Bill, we are saying away with those who smoke in front of children, away! We are also generally pleased that no smoking is now taking place in public, especially in public places.
We have all seen that many people when they are in public places no longer simply take out their cigarettes and smoke. I hope that members have also noticed that most smokers are now respecting these human rights. We praise that, even though we are not sure if the same can be said of the people watching soccer matches in the stadia.
Another important thing is that when you eat out in restaurants like Nando's, Kentucky Fried Chicken and all other restaurants, you must check whether the section dedicated to smokers is properly enclosed. You must also check that young children are not going in there with their parents.
If you, as a Member of Parliament, see a parent who is doing that you must not be ashamed to call the restaurant manager and tell her that what is happening is unlawful. You must also advise her that you, as a Member of Parliament, would like to see the kids being placed outside of the designated smoking areas.
Every day when you are driving on the roads, hon members, you see young boys standing on street corners selling loose cigarettes, which in Tsotsi lingo are called "loose draws", while some have upgraded and are using a different lingo in that they call them "RDPs".
This is unlawful. These young boys are breaking the law, even though they are trying to make a living. We need to show them other means of making a living instead of selling cigarettes, especially when they are not displaying the warnings on packages about the dangers of smoking. And besides, sometimes some of the cigarettes sold on the street corners are fakes, as mentioned earlier, and they do not show the levels of nicotine and tar in them.
Maybe, Deputy Minister of Health, we need to pass a law that will force street vendors to also wear gear showing that smoking is dangerous. I hope that business people out there are aware that I am now effectively giving them tips to start manufacturing reflector vests, on which would be written that smoking is dangerous, or perhaps they could have graphics of a person's lungs that have been damaged by smoking cigarettes.
In August we as a committee visited the British American Tobacco factory in Heidelberg, where we wanted to see for ourselves the processes that these dangerous goods through when they are manufactured, before they reach one's lungs. We also visited the shops in the township of Ratanda to check if they are displaying signs stating that tobacco is not sold to children under the age of 18. There too, we found that they are complying with the BAT laws.
Let us applaud these companies which sell tobacco to these shops because they also provide them with signs stating that tobacco should not be sold to children under the age of 18. I just hope that the BAT will try and help those that they are selling to in order to keep themselves in the market.
In closing, Chairperson, as the African National Congress we all know that in 1955 we came up with the Freedom Charter. With it we were trying to show people that health matters are important, and that as members of the ANC we hope that everybody will live a better, longer life.
You know that we encourage our members to live according to what we call a "healthy lifestyle", in other words, we mean that before one eats, one must first enquire if food has been seasoned with salt. One must not just add salt, because one may end up contracting diseases that add up to the problems created by smoking.
Chairperson, I hope that even those who are smoking cigarettes will smoke fewer cigarettes, so that they can live longer. I thank you. [Applause.]]
Sihlalo ohloniphekile, neNdlu yonke, Mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe woMnyango, engingakusho namhlanje ukubonga igalelo eselenziwe uMnyango Wezempilo ukulwa nalesi sitha esingugwayi.
Ugwayi umnandi kabi kwabawubhemayo kodwa ekugcineni uyabajikela udle bona. Okufika kube kubi kakhulu ukuthi uyingozi kakhulu kuwena ongabhemi. Okunye okwenziwa yilaba abawubhemayo, ukungabacabangeli laba abangabhemi uthole sebewuphafuza phakathi kwabantu, abanye ubahile, kuvuke ukukhwehlela futhi abanye bacinane.
Siyethemba ukuthi leli gxathu elithathwe nguMnyango Wezempilo ukunciphisa nokuqeda ugwayi lizovikela izingane nentsha yethu ezinkingeni ezivela ekubhemeni ugwayi.
Imali iyamoseka kuthengwa intuthu esikhundleni sokudla. Ugwayi umosa imali okufanele yondle umndeni. Ugwayi ubhubhise imizi nemfuyo ngenxa yezinqamu ezintshingwa noma kanjani zisavutha. Ibhubhile imizi nemfuyo, nemijondolo eminingi ngenxa yezinqamu zikagwayi ezintshingwa zivutha. Thina beyiNkatha Freedom Party sithi phambili nemizamo yokuqeda ugwayi, phambili! [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu speech follows.)
[Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Hon Chairperson, the House at large and hon Minister, what I can say today is simply to thank the Department of Health for its contribution in fighting this enemy called tobacco.
Smoking is a very sweet and nice thing to those who are smokers, but it is that very sweetness which consumes them in the end. What is even worse is that smoking is more dangerous to the nonsmokers. Another thing is that smokers are inconsiderate when it comes to nonsmokers. Sometimes you find them puffing their smokes amongst other people, and in the process some people would get choked, others would cough, while others get their breathing blocked.
We just hope that this step taken by the Department of Health to mitigate and abolish tobacco will protect the children and the youth against the problems caused by smoking.
Money is wasted in buying just one smoke instead of food. Smoking wastes the very money that should be supporting the family. Smoking has destroyed houses and livestock because of cigarette butts which are thrown away carelessly while they are still burning. Many houses, livestock and shacks are destroyed due to cigarette butts that are thrown while they are still burning. We, the Inkatha Freedom Party, say forward with the efforts to abolish tobacco, forward! [Applause.]]
Ms P MCKAY (KwaZulu-Natal): Chair, hon Deputy Minister, I just want to say that KwaZulu-Natal supports this Bill unanimously. We had four public hearings and we did note with concern the grievous harm done as a result of the ingestion of tobacco products by people in our country and in the world. Certainly, the Deputy Minister's remarks confirm this concern.
I would like to congratulate the antitobacco lobby group who came to our hearings and made sure we were informed in terms of facts and figures and that when we made our unanimous decision, we had the correct information at hand. But I also want to comment on the protobacco lobby group which came to our hearings and tried by various means to dragoon us into not passing this legislation. At one of our hearings about eight of us were sitting at a table in Durban at lunch time, and two members of the prolobby group came and sat down with us. They started talking about how wrong we were, and asked us questions about why we were not tackling alcohol in the same way. I just happened to ask both of them, "Do you smoke?" No, they don't smoke. "Do your families smoke?" No, their families don't smoke. Now, how do you have a prolobby group that knows how dangerous it is for them to smoke and for their families to smoke? So, really, this was not acceptable.
I particularly want to applaud the banning of the sale of cigarettes to those under 18 years of age. Some years ago, when I was managing a place of safety called Excelsior in Pinetown, KwaZulu-Natal, the children were rewarded from the age of 14 upwards by being allowed to smoke! As a social worker, I decided to tackle this and try to get smoking thrown out of that institution. I was not successful, because the other members of the management team said no, if you condemn smoking, you have no weapon whereby you can make children behave themselves. Luckily now, not a child in any of these institutions will be allowed to smoke.
I think we also need to tackle smoking in places like prisons, because it also is part of the prison culture. So I really want to commend this Bill for taking action against a very harmful practice that leads to early death and illness. It was mentioned by one of the speakers that some people make a living from selling cigarettes singly. Yes, we note that with concern; but at the same time we would not allow people to make a living from selling heroin, cocaine or other harmful products, so we cannot take that into consideration.
This Bill makes sure that when people smoke, they will know that it is harmful. The packaging of cigarettes will show them how harmful the product is that they are ingesting. Health warnings are indicated. Even information on how to quit smoking must be supplied to those who smoke. Maybe one day, colleagues, we will reach a total ban on cigarette smoking and maybe people will say enough is enough.
It's interesting to note that vending machines will now only be allowed in places which are legal smoking areas, and that one cannot sell cigarettes with cool drinks, chocolates and all sorts of other things anymore.
I just want to reiterate my dismay at the lengths to which the pro-smoking lobby goes - these parties that they have for children where they dish out cigarettes in order to lure them into smoking. I'm very glad to see that we are taking strong action; we are leaders in the world. Smoking is something we've approached in the right way. Let us continue to monitor this. Thank you.
Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister and hon members, what I am going to say today as regards the Tobacco Products Control Amendment Bill is from personal experience. My grandfather was a tobacco planter in 1962, when I was a young girl of eight. The male tobacco was called kodubane and it was for men. From it, Horseshoe and Boxer and so on were produced. The female tobacco was called "long one" and it was used by women. They used to snuff this tobacco. The two varieties had different features. The male tobacco had a tall, thick stem with broad, big leaves while the female tobacco had a short, thin stem with small leaves.
Tobacco is not a thing of today. It has been there for a long time but children of long ago were obedient enough to listen when their parents told them: "Tobacco affects your health, especially your lungs and your brain." Tobacco is dangerous when it is smoked inside the house. It affects the health of those around you who are not smoking, because when you smoke, they must also inhale the smoke.
Tobacco is bad for our health. We should respect the proverb which says: "That which is evil, is soon learnt." Tobacco is harmful to mankind, as it causes lung cancer, destroys new life in the prenatal stage when there is excessive smoking, causes bad breath, peels off the thin layer of skin on the upper and lower lips, turns the colour of one's teeth yellow and that of the gums green. It furthermore causes hypertension, strokes, microencephalitis, etc.
In some ways tobacco can be regarded as good for medicinal purposes, which is where the UCDP can agree on a low note. In terms of the Bill it will be illegal to advertise or promote a tobacco product through a sponsorship of any organisation, events or projects, or by any other method. The sale of tobacco products will be banned in any health establishment or place where persons under the age of 18 years receive education or training.
The ACDP will support the Bill if the above-mentioned provisions are implemented. I thank you.
Mr P GOVENDER (KwaZulu-Natal): Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, Chairperson of the Select Committee on Social Services, members of the NCOP and colleagues, I greet you this afternoon.
This Bill is an important piece of legislation that will serve to ensure a very healthy lifestyle for all South Africans who value good health. The hon Vilakazi earlier dispensed some very good advice, being the responsible mother that she is, as well as a good South African, and I'm proud to say that she comes from KwaZulu-Natal. I am happy that the hon Sulliman was in the House at that time to hear that good advice, but unfortunately he has now left. [Interjections.]
It must be mentioned at the outset that we in South Africa have come a long way in legislating and enforcing laws that pertain to smoking habits in our country. One only has to be observant in many public places to see that those law-abiding citizens will obey the laws that exist by only smoking in places that are designated as such.
Focusing on the legislation at hand, I must state that I support this Bill fully. However, I have certain concerns. I believe that there will be difficulties in the implementation of this Bill, especially when it comes to the issue of the sale of tobacco and tobacco products to minors. It will be very difficult for the Police Service, in particular, to enforce such a law when they have more serious criminal cases to take care of. We know, as it is, that they are really stretched in their capacity to enforce this kind of legislation. Nevertheless, I am hoping that they will be successful.
I am pleased to see places specifically designated for smoking in public areas, especially in restaurants. These areas are often enclosed spaces that do not allow cigarette smoke to filter out. Something which concerns me, however, and I think it was raised earlier by the hon Mazibuko, is that these areas are often frequented by families who take small children and even babies along into these areas. The parents are happily puffing away while these children are inhaling the secondary smoke which has already been proven to be more dangerous than the smoke that is inhaled through a filter by the smoker.
I also think that there are loopholes in clause 2, which deals with advertising and sponsorship issues, and I am sure that the cigarette companies and those who deal with tobacco products have already found loopholes in this clause that allow for indirect advertising via sponsorships to continue.
With regard to clauses 2(iii) and 2(iv), which deal with the warning signs, we from KwaZulu-Natal have been very vocal on the nature of these warning signs, their placement on or in the packages, the issue of language used, and also catering for those who are blind. We believe that the outside of the package does not allow sufficient space for adequate warning signs to be displayed. We feel strongly, as is the case with the packaging of medical products, that there must be an insert which will clearly state the ingredients in that specific tobacco product, as well as the quantities and dangers of the tobacco, in all official languages. Citizens must be adequately informed and educated in order for them to fully comprehend the dangers associated with the use of tobacco and tobacco products. I am not certain as to whether tobacco and tobacco products have a lifespan, but, if so, the expiry date must also be stated on these warnings. I am also not convinced that the Bill goes far enough in restricting the use of tobacco products in other consumables. I refer here to a certain brand of tea containing nicotine that is marketed in some countries. We should be proactive, Deputy Minister, and prevent these products from reaching our shores, rather than seeking to address the issue after they have done so.
