Before I invite the next speaker, I wish to acknowledge the presence in the gallery of Justice Akilano Akiwumi, chairperson of the Kenyan parliamentary tribunal, and his delegation. [Applause.]
Mr Speaker and hon members, Alexis de Tocqueville, that masterful observer of the developing American democracy, once said the following of the great moments in a nation's existence:
But epochs sometimes occur in the life of a nation when the old customs of a people are changed, public morality is destroyed, religious belief shaken, and the spell of tradition broken, while the diffusion of knowledge is yet imperfect and the civil rights of the community are ill secured or confined within narrow limits. The country then assumes a dim and dubious shape in the eyes of the citizens ...
I think the ANC and its new-found ally, the IFP, have just squandered such an opportunity to correct the mistakes made by the same ANC by appointing a weak council and repeating the same mistakes again.
Moving from history to modern science, Albert Einstein also remarked that if we continue the patterns of thought that got us into trouble, to search for solutions, we are guaranteeing bigger trouble.
And on this point, I think what we have witnessed with the decision on the SABC board can best be described as the better we get at doing the wrong thing, the more wrong we become.
It also reminds me of an interview Max du Preez had with Breyten Breytenbach in the early nineties when he had the following to say about a comparison between the ANC and the National Party, the NP:
... eintlik is die NP en die ANC, met hulle houtgeweers ten spyt, baie nader aan mekaar, want hulle is magshandelaars. [... the NP and the ANC are actually closer to each other because they are both power brokers, notwithstanding their wooden guns.]
Yes, Mr Speaker, the ANC and their new, withering ally, the IFP, have just demonstrated to the rest of South Africa that they do not recognise the big moments in a nation's life when they can fundamentally alter course and change the direction in which our national broadcaster is moving. They are also still using the same thinking that brought the previous board into so much trouble to reappoint this interim board.
By applying the same methods, they are guaranteeing us a failed outcome and despite all the rhetoric by President Zuma on international podiums and forums, the ANC only understands political power that is to their advantage. The fact that the winning party in an election received a mandate to serve the nation, to rule in the general interest, is lost to the ANC. Again they have applied their electoral mandate in the narrowest of applications, that is to be true to a power broker. Breyten Breytenbach had the insight to see this more than 15 years ago.
Vryheid van spraak is van die fundamentele beginsels in ons Grondwet. Die ANC het ongelukkig een van die grootste oomblikke sedert ons demokrasie se wording opgemors. Van die hand na die mond val die pap op die grond. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Freedom of speech is one of the fundamental principles of our Constitution. Unfortunately, the ANC has messed up one of the greatest moments since the advent of our democracy. There's many a slip between the cup and the lip.]
The ANC is brilliant in their approach to solving problems. They, the ANC, don't have the ability to solve problems. All the ANC is doing, is to create more problems.
Mr Speaker and hon members, the ANC showed last week in the Portfolio Committee on Communications how stubborn and irrelevant they are. They are power hungry! The ANC does not know the meaning of the word "democracy"! The ANC, together with their new bedmate, the IFP, bulldozed the five people they decided on onto the interim board of the SABC.
It is astonishing that after 15 years in government the ANC cannot learn. They do not have the ability to recognise mistakes. The ANC, under the influence of power-drunkenness, must remember one thing: The people of South Africa are not stupid. [Interjections.]
Hon members, allow the speaker to be heard.
Die mense sien die ANC as 'n wolf in skaapklere. Wat het geword van die versoenende woorde van ons President? [The ANC is being viewed as a wolf in sheep's clothing. What has become of the reconciliatory words of our President?]
Oh, my word! What empty words! The President said in this House that the ANC wants to work together with the opposition. Which opposition? All the DA can say, is: "Et tu, Brute! [And you, Brutus!]!" The reverend of the IFP is now Reverend Brutus - the man with blood on his dagger. I can see how the ANC is shivering.
Hulle bewe van vrees vir ware opposisie. [They are shivering in fear of true opposition.]
Speaker and hon members, what the ANC did in the Portfolio Committee on Communications was disgusting. All they did was to transform Niekie van den Berg and all my opposition colleagues into the fiercest political opponents. [Time expired.]
Speaker, Cope can unfortunately not support the appointment of the interim SABC board today, since we reject the ANC's escalating politicisation of the public broadcaster with contempt.
