The proceedings will initially take the form of a question and answer session. I shall put each Vote in respect of which adjustments have been made in turn, whereupon members will have the opportunity to ask questions to the relevant Ministers, in respect of these adjustments. Each party has been allocated a global time for all Votes. Once a party's time has expired, they will not be allowed to put further questions. Members must please press the request to speak button, if they wish to ask a question. Hon members will please wait until I recognise them before putting their questions.
Vote No 1 - The Presidency - put.
Chairperson, the DA wishes to raise concern over the extra R7,6 million that has been allocated for the establishment of the hotline that was originally planned to be established for R4 million, especially around the fact that the operational functionality of this hotline is seriously questioned. However, our greatest concern is the additional R12 million allocated for outstanding legal fees. Our efforts to determine what these fees are for have yielded nothing to date. In the absence of this information, the DA cannot support this adjustment for this unavoidable and unforeseeable legal expense.
Chairperson, in respect of the hotline, I think that the hon Trollip would be aware of the fact that there were teething problems in the early period, but now it is entirely transparent. There is a flow of information and the responses are there. So, if the grounds that he opposes it on are the teething problems before the actual launch in the pilot period, I want to submit that the grounds are pretty spurious.
In respect of the legal fees, there are two aspects to this. The one is that it is very hard to budget for legal fees, partly because fees are generated, and you can't, in the middle of the year, say this particular litigation now has to end. In the course of an institution like The Presidency, anywhere, that there is extensive litigation, not just in the volume of litigation but also in the fees, it is something entirely outside of the control of any arm of government. For this reason, the request was put. The Treasury committee applied its mind to it, and I am pretty sure that this will be money well spent.
Chairperson and hon Minister, the view of the Congress of the People is that in the current economic and service delivery challenges facing our country, we definitely would have preferred that priority is given to funding service delivery programmes directly, rather than the expansion of the Cabinet, which cost an estimate of R170 million. Was there no alternative that could have been found to deal with the challenges facing the Presidency?
Hon Ngonyama, I am not quite sure where that view is from, because it might be way down there. In the context of the number of Ministries, I think that those who were around in 1994 will know that we moved straight in. All of the offices were there. But in the course of the past 15 years, a detailed evaluation was done, led by a team, which my colleague, Minister Chabane, actually led, that looked at every Ministry and its performance. It even went through the questions that I asked here in Parliament about them. Then the team arrived at a very strong motivation for the expansion of each of these. In the position that I am in presently, in the Planning Commission, I think it is something that we will debate on at some length tomorrow, but I think that the one issue that is not in dispute is that we need a planning capacity that hasn't been there. I think, similarly, if you explore all of the other Ministries, it is necessary to understand that we need to strengthen those who take policy decisions and those who will be accountable for those decisions, which is why the Cabinet was expanded in the way it was. Thank you.
Chairperson, this is just a follow-up. We remain concerned, hon Minister, that the cost of establishment was estimated to be R4 million. We are now allocating double that again to the hotline. The concern around the legal fees, and I accept that in the Presidency legal fees are very difficult to budget for, but we would like to know whether these legal fees have got anything to do with a legal case that the President was involved in, personally?
Again, I think that in the context of the conventions, if people are entitled to legal representation within the rules, all of these are aggregated and the decisions on the particular allocations are entirely fungible within the administration. You cannot say that there was a case running, arising from the point when his Excellency, Jacob Zuma, was Deputy President, and now he becomes President and you cut this thing off. I think that in the convention these things flow together, and it is necessary that we accept that as a norm.
What you can't escape from is that government runs in relation to opposition on the basis of trust as well. I want to look the hon Trollip in the eye and say that President Zuma, on a number of occasions, has taken unprecedented steps to work with the opposition, to afford them opportunities to ask their questions, to build trust, and it is very important that that be the platform that we take forward. Thank you.
Order! I see hon L Ramatlakane, hon D Carter, and hon H Ndude from Cope. Is it on the same question? Not on the same question? I am guided by the screen, because I only put Vote 1 so far, and now you have all pressed. Are you coming?
Chair, I am covered. My question was on the legal fees.
Chair, with regard to the adjustment, it is R170 million, of which R96 million is for unforeseeable and unavoidable expenditure, pertaining largely to the setting up of the new department, I understand, the new Ministries. My question, Minister, would be when is it expected that the two Ministries will be fully up and running, the departments fully up and running, as well as the third department? Are we going to be in a position next year, for example, where we are also having unexpected, unavoidable expenditure in respect of departments, which are still in the process of being established, or will this exercise be completed by the time of the main Budget next year?
Chair, the numbers for the three departments are quite different. The Ministry that deals with performance monitoring and evaluation already has infrastructure in place, because there was always a Ministry in the Presidency. In the adjustments estimate, there is provision for the expansion of that unit, so that should move through.
The Ministry of Women, Children and People with Disabilities will actually exit from the Presidency and establish its own infrastructure. That should be dealt with by the time of the Budget in February. Similarly, depending on what transpires in this House tomorrow on the Green Paper and the debate in the NCOP next week, we should, by the time of the Budget in February, have a fixed number. I think that the relationship that the Treasury would lead government into with Parliament is to try and provide maximum certainty, so that the provision for unforeseen and unavoidable expenditures is used sparingly. That would be the case now; it's been the tradition, and I would imagine that it would be a convention carried forward. Thank you.
Vote No 2 - Parliament - put.
Chairperson, can I just quickly ask you? One of our members, member Carter still wanted to ask a question on Vote No 1. She was mentioned.
Well, I did ask whether there were any, and then hon Ndude gave up, but we can go back to it then. Let's just get you, hon Carter. [Interjections.]
No, no, it is their time that they are eating into. Just leave it that way. It is the Rules.
Chairperson, thank you. Cope's concern is why has an additional R13 million been allocated for travelling expenses, etc. However, only R4 million has been allocated towards the Ministry of Women, Children and People with Disabilities.
You will notice that a number of new Ministries have been allocated money to start setting up their administrations and, as you know, most of them are new. That amount is basically for that purpose, and, as we go into the new financial year, when the systems and the administration have been put up by the various departments, including this one, whether a new budget is going to be allocated in accordance with the functions and the programmes, which will be in those departments. Basically, that is what accounts for the difference. Thank you.
Vote No 3 - International Relations and Co-operation - put.
Vote No 4 - Home Affairs - put.
Chair, in the light of the fact that R213 million has been allocated to the Department of Home Affairs, to a department that lacks proper financial management, lacks financial leadership and, of course, displays a consistent trend of qualified audits, I would like to ask the Minister: How will you ensure that we prevent this poor financial management in the future? For this reason we are opposing this increase.
Chair, before I even answer the question, the hon member has decided he is going to oppose. But anyway, I will answer the question.
First of all, until about two months ago the Department of Home Affairs had an acting chief financial officer, who had been seconded from somewhere. Now we have a permanent chief financial officer who is going to look after the finances of the department. Secondly, it is very clear that the major problem in terms of the qualification comes from the revenue. The revenue is collected, but it is not reconciled. So we are training our people in the offices that they must work almost like a bank, that every day they must say, this is the service that was requested, this is the amount that goes with this service, and reconcile every day. If they do that, we will be on our way to improving the financial management.
