Malibongwe! [Praise!] Hon Deputy Chairperson, I would like to welcome back members after a wonderful break that we had, which coincided with the successful hosting of the 2010 Soccer World Cup. Having experienced the success of this tournament, to which all South Africans contributed, I am sure we are all proud of what our country can do.
I am not too sure how many people went to the stadia.
I'm one of them.
Hon member, are you one of them? Are you telling me that the rest of you did not buy tickets to watch matches at the stadia? Oh! Only three people went to the stadia? You have missed a lot, I am telling you. You were sitting in front of televisions? Okay.
From 23 to 26 March 2010, as you all know, we visited the Greater Sekhukhune District Municipality as part of the "Taking Parliament to the People" programme. As you are all aware, this programme assists us to promote public participation in line with the constitutional injunction of providing a national forum for public consideration of issues affecting provinces.
The important element of this programme, hon members, is that it provides an opportunity for different spheres of government to act together. It also epitomises co-operative government, whereby the three spheres of our government co-operate with one another in bringing service delivery to our own people.
It is important, however, to ensure that this co-operation becomes a daily practice. Our biggest challenge is to ensure that while our government is constituted as three spheres, it must also, at all times, work together as one. Now, I want to emphasise this point. We will be having a debate on 26 August in this very House, and you would remember that we called that debate. I once more want to emphasise that I was in the Free State yesterday and we debated this issue with the local government sphere. We emphasised and asked all three spheres of government - national, provincial and local government - to co-operate to avoid frustrating service delivery on the ground.
Working together within the three spheres of government will assist us to speed up service delivery because one hand will know what the other hand is doing. It does not matter in which field we co-operate - whether it is the financial field or working together to provide services - let us try to co- operate. From this year and onwards, we need to work on that and make sure that we are successful in bringing co-operative government together. This, of course, depends on the collaboration of the public representatives and administrators who are located in these different spheres and how they interrelate.
All of us, for example, in the legislative sector, have now created the Speakers' Forum level and the legislative level to say that we have formed a sector. We are no longer just calling ourselves a Parliament or provincial legislatures; we are a sector of legislators that can sit down and discuss things which affect us and be able to address them on the ground together and co-operate with each other. Through this programme, we have an opportunity to educate our people about the work of Parliament, and we also conduct hearings under the site visits in order to check the quality of the work that is done there.
As you know, this programme also brings together poor communities with a view to facilitating and uplifting in order to realise a better quality of life. This has also been the approach in the programme since its inception. We do not want to leave the seats of Parliament only to go and meet people who could easily interact with Parliament. We want to go to those people who do not have resources so that we afford them the opportunity to come to talk to us in Parliament.
In this regard, our choice of the Greater Sekhukhune District Municipality was informed by the fact that 97% of the people in the district live in rural areas. Poor service delivery in that area was confirmed by the recent report of the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs on the delivery of basic services. The report shows that the level of delivery of basic services in that province is at 15%. You can imagine; that's what the report says!
That's where we have got to concentrate our efforts. That's where our efforts have to be, all of us as public representatives, and we must make sure that we assist those structures that deliver services. You and I don't deliver services because we don't have the money. But you and I give or allocate the money to government to deliver services. That's why we've got to come back and account for the money used.
The workshop which was held on 10 August 2010 - and I'm happy the provinces were there - painted the picture on how the provinces spend their monies and how their municipalities are actually co-operating with the Auditor- General on money expenditure. Another workshop will be held in October to look at the expenditure trends in all the provinces so that we give you information that you can basically use on the ground to deal with those issues.
This is a true reflection of the effect of the pre-1994 policies and laws that we have passed to assist those small communities on the ground. Unfortunately, reversing such a negative legacy will take longer than we would like. But we have to move with speed to do that.
Members will be aware that the visit to Limpopo, under the NCOP "Taking Parliament to the People" programme, was the first since we assessed the impact of this programme and strengthened it. Evidence of this is that we started engaging with service delivery challenges in the area long before our visit in March. This gave us an opportunity to engage the executive in the period leading up to the visit.
The results of this were that some interventions were made even before our visit. We want to strengthen the programme by improving on this approach because we see that it has the potential to instil confidence in the people that indeed we are taking the issues they are raising very seriously.
During the visit, as you know, people raised a number of issues, which are captured in detail in the report that we are considering today. These issues, to mention just a few, include the backlogs in service delivery, the difficulty for local communities in accessing jobs, the shortage of water and lack of sanitation, backlogs in the land claims, poor road conditions, etc.
As you will recall, I committed myself to returning to the province in May to meet the leadership there to put up the small plan so that when you go there as committees, you will have a plan that you can follow; not just at the national level, but also at the council and provincial levels. We've not yet held that meeting because of the commitment of the leadership in the province. However, we have all agreed that early next month we will be in a position to put up that plan so that we can all work together and make sure that service delivery takes place as we want.
I am happy to inform you that, actually, the work has been started in that area of Sekhukhuneland. Since we left there, there is what we call the true reflection of our work that follows after we have left. For example, the construction of the Sekhukhune one-stop development centres in Schoonoord, Mphanama, Saaiplaas and Mohlaletsi have already commenced.
Addressing the issue of houses that are of poor quality has also commenced in that area. There is 90% progress in the construction of the Madibeng dairy. What I have done in the meantime is to send officials to go and check some of the projects that we visited. There is also progress with regard to road construction and maintenance, and some of the mines have already started with the social investment initiatives they had promised.
Inevitably, there are still many challenges that are facing the province and the district as regards attending to the needs of the people. This requires that we work together and see how, as this House, we can assist by facilitating the resolution of all service delivery challenges.