We, however, do not question the integrity or the ability of the individuals who have been nominated. Our concern is that the board will lack expertise in financial management, which is a key performance area if the board wants to implement an urgent turnaround strategy for the corporation in the six months of their existence.
Cope's concern is furthermore the fatally flawed process which was followed. What promised to be an all-inclusive process initially, with proposals for nomination being tabled by all parties, unfortunately suddenly turned bad last Thursday when the ANC members of the portfolio committee dug in their heels and rejected excellent nominations made by opposition parties, simply because they were coming from those political parties. They steamrollered the process by co-opting the IFP - who played a double role in this process - essentially rejecting quality candidates who could have made a huge contribution to the interim board.
Speaker, this does not augur well for the independence of the public broadcaster in the future. Is this yet another attempt to control the SABC from Luthuli House or from the SACP headquarters in Braamfontein?
The SABC is facing its worst financial crisis in the history of the institution, with shocking prima facie evidence having been presented by the unions. If the arrogance of the ANC is anything to go by, we might soon face an attempt to cover up some of the scandalous financial irregularities which might implicate the ANC further - over and above the T-shirt scandal. Only time will tell! [Applause.]
Speaker, when the NA adopted the motion for the dissolution of the SABC board, it paved the way for the selection and appointment of an interim board to direct the affairs of the SABC until a new board has been selected.
The Portfolio Committee on Communications deliberated on possible candidates for appointment to the interim board, which are today presented before this House for consideration and approval. From the side of the IFP, we urge this House to endorse the names for appointment to the interim board of the SABC. [Applause.]
There is an urgent need to appoint this interim board, because the SABC cannot operate without the authority of a board when there's a need to take decisions that are beyond the scope and authority of the executive management of the corporation. The other urgent task that the interim board has to undertake is to devise a turnaround strategy and stabilise the financial and managerial affairs of the corporation. We have no doubt that the individuals who have been selected are people of impeccable credentials who will be equal to the daunting task that lies ahead of them. They, however, will have no magic wand. They will need to operate as a team to save the SABC from certain disaster, in the interests of the whole nation.
It is true that we, from the opposition parties, strongly urged the ANC to nominate three out of the five names presented here, so that the opposition parties could nominate two names, in the interests of inclusivity. However, when this was not possible, we had to make do with one name for the sake of progress and the urgency of the situation. We urge the majority party to be more flexible and accommodating when the process of the selection of the permanent board is under way in the near future.
Finally, and very importantly, these people will need our support in order to succeed. We thank them for making themselves available for this unenviable task and we wish them well. I thank you. [Applause.]
Speaker, the ID just wants to put on record that we have no problem with the nominated candidates; we do have a problem with the process that was followed of bulldozing through an ANC SABC interim board. I think the chairperson must also explain to this House why, when at one stage in the caucus the chairperson agreed that the opposition parties would put in two names, when we came back this was changed. It became very clear that this was a previous caucus position, so all the names that were nominated by the opposition parties were simply disregarded.
I really hope that, when we deal with the appointments of the permanent board, we will not have names that have already been agreed to even before we start the process, because then it will be a waste of time to go and sit for days in interviews, make contributions and at the end there's already a list that has been agreed to outside the portfolio committee.
I really want to plead with the ANC comrades, because we worked well together over many days trying to sort out the problems of the SABC board, but right at the end, after four hours of debate, the old ANC came forward and said: "No, we will give four names, and we will select one from the opposition parties, the IFP candidate." I thank you. [Applause.]
Betha, betha, betha, amagwala. [Beat, beat, beat the cowards.]
Speaker, hon Deputy President and hon members, the interim board should, in conjunction with the Department of Communications, hold a conference of all stakeholders to once and for all find broad consensus on what sort of public broadcaster we require. They must also ensure that, during their tenure, the inquiries into the allegations of corruption, fraud and mismanagement are not impeded or interfered with in any way by current SABC executives. In this regard, we would urge them specifically to look for cases of gross misconduct already identified in previous inquiries, and consider whether those implicated executives shouldn't rather be suspended, to prevent any attempt to derail the inquiry.
Lastly, they need to resolve the contentious issue that keeps undermining the public broadcaster. Already there is a dispute about the credentials of the interim board. I thank you. [Applause.]