The second area of qualification was around asset management. The assets had been recorded, but the problem came when assets were moved. The problem was partly that the asset management was centralised. You cannot sit in Pretoria and be responsible for assets that are sitting in Pietermaritzburg. In every office there must be somebody in charge of assets, who will account for the assets in every office. But if you centralise it, it is very difficult to maintain good management of those assets. So we are doing that, but I think hon members must understand that we are training people to do this. It is not going to be an overnight thing. We are hoping that it won't be long before we also have a clean audit, but it is going to take a few months to do that.
I am just being honest with you, because I believe that I have to answer questions honestly and give the House an honest perspective. But it is regrettable that the hon member didn't even want to hear the answer before making up his mind. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr Chairman, we heard today from the Minister of Finance that the allocation to the immigration function of the Department of Home Affairs is tied to the development of the card component of the Hanis project. If I understood that correctly, the question is in developing the Hanis Project. How much of this money has already been tied into the decision to implement the smart card with its microchip component? If that has been implemented, how much consideration was given to the findings of the Buthelezi administration of the Department of Home Affairs that the microchip was a waste of money and the findings of the Prof Haysom Commission on the matter?
Ngicela angiphindele Sihlalo, angizwanga kahle ukuthi uthini. [Could he please repeat himself Chairperson? I could not properly understand what he was saying.]
The Minister is asking you to repeat the question so that she can understand the question properly.
With pleasure, Chairperson. The Minister of Finance drew a connection to the smart card. The options on the smart card are to have a microchip or no microchip. During the Buthelezi administration of the Department of Home Affairs ... [Interjections.]
Order, hon members!
... a commission was established, led by Prof Nicholas Haysom, which looked into the issue and decided that it was a waste of money, and that there were cheaper options. So the question is: How much of this allocation is already tied to a microchip smart card to complete the Hanis project?
Chairperson, on a point of order: The request came from the hon Minister for the hon member to repeat his question. Will that not eat into our time?
No, it will not eat into your time.
Thank you.
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZASEKHAYA: Sihlalo, ungibuza ngento eyenzeka mhlawumbe ngangisase Mnyangweni Wezempilo, mhlawumbe ngangise Mnyangweni Wobudlelwane Namazwe Omhlaba, angazi. Kunguye umluleki wayo yonke lento eyayenzeka. Kodwa impendulo yami ithi: ... (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, he is asking me about something that happened when I might have either been at the Department of Health or at the Department of International Relations and Co-operation; I do not remember. And he was the consultant for everything that was happening then. But my answer is ...]
... regarding the smart card, we have decided, as was decided by my predecessor, that the smart card is essential for the Department of Home Affairs, and we continue with that decision. Obviously, when we start putting together the smart card, we will decide whether it has a microchip or not. I think it would be necessary to have a microchip, but we are not there yet. Thank you. [Applause.]
Thank you, Minister. I want to really caution members that when you ask questions, they must be related to the subject matter, which is the Adjustments Appropriation Bill. You should not go all over, around those particular issues.
Chairperson, on a point of order: On the matter of adjustments, is it possible for anybody to adjust the air conditioning in here?
They will attend to it. Thank you for that.
Chairperson, the Minister of Home Affairs, in her budget speech to Parliament, was frank on the challenges faced by the Department of Home Affairs, and we gave an undertaking, as the portfolio committee, to work hand in hand with the department. As a result of that process, we have visited all major ports of entry to South Africa, and we have compiled a report on our visits and the challenges faced by the Department of Home Affairs.
When we started at the beginning of this year, there was a turnaround strategy in place to deal with a multiplicity of challenges, but there have also been successes. I am sure that the Minister would be able to brief the House on progress that has been made in regard to challenges found at the border posts and also the offices of the Department of Home Affairs. Thank you.
Thank you, hon Chair, and thank you to the chairperson of the portfolio committee. Yes, members would remember that my predecessor put together the turnaround strategy. Amongst other things, it would look at how to make sure that an identity document, ID, instead of taking 120 days or more, takes less time. Processes were put in place, and indeed a process was also put in place called "Track and Trace", which allows the applicant to track and trace where his or her application is. But the department also uses that "Track and Trace" process to inform members. Any member here who has applied for an ID recently will tell you that when they apply, they receive SMSes saying, "we have received your application", "now it is being printed", "now it is being dispatched", "now it is in the office where you can collect it". The turnaround strategy for the ID has resulted in an improvement of about 50% on the 120 days it used to take ...
Mr Chairman, on a point of order: You have just asked members to make sure that the questions are related to the Adjustments Appropriation Bill. What we are dealing with now, is way beyond that, Sir. I am asking you to instigate your ruling that in actual fact we focus on the issue at hand, which is the Adjustments Appropriation Bill.
I just said that members must be cautious, so I am hoping that they will be cautious. Let us just proceed and see the improvement.
Sorry, Mr Chairman, it is not just a question of being cautious.
Hon Ellis, I did make that ruling. I said caution should be taken.
I am asking you, Sir, to implement the Rules as they should be. This has to do with the Adjustments Appropriation Bill, and questions should be related to it, and answers should be related to it. There is no need for any long discussions on other matters.
Correct, hon Ellis. I said cautionary measures should be taken by members when they ask questions. Can we allow that then to begin to improve in the House. Hon members, I think I will make that appeal. However, Minister, you are on the floor - continue.
Sihlalo, into embi ukuthi laba bantu bafuna ukuthi kuphendulwe imibuzo yabo kuphela, eyabanye ingaphendulwa. [Chairperson, the sad thing is that these people want me to respond only to their questions, and not to other people's questions.]
When it is their questions, relevant or irrelevant, they never stand up and say, "that question is irrelevant". When an hon member from this side has asked the question and I am trying to answer ...
Mr Chairman, on a point of order: The hon Minister is standing up now and accusing us of things that we actually don't do. We are saying that we are asking questions on the Adjustments Appropriation Bill, and the Minister has no right to stand up and say that we don't.
I get your point. But she never referred to anybody; she was just generalising. So can we just allow the Minister to finish? [Interjections.]
Should I continue? How much time do I have?
Ministers have unlimited time, in terms of the Rules. [Interjections.] So can we just leave it? The more you interject, the more you give them time yourselves. So just leave the Minister to proceed. These are your Rules.
Thank you, hon Chair. Maybe the hon members must understand what our mandate is. If we talk about improvement, everything I have talked about is within the mandate of the Department of Home Affairs, and is within the turnaround strategy. I have not moved away from the question.
Secondly, I would like to say, since the hon Oriani-Ambrosini was talking about the microchip, we now have state-of-the-art passports, which you get in a very short time. I don't know whether any of you have applied for a passport recently. The state-of-the-art passport has a microchip, hon Oriani-Ambrosini, and it has been turned around. Also, if you have lost your ID, you can get a temporary ID on the spot. We can scan your finger, and we can verify that you are on our population register, and we can give you an ID.
Hon members, let me also take this opportunity to say that we have started, and are going to accelerate, the registration of children at birth. I hope hon members, during the recess, that you will take the opportunity to encourage their constituents to register their children. We also want everybody who doesn't have a birth certificate to have it within a year. So in your constituencies, hon members, make sure there is no single person who doesn't have a birth registration certificate. [Interjections.] At the end of one year, we are going to do away with late registration. So they must do it now.
