Chairperson, I would like to inform hon Lees that South Africa does not have a binational commission with Swaziland but has a Joint Bilateral Commission for Co-Operation, which is at ministerial level.
The bilateral commission was established in terms of an agreement between the two countries signed in 2004. The following departments are involved in the bilateral commission: International Relations and Co-operation; Home Affairs; Defence and Military Veterans; Higher Education and Training; Justice and Constitutional Development; Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries; Tourism; Trade and Industry; Public Works; Water and Environmental Affairs; the SAPS; and, lastly, the Department of Energy.
The selection of the departments involved is determined by the nature of the co-operation projects between the two countries. As provided for in the agreement establishing the joint commission, the mandate of the South African government departments participating in the joint commission is to promote economic and social development between South Africa and Swaziland, focusing on the jointly identified fields of health, science and technology, trade and investment, education, arts and culture, migration, agriculture, security and multilateral co-operation. I thank you.
Chairperson, I would like to thank the hon Deputy President for answering my question. May I ask what the involvement of the KwaZulu- Natal legislature is in this joint bilateral commission that was established, and in terms of what legislation that joint bilateral was established, if not in terms of the standard binational commission to which I referred?
Hon Lees, I'm really not aware that the legislature in KwaZulu-Natal is in any way involved in this binational commission; as I said, it is at ministerial level, so I wouldn't be able to shed any light on the involvement of the KwaZulu-Natal legislature. Thank you.
Chairperson, hon Deputy President, I would just like to know: Did we benefit from this bilateral since 1994? And I noticed that you didn't mention anything about global warming. We do have an agreement with Swaziland as well. Thank you, sir.
Chairperson, hon member, one of the departments that is involved is Water and Environmental Affairs, but in the fields that were jointly identified, obviously within the SADC region, there is co- ordination with regard to our positions on climate change - not so much global warming - particularly now in preparation for the impending Copenhagen Conference. There are exchanges at that level. Thank you.
All right, I see your hand, hon member; I am just looking for other people.
Chairperson, hon Deputy President, the relationship with Swaziland has always been a good one; however, there is a concern about democracy and I was wondering about the mandate. The mandate you said was to promote economic and social development. In that bilateral commission, is there any mandate at all to promote democracy in Swaziland?
Which binational are you now talking about, Mr Lees? I just want to be clear because the Deputy President said he is not aware of the binational between KwaZulu-Natal and Swaziland. Which one are you talking about?
Mr Chairperson, I am referring to the joint bilateral commission, which the Deputy mentioned, the ministerial one.
Chairperson, the relations between sovereign countries are governed by principles of the recognition of each country's sovereignty and the principle of noninterference in the domestic affairs of any country. The question that you are raising, therefore, which I am quite glad to respond to, is actually not a follow-up question in that it relates to the system of governance of Swaziland.
Development in Swaziland can only be influenced by the fact that we are neighbours and the fact that we have relations, that we have people-to- people relations and contact, that our people are able to move freely between the two countries and that over time, or in the fullness of time, if the citizens of Swaziland so desire they will no doubt find a way of crafting their constitution in a manner that permits the kind of democracy that we subscribe to.
At the moment it is a constitutional monarchy, and that is what we live with. Thank you.
Chairperson, please do not rule me out of order. I just want to say that Swaziland has a very special place in my life, as I spent my honeymoon there many years ago. [Laughter.]
It will be good if you go back. Go spend another honeymoon there! [Laughter.]
Involvement of traditional leaders in drafting of legislation
9. Prince M M M Zulu (IFP) asked the Deputy President:
(1) Whether our democratic dispensation provides traditional leaders with sufficient powers or adequate opportunity to be involved in the drafting of legislation; if so, what are the relevant details; if not, (2) whether any steps will be taken to enhance the involvement of traditional leaders in our democracy; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what steps;
(3) whether he will make a statement on the matter? CO232E
Chairperson, His Majesty, Prince M M M Zulu, I believe our democratic dispensation does provide traditional leaders with sufficient powers and opportunities to be involved in the drafting of legislation.
Traditional leaders, like any other citizens of South Africa, can draft legislation and request a Member of Parliament to table it as a Private Member's Bill. Alternatively, a traditional leader can request the National House of Traditional Leaders or a provincial house to table a Bill for the relevant Minister or MEC to process.
The Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Act goes further than this and makes it obligatory for any Bill that pertains to customary law or customs of traditional communities to be referred by the Secretary to Parliament to the National House of Traditional Leaders for comment. Thus, Parliament cannot pass a Bill dealing with customary law or traditional communities without the National House of Traditional Leaders having had the opportunity to make an input into the Bill.