I am happy that a delegation led by the House Chairperson for Committees and Oversight, hon Tau, with counterparts from the province and district and everybody including the local municipalities, is planning to visit the area soon. The plan is already there and it will take place very soon, and they will report on some of the things when they come back. This will help us to bolster our follow-up mechanism that we agreed on in this House.
Oversight does not only entail identifying problematic areas, it also entails making the process of delivering services by government easier. I have noticed on many occasions that by merely providing space for the three spheres of government to come together to raise issues and find solutions, we succeed in facilitating the unlocking of service delivery bottlenecks.
Further, the Constitution states in section 154(1) that the national and provincial governments, by legislative and other measures, must support and strengthen the capacity of municipalities to manage their own affairs, to execute their powers and to perform their functions.
Now, that's where all of you, together with me, play a vital role in making sure that these other two spheres assist the third sphere of government with respect to service delivery. For that reason, the NCOP has the responsibility to ensure that the local government sphere is supported. It is within this context that we would like to work with the different spheres to facilitate co-operation in the manner in which government responds to the needs of our people.
Where is Mr Mokgobi? Thank you that you are here. The reason why I touched on Maluti-a-Phofung in Qwaqwa maabane [yesterday] is that that municipality is also under section 139 as I speak. We are not going to leave the committee to do the work alone.
From the senior level, where I am, a delegation will also assist you to go and sit down with the senior politicians there and discuss the issues and find out what has been done about the issues mentioned under section 139 interventions. I had a very wonderful discussion with the senior politicians there and they have already put plans in place. We are going to monitor those plans and make sure that they come out of section 139 very quickly. By the way, I am very impressed by the work that you are doing in terms of the municipalities. Wherever I go, people tell me about the work that you are doing and I hope you can continue doing that. [Applause.]
In presenting the report of the NCOP's visit to Limpopo for a debate, I must thank all members who participated in the programme. At times, conditions were not easy for you, particularly in Sekhukhuneland. For some of you it was your first time to climb those mountains, deal with bad roads and all those things. But I am happy that you have seen that the people who elected you to come here live in such conditions. I hope you will represent them and raise their voice all the time when we are in these Houses. I will repeat again that the conditions were not easy, but these are the conditions that our people are facing every day, which, unfortunately, we have to improve. That is our job to do.
We will always welcome inputs from you, hon members, on how we can make sure that the programme continues to improve on a day-to-day basis so that our people can benefit from this programme. I thank you very much. I present the report to you. [Applause.]
Sihlalo ngiyathemba ukuthi nami uzongipha isikhathi esingaphezu kwaleso esibekwe ngokomthetho. [Chairperson, I hope you will also give me more time than is applicable by law.]
Madam Deputy Chairperson, "Taking Parliament to the People" during March 2010 was an event where there was nothing to celebrate. Nothing enabled us to say what wonderful progress we have made to undo the injustices of apartheid. If anything, our people in Limpopo suffer more from poverty and are more disadvantaged today than ever before. The report which is before us today is an indictment on the failure of government on service delivery over the past 16 years. Throughout the report, I recorded the failures of all spheres of government in the Greater Sekhukhune District Municipality.
People were literally in tears as they told Parliament about the lack of basic services; corruption; maladministration; pipes with no water, years after they were installed; schools with no roofs; schools with very few teachers; schools with underqualified or unqualified teachers; schools with 452 learners who share 250 desks; schools with ablution blocks built years before but never finished; hundreds of hectares of valuable arable and developed land lying idle because of community disputes and dismal support from state departments; a lack of clinics; and traditional leaders who only look after their own interests.
The unemployment rate in that district is a staggering 69,4%, yet the ANC has still not implemented the wage subsidy for school-leavers, which the Minister of Finance announced some six months ago. This community is desperate to benefit from this policy that the DA has championed for many years. However, the ANC is held to ransom by its partner, Cosatu. [Interjections.]
During the Limpopo Parliament, the various government speakers rolled out the usual platitudes and promises. The people present saw through this, and, indeed, they gave little or no applause for the repeated promises from government speakers. Contrast this very reserved response to government speakers - including the Deputy President - with the roars of applause given to hon Harris and hon Bloem when they addressed the House. [Interjections.]
There is clearly a groundswell of support for an alternative government that will meet the needs of our desperate people. While the Limpopo government arrogantly ignores its citizens, it certainly knows how to treat MPs well. The ANC regime in Limpopo shows the signs of a shell state with the arrogant trappings of a government, like titles, blue lights and lavish dinners, but without service delivery. [Interjections.]
Despite the passage of four months since we took Parliament to Limpopo, the hon Chair informs us that the meeting scheduled for May has still not happened. I have little doubt that there has been little or no firm delivery on the promises made.
The DA supports the principles and directives of the Constitution, which dictates that Parliament must go to the people. However, we certainly do not support it as a smokescreen to bluff our people. You cannot promise people attention to their service delivery needs if you do not record those needs properly in detail, as well as ensure that they are followed up properly.
The proposed return visit is simply not enough. What is required is a real commitment from all spheres of government and officials to deal swiftly and thoroughly with the problems identified and the promises made. If the promises made are unachievable, then the people must be told this. It is irresponsible and dishonest to make promises which are patently unachievable.
The ANC cannot divert attention from the cries of the people by playing the apartheid card yet again. For the sake of our people, the ANC must accept responsibility for the service delivery failure and for the enrichment of well-based ANC cadres and cronies. The ANC should be asking for forgiveness rather than trying to muzzle its opponents and the press with apartheid- type censorship laws. As the writer in yesterday's Business Day wrote: "Ordinary people can see and smell the failures of the postapartheid state."