I support this Bill, and from KwaZulu-Natal we want to compliment the Department of Health on having ensured that this Bill is brought before us, as it will serve to benefit all South Africans. I thank you.
Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, senior officials of the department, I must say that most issues have been covered. As far as deliberations at committee level are concerned, there are no contentions or contestations arising from public hearings on the substance and content of the Bill.
Maybe it's important, Deputy Minister, to note that the lobbying and advocacy during this Bill was of the most robust I have ever seen, at least in committees I have participated in in Parliament. But unfortunately, this lobbying was not from the side of our people; it was from the industry. Our attitude has always been that they are welcome.
We engaged with the industry quite robustly. We agreed where we agreed and disagreed where we disagreed. We need to make this statement in public that when we differ with the industry, we are the final arbiters. We have a mandate as elected representatives in this country to make laws. When we differ with them and take a different direction, they need to respect that. We are the final arbiters; we are the only ones who are the final arbiters on any matter in this country for which there has to be legislation. We are quite concerned that some of the representatives of the industry were circulating messages through SMSes and e-mails to members, casting aspersions on the integrity of the process and senior officials of the department, in particular the director-general of the department, Mr Thami Mseleku, for lack of consultation.
This was of concern to us as a committee and we had to take up the issue as it would be wrong for the department to take such a Bill to Parliament without consulting sufficiently with stakeholders. The evidence presented before the committee refuted the claims that were made by the industry. We are quite confident and satisfied that sufficient consultation was undertaken by the department or Ministry with every stakeholder.
We want to further advise that consultation and interaction with government and Parliament in particular does not begin and end with the law-making process. We need to teach our people. I thought it was only people in the rural areas where I come from who did not understand how Parliament functions. But I have learned that even those who are learned and in industries that are resourced do not understand that they have the right, at any given time, to come and interact with government and Parliament on any issue of concern, as long as the issue is of a legislative nature. So I felt it was important that we made this particular statement.
We are happy that hon Mackay alluded to the robustness of the lobbying. Some even boasted about how they had convinced our provinces to take certain positions. But I went through the mandates from the various provinces and they refuted the claims that were made in some of the e- mails.
Hon Deputy Minister, I must also bring to your attention the concerns about the enforceability of the Bill. This was raised quite sharply before the committee, and we did not take for granted the capacity of the SAPS, our judiciary and the magistrates to take on the loads of people who might have violated this kind of legislation.
Our starting and ending point is that this kind of legislation deals with lifestyle issues. Critically, to success in this regard does not lie in this piece of legislation only. Public awareness is critical in terms of ensuring that we mobilise our communities, young people, elders, priests and everybody else within the community and in society in general to be aware and conscious about the effects of smoking. So this is one of the critical concerns.
In this respect, I think it is critical that we also challenge the industry to forge a very formidable and working relationship with government in terms of unleashing this kind of public awareness. This cannot be the role of government only. I think political parties also have a critical role to play in this. The issue of smoking and drinking is not something you do by law. It is something you do by persuasion. You don't do it mathematically and say, for example, that today hon Kgoshi Mokoena stopped smoking or drinking, and then say hallelujah, amen. It is about consciousness, mobilising society, changing values, changing the attitudes of people and changing the lifestyles of the people. I think this is the paradigm that should inform our debate and approach in relation to this particular Bill.
Lastly, we don't want the old apartheid sins. It is a fact that the majority of successful men and women in this country are from poor families. Some of them could afford to become doctors, advocates, priests and even Members of Parliament in this august House because their mothers sold umqombothi which was illegal.
It is a fact today that many children survive the cold nights of the winter, deriving their meal from the sale of tobacco - whether you call it a "loose draw", "RDP", etc, hon Mazibuko. We don't want the enforcement of this Bill without the necessary conscious approach to these people to mobilise them, make them aware and also teach them about alternative opportunities where they can sell other things instead of surviving on these kinds of things which are illegal.