Speaker, the hon Vadi mentioned the word "consensus". Now I want to say to the hon member: If you have five lions and a lamb in a meeting, it's not very difficult to get consensus on what they are going to have for lunch! [Laughter.]
Ek wil s daar is darem so een ligpuntjie in die samestelling van die tussentydse raad in die naam van Suzanne Vos. Die VF Plus glo dat dit darem so bietjie van 'n ligpuntjie is. Maar as 'n mens kyk na die proses wat gevolg is, as ons gaan kyk na die name wat genoem is, dan wil ek vandag vir u s ons sien nou maar vir die tussentyd net die enkelsnit voor die langspeelplaat van "His Master's Voice" [Sy meester se stem] wat kom. Die VF Plus sal dit nie steun nie. Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[With regard to the composition of the interim board, I would like to say that there is at least one ray of hope in the name of Suzanne Vos. The FF Plus believes that this is really a ray of hope. But when one looks at the process that was followed and when one looks at the names that were mentioned, then I would like to say to you today that in the interim we are only listening to a single track before the release of the long-playing record of "His Master's Voice". The FF Plus will not support this. Thank you.]
Speaker, the ACDP regrets that undertakings given by the ANC to seek consensus on the appointment of the interim SABC board were not upheld.
It is clear that, as in the past, the ANC used its majority to bulldoze its wishes through the Portfolio Committee on Communications. Regrettably, this means that the interim board will start off on the back foot, not enjoying broad political support. This could have been easily avoided had the united opposition choice of Prof Mamphela Ramphele been accepted.
Whist the interim board may have the necessary skills, and the ACDP has no problem with individual members, regrettably, it has been politically tainted from the very beginning. This it can ill afford, considering the huge financial, managerial and corporate governance issues that it must resolve. The ACDP will, therefore, not support this report. Thank you. [Applause.]
Speaker, the MF realises the necessity of the SA Broadcasting Corporation, SABC, interim board, but we are concerned that multiparty wishes have not been taken into consideration.
Furthermore, we say South Africa is a rainbow nation and has a composite culture. Does the interim board reflect the composite cross-cultural nature of the South African society? It does not. This is why there is no sense telling the world, when the Prime Minister of India comes here, that you praise the various communities and say that certain minority communities have made contributions, but you ignore them when you are considering the composition of the SABC interim board. For this reason, the MF will abstain. [Applause.]
Speaker, Deputy President of the Republic of South Africa, Members of Parliament and our guests, I will start by saying, maybe lambs must learn not to play with lions so that they do not get eaten.
When one door closes, many more open. Last week when we debated the resolution on the dissolution of the board, many speakers said that it was a sad day for the country, but today we must all agree that it is a new beginning and a new hope.
As we enter this critical debate today, millions of our people, including the public broadcaster employees, are anxious. For the employees and those who believe in the SABC, the tsunami came so suddenly, destroying their hard-earned savings and putting their jobs at risk, and they do not trust what they hear, see or read. Worse, they do not see what will turn things around and many are close to losing hope.
It remains our resolve to ensure that the right of our people to receive information is not compromised as we are on record as the country that needs to create an information society. To this end, the public broadcaster plays an important role. Our people have a right to information which allows them to make their choices. And we should not fail them.
On 30 June 2009, the SABC presented its strategic plan and its budget. However, it remains important to see how fast they implement these plans. The country needs your leadership. I am referring to the interim board, as the SABC is in a war for survival, beset by fears, uncertainty and doubts.
As on any battlefield, conditions demand a seriously different kind of leadership from that which is appropriate in peace time. Leaders must be prepared to make strategic, structural, financial and operational changes, many of them drastically, in a hurry, sometimes with incomplete information.
However, what I want to put on record is what really happened. As a committee we started the process of dealing with the nomination of the interim board on 25 June 2009, not as it has been reported. We dealt with that matter on 26 June 2009. We agreed that parties will make their submissions. When we met on 1 July 2009, Cope, the ID and the DA came with wish lists. Only the IFP and MF had proposed names. We were forced to deal with the names of the DA and Cope only on 2 July 2009, in the meeting which started at 12:30, because they did not honour the decision of the committee to submit their names early in the morning for the parties to be able to deal with those names. [Interjections.] That is a fact, nothing else!