Also, all people in your constituency must have an ID, because, as politicians here, we are going to do away with the ID campaign during elections ... [Interjections.]
Hon members, you are being out of order. That is not parliamentary. You cannot disrupt the House by clapping your hands, and you know that is completely out of order. The Minister is responding to a question that was raised, so can we just allow her to complete the response.
Mr Chairman, again on a point of order: Sir, it is the same point of order.
Mr Ellis, I think you misunderstood me. I did not say "do not"; I said "caution should be exercised". And "do not" and "caution should be exercised" are two different things. I just said that "caution should be exercised" that we are discussing adjustments. [Interjections.]
Mr Chairman, I want to question your ruling.
So on the cautioning, I appealed to members, but I did not say to members "do not". I said "caution should be exercised" that we are dealing with the adjustments. So the IFP did engage on an issue, and I allowed it. The ANC has engaged on the issue, and I am allowing them, so I am being balanced in the probabilities.
On a point of order, Mr Chairman: I am questioning your ruling. I am saying, Sir, that I believe that you are wrong. You should not allow those questions that are not related to the Adjustments Appropriation Bill to be put, and neither should Ministers be allowed to respond to them. I am saying, Sir, that you should be directing this meeting according to the Adjustments Appropriation Bill, and nothing else.
Thank you, hon Ellis. Hon Ellis, I didn't say people "should not", and I am repeating that. I said "caution should be taken" that we don't go all out. As much as possible, we should confine ourselves to the matter where possible. And members will use their judgment. Hon Minister?
In conclusion, hon Chair ... [Interjections.]
Order, hon members!
In conclusion, I want to caution all of us here: There will be no ID campaign in 2011 during elections. It will not happen. The ID campaign is now. In 2011 nobody is going to put Home Affairs in a pressure cooker for an ID campaign. Thank you. [Applause.]
Hon members, can we really proceed with that caution that I have requested, to ask questions that are more relevant to the adjustments? Secondly, I know that this is not the first time that we are dealing with questions to the Ministers, but I know that in the past the ANC has not participated. Now I think the ANC has decided to participate. Let us just allow that procedure to take place and really respect the running of the House and the Chair. I think the issue of slow- clapping was really out of order.
Chairperson, in the light of the explanation by the Minister, I wonder what a bank does when a teller says, "I fail to reconcile my account?" Does the bank keep the teller or fire the teller? What do they do?
Baqalile ke, uma sengibaphendula bazosokola. [Here they go again, and they will cry foul when I respond.] Hon members, obviously when somebody doesn't do their job, there are procedures. You give them a first warning, and if they don't perform, eventually, you fire them. That is standard procedure. I am sure in the DA, if people don't perform and you don't win elections, they must fire the person who is supposed to do the work. But, yes, clearly, we are going to fire people who don't do the work, but we train them. As I said in my first response, we are training them. Because it doesn't help to just fire somebody when you have not trained them. Give them an opportunity, train them, and if, after training, they don't perform, it means they are not willing to do so. It is not because they do not know. So the first step is training. Then after that, we make sure that they perform. Thank you.
Sihlalo, Ngqongqoshe ukhuluma into enkulu uma uthi abantwana abazelwe ababhaliselwe izitifiketi zokuzalwa, kuthi abantu abangenabo omazisi bababhalise manje.
La ngakhulela khona eBonjini eSoweto, lapho abantu abazalelwa khona kungekho ngisho umtholampilo noma isibhedlela - umuntu angabi nasicucu nje esithi wazalelwa lapho.
Ngabe uMnyango kaNgqongqoshe uzokwenza kubelula yini ukuthi abantu bakwazi ukuthola usizo, kuthi nongakaze asonte kungashiwo ukuthi aye kumfundisi ngoba akamazi umfundisi? Ngabe uMnyango wakho uzokwazi yini ukwenza kube lula ukuthi abantu bakwazi ukubhalisa basizakale, njengokuthi amaLungu ePhalamende, amakhosi, noma amakhansela, akwazi ukusiza abantu ngokuthi babhaliseke? Ngoba inkinga ukuthi kunabantu abazalelwe ezindaweni ezisemakhaya ezingenayo imitholampilo noma izibhedlela. Ngalokho-ke kungabibikho sicucu sokuthi wazalwa, kodwa bube bukhona ubufakazi bokuzalwa, ukuthi ubani uzalwa umabani nobani. Ngiyathokoza. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Mr B W DHLAMINI: Chairperson and hon Minister, what you told us here is very good when you said that newborns should receive birth certificates and that people who do not have IDs should register now to receive them.
In some places like Bonjini, Soweto, a place where I grew up, people give birth to children without the necessary facilities like clinics or hospitals, and people do not have any form of identification as proof of having been born in those places.
Could your department make it easier for people to receive assistance, and that even someone who has never belonged to any church should not be referred to a minister of religion of some church as they do not have any? Could your department make it easier for people to be registered and can Members of Parliament, amakhosi, or councillors assist in getting them registered? I am saying this because there are people who were born in places where there are no clinics or hospitals. Therefore, they have no proof of existence whilst there is testimony of having been born, that so and so was born to Mrs and Mr so and so. Thank you.]
I will cautiously make a follow-up, Chair.
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZASEKHAYA: Ngiyabonga Lungu eliHloniphekileyo. Yebo, empeleni sesiqalile ukukwenza lokho. Senze amahhovisi angomahamba nendlwana. Siqale eSisonke naseLusikisiki. Uma ngabe umuntu efika engenasicucu simthumela emakomidini esiwakhile esisebenza nawo kulaba bomahamba nendlwana, ukuzama ukusheshisa. Lawa makomidi akhiwe ngabantu abahloniphekile abakhona emphakathini. Ngizokwenzela isibonelo nje, elinye ikomidi linabantu ababengothishanhloko asebethatha umhlalaphansi, abafundisi, kanye nabanye abantu abanesikhathi asebathatha umhlalaphansi, ngoba sifuna ukuthi lo mkhankaso usheshe.
Uma siphuma ngalaba omahamba nendlwana, nekomidi liba khona. Esikhundleni sokuthi uma ubhalisa kuthiwe hamba uyolanda lokhu, nalokhuya, uyaye uhlolwe ubuzwe imibuzo khona lapho, kuze kuthathwe isinqumo khona lapho ngoba abantu bomphakathi bayabazi abantu bakhona. Bayakwazi nokusheshe bambone nomuntu othi engowakaSithole kodwa uma bethi kuye: o! unjani Jobe, kodwa yena athi: hhayi! Jobe mina-Sithole. [Uhleko.] Bayaye basheshe bakwazi ukuthi hhayi lona nokho...Ngaleyo ndlela, yinto vele ebesesiyiqalile. Sizoyiqhuba kuzo zonke izindawo, kodwa besisazama ukuthi sibone ukuthi yiziphi izinkinga esizohlangabezana nazo uma siyenza kanje. Kodwa sizokwenza kube lula. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you hon member. Yes, as a matter of fact, we have started doing that. We have come up with the idea of setting up mobile offices. We have launched such offices in Sisonke and Lusikisiki.