The people have clearly lost hope in the ANC government and are ready to place their hopes in the hands of an alternative government - a government which is committed to service delivery, even where the ANC has failed; a DA- led government to create an open-opportunity society for all the people. I thank you. [Applause.]
Hon Deputy Chair, one thing about the ANC is that it is not so desperate that it would take a dying party to come and join it. [Interjections.] I just want to say to the hon Lees that we can see the desperation that you are daydreaming. I don't think the ANC wants to wake you from your daydream. Hon Watson was daydreaming as well.
Mining is one of the leading South African industries in sustaining communities. The mining houses are as dependant on the communities as the communities are on them. They understand that growth can only be maintained by uplifting and empowering the communities that support them. These issues must pave the way towards long-term sustainability and success of the communities and mining houses.
Historically, mining houses have always been important contributors to the country's gross domestic product, GDP, and growth in the communities that they serve by providing employment and, very often, roads and schools. They are supposed to do all of this and more to make a sustainable impact on the future of these communities and South Africa as a whole, reaching far beyond the world of mining and its direct employees.
While it has become a South African franchise for adversarial groupings to find common ground for mutual benefit, this has been one of the initiatives of the NCOP during "Taking Parliament to the People". The programme was aimed at ensuring that our people benefit from our national wealth and resources.
On the said programme and the prior visits that we have undertaken, we heard the cries of the communities with regard to the mining houses not fulfilling their obligations which they have set out in their mineral rights applications and with regard to the social and labour responsibilities towards the communities.
Recently, a joint declaration between the ANC-led South African government - hon Lees - labour unions big and small mining businesses has clinched a historic 13-commitment accord to grow and transform South Africa's still well-endowed mining industry. This is a joint mining declaration which the Minister of Mineral Resources observes as a very important first step in the right direction.
A few of the commitments which I want to mention are sustainable development; acknowledging the importance of balancing economic benefits with social and environmental concerns without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their needs; supporting local beneficiation in order to unlock the intrinsic value of South Africa's minerals - that is what the ANC government does, hon Lees - considering the establishment of the national beneficiation agency to drive downstream, upstream and side- stream beneficiation, as well as all industries associated with mining; and enlisting the support of strategic international partners to facilitate skills and technology transfer for the benefit of local beneficiation.
Recognising that mining communities form an integral part of mining development, the parties have committed to developing guidelines and adhering to community consultation processes, developing a partnership approach towards mine community development and considering the establishment of regional social development funds for effective implementation of social and labour plans. You see, hon Lees, the ANC listens and acts, not like the DA, which doesn't have any alternative for that.
During our site visits, we witnessed that mine communities include both the surrounding mine host communities and major labour-sending areas, and that mining operations are in most cases located in remote areas often with less than salubrious facilities for the workforce. Realising that equity ownership provides an effective means of incorporating historically disadvantaged South Africans into the mainstream economy, ownership can afford historically disadvantaged South Africans an opportunity to influence the direction of the mining business in their area.
The Select Committee on Economic Development will vigorously embark on assisting the communities, as part of our oversight, in monitoring the mining houses' commitments to reach a minimum target of 26% ownership by 2014 to enable meaningful economic participation of historically disadvantaged South Africans, which includes black economic empowerment, BEE, transactions being concluded with clearly identifiable beneficiaries in the form of BEE entrepreneurs - hon Watson - workers and communities; ensuring that some of the cash flow accrues to the BEE partner throughout the term of the investment, barring any unfavourable market conditions; ensuring that BEEs have full shareholder rights such as being entitled to full participation at annual general meetings and exercising of voting rights; and ensuring ownership vesting within the agreed timeframes of the BEE structure, taking into account the prevailing market conditions.
In conclusion, South Africa is a land endowed with incredible possibilities, and through the collaborative efforts of all relevant stakeholders, it is contended that much more can be done for our communities. I thank you.
Deputy Chair, on a point of order: It is a little late, Madam. I was making a point of order on the speech that hon Adams was delivering. It had everything to do with the Department of Mineral Resources and nothing to do with "Taking Parliament to the People". I suggest that it be scratched from the record. [Laughter.]
Chairperson, I don't want us to be confused. I am referring to those of us who were never part of the triple-N or the National Party, when they fight about their own things and then bring them to this august House. [Laughter.]
Cope appreciated the warm welcome by the community of greater Sekhukhuneland despite poor and nondelivery of services. Cope agrees with the analysis reflected in the Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, ATCs. If one looks at both education and health issues, there is nothing to indicate that these are the two priorities of the government of the day. Here one talks of insufficient clinics; a shortage of doctors and medicine; poor or no school infrastructure; education officials who do not support schools that require support; low or totally no morale among teachers; and no co-operation from parents.
Furthermore, we fully agree that the fraud and corruption that is mentioned in the ATCs is endemic in that province. Hence we found poor-quality infrastructure and many projects left unfinished, some not done, while the contractors responsible were paid in full. One wonders what informs this push for the nationalisation of mines only in that particular province. Is it not informed or driven by personal interests?
Furthermore, the amount of money that Parliament committed to that particular programme demands that the NCOP should go back to Limpopo. I fully support the hon Chairperson of this House when he said that we should go back to Limpopo, to the same sites we visited before, for a follow-up programme. [Interjections.]
In conclusion, Cope is warning the government of the day. I always insist on referring to "the government of the day" as it should be borne in mind that this government won't be here forever. It is the government of the day.