I firmly believe that traditional leaders have been given an enhanced role in our democracy. As far as the law is concerned, traditional leaders have ex officio representation on municipal councils. They relate to provincial legislatures through provincial houses of traditional leaders and to the national government through the National House of Traditional Leaders. In addition, traditional leaders are consulted regularly by national, provincial and local government on a number of pertinent issues.
We are endeavouring to increase the capacity of traditional leaders through the National Programme of Support for the Institution of Traditional Leadership that was introduced in 2007. The roll-out of the capacity- building programme will commence before the end of this year and will continue throughout 2010. I thank you.
UMntwana M M M ZULU: Sihlalo wakuleNdlu, Phini likaMongameli wezwe, angikwazi ukukusho lokhu, ngikusho ngenxa yokungabi nalo ulwazi lokuthi kuhamba kanjani. Ngiyakubonga okushiwo yiPhini likaMongameli, njengendoda eyafundiswa ngogogo ukuhlonipha, kufuneka ngihlale ngikuhlonipha lokho.
Kodwa kuyiqiniso elimsulwa elingephikiswe phambi kukaNkulunkulu ukuthi yonke imithetho eshaywayo eqondene namaKhosi, ishaywa yithina osopolitiki. Akuwona amaKhosi okuhlalwa nawo phansi kuxoxiswane ukuthi kungasetshenzwa kanjani ndawonye. Ngisho ngoba nginolwazi lokuthi kuyenzeka. Kumanje imithetho ekhona ethinta ubukhosi, amakhosi akhulume ngezwi elilodwa onke. Kodwa Phini likaMongameli angiboni ukuthi thina njengosombusazwe sicishe sifike lapho amakhosi acabanga afike khona.
USIHLALO WOMKHANDLU KAZWELONKE WEZIFUNDAZWE: Nginethemba lokuthi uMntwana ubebeka umbono nje, ubengabuzi umbuzo wokulandelela odabeni. Kodwa ke ukuchaza kancane njengoSihlalo Womkhandlu Kazwelonke Wezifundazwe. Inqubo iyasho ukuthi omunye nomunye umthethosivivinywa oza kuleNdlu kufanele siwuthumele eziNdlini zamakhosi zonke, zezifundazwe kanye nale enkulu kazwelonke bakwazi ukuthi bahlabahlabe nabo, bese bebuyisela kithina sicubungule lokhu abakuhlabile, sithathe lokhu esikuthathayo, lokho nina eningakuthathi ningamakomidi ningakuthathi. Ihamba kanjalo inqubo. Kufuneka- ke uma ngabe asiyilandeli, siyilandelisise impela. Bengithi angikuchaze lokho, ngoba imigomo yethu isho njalo. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Prince M M M ZULU: Hon Chairperson and hon Deputy President of the country, I cannot say this. Hence, I am only saying this because there seems to be a lack of knowledge on how this should be done. I appreciate what has been said by the Deputy President, since as a man who was taught respect by my grandmothers, I should always respect that.
But the simple truth is that it cannot be disputed before God that all these Bills that are being passed with regard to the chiefs are passed by us as politicians. The chiefs themselves are included in the discussions on how we can work together. I am saying this because I know that it is happening. With regard to the current legislation pertaining to chieftainship, all the chiefs spoke with one voice. But, hon Deputy President, I don't think that as politicians we come close to the chiefs' level of thinking.
I trust that the hon Prince was just making a statement, and not asking a follow-up question. I would just like to clarify a few things as the Chairperson of the NCOP.
The procedure states that each Bill that is brought to this House should be forwarded to all the Houses of Traditional Leaders, and then back to the NCOP so that they can go through it and make recommendations. It is then brought back to us for further deliberation on their recommendations. We then adopt whatever we need to adopt and the committee rejects whatever they want to reject. That is the procedure. If we are not following it, we need to follow it to the letter. I thought I should clarify this because our policies state that. Thank you.]
Means to minimise state expenditure relating to geographic distance between location of Executive and Parliament
10. Ms N D Ntwanambi (ANC) asked the Deputy President: Whether there is any consideration by the government to move Parliament outside the Western Cape or finding means to minimise state expenditure relating to the geographic distance between the location of the Executive in Pretoria and Parliament in the Western Cape; if not, what measures is the government putting in place to minimise expenditure in respect of (a)(i) air and (ii) ground travel costs, (b) accommodation and/or (c) housing costs; if so, (aa) what is the process thus far and (bb) what are the considerations?