When an individual comes without a piece of identification, we refer him or her to the committees that we have established to work together with these mobile offices. These committees are made up of respectable members of communities. Let me make an example: One committee is made up of retired principals, retired ministers of religion and other available retired people, because we want to expedite this campaign.
When we go on site with these mobile offices, committees come with us. When registering, instead of being sent from pillar to post, you are usually assessed by being asked questions on the spot, and a decision is also taken on the spot, because members of the communities know people from their own areas. They are also able to quickly see an individual who happens to be a Sithole, but when greeted by his clan name, by saying: oh! Jobe, how are you? He or she responds in broken isiZulu by saying: No! I am not Jobe, but Sithole. [Laughter.] They are quick to know that no, this one ... This is what we have already started. And we are going to take this to other areas as we were just putting this on trial to see what kind of problems we were going to encounter if we did it this way. But we are going to make it easy. Thank you.]
Thank you, hon Minister.
Vote No 5 - Public Works - put.
Chairperson, your department hon Minister has been allocated R150 million for buying houses and offices for the additional new Ministers and Deputy Ministers. Can the Minister tell us how many houses and offices he is going to buy and what price range is that the Minister is looking at, especially the houses?
Chairperson, when you go home at night, hon Masango, you go home to a beautifully renovated house in Acacia Park, nice and comfortable, fully refurbished. Public Works spent hundreds of millions of rand on Acacia Park. Some of the people on this side of the House don't have a house to go to tonight and they have to go to a hotel.
So, let's get our priorities right. The mandate of Public Works is to do exactly that ... [Interjections.] ... to provide official residences for Ministers and Deputy Ministers, like it does for Members of Parliament, so I don't see what the big fuss is. Nobody asked us how much we spent when our houses were renovated in Acacia Park. Maybe that would be the question we should ask against the hundreds of millions we spent on the three parks, so that we don't distort this issue.
Now, to get back to your question, we are in line with the requirements of the extended Cabinet and we will provide the necessary residences and offices. And we will be accountable to Parliament in the usual manner. Thank you. [Applause.]
Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, R150 million is allocated for offices and residences for the new Ministers. Does this also allow for spending on luxuries, decorations and expensive hotel accommodation for Ministers? In the same vein, Minister, I wanted to comment on the R114,5 million allocated to the Community Works Programme, whilst the Ministers are getting R150 million.
Chairperson, the answer to the first part of the hon member's question is no, the R114,5 million are funds that have been transferred to the Independent Development Trust, IDT, the Community Works Programme and the nonwage portion of the Expanded Public Works Programme.
These figures are available, hon Mnguni, and you know that these presentations were made yesterday in the committee. This is what was announced by the Minister of Finance in the Budget and the Adjustments Estimates actually make it happen. So, if you had listened carefully to the Budget and gone back to read the Minister of Finance's Budget Speech, you would have seen that these figures were there. This is the mechanism to bring the money where it belongs. I thank you.
Vote No 6 - Government Communication and Information System - put.
Vote No 7 - National Treasury - put.
Vote No 8 - Public Administration Leadership and Management Academy - put.
Vote No 9 - Public Service and Administration - put.
Vote No 10 - Public Service Commission - put.
Vote No 11 - Statistics South Africa - put.
Vote No 12 - Arts and Culture - put.
Vote No 13 - Education - put.
Chairperson, for the realisation of quality education in our schools we need to recommit ourselves to quality teaching in our classrooms. Mr Minister, how does the high salary increases translate to improvement in education delivery and, more specifically, in the productivity of teachers in their classrooms?
Chairperson, thank you hon member. I fully agree with you that to get quality education indeed we are reliant on good teachers. For us it is very important to make sure that our teachers are rewarded accordingly, their contributions are recognised, and their conditions of services, which include their salaries, are in order.
The truth of the matter is that, if one looks at the teachers' salaries, including the increment one can see that up to now it is still not where it should be. In terms of the wellbeing of our teachers, we are currently in a bad situation where our teachers cannot even afford a decent house. So, it is important for us that on an ongoing basis we make sure that teachers are given decent salaries so that their living conditions could reflect that of the important profession they fulfil.
We agreed, and I think you also agree with me, that we have to endeavour at all costs to make sure that we keep on improving their salaries as decent professionals as they are very critical in our society.
Chairperson, with this adjustment government is really and truly putting its money where its mouth is in the sense that education has been the priority. And improving literacy and numeracy is clearly a major priority in this regard.
Five hundred and twenty-four million rand will be going towards purchasing workbooks for primary school students. This will basically be dealing a death blow to two of the major challenges that we have as far as our education system is concerned.
The first is task on time: learning and teaching happening in the class. The second, of course, is addressing the major challenge regarding some deficiencies amongst our teachers in terms of teaching abilities, and so on. With this in mind, Minister, can you assure the House that workbooks will be on every primary school desk by the beginning of the year in 2010?
Chairperson, just directly to the question, yes, we are doing all we can to make sure that come the beginning of the year we will have workbooks given to our children. More importantly, one of the key contributory factors in education to improve quality is access to a good textbook.
If you have a good textbook, properly facilitated, you can even afford to have the poorly qualified teachers that we sometimes have. So, a resource book is very crucial and critical to education, and because of its critical nature, we are doing all we can, with my colleagues there, to make sure that come the beginning of the year 2010, the first month, we have books in front of all the learners.
We are hoping that with the money given to us we will even be able to go beyond the numbers that we thought we could reach. Because our budgets were based on sending money to provinces, but now that we are going to procure centrally, with printing centrally and distributing centrally, we have a sense that we would be able to give it to all the learners. Unlike what we had committed to before, that we would only give books to 60% of the learners, with the centralised procurement we might be able to cover all the learners in the system, including kids in Quintile 5.
Chairperson, the Minister last week reported to the House that outcomes-based education, OBE, will be phased out. Now, we have this R524 adjustment on workbooks, does that include Outcomes-Based Education, OBE, as well, or has that been phased out already?
Chairperson, I think that is a very useful question, because I think we need to clarify things once and for all around where we are going, so that we don't have comebacks. Hon members, what informs a curriculum? Let us talk about the curriculum of the country and not even use labels because this OBE has become a red herring. Each time we want to talk about curriculum people raise OBE. We are saying that a curriculum is informed by principles. The principles and values which are in your Constitution and as a country we had framed these as outcomes, these are the principles of nonracialism, nonsexism, and peace. These are the principles which were even in your initial curriculum statement that you called OBE. You can't throw away those principles as they continue to inform our curriculum.
What I said last week was that we are within that framework of outcomes or principles that we had termed as outcomes. What we are improving on is resources, reduction of work, and changing the assessment systems. It is important for us that at all times we just talk about the curriculum and not give it labels, because it is when we label that we create confusion as to whether we still have OBE or not.
What we are saying is that we are improving your assessments and resources, so that it could inform the principle. We said we are rewriting the syllabi and therefore providing textbooks has nothing to do with principles. The textbook is going to support your syllabi or the contents of your curriculum. I think it is quite useful for us to have a common understanding of what we are talking about, because we keep on having people asking us if this is OBE or not. It is neither here nor there.