Let us tell you, the electorate is always sober and watching with interest. [Interjections.] So, they should not be taken for granted. If you consider the massive walkout on that day, 26 March 2010, it was a clear indication that people are tired of empty promises and should no longer be taken for granted. You said people were hungry when, in fact, they were tired of hearing promise after promise. So they decided to walk out and leave you. [Interjections.] The only person in that big tent who made sense to the people of that district was hon Bloem. That's why he had a standing ovation, after which people felt that all was said and done. I thank you.
Hon House Chairperson, I firstly would want to remind members of Cope that when this House arrived in Sekhukhune, the people stood to welcome members of the ANC. Secondly, in Limpopo, the majority has always voted for the ANC. Thirdly, you should also remember that the people of Limpopo have been engaged in the struggle for the liberation of South Africa.
Fourthly, I also want to remind members of Cope that there is no endemic fraud and corruption in Limpopo as they do not have any evidence thereof. The only time we learned about fraud and corruption was when the constituency money of this particular Parliament was taken to newspapers by the leadership of Cope. Even today they are still fighting over that.
We must indicate to the DA that the tears they were crying are crocodile tears in the sense that we are very much aware that we have been put under oppression for decades by the same people who are now today pretending to be divine people.
On the question of land, we are saying that we have been subjected to 13% landownership over time, and that the DA cannot talk about our chiefs and kings, as they beheaded some of our kings, including Kgosi Makhoba, King Bambatha, Sekhukhune himself ...
Hon member, there is a point of order; can you take it?
Chairperson, on a point of order: The speaker at the podium said that the DA beheaded some of their leaders. That is a fallacy and a lie, and he must withdraw it.
I am not going to withdraw, but I'm going to continue and indicate that apartheid was declared a crime against humanity by the UN, and that the DA cannot proudly come and stand today to say apartheid was a better ...
Hon member, are you confirming that you are saying the DA beheaded those people? Are you reiterating that the DA beheaded those people?
I am indicating that the apartheid regime, in which the DA participated, was part of that process.
Hon Chairperson, on a point of order: The DA was never a part of the apartheid government. I was never a part of it and, therefore, I ask ... [Interjections.]
Hon members, order! May I make a ruling on this particular matter? Of course it will be misleading to say the DA was part of the apartheid government or Parliament. The Democratic Party was part of the apartheid ... [Interjections.]
Hon members, order! The Democratic Party was part of the apartheid Parliament; therefore, hon member, will you withdraw the word "DA" and, if I may advise, instead say "the Democratic Party"?
I am withdrawing but amending that the Democratic Party was part of the process ... [Applause.] ... and that those members of the DA today were also members of the Democratic Party that participated ...
Will the speaker take a question? He is so brave ...
Hon members, the member is asking me whether the speaker is prepared to take a question. It is therefore my responsibility to confer with the speaker whether he is prepared to take a question.
Thank you, Chair.
Are you prepared to take a question, hon member?
No, I am not prepared, Chair.
The member is not prepared. Please proceed, hon member.
Thank you, Chair. It seems as if there is a very serious issue about my time. However, I must indicate that during the 1976 uprisings around Bantu education, our students were killed by the then apartheid regime. I don't believe that certain leaders can today attempt to say that they are talking on behalf of the students in our area.
True to the clarion call by the people of South Africa who gathered in Kliptown, Soweto, in 1955, that the people shall govern, the NCOP, the Limpopo provincial legislature and Limpopo municipalities gathered at Tubatse in the Sekhukhune area from 23 to 26 March 2010. This gathering culminated in serious interactions with the ordinary masses of our people under the theme: "Taking Parliament to the People."
We are confident in Limpopo that, had the warrior-king, King Sekhukhune, been around during this particular event, he would have retorted that the blood and sweat spilt by his people in their uprising against their colonial masters was not in vain. It was at this event that we witnessed the people's power and people's government in motion. The people are indeed in governance in the Republic. Our people have been voting and have been voted into governance in this country, our beloved Republic of South Africa, which is presently under the able leadership of President Jacob Zuma of the ANC.
We are all aware that as we say that the people shall govern, the statement in itself bestows rights and obligations upon us all. More importantly, it brings with it the right to vote and the right to be voted into office. This brings with it the right of choice and the right to be chosen.
Unmistakably, the people of South Africa in general, and those of Limpopo in particular, have chosen and voted the ANC to be the ruling party of this country. We are confident that, through our deeds, this trend of choice shall continue whenever elections are called in this country, despite lesbian marriages which are being witnessed. [Interjections.]
We are prompted to say that the democratic dispensation in South Africa is very sweet and progressive, hence the kind of choices in relation to marriages, lest we witness domestic violence and the abuse of one partner by the other.
Chairperson, on a point of order: I think the reference to lesbian marriages should be withdrawn. It is totally unparliamentary, and I do not see its relevance in the context of Taking Parliament to the People. I ask that you rule on that.
House Chair, the member who is at the podium never referred to any person. He just referred to the marriage so he is not out of order. Thank you.
Let me put it this way: If the member is still unsatisfied, I think we can check with Hansard and maybe give a ruling at the next sitting of the House in reference to the use of the word "lesbian".
Hon House Chairperson, Africans in this country have been subjected to degradation that has spanned centuries and this has had negative impacts on our people, even to this day. The then government turned us into owls. By that I mean that we have been turned into nocturnal animals. Thanks to the government of the ANC, we are today witnessing communities that have electricity. We are saying this well aware that we have not as yet arrived in this regard, but we have drawn up a realistic programme that is achievable. While our people continue to complain about electricity, we believe that in the end this will be a complaint of the past.