It is important to deal with this matter now so that the creation of this hullabaloo is put into proper perspective.
The appointment of the interim board bears testimony to the fact that during the engagement all parties submitted their nominations. It is just that other people behave like children sometimes. When they are angry, they decide to withdraw everything. Unfortunately we cannot account for that. [Applause.]
I agree with Comrade Jessie Duarte when she said:
For this reason, the ANC would wish to see a board in place that is representative of our society in all its manifestations. The interests of the middle class and business can never be the only interests that find resonance in the type of people we need on a board such as the one the SABC must have.
In going forward, learning from the process which we are coming from and being directed by the legislation, namely the Broadcasting Act, Act 4 of 1999, which indicates that the board must be representative, we hope that we are going to be able to engage meaningfully, including with the opposition, to ensure that we get a board which is not going to be under dispute and which is going to be accepted by the society at large.
We followed the issue of T-shirts with great interest because it was raised in this House. We have received the response from the SABC clarifying the matter. The response from the SABC is here; it will be circulated to the parties in the committee. Indeed, we can confirm that the allegations were misplaced and not correct. [Interjections.]
I indicated when I started my speech that lambs must not play with lions if they do not want to be eaten. That is the safe way to go. I don't understand what the opposition is raising. I met with COPE. We had a bilateral with them. Cope persuaded the ANC and said: "In your five names, there are two lawyers. Can you withdraw one so that you give us as opposition a name?" We acceded to that as the ANC.
I hope the hon member from Cope will be sincere when dealing with this matter. I did not hear anything honourable in her statement when she was on the podium. We engaged bilaterally. We agreed to withdraw a name to accommodate the opposition. Why can't people tell the truth? [Applause.]
Speaker, I want to know if the hon member will take a question?
I always take questions in the committee and not here.
Let us afford the interim board a chance to perform its duties. We are calling upon the interim board to make sure that the Auditor-General's investigation continues unhindered so that we can uncover exactly what happened concerning allegations submitted by the unions.
We would like to appeal to civic society, the public broadcaster employees and all interested parties to give the board a chance to steer this troubled ship out of the troubled waters until the new board is appointed. [Time expired.] Thank you. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Question put: That Ms Irene Charnley, Dr Phillip Frederick Mtimkulu, Ms Libby Lloyd, Mr Leslie Kgopotso Sedibe and Ms Suzanne Vos be recommended for appointment to the interim board of the SA Broadcasting Corporation, and Ms Irene Charnley and Dr Phillip Frederick Mtimkulu be recommended for appointment as chairperson and deputy chairperson respectively.
Division demanded.
Mr Speaker, are you aware that at the back we have a number of members who do not have voting mechanisms on their desks and they will have to vote by raising their hands? I just wanted to draw that to your attention, sir. The Table staff are aware of it.
Thank you. Table staff, the suggestion is that those members who do not have machines in front of them, will have to come to the table to record their votes. Do not raise your hands or stand up, please just come forward to record your votes.
The House divided.
