Chair, I move without notice:
That the Council notes and accepts the resignation of the Hon Mr T H M Mofokeng, MP, as a member of the Judicial Service Commission with his last day being 5 July 2009 and that the delegation from the National Council of Provinces be reconstituted as follows:
a) Mr M J Mahlangu b) Mr T A Mashamaite c) Ms B P Mabe d) Ms M G Boroto
Chairperson, I don't recall Mr Worth resigning from the Commission, and I didn't hear his name. I heard that Mofokeng had resigned and, therefore, that the delegation would be reconstituted. But Mr Worth's name was left out. Could I have an explanation please, Chair?
Chair, when I read the motion, I emphasised that the delegation would be reconstituted. I, therefore, as the Chief Whip of the NCOP, reconstituted the entire delegation, and the motion is that the four names that I read now will be the people who will make up part of Parliament's delegation to the Judiciary Service Commission.
Chairperson, I object strongly! This House adopted the committee that was put to the House. I don't see it anywhere in the Rules that the Chief Whip has the right to disband the committee and constitute a new one. I therefore strongly object to it! Now, I ask you to investigate it before we take a decision on this, because I think the House is out of order by simply leaving out the name of a member, a delegate from this House that was nominated and adopted by this House.
Chair, let me first apologise for making this a dialogue between Mr Watson and myself. I really apologise to you, Chair. I didn't mean this to go this way. But all I know, and all I know in terms of the NCOP, is that if you read the Constitution of the country, it will tell you exactly how many members must come from both the National Council of Provinces and the National Assembly. And it says - if I have to clarify this for Mr Watson - that in the National Assembly, it is six members, three of whom must come from the opposition parties. That has been done. Regarding the resignation, I have reconstituted the delegation and I am moving that the House adopts the motion. Nowhere does it speak about parties, or provinces.
It refers to four members of the National Council of Provinces. And I am being so slow, Mr Watson, so that you understand. If you consult your Constitution again, whatever investigation you do, you will be referred to the very Constitution I am speaking about now. There is nowhere else from where we take guidance. There is nothing that says that in the Rules of the NCOP. Mr ... ?
Hon Worth!
Hon Worth, thank you, Madam. Mr Worth, like any other member here and like me is a delegate of a province. Although I am a member of the ANC, I have been sent by the Western Cape. So, that's how it goes. I propose that we proceed, Chair. Thank you very much.
Chair, at no point did I refer to the hon Worth as a DA member. I referred to the hon Worth as a member of the committee that was elected by this House, and he has not resigned. I don't know where the Chief Whip gets the right to dismiss an hon member from whatever party who has been duly elected by this House. And I ask your ruling on that, Chair.
Hon Chair, I don't want to say this is a point of order, but the motion is that there should be a reconstitution of this delegation.
Yes, Mr Gamede, I was still listening. I am sorry for that.
Hon Chairperson, all I was saying is that the motion is about the reconstitution of the delegation.
Okay, thank you very much.
Hon Chairperson, with permission, it seems that procedurally everything is not in order in terms of the way that this process has unfolded. I therefore request your consideration that this matter be reconsidered and the motion not be put today. Thank you.
Okay. Let me just go through the Constitution first, which the Chief Whip has just quoted. It's section 178(1)(i), which says: "... four permanent delegates to the National Council of Provinces designated together by the Council with a supporting vote of at least six provinces ..."
Now, my reading into that matter is that one member has resigned. Therefore, when you reconstitute that, you reconstitute the whole delegation together. And that's what the Constitution is saying. I will allow the motion to test the provinces in terms of whether they vote for the motion, or don't vote for the motion. And remember we need six provinces to vote for the motion.
Chairperson, I wish to enquire through you from the Chief Whip whether the provinces were indeed asked to consider this vote that they are taking today, because I know for a fact that the Western Cape was not given that opportunity, and we control the Western Cape as the DA.
Well, I can put that question. But I've always said in the House that the Whips must consult one another. It shouldn't be the job of the Chairperson to consult with the Whips. The Chairperson puts the question to the House, and that is my job. But that's fine; I will do it through the Chief Whip if you want me to do so.
Chairperson, I speak as the Chief Whip but as Whips we are a collective. There is nothing in the Rules that says you must always consult. I am doing exactly my job as a member of the NCOP, and as a person who has been given this little manpower to make sure that the things that happen are in order. All that I have moved is in order. Yes, we consult from time to time. Today I really did not have time to consult with the Whips.
I think you have given a ruling that if six provinces here will support the motion, it will be agreed to. Let me just say one last thing: There were no promises to whoever, by whoever to say whatever. This is a motion that I am moving in this House. Finished.
Order! I am putting the motion now. Can I stop the dialogue? I've ruled on the matter.
I'm putting the question to the House. As there is no speakers' list, I shall now put the question. The question is that the motion be agreed to. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 178(1)(i) of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all the delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their province's vote. Are you all present?
In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces an opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. Is there any province that wishes to do so?
Declaration of vote:
Chairperson, the Western Cape will vote against the motion and expresses its objection that we weren't consulted on this before we got to vote.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West.
AGAINST: Western Cape.
Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 178(1)(i) of the Constitution.
Chairperson, just on a point of clarity: The Northern Cape delegation consists of six people. None of them were consulted. And I don't know on what basis our representative voted in favour ... [Interjections.]
All right. Be patient with one another.
Chairperson, I think you have given a ruling and the voting has taken place. There is no basis for what Mr Sinclair is saying. You can't reopen the discussion when we have already voted. [Interjections.]
Order! Before the closing of the House, I call upon the Deputy Chairperson. She has a ruling to make and then she will adjourn the House. [Interjections.] No, I am not taking any points of order.
Chairperson, is it parliamentary for an ordinary member to say: "Dit is onnosel [That is stupid]" to the Chairperson?
Chairperson, no, I didn't say so.
Chairperson, he said that. I can speak Afrikaans.
Take your seat, Mr Sibande. Mr Sinclair, did you say that?
Not to the Chairperson.
You said it to whom?
Chairperson, I referred to the hon Chief Whip.
But that is still wrong. Could you withdraw those words?
Chairperson, I will withdraw.
Thank you very much.
Chairperson, sorry again. After that, please, this thing mustn't happen like this. He is saying the Chairperson is stupid. [Interjections.] Who is stupid then? Who is stupid then? No! no! no! We can't use this language here.
Take your seat, Mr Sibande. Mr Sinclair, did you say that?
Chairperson, I didn't say the Chairperson is stupid. I already withdrew what I said to the Chief Whip.
Mr Sinclair, I said to you withdraw. Please can you withdraw those words.
Chairperson, I withdraw.
Respect one another in this House. You are not allowed, in terms of the Rules, to use such words.
Chairperson, then we must do it collectively, please.
Okay.