One of the most important aspects and challenges facing our country is economic development. In Sekhukhune this challenge faces us in the wake of the emergence of platinum mining after the discovery of large tracks of platinum. This development is a good indicator for all South Africans.
On the other hand, we cannot continue to see our people suffering whilst they are witnessing tons and tons of riches extracted from their soil for the benefit of the few. It is high time that, as South Africans, we balance the interests of our communities with the interests of the few.
We have had the opportunity to revisit the area of Sekhukhune and, in particular, the Leolo Mountains, where it was indicated during the Taking Parliament to the People visit that mothers die in community hands because the roads are not navigable and people cannot access health facilities such as ambulances. The community spoke the truth as the Mercedes Benz Vito, our allocated transport, could not ascend the mountains and we had to exercise our muscles going up the mountain to witness first-hand what is happening there.
Upon reaching the area, we found that the only visible marks of our government in the area are some RDP houses. The schools that are found in the area are dilapidated, the clinic is a tin house donated by community individuals, and the paypoint is a kraal which is the result of a community initiative.
We are therefore appealing to the national government to ensure that we turn this situation around as soon as possible. Since we have confidence in the ANC, we are thanking you in advance for ensuring that the plan is carried out.
Jane Furse in Makhuduthamaga must, as a matter of urgency, be turned into a rural development node. The area has the potential to develop into one of the first rural towns under the democratic dispensation. "The doors of learning and culture shall be opened." Sekhukhune needs a university and the community is continually asking for one. Let us turn this into a reality so that we can turn our people there into better persons, equipped with the knowledge to manage and produce their own wealth.
As Limpopo, we therefore move for the adoption of the report on the "Taking Parliament to the People" programme undertaken in Limpopo from 23 to 26 March 2010. I thank you. [Applause.]
Chairperson, hon members, the IFP supports the initiative of Taking Parliament to the People. It is very important that South Africans are able to engage on all matters that they are confronted with in their cities, towns, and rural areas on a daily basis. As Parliament, we are bound to make sure that we listen to the voices of the people out there.
I-IFP ikweseka ngokuphelele ukuhanjiswa kwePhalamende kubantu, ngoba noMthethosisekelo wezwe uyakubalula ukuthi njengezisebenzi zomphakathi, kufanele lokhu kwenzeke sihambe siye kubona abantu.
Kodwa-ke, Mhlonishwa Sihlalo, uMnu Mahlangu, ukhuluma into enkulu uma ekhuluma ngokuthi wonke amazinga kahulumeni kufanele abambisane. Kuyisicelo sami esikhulu njengendoda yakwaZulu, uMuntukaphiwana Zulu, uMbongiseni uMilton, ukuba ukubhekisise kahle ukuthi ezifundazweni zethu eziyisishiyagalolunye, kukhona ukubukela phansi omasipala ngendlela engakaze ibonwe okudala ukuthi kube nokuncintisana, kanti akukho ukuncintisana emnyangweni kahulumeni.
Ngokufunda kwami uMthethosisekelo wezwe, angazi noma ngisuke ngiwubhekise phansi yini, umhlonishwa uSomlomo WoMkhandlu Kazwelonke Wezifundazwe noweNdlu kaZwelonke, basezingeni elilinganayo. Isicelo sami sisodwa-ke mhlonishwa kuyofanele ukuthi niyihlalele phansi le ndaba niyixoxe.
Indlu Yesishayamthetho Sikazwelonke iyodwa ayisilo iPhalamende, naleNdlu Yomkhandlu Kazwelonke Wezifundazwe ayisilo iPhalamende iyodwa, siyiphalamende sihlangene sisonke. Bese nifundisana kahle ukuthi amandla okusebenza nabelana kanjani, ngoba leNdlu ingaphezu kwazo zonke izindlu eNingizumu Afrika uma ngibuka, ngoba zonke izifundazwe zimelwe la. Izindaba ziqala la ngaphambi kokuba ziyi laphaya kobhuti abadala.
Ngaleyo ndlela kufanele nihlale phansi nibonisane ukuthi lezo zinto ningazenza kanjani, ngoba ukuthatha iPhalamende niliyise kubantu, yilapho abantu bezokwazi khona ukubeka izimvo zabo, banihlabe njengamalungu ephalamende bathi anisebenzi, uma kunjalo. Nikwazi ukubona ukuthi nizokwenzanjani ukuze kube nenqubekela phambili. Njengabantu ababegqilazekile mhlonishwa, kufanele abantu bakithi bazuze ezweni lethu. Kuwo wonke amaqembu ezepolitiki. Ngiyazi ukuthi intando yeningi ithi kufanele kuphikiswane ... (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.) [The IFP fully supports the initiative of Taking Parliament to the People, because even the country's Constitution states that we must do this as public servants. We need to go to the people.
However, hon Chairperson, Mr Mahlangu says all the spheres of government must work together. It is my humble request as Mr Muntukaphiwana Mbongiseni Milton Zulu that you pay the same amount of attention to all our nine provinces. The municipalities are looked down upon like never before, which leads to competition, whereas there is no competition between government departments.
When I read the Constitution - I don't know if I read it facing down - the hon Speaker of the National Council of Provinces and the Speaker of the National Assembly are at the same level. My only request, hon member, is that you must sit down and discuss this matter.
The House of the National Assembly alone is not Parliament, and the House of the National Council of Provinces alone is not Parliament either; together we make Parliament. You must also influence each other on how to separate and share powers, because I think this House is above all the Houses in South Africa, because all the provinces are represented here. The discussion starts here, after which it is forwarded to the big brothers.