That is the attitude we have adopted in this committee. We hope that we are not going to see local municipalities just issuing bylaws and government issuing regulations and our people in taxi ranks just getting their property confiscated. This is the kind of attitude we need to be conscious of when we deal with this.
Oliver Tambo said that one is not a leader if one doesn't understand their speed in relation to the speed of the masses. If you are moving faster than the masses and you think you are a leader, you may be confusing the people at times and you would not be aware because you would only be hearing their footsteps. This is one of the teachings of Oliver Tambo.
So, as we move with the implementation of this Bill, we need to prepare the ground in such a manner that our people will legitimately become part and parcel of the transformation of shifting their attitudes and lifestyles, and begin to venture into other options away from this killer lifestyle. Thank you very much, Chairperson.
Chairperson, I must apologise: Some members were whispering here that they could hardly hear me. I am struggling to project my voice.
Hon members, I must thank you very much for all that has been said. Altogether it amounts to an expression of support for the Bill and we really appreciate it. I will attempt to deal with some of the specific points raised by members.
Hon Masilo, chairperson of the committee, drew attention to the penalties and I think that is one of the most important aspects, ie that there is a more serious price to be paid for endangering the lives of our people. She hinted that some of the committee members do smoke and I heard demands for them to be named.
I don't know why hon Govender said that he wished that hon Sulliman was in the House. [Laughter.] Perhaps they were suggesting that hon Sulliman had gone out to smoke. That's the only link I could draw between the two. I'm just pimping the hon member, hon Sulliman, that he talked about you in your absence suggesting that you had gone out to smoke!
Rre Thetjeng, kgang e ya ga mme Mazibuko ya batho ba dikgwebopotlana ba ba rekisang "diloose draw" tse go tweng di bitswa "diRDP" le dintlha tse di tlhagisitsweng ke rre Setona, ke nnete gore batho ba itshedisa ka tsona. O tla gakologelwa gore mme Mackay o rile go na le batho ba ba itshedisang ka diritibatsi, a le bona re tla re ba itshwarelwe ka ga ele fa ba thiba tlala? Re tshwanetse go utlwisisa, mme maikaelelo ele go ba ruta, re ba kgaleme gore re fitlhelele mo le bona batla utlwisisang gore go itshedisa ka tsela e e bolayang set?haba, bogolo bana, ga go a letlelelwa.
Bana ga ba kgone go tsena mo mabenkeleng le mo madirelong a mangwe a a rekisang motsoko, ba ya kwa "dispaza shop", nako dingwe ba roma ke rona batsadi ba bona. E ke ntlha e e tla tlhokang gore re e tshwaraganele re le set?haba. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)
[Mr Thetjeng, Ms Mazibuko's point about people with small businesses who are selling "loose draws", that are said to be called "RDPs" as well, and the points raised by Mr Setona are true. People are making a living out of them. You will remember that Ms Mackay mentioned that there are people making a living out of selling drugs. Are we also going to say they must be forgiven because they are avoiding starvation from hunger? We need to understand, with the aim of educating and reprimanding them in order to reach a point where they will also comprehend that making a living in a way that kills society, especially children, is not allowed.
Children are not allowed to enter shops and other outlets that sell tobacco products. Instead they go to the "spaza shops", and at times they are sent by their parents. This is an issue that we will need to tackle together as a nation.]
Order, hon Deputy Minister! Could we please get interpretation?