We are talking about a new curriculum for the country and these workbooks are meant to support that curriculum. When I spoke about the review, I said some of the weaknesses that were picked up by that review committee were poor resources in support of the curriculum. These textbooks are meant to address that problem of resources in support of the curriculum. I never said we will not teach children the history of this country. It remains there as it was always there in the old curriculum and it is going to continue to be there so that we teach our children the history of this country.
In the past, we never stopped teaching kids how to multiply. We did it in the old curriculum and we are introducing resources to empower that exercise. The knowledge does not change - we are giving resources to the knowledge part of the curriculum. [Applause.]
Chairperson, may I ask a question? [Interjections.] Chairperson, because you have allowed the debate to move further away from the estimates, the Minister is now raising very interesting questions to which we must respond and ask further questions. Are you going to allow more time because we now have ... [Interjections.]
I am addressing the Chairperson and not the hon members ... [Interjections.]
Just continue, hon member. But, hon Mpontshane, as you are addressing me, we are not sure whether you are already asking your question or not, because this is going to eat into your time. [Interjections.]
Chairperson, seriously, I am asking you, are you going to allow us more time because ... [Interjections.]
No! There was not going to be any allowing of any time.
Vote No 14 - Health - put.
Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, many hospitals in our country are in a dismal state and the reason that they are not being refurbished is because there is no money. Could you give reasons why there was a need for a R183 million roll-over for the hospital revitalisation grant not spent in the Western Cape and Mpumalanga? Thank you.
We have noted amongst other things that the capacity to absorb the money has delayed our ability to transfer to the provinces. The Minister met the MECs recently and together we decided that we shall appoint people with the requested skills so that they are able to receive the money and engaged with the service providers so that the clearance of the funds can proceed without delay.
Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, in the National Assembly on 21 October 2009 the Minister stated that eight of the nine provinces are likely to run out of antiretrovirals, ARVs, before the end of the financial year. The allocation of R900 million towards the Antiretroviral, Programme is highly welcomed. We certainly do not want to repeat what happened in the Free State when health services were cut in a moratorium when the new ARV initiation was imposed. Many people on the programme did not receive their ARVs for nearly a month; causing treatment interruptions, possible drug resistance, and increased opportunistic infections.
During this period it is estimated that an additional 30 people died per day in the Free State and that the waiting list trebled to 15 000 people. Will the Minister give this House an assurance that the R900 million allocated, which is R300 million less than what was requested, is sufficient for all provinces to provide ARVs to all those that are currently on the programme and those on the waiting list? I thank you.
Chairperson, we requested R1,2 billion and we are grateful for the R900 million that we received. We have secured a balance of R300 million from donor funding and, therefore, the whole R2,2 billion, which was based on the careful measurement of the needs in the provinces, will be available and used to clear all backlogs and enrol all needy persons.
We estimate that this will take our coverage to 1 025 million persons, which is more than the 700 000 people that we currently have. We want to give assurance that there shall be no repeat of the problems and tragedies that we saw in the past. Thank you very much.
Chairperson, the R1 billion allocated under programme two to strategic health and the additional R30 million for emergency services for the 2010 World Cup does not qualify as unforeseeable and unavoidable expenditure. These were supposed to have been accommodated in the main Budget. Can the Deputy Minister explain why these were not accommodated in the main Budget or does he agree that this is simply poor planning?
Chairperson, I thought the adjustment budget is not only about unforeseeable and unavoidable expenditure. Sometimes one does so much work that extra money is needed to do even more work. So, I want to make a plea that the hon member should read the adjustment budget in that context.
Chairperson, the bulk of the R900 million allocated for the management of HIV goes towards antiretroviral drugs, I would like to know from the Deputy Minister whether they have any plans to try and procure these antiretroviral drugs at a lower price through, for example, parallel importation. Thank you.
Chairperson, hon Minister Motsoaledi has repeatedly said, in and out of the House, that the challenge that we have now is to cover as many people needing treatment and to have sustainable supplies. He has advised that we look for the most affordable medicines and other possible supplies, meaning locally and internationally. We have not ruled out the possibility of parallel importation; we shall do so with great sensitivity to local economies and the security of jobs. Our priority is to get as much of the treatment as possible at the most affordable price so that we can sustain treatment over as long a period as possible. Thank you very much.
Vote No 15 - Labour - put.
Vote No 16 - Social Development - put.
Vote No 17 - Sport and Recreation South Africa - put.
Vote No 18 - Correctional Services - put.
Vote No 19 - Defence and Military Veterans - put.
Chairperson, we have made some very good progress in the Portfolio Committee on Defence and Military Veterans, but four combat readiness briefings have been cancelled by the Ministry of Defence. Will the Minister now commit to give the defence force the green light to brief Parliament on the combat readiness of the SA National Defence Force; because it will only then judge the effect of the Budget on Defence and Military Veterans?
Chairperson, I want to share with the House a bit of intelligence that I got via the grapevine. Apparently, there was a party for the DA yesterday, and awards were given to members of the DA. There was an award for "the most robust Member of Parliament", "the one who sleeps the most on benches", etc. Then, there was one for "guess who will not get a present from the Minister this year?". And you know who got the award? David Maynier. [Laughter.] Congratulations, hon David Maynier.
I would just like to say to the hon Maynier that upon the production by the chairperson of a resolution from the portfolio committee requesting that this briefing be given, with the conditions as laid out in our laws, I will certainly oblige. I have not received any request from the portfolio committee based on any resolution taken by the portfolio committee; so I have no idea what hon David Maynier is talking about. Thank you.
Vote No 20 - Independent Complaints Directorate - put.
Vote No 21 - Justice and Constitutional Development - put.
Vote No 22 - Police - put.
Chairperson, I am extremely disappointed in the current governing party, that neither the Minister of Police nor his Deputy has seen fit to be here this evening. Perhaps ... [Interjections.]
The Minister of State Security will answer the question.
Is he going to answer on behalf of the Minister of Police? That's alright. The head of the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation, DPCI, was appointed on 21 May 2009. Today, nearly six months later, we have seen that they have transferred the money from the Scorpions to the Hawks.
Could whichever Minister explain if this is merely officialising the agreed transfer and that the money has already been utilised in establishing the Hawks or not? Either way, could he explain to this House why it seems as if many of the ex-Scorpion members who have moved to the Hawks have suffered large pay cuts against all labour legislation and have in many instances stayed for six months with no computers, emails or printers and have been taken off the 639 cases they worked on while in the Scorpions and have instead been scattered around the country to the three existing South African Police Service, SAPS, units: organised crime, commercial crime and crime intelligence? If those units already existed, what exactly is the Hawks, except a name?
Chairperson, the funny part of it is that while the hon member was sitting here in the House, she has just released a press statement, where she claimed that she had some sources within the police. Our duty is to answer the member's question on whether the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigations, DPCI, is functioning.
Yes, it has been established and it is functioning. But some of the facts that you have just mentioned now are not correct. Firstly, there were no salary reductions for any members who came from Scorpions, as this would constitute a breach of our labour laws. This is a correct statement. In this regard, your sources were incorrect. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
Secondly, you have indicated that some of the former members of the Directorate of Special Operations, DSO, did not have computers. That is not true anymore. However, it is true that there have been some challenges in the beginning of the integration process. It was not caused by any level of inefficiency. Part of the main problem was that the lease for some of the computers coming from the DSO had expired. But the police, particularly the Hawks, moved with speed to ensure that all the members who needed to do their work had the necessary equipment. They hired the computers and we are in the process of ensuring that we are purchasing them with these adjustments. That is a fact, and I am sorry for saying that it will be more appropriate that we engage the Ministry rather than going through these uninformed information peddlers. I thank you. [Applause.]