In that way, you must sit down and discuss how you are going to do things, because the Taking Parliament to the People programme is where people can have their say, criticising you as the Members of Parliament by, for example, saying that you do not deliver, if that is the case. So that you can see what you need to do so that there can be some progress. We were oppressed. Our people from all political parties must benefit in our country. I know that democracy means that there must be debates ...]
... debating is part of a democratic process ...
... kodwa ukuphikisana kwethu makube ngokwakhayo. Abantu bakithi balambile, bacindezelwa ubandlululo iminyaka, baboshwa, baba yizigqila zombusazwe, kodwa akumele sithi akufanele iPhalamende lihambele kubantu, ngoba kufanele sakhe thina iphrojekthi yethu, ibe iphrojekthi eqondile kwazeke ukuthi, sizokwenzanjani ukufeza izidingo zabantu, sazi ukuthi siyaqala ukuba kuhulumeni, kule minyaka engu 16 nje sikuhulumeni, kufanele sibone ukuthi sizokwenza njani ukufundisisa umthetho sibe nemihlangano yokucobelela ulwazi, ukuze sikwazi ukubheka izinto zakithi. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[... but our debates must be constructive. Our people are hungry, they were oppressed by apartheid for years; they were arrested and became political slaves. We must not say that Parliament must not be taken to the people, because we have to make our project a straightforward one so that we know what needs to be done to take care of people's needs. We must know that we are in government for the first time. In these 16 years in government we must know what to do to understand the law and have workshops, so that we are able to attend to our duties. Thank you.]
Mohlomphegi Modulasetulo, ke leboga go fiwa sebaka se sa gore le nna ke t?ee karolo dipoledi?anong t?a pego ya Taking Parliament to the People. Re tla be re ?ola ge re ka re re kgethilwe ke batho ra se ye go bona.
Eup?a pele ke tsena polelong ya ka - t?e nt?i di ?et?e di bolet?we - ke rata go laet?a gore ga re a swanela gore ge re etla mo pele mo re tle go bolela le set?haba ka mo Ngwakong ra apara matlalo a dinku goba a dinkwe mola re le dipudi. Re swanet?e go bolela dinnete. Leloko le lengwe le bolet?e mo gore mmu?o wa ANC o thwet?e baruti?i bao ba sa rutegago; bao ba sa tsebego go ruta bana dikolong. Setatamente se ga se sa maleba ebile ga se sa nnete. Se ke go foraforet?a Ngwako wo le set?haba. Ga ke kgolwe gore go na le mmu?o wo o lego gona wa go t?ea gabotse go swana le wa ANC wo o ka kgonago go thwala batho bao ba sa kgonego go ruta bana. [T?hwahlelo.] (Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)
[Mr T A MASHAMAITE: Hon Chairperson, thank you for affording me the opportunity to take part in the debate about the report on the Taking Parliament to the People programme. It will be unfair to the people who elected us if we do not go visit them.
A lot has been said already but let me indicate that we must not claim to be smart when we speak in the House. We have to tell the facts. One of the members indicated that the ANC government employed unqualified teachers who are not even competent in teaching. This statement is not true and again the member lied to both the House and the gallery. I do not believe that the ANC government can employ teachers who are not competent in teaching. [Interjections.]]
Chair, on a point of order: If the interpretation is correct, the member is accusing another member of lying to the House. He did not specify which member. So, I would like to ask you to rule on whether it is parliamentary to accuse another member of lying. And, if he did accuse him of that, which member was he referring to?
Which member did he accuse of lying?
He said another member in this debate said these things and that he was lying.
I didn't pick that up. It's going to be difficult if you say that he said "a member" without any specific reference to a particular member. [Interjections.]
Chair, he is speaking about a member and he said that member is lying. [Interjections.]
Can I satisfy myself and refer to Hansard? We can then make a ruling after that because I didn't pick it up.
Ke a leboga, Morena Modulasetulo. Ke akanya gore ntlha ya ka ke e bolet?e gomme e kwaget?e.
Ke boela tabeng ye e bolet?wego ke Modulasetulo gore go ya ga rena Ga- Sekhukhune go ?et?e go laet?a go tli?a dikenywa ka ge go ?et?e go na le t?eo di dirwago ka ga dillo t?eo di t?weledit?wego ke batho mabapi le ditirelo. Ke gopola gore lenaneo le la Taking Parliament to the People le bohlokwa kudu ka moo e lego gore re swanet?e go le tii?a le go le kaonafat?a gore le tle le kgone go tli?et?a batho ba gaborena ditirelo ka mo go nyakegago ka gona.
Modulasetulo o bolet?e mo gore go ?et?e go dirilwe mananeo a mangwe a thu?o. Re leboga mananeo ao, le ge e le gore pego ka ga wona ga se e?o e tle semmu?o mo Ngwakong.
Ke nnete gore naga ya Ga-Sekhukhune ke naga yeo e nago le bodiidi - bodiidi bjo bo bonagalago le ge o sepela gona. Mmu?o le Palamente di swanet?e go bona gore di fokot?a bodiidi bjo - maloko a mangwe a ?et?e a bolet?e ka ga se. Eup?a ke rata go ?upet?a gore mogongwe nako ye re e fago lenaneo le la Taking Parliament to the People ga e a lekana gore batho ba ka bolela dilo t?eo di ba tshwenyago mabapi le ditirelo ka moka ga t?ona. Mogongwe re ka oket?a mat?at?i a lona gomme la ba mat?at?i a mahlano a go tlala. Ke bolela se ka lebaka la gore ke bone re kopana le batho mat?at?ing a mararo - go tloga ka di 23 go fihla ka di 26. Nako ye ke ye nnyane kudu kudu bathong ba gaborena go ya ka nna. Ke gopola gore re lebelele gore na re ka se kgone go oket?a nako ye. Se se tla fa le batho bao ba ?omago sebaka sa go ba gona lenaneong le ka gore le bona ba na le mathata. Bona ba tla be ba sa ile me?omong ge re bolela le batho mosegare. Ke kgopela gore re e le lebedi?i?e taba ye ya go okelet?a batho ba gaborena nako.