AYES - 239: Abram, S; Adams, P E; Ainslie, A R; Baloyi , M R; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Bhengu, P; Bikani, F C; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Bonhomme, T J; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Botha, Y R; Burgess, C V; Buthelezi, M G; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Chabane, O C; Chikunga, L S; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Zuma, N C; Dlulane , B N; Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M C; Dunjwa, M L; Ebrahim, E I ; Farisani, T S; Fihla, N B; Fransman, M L; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gcwabaza, N E; Gelderblom, J P; Gina, N; Godongwana, E; Gololo , C L; Gona, M F; Goqwana, M B; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Kenye, T E; Kganyago, N M; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Kota-Fredericks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Landers, L T; Lekgetho , G; Line, H; Lishivha, T E; Luthuli, A N; Luyenge, Z; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabedla, N R; Mabuza, M C; Madikizela-Mandela, N W; Madlala, N M; Mafolo, M V; Magagula, V V; Magama, H T; Magau, K R; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Makasi, X C; Makhuba, H N; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Malale, M I; Malgas, H H; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, J M; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Mandela, Z M D; Manganye, J; Mangena, M S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Masango, F T-T; Mashatile, P; Mashigo, R J; Mashishi, A C; Masutha, T M; Mataboge, D K; Mathebe, D H; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matladi, M N; Matlanyane, H F; Matshoba, J M; Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W; Mbili, M E; Mdaka, N M; Mdakane, M R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P; Mjobo, L N; Mkhize, H B; Mkhize, L N; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlambo, E M; Mlangeni, A; Mmusi, S G; Mnisi, N A; Mocumi, P A; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Moss, L N; Motimele, M S; Motlanthe, K P; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Motsoaledi, P A; Mpontshane, A M; Msimang, C T; Msweli, H S; Mthethwa, E M; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mufamadi, T A; Mushwana, F F; Muthambi, A F; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndabeni, S T; Ndlovu, V B; Nel, A C; Nelson, W J; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, W; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Nonkonyana, M; Nkwinti, G E; November, N T; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, Z C; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyama, M M A; Nyanda, S; Nyekemba, E; Oliphant, M N; Oosthuizen, G C; Padayachie, R L; Pandor, G N M; Peters, E D; Petersen-Maduna, P; Phaahla, M J; Phaliso, M N; Pillay, S M; Pilusa- Mosoane, M E; Pule, D D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, G S; Radebe, J T; Ramatlhodi, N A; Ramodibe, D M; Rantsolase, M A; Rasool, E; Saal, G; Schneemann, G D; Sefularo, M; Segale-Diswai, M J; Selau, G J; Sexwale, T M G; Shiceka, S; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhidla, N N ; Singh, N; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, S C N; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Skosana, M B; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Snell, G T; Sogoni, E M; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Stofile, M A; Suka, L; Sulliman, E M; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thobejane, S G; Tinto, B; Tlake, M F; Tsebe, S R; Tseke, G K; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Tsotetsi, D R; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Schalkwyk, M C J; Williams, A J; Xaba, P P; Xasa, T; Yengeni, L E; Zikalala, C N Z; Zondi, K M.
NOES - 96: Adams, L H; Balindlela, Z B; Blaai, B C; Boinamo, G G; Bosman, L L; Botha, T; Carter, D; Coetzee, T W; Dandala, H M; Davidson, I O; De Freitas, M S F; De Lille, P; Dexter, P D; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Du Toit, N D; Dudley, C; Duncan, P C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Figlan, A M; Fritz, A T; Gcume, N P; George, D T; George, M E; Greyling, L W; Groenewald, P J; Hoosen, M H; James, W G; Kalyan, S V; Kganare, D A; Kilian, J D; Kloppers- Lourens, J C; Kohler-Barnard, D; Koornhof, N J J v R; Kopane, S P; Kotsi, C M P; Krumbock, G R; Lamoela, H; Lee, T D; Lotriet, A; Louw, A; Lovemore, A T; Mac Kenzie, G P D; Madisha, W M; Marais, S J F; Masango, S J; Mashiane, L M; Maynier, D J; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mda, A; Meshoe, K R J; Michael, N W A; Mnguni, P B; Mnqasela, M; Mokgalapa, S; More, E; Morgan, G R; Motau, S C; Mulder, C P; Ndude, H N; Ngonyama, L S; Nhanha, M A A; Njobe, M A; Ntshiqela, P; Ollis, I M; Poho, P D; Pretorius, P J C; Rabie, P J; Rabotapi, M W; Schmidt, H C; Schmidt, J; Selfe, J; Shilowa, M S; Shinn, M R; Smiles, D C; Smuts, M; Spies, W D; Steele, M H; Steyn, A; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swart, S N; Swathe, M M; Terblanche, J F; Tolo, L J; Trollip, R A P; Van Dalen, P; Van Den Berg, N J; Van der Linde, J J; Van der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, S M; Van Schalkwyk, H C; Vukuza-Linda, N Y; Waters, M; Wenger, M.
ABSTAIN - 2: Bhoola, R B; Holomisa, B H.
Question agreed to.
Ms Irene Charnley, Dr Phillip Frederick Mtimkulu, Ms Libby Lloyd, Mr Leslie Kgopotso Sedibe and Ms Suzanne Vos accordingly recommended for appointment to the interim board of the SA Broadcasting Corporation, and Ms Irene Charnley and Dr Phillip Frederick Mtimkulu as chairperson and deputy chairperson respectively.