MOTLATSATONA WA LEFAPHA LA PHOLO: Ke ratile mantswe a ga rre Setona a a reng re utlwisise gore re tswa kae; gore re godisitswe ke bona bomm ba ba neng ba rekisa "umqombothi" le tsona "diloose draw", mme re sa lebale gore le ka tsona dinako tseo e ne e le mafelo a a neng a tsenwa ke bagolo fela e seng bana, jaaka gompieno. Se re tshwanetseng go se kgalema ke gore mo malatsing a, bana ke bona ba nwang bojalwa e bile ba tsubang. Mantswe a ga mm Kgarebe a gore peleng bana ba ne ba utlwa batsadi ke boammaruri, ke a a tshegetsa. Rona ba bangwe ga e sa le re letile bomalome gore ba tle go re naya bojalwa le motsoko, ga ba goroga. Ke mo ga ke tsube, ga ke nwe, ka ntlha ya gore malome o ganne. Re tshwanetse go kopanya molao wa setho le molao o re o fetisang gompieno gore re sireletse bana ba rona le set? haba. (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)
[The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: I cannot agree more with Mr Setona. We must understand where we come from: We were nurtured by mothers who made a living by selling "umqombothi" and "loose draws", but we should not forget that even then it was only adults who were allowed in those places, unlike today. What we regret is the fact that children today are the ones who drink and smoke. This is true, and I also support Ms Kgarebe's view that children in the past obeyed their parents. Some of us have long been waiting for our uncles to give us approval of drinking and smoking, and they have not arrived. Here I am today; I neither smoke nor drink, just because my uncle did not approve of it. We must incorporate the element of human morality into this law that we are passing today so that we can protect our children and society.]
Hon Thetjeng refers to questions of choice, while other members have referred to questions of rights. Certainly we have to identify choices that are harmful to society. And, indeed, when it comes younger people, there are some choices that are harmful to them and cannot be allowed on the basis that our Constitution guarantees certain rights and choices.
The hon Fransman made the point about the extent of smoking amongst pregnant women which reflects the harm done to unborn children. I think that is the most serious warning about the impact of smoking amongst our people and makes the case for this Bill even stronger.
Hon Mazibuko, I have considered your remarks and, certainly, also the matter that you've raised about sellers who are being forced to display prominently the signs about the dangers of smoking. I think the hon Govender was calling for the same thing, that sellers must be forced to display even more graphically the impact of smoking. I would agree with him; that is what we are providing for.
We have to consider what will be economical - the size of the picture, how many words do we print and so on - for the producer. And we've tried to strike a balance between the amount, space and cost of the message without compromising on the message to be conveyed. It is, indeed, unfortunate that we could not go as far as forcing people to print the information in Braille, as hon Govender suggests.
Mama Vilakazi, it's true, you have made a very basic point about the economics in the home and the dangers of smoking. But, indeed, people divert money from food. The Minister of Finance can increase the price and tax for tobacco - which is one of the deterrents - but instead of people reducing the money they spend on tobacco, they reduce the money spent on food and other essentials. I think we, therefore, have to make it a point that people don't smoke so that the choice between food and cigarettes is not made at all. The fires that we regularly see in poor areas are a known and very tragic fact which we are familiar with.
Ms Mackay, your reference to children being rewarded with smoking brings to mind the tot system of the past - a very evil system. I can't imagine anything more gruesome than that.
Hon members, I've tried to cover all areas and we have, indeed, noted some of the points. The point made about the campaign going into the prisons is very good and will have to be followed up because people have again talked about all sorts of dangers prisoners are exposed to there. They have never mentioned smoking, which is something we need to look at.
I have not responded to every specific point, hon members. Some of the points raised are taken as advice. In fact, I believe that it's better to incorporate them into our regulations. It's not been possible to incorporate every concern into the Bill as it is now. But there will be an opportunity when we draft the regulations to address some of the points you have raised. The regulations will also make it possible to be speedy and flexible in tightening up this Bill as and when it's necessary.
Yes, it's true that this is not a battle we are going to win with legislation only. We've done very well as a country through legislation and we are a world leader. So I agree with members and hon Setona, when he said that it has to be about values, community pressure, popular sanction and disapproval that make it a shame, costly and totally unacceptable for people to smoke.
The fact is that the tobacco industry is shifting from the West to the East and South - that is, the countries of the South. They are shifting within countries; and from the rich to the poor as they chase new markets. So it is a serious struggle and we do need to mobilise all of the sectors and all our people.
Once more, hon members, thank you very much for your support in this important work. I thank you. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Bill accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Order, hon members! I just want to confirm for the Deputy Minister that there are three members of the House who have promised to embark on the stop-smoking campaign. I've been informed that they will be led by the hon Sulliman, followed by hon Darryl Worth and hon Setona. [Applause.] I hope they will fulfil that commitment. [Laughter.]