Bjalo ka ge ke ?et?e ke bolet?e, lenaneo le le swanet?e go t?wela pele gore set?haba se humane monyetla wa go bolela le baemedi ba sona go laet?a matshwenyego a sona mabapi le ditirelo gore maphelo a sona a kaonafale. Go t?ea Palamente gomme ra e i?a bathong go kopanya dikgoro ka moka t?a mmu?o go tee gore di tlo kwa batho gore ba lla ka ditirelo t?a mohuta mang. Se sengwe seo ke bonego se ntshwenya ke gore o tla humana kgoro e bolela gore ga e na ditekanyet?o t?a selo se it?ego gomme e ka se sa kgona go se dira selo seo. Ka mant?u a mangwe, go i?a ga rena Palamente bathong go ba gona morago ga ge ditekanyet?o di ?et?e di fetile. Ka gona, Bomokhuduthamaga goba dikgoro di na le go khuta ka taba ya gore ga go na ditekanyet?o t?a selo se it?ego. Eup?a o humana e le gore batho ba bolela ka selo seo se ba sokot?ago gomme ba se nyaka ka yona nako yeo. Re swanet?e re e lebelele taba ye ya gore dikgoro di t?hirele ka taba ya gore ga go na t?helete ya go dira dilo t?e it?ego.
Sa mafelelo se ke ratago go se bolela ke gore ke nnete re swanet?e go boela Ga-Sekhukhune bjalo ka dikomiti t?a Palamente. Re swanet?e go boela gore batho ba Ga-Sekhukhune ba se felet?e go re bona let?at?ing lela re i?it?e Palamente go bona. Re swanet?e go boela go bona re yo dira ditekolo.
Ke ?ikinya gore Ngwako wo o amogele pego ye gore re tle re kgone go ?oma ka yona go lekola gore na mafapha a ?omela dit?haba t?a gaborena.
Ke a leboga [Legofsi.] (Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)
[Mr T A MASHAMAITE: Thank you, hon Chairperson. I think I presented my facts clearly.
I am back to the statement made by the Chairperson about our oversight visit to Ga-Sekhukhune. The oversight visit is already bearing fruit because the people's concerns on service delivery are already being responded to. The programme of Taking Parliament to the People is very important. We have to enhance it so that it benefits the people in terms of service delivery.
The Chairperson indicated that there are other support programmes in place. We appreciate that, even though a report on those programmes has not yet been formally brought to the House.
It is true that Ga-Sekhukhune has been hard hit by poverty. The government, together with Parliament, have to intervene to reduce poverty in that area - this has already been said by other members. I would like to indicate that the total number of days allocated for the programme of Taking Parliament to the People is not enough for people to state all their concerns. We can maybe increase the number of days to five because we only met with the people from 23-26 March. I suggest that we look into this because people who are working will also be accommodated. We usually talk to the people during the day when the workers are at their respective workplaces.
This programme must be continued for the public to get a chance to voice their concerns with regard to service delivery in order to improve their lives. The Taking Parliament to the People programme enables the different government departments to meet and listen to people's concerns. I sometimes get disturbed when the government department indicates that there is no budget for something and therefore that very thing will not be done. We take Parliament to the people after budget allocations. Government departments have a tendency of using a lack of budget as an excuse for not delivering on services that are urgently needed by the people. This matter needs serious attention.
Lastly, we have to organise another oversight visit to Ga-Sekhukhune. I suggest that the House accepts this report so that we can use it to evaluate delivery by government departments.
Thank you. [Applause.]]
Hon members, it has been brought to my attention that there seems to be a problem with the interpreting system, which could have also led to some misinterpretation or which can lead to misinterpretation of what members are saying. So, just bear with the system. I think they are working on it.
House Chairperson, hon M J Mahlangu, and all hon members, our visit to the Greater Sekhukhune District Municipality took place within a particular context. Apart from pursuing our objectives for this term of Parliament, there was a strong human rights element, given that this visit took place in March.
Interestingly, International Women's Day falls on 8 March, while our National Women's Day falls on 9 August, the month we chose for the consideration of this report. In line with the struggle for women's rights, I have picked up one particular concern in the report that relates to women, children and people with disabilities.
The report notes that the needs of these groups are often not met, especially in relation to jobs, education, housing and access to transport, as well as access to buildings by people with disabilities. It states that women are vulnerable to violence, human trafficking and harmful cultural practices such as ukuthwala, which is the kidnapping of young women - girls, to be specific - who are forced into marriages, often with much older men.
The questions that we must ask ourselves are: How can this happen in the age of human rights? What can we do, especially in this Women's Month, to ensure that these violations of human rights and women's rights are stopped? Our commitment to addressing these challenges is not in question. In fact, we have a progressive Constitution that enshrines the rights of all groups in society. Perhaps the challenge we must tackle is the pace at which we are moving towards addressing them.