Ngiyabonga Sihlalo. Kunemali esuswe kumnyango owenza uphenyo yahanjiswa kwingqalasizinda, ingabe leyo mali izokwenzani? Angizwa! (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[Mr V B NDLOVU: Thank you Chairperson. What will the money that was moved from the Special Investigation Unit, SIU, to the infrastructure be used for? I can't hear you!]
Hon members, I would like to hear the question. Qhubeka baba [Continue, Sir.]
Kunemali esuswe ngapha ngasekuphenyeni yahanjiswa kwingqalasizinda, manje ngibuza ukuthi laphaya lapho iye khona kwingqalasizinda iyokwenzani ngoba uphenyo yiwona msebenzi wamaphoyisa nje?
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUVIKELWA KWEZWE (Egameni likaNgqongqoshe Wezamaphoyisa): Kuyiqiniso ukuthi kukhona izimali ezazikhona kulaba ababephethe ezophenyo abangazange bakwazi ukuzisebenzisa ngonyaka odlule. Ingxenye yalezo zimali ithathiwe yafakwa lapha kwingqalasizinda. Ingxenye yaleyo mali ilinganiselwa kwizigidi ezingama-R93 zamarandi. Ilungu elihloniphekile lizokhumbula ukuthi ... (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[Mr V B NDLOVU: My question is, for what will the money that was transferred from the Special Investigation Unit, SIU, to the infrastructure be used for because investigation is the core function of the police?
(on behalf of the Minister of Police): It is true that there were some monies that were allocated to those who are in charge of the Special Investigation Unit, which they were unable to spend last year. Part of that money has been transferred to the infrastructure. That money amounted to approximately R93 million. The hon member will remember that ...]
... the Minister has announced that the cluster agreed to move, in order to implement the criminal justice review process. Most of that money will go to the improvement of our systems, particularly, fingerprinting, which is used by the police. The R93 million will be moved for a good cause. If the session has not spent the money and we have new priorities, which we as government have agreed upon, and have been put and accepted by the portfolio committee, it will be appropriate to move the money to this type of infrastructure. It is currently needed in order to ensure that we increase our capacity to deal with crime. I thank you. [Applause.]
Hon Minister, how can protection and security services get an additional R80,7 million when the amount for crime intelligence went down, just before the 2010 Fifa Soccer World Cup? Secondly, how can detective services be reduced by more than R62 million, notwithstanding the fact that the Hawks will now be incorporated into Programme 3? I thank you.
Chairperson and the hon George, I have just indicated that in as far as some of the these monies which are being moved are concerned, the only money that has been injected into the department is a small amount of about R1 billion, which is dealing with salary increases. The other money is a shift of unspent funds. Those unspent funds are not being moved to reduce the capacity within the police.
In all those units from which the money had been moved, we have ensured that there is continued capacity to do their work. The money unspent is moved to the priority areas which I have identified; as you have indicated, the establishment of the Hawks. We want to ensure that we have these systems, which you said must link with the rest of the criminal justice cluster in order to ensure a coherent approach to fighting crime. I thank you.
Vote No 23 - Agriculture - put.
Vote No 24 - Communications - put.
Chairperson, the SABC is a public and not a state broadcaster. The DA supports Vote No 24 on Communications. The SABC is a public broadcaster with more than 24 million listeners and viewers everyday. The people's broadcaster is the only way to be connected to the world. We have agreed that the R200 million should be paid to the SABC to keep its doors open. However, this is not nearly enough to resolve the financial crisis at the SABC. How will the balance of the shortfall be funded to ensure that the SABC remains financially viable? I thank you.
Hon Chairperson and hon member, we also agree that the SABC is a public broadcaster that needs to be supported. Hence the adjustment of R200 million in order to fund its liquidity, which will be controlled by the Department of Communications on its monthly management accounts. On a monthly basis we will check that it spends the money that has been allocated to it.
No new contracts will be allowed without the Minister's sanction, which are worth more than R1 million. We are appointing a new CEO who has 25 years' experience and an acting CEO. Currently there is no CEO. We are working with the interim board, the task team and Treasury to ensure that the money that SABC got through the adjustment is well spent. On the shortfall, the SABC is currently engaging with Treasury, trying to get a government guarantee. [Interjections.]
Minister, just ignore the comments.
The negotiations are going on in order to fund the total shortfall that the SABC is currently experiencing. I thank you. [Applause.]
Chairperson, I have a question for the Minister. On the one hand we are giving a R200 million bail-out to the SABC to help them overcome the serious financial problems that they are facing. On the other hand, provision is made in the adjustment appropriation for a R4,4 million restraint of trade for the former group CEO. Can the Minister really and morally justify that? I thank you.
Chairperson and hon member, firstly, let me start by indicating that the negotiations between the former CEO and the board were done without the Minister's involvement, but with his support. When the interim SABC board came into office, we specifically requested that it should begin the stabilisation of the SABC by, among other things, beginning to address the question of a CEO, who has been in office there, and who was in dispute with the old board, but being a defector without him doing any work.
The board had the blessing of the Department of Communications to ensure that they should settle with the group CEO as soon as possible. Justification for that was the fact that the SABC had been in limbo for months. Even now, if the interim board had not undertaken these steps and had not settled in the way it did, that situation would still exist.
We think that the board should be commended for taking the steps that it took in order to, in the first place, consider the stability of the SABC. Everybody here has praise for the steps that the SABC's interim committee has generally undertaken, ever since its establishment, not long ago. I think it has done well. I thank you.
Vote No 25 - Environmental Affairs and Tourism - put.
Vote No 26 - Human Settlements - put.
Vote No 27 - Rural Development and Land Reform - put.
Chairperson, as the Minister is aware, the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform had spent 100% of its current budget. Given that the adjustment is R292 million, mainly for salaries, and that the department has commitments of R3,4 billion in signed contracts with landowners, how will the department finance or honour these commitments under Programme 4: Restitution?
Hon Chair, what the hon member is saying is not correct. We have spent 100% of the Restitution budget for this financial year, but not everything. Secondly ... [Interjections.]
Order, hon members!
Secondly, hon Chair, we have requested an amount of R220 million. We have reprioritised and discussed this with Treasury. We have agreed that we can reprioritise and make some money available for clearing the signed contracts. So that is what we are going to do. It is therefore not entirely correct to say that we have spent 100% of our Budget. Thank you.
Chairperson, I am very happy to hear that there will be money made available for the land claims. I just want to ask the Minister: How long will it take to implement this new system? The hon chairperson of the portfolio committee can confirm that we have received quite a lot of enquiries about outstanding land claims. Will you settle all the old ones before you go over to the new system? Thank you.
Hon Chair, I am not sure about the new system. Maybe the hon member could explain that and then I can respond. I would like to be pointed in my response.
Yes, hon Chairperson. The hon Minister of Finance said earlier on that we cannot continue with this old system of willing-buyer, willing-seller, in terms of which government needs to pay three times the market value, and we have to look at a new system.
Fine, Chairperson, now I understand. Hon Chair, the willing-buyer, willing-seller model is government policy, as we speak. It is under review. We are going to present to this House, next year, a Green Paper for discussion. We have already developed the framework, and we are busy developing that ourselves. We want to present to government a proposal as to how we go about changing that.
Secondly, because it involves a lot of people, we are also consulting with the people who are affected by this. People have been working on the policy, and they have been planning according to that. So we can't say today that on date x this is what we are going to do, but certainly, I can imagine that hon members will participate in this Green Paper and we expect that they will assist us in finding a much fairer solution than the willing buyer, willing seller model that we have today.
Chair, hon Minister, given the failure to urgently address the issue of land redistribution and restitution, which is a potential time bomb, and given the sensitivity and importance of land redistribution in this country for the stability of the country, can the hon Minister explain the decrease in the allocation of funds to land reform grants under Programme 5, and the impact thereof on land restitution goals?
Thank you, hon Chair. I imagine that the hon member is referring to Subprogramme 5.05. We are faced with a challenge in rural development. The challenge that hon members keep raising, as the hon Swathe and the hon De Lille have done now, is indeed a challenge. Now, we have had to reprioritise. I think that is really what I have been referring to. We have had to reprioritise, in order for us to be able to clear the desk.
The challenge is this: Once you have signed the settlement agreement, what will happen is, if you don't pay, the costs will escalate, because you will have to pay interest. A complicating factor is that some people have gone to court. The department has been taken to court. As we speak, there are cases that are before the court. There are two types of cases. In one the matter might be settled in court today and we might be called on to pay today - those cases amount to R377 million, as we speak. We don't have that money. The other type of case that is before the court are those where the court might say, you have agreed, settle. In other words, it is a performance issue - and these cases amount to R202 million.
Now, once the court takes a decision, we have to comply with that. We have had to position ourselves in order to be able to meet that challenge when it comes about. It is not something that we like, but it is something that we have to do, given the constraints that we are faced with right now. Thank you, hon Chair.
Chair, seeing that R250 million in the Additional Appropriation have been earmarked for the new Comprehensive Rural Development Programme of the new department, can the Minister tell us whether this money will target poverty and unemployment in the rural areas, and in what way will the Ministry be able to deal with the poverty that we are experiencing in those areas?
Hon Chair, the hon Swathe has referred to this amount of money, and has said that it would mainly go to salaries. Actually, we got R289 million, I think. Of that R289 million, R250 million will go to service delivery. That is what the hon chair of the portfolio committee is asking. I am happy that he has asked this question, so that I can explain the points further.
Now, of the R250 million that he has referred to here, R90 million will go to fencing, for ploughing and grazing land, across the country, or rather, in the nine provinces. So that is service delivery, in our view, and, in agreement with the provinces, that money will be used to create jobs. But there will also be an element of quality control, for which we have an agreement with the Ministry of Public Works, so that we can make use of the Independent Development Trust. Of course, in Mpumalanga we are using their trust. There is a trading trust in Mpumalanga, where we have already provided, between August and now, 260km of fence. In KwaZulu-Natal we are using Ithala. So we are creating jobs through that. In the Eastern Cape we are negotiating to use Asgisa EC to ensure that the quality of the fence that we are erecting is good. So this is what is going to happen all over the place in terms of that.
With regard to the remaining R160 million, we are working with Fort Hare University, which is helping us in doing other things. Amongst these other things, we want to develop an agripark, particularly in Mpumalanga, because there is plenty of water in Mpumalanga. We have discussed the possibility of getting land there with the Premier a couple of weeks ago. We will get land, actually, to create an irrigation facility, and then we can start producing vegetables there. But we also want to encourage, with that same money, food gardens, so that people can sell there. We want to create a market through the agripark, as well as a processing plant, so that we can process vegetables into vegetable soup. So we are going to create social infrastructure.
We are also intervening in health facilities. If we get to a rural area where there are no clinics, or the mobile clinics come once a week or so, or don't come as often as they should, this relates to the problem of the roads infrastructure. We are intervening there. So that money is going to go to food gardens, to roads, to fencing gardens - because this we must do - and to water.
The hon Minister for Agriculture has really done government a lot of good. Consider, for example, the refining of water in places such as Masha, where you have water constraints, not just because water is scarce, but because of the quality of the water. So the Minister has come in, but the Minister of Communications also has come in, in relation to the e-centres to follow. The Minister of Energy is coming in for electrification in all these places. So we are not working in terms of creating this infrastructure ourselves. We create opportunities for other departments to come in and do the work themselves.
The R160 million will certainly be spread a little wider than the one place, that is Masha, but across the provinces. Also, we will initiate, and the other departments will come in and complete the job, whether it concerns health facilities, or schools, or other things. We will do that in Mpumalanga, because the Department of Education may not be ready yet, but we are ready to assist there in Mpumalanga. There is one school where children from seven grades have to study in one room, and we have to intervene there.
So the money is not going to go to salaries. It is not correct to say so. Thank you. [Applause.]
Vote No 28 - Minerals and Energy - put.
Vote No 29 - Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs - put.
Chairperson, Minister with regard to this nice booklet, here, the Treasury Regulation System specifies that unforeseeable and unavoidable expenditure excludes the following two things: Firstly, spending increase due to tariff adjustments and price increases. Secondly, spending to extend existing services beyond the unforeseeable; unforeseen. Now, in your budget, there is an amount of R509 million under unforeseeable and unavoidable expenditure allocated for increase costs or to provide free basic electricity. Presumably, that's impossible because of tariff increases; and the other explanation would be, presumably, the roll-out, which is beyond expectations. It's hard to believe, since there is a service delivery crisis, which makes it difficult to believe that there has been such a heavy success. What is the R 109 million for, if it's not for those two issues? And how are our municipalities compensated for tariff increases by Eskom? Thank you.
Chairperson, it's quite interesting to hear member Smith trying to describe the situation in municipalities, as if it's a crisis. In relation to the issues that are there, for all intents and purposes, he's misinterpreting it. There is no doubt that there are challenges, but these are not crises. This is a misrepresentation of the facts; in fact, that statement is bordering on misleading the House.
Responding on the issue of what will happen to the money and how to ensure that we compensate for the increases; I think hon Smith has answered his own question, that the amount of over R500 million is aimed at ensuring that it assists the poor in relation to the forthcoming tariff increases. Therefore, it is a matter that has been taken care of.
The second matter is an issue around the increase of R900 million which is dealing with supporting the poor in relation to tariff increases. The situation, Mr Smith, in municipalities is that they are undergoing a turn- around process; there is no crisis. Don't describe it the way you do. Those are challenges that are within our power to be addressed.
I have a follow-up ...
Chairperson, hon Minister, you are asking us to vote for R288 million of roll-over funds for the infrastructure grant programme; my question is, how are you and you department going to ensure that this money is spent, not on running costs by municipalities, but on infrastructure and when, if this illegal practice, which we heard of from the Minister of Finance, occurs, will you take steps?
Chairperson, there are lot of things to consider when talking about the Municipal Infrastructure Grant, MIG; it is not an accurate answer. One of the issues is that most of these municipalities with these challenges do not have the capacity to deliver. As the department, both provincially and nationally, we are intervening to ensure that the money is well spent.
We are also exploring other measures, because in the past the department had a Municipal Infrastructure Investment Unit which was a structure aimed at ensuring that infrastructure is rolled out in municipalities as expected by the national department. The unit was abolished, but we are looking for other possibilities of reviving it. We have realised that MIG cannot be in a position to deal with the challenges prevailing in municipalities; we are therefore looking at the possibility of a special purpose vehicle which will be able to roll-out infrastructure.
We have quantified everything across the country and these issues will be taken up. As an interim measure, the department is ready to ensure that it assists municipalities with this issue and see to it that they never occur again. Thank you very much.
Vote No 30 - Public Enterprises - put.
Vote No 31 - Science and Technology - put.
Vote No 32 - Trade and Industry - put.
Vote No 33 - Transport - put.
Hon Minister, with regard to the additional R116 million payment for the transport disaster management grant for the rehabilitation of infrastructure destroyed by flooding in the Western Cape in 2008, considering that this was a natural disaster and was declared so, should this amount not be paid from the disaster fund?
Chairperson, yes the money for this disaster does come from Transport, unless there is other contingency funding elsewhere. Once there is a disaster, everybody looks at Transport. For instance, if a road is damaged or a bridge is broken during a disaster, we can reclaim whatever money is available elsewhere. As Transport, we only move in as an emergency measure. I thank you.
Hon Minister with regard to Programme 6 for an additional R144 million allocated as a transfer payment for the Gautrain Rapid Rail Link grant for inflation and foreign exchange adjustments, why were these costs not factored in to the initial contracts under condition of contract price adjustments?
In terms of the contract, if the amount was factored in or there was escalation in terms of inflation, we are liable for paying. That is what we are doing.
I am sorry, Chairperson. This is the last one. My question is with regard to the departmental revenue of R198 million from transaction fees for vehicle registrations that will be used for the maintenance of the electronic National Traffic Information System, commonly known as eNatis. Originally, this fee was paid to Treasury to offset their extra cost for the system. Why was this amount not paid to the Department of Transport instead? I thank you.
As the member is aware, we have introduced the Road Traffic Management Corporation, RTMC. In order for it to function, this amount had to be allocated so that we can be able to implement our RTMC and be able to go out on the road safety campaign properly, particularly the demerit system that we will be introducing next year. All that will depend on the proper functioning of the RTMC. [Applause.]
Vote No 34 - Water Affairs and Forestry - put.
Vote No 35 - Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries - put.
Chairperson, hon Minster, under Programme No 3, Agricultural Support Services, a provision was made for an agricultural disaster management grant of R156,9 million to provide for disaster management in all nine provinces. In the Government Gazette of 8 September 2009, a declaration of the provincial state of drought disaster in the Eastern Cape province, six district municipalities were declared as disaster areas. The assessment report estimated a damage of R1,184 billion.
This is only one of a number of drought disaster areas with a possible total damage, much higher than this figure. How does the Minister plan to assist communities who suffered losses or are in need of water with financial support, in the view of the limited budget provided in this programme, and at what timeframes? I thank you.
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson and hon member, the state cannot be an insurance policy broker for farmers. The state cannot substitute insurances for farmers. Our first prerogative is to get farmers to take out insurance policies so that they cannot be totally dependent on the state disaster management.
Where disaster does occur, it is not incumbent on the state to recoup farmers' losses. Ours is not to balance out the losses. In any business you will have losses and you must ensure that you actually make provision for them. As in the past, you cannot be totally dependent on the state to pay for all your losses, particularly when it comes to disasters.
With disaster management, we only refund farmers on production costs and infrastructure costs on farm settlement disaster management. When it comes to all farm disaster management, for example, roads and other infrastructure projects, we are dependent on the other line function departments, like the Department of Transport and the Department of Human Settlements to assist in other areas should there there be disasters.
Our intention is not for agriculture to cover the entire disaster, but only some areas. I thank you. [Applause.]
Hon Minister, yes I agree with you that there should be schemes available that must also be assisted by government. But I just want to point out that I specifically asked this question in the Eastern Cape, because it was not only farmers who were involved in the disaster areas, but even the community and poor people, who don't have water or resources to recuperate their lands and so on.
I think this is the list that government can do something about, to look after these people, because they are poor and resource poor. I thank you.
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Hon Chairperson, in my response I did not refer to any particular group. To me farmers are emerging, smaller, older, medium or commercial farmers. They are all treated equally when it comes to disaster management.
In the Eastern Cape, yes, there were six districts declared disaster areas. Agriculture does not fund anything like roads and housing. Those areas where affected in more areas than only agriculture. We only support agriculture-related projects. In the Eastern Cape, we disaggregated the expense and are convinced that what we are going to refund to those communities, which are agriculture-related, will be within our budget. I thank you. [Applause.]
Hon M N Magazi. I thought maybe you had pressed the button. Please don't play with the buttons then. Stay away from them. I thank you. [Interjections.] It is on the screen, so I am not just accusing you.
Vote No 43 - Water Affairs - put.
Discussion on Votes and Schedule concluded.
Vote No 1 - Presidency - agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Congress of the People dissenting).
Vote No 2 - Parliament - agreed to.
Vote No 3 - International Relations and Co-operation - agreed to.
Vote No 4 - Home Affairs - agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).
Vote No 5 - Public Works - agreed to.
Vote No 6 - Government Communication and Information System - agreed to.
Vote No 7 - National Treasury - agreed to.
Vote No 8 - Public Administration Leadership and Management Academy - agreed to.
Vote No 9 - Public Service and Administration - agreed to.
Vote No 10 - Public Service Commission - agreed to.
Vote No 11 - Statistics South Africa - agreed to.
Vote No 12 - Arts and Culture - agreed to.
Vote No 13 - Education - agreed to.
Vote No 14 - Health - agreed to (Congress of the People dissenting).
Vote No 15 - Labour - agreed to.
Vote No 16 - Social Development - agreed to.
Vote No 17 - Sport and Recreation South Africa - agreed to.
Vote No 18 - Correctional Services - agreed to.
Vote No 19 - Defence and Military Veterans - agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).
Vote No 20 - Independent Complaints Directorate - agreed to.
Vote No 21 - Justice and Constitutional Development - agreed to.
Vote No 22 - Police - agreed to (Congress of the People dissenting).
Vote No 23 - Agriculture - agreed to.
Vote No 24 - Communications - agreed to.
Vote No 25 - Environmental Affairs and Tourism - agreed to.
Vote No 26 - Human Settlements - agreed to.
Vote No 27 - Rural Development and Land Reform - agreed to (Congress of the People dissenting).
Vote No 28 - Minerals and Energy - agreed to.
Vote No 29 - Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs - agreed to.
Vote No 30 - Public Enterprises - agreed to.
Vote No 31 - Science and Technology - agreed to.
Vote No 32 - Trade and Industry - agreed to.
Vote No 33 - Transport - agreed to.
Vote No 34 - Water Affairs and Forestry - agreed to.
Vote No 35 - Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries - agreed to.
Vote No 43 - Water Affairs - agreed to.
Schedule agreed to.