As part of our oversight function, we have to ensure that people's lives are improved and get better. Our strategic document notes that: In the performance of oversight over the above-mentioned areas there is a need to look at the impact on vulnerable groups, including women and children. Oversight work should take into consideration government's commitments to job creation and the improvement of the living and working conditions of the people.
We know that we have inadequate resources to tackle the challenges, but we need to check, especially through our committees, whether our priorities in the area of social transformation are in line with our aspirations.
One of the core functions of Parliament is to facilitate public participation, hence the NCOP embarked on this programme to meet the people in Limpopo. Public participation is the key to ensuring that government understands the needs of the people, to make decisions that will meet those needs in the best way possible. There is no better way to understand the needs of the people than to go to them to see, feel, listen to and be part of their daily struggles.
Now that we have engaged in dialogue with the people of Limpopo, the next logical step is to forge ways to find the desired solutions. The report makes some recommendations which we must consider as we reflect on the outcome of this exercise. For example, the report recommends that the NCOP should support government's commitment to assist vulnerable groups to enhance their quality of life through the provision of a full range of services, including access to transport, bursaries and the inclusive approach to education which would integrate the needs of those with disabilities.
The NCOP's commitment in this regard is not in doubt. We must remember that the Constitution strategically places us, as the NCOP, within our intergovernmental relations system. The Constitution states that all spheres of government - national, provincial and local - have to make it easy for people to participate in government.
However, government alone cannot build a better life. It is important that communities and all stakeholders become partners of government. So, it is us, Parliament, as the voice of the people, who must encourage them to participate in government programmes and in influencing decisions, as we have done in Limpopo.
The issues raised by the people of Burgersfort are still indelible in our minds. And it makes one proud that our democracy is able to promote and sustain rigorous discussion on serious service delivery challenges in trying to reconstruct our country. Section 72(1) of the Constitution provides that the National Council of Provinces must facilitate public involvement in the legislative and other processes of the Council and its committees. It must conduct its business in an open manner and hold its sittings, and those of its committees, in public.
The Taking Parliament to the People programme in Limpopo underscored the importance of people's involvement in their own governance. It communicated a clear message to our people that nothing about them can ever be done without their presence and full participation. The report itself leaves no doubt that we have to do a follow-up. This is explicit in some of the recommendations made in the report, and we have already started engaging the legislature in Limpopo on the same issues.
Committees that are following up on the various issues raised in the report must pay particular attention to the integrated development plans, IDPs, of the various municipalities. I say this because most of the complaints and issues raised by the people relate to issues that are reflected, in some way, in the IDP. IDPs are important to us, as we are the overseers of intergovernmental relations and co-operative governance. They are an important part of our oversight work, and I am pleading with everybody in this House that, if we work together, we are bound to overcome quite a lot of hurdles.
Let us forget about different affiliations when we deal with the very destitute people in rural areas. Let us tell ourselves that we are part of the African community, and pledge ourselves to see to it that we pull them out of those ruts and enable them to live a better life. Thank you. [Applause.]
House Chairperson, once more, to respond to the debate, allow me to start with this quote, which I remembered when people were debating here. This reminded me of Rev Martin Luther King, Jr. He said:
I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood ... I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the colour of their skin but by the content of their character ... I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight; "and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together."
That is what Martin Luther King, Jr said and he was addressing thousands of Americans when he wanted them to be delivered from slavery in the United States of America in those days, young as he was. I think we are very fortunate in South Africa that we have achieved the dream that we always wanted to achieve. We have it, and we are lucky that we did it without shedding a lot of blood. We did it by ourselves, without actually tearing each other into pieces although there have been casualties along the way.
What I want to say today is that I, as long as I am in this leadership position, and other people of the NCOP will commit ourselves to work tirelessly for the people of South Africa, who have worked with us on the ground for their benefit and to make their lives much better. In leadership positions such as we hold, the significant problems we have today cannot be solved at the same level of thinking as some people created them in the past. We have to have different thinking today. We need a generation that can think differently. We need a generation that can channel things differently. We need a generation that can say: Here are the communities of South Africa; they are looking to us.
The hope of the Christians is Jesus Christ, that one day they will be in heaven. The hope of the communities of South Africa are the politicians who are seated here, that one day they will benefit from what they are doing, the laws they are making, the service delivery that is taking place; and nothing else. [Applause.]
Therefore, hon members, we cannot come into the House like this and be negative all together as MPs and throw the table and say there is nothing we can do; everything is bad, and everything is above our shoulders, and all we can do is stand here and lament and cry like small babies and children, without coming with new thinking, new objectives and goals, that our people can achieve in this country, South Africa, that we all so love. I think I should say again that we are blessed. When you want to improve in this world, never be negative in your life. When you want to improve this world, change your attitude and associate yourself with those people who can think better and make life better for other people. You are not here because you are very important, but you are here because the people thought you can make their lives better.
That is the reason we are here, and that is why we have to do this job. Never mind the workload that we have; we have to carry it. Never mind how heavy it is; we have to carry it until such time as we can say that we have achieved what we wanted to achieve. We will work for the people of South Africa, whether they are in KwaZulu-Natal, Free State, North West, Gauteng, or Mpumalanga. The commitment should be: We will achieve those things; nothing is above our shoulders.
Therefore, I want to say to you all today that we shouldn't be lamenting, but we should come with the problems and stand here and say what it is that the NCOP can do to change things in terms of co-operative governance, like Umntwana [Prince] Zulu has said. What can we do to work together? Colour doesn't matter in this case. [Applause.] Sexism does not matter in this case.
When you are hungry, you are hungry. When you are sick, you are sick. When you have to travel, you need the road. It does not matter who you are. All those things need us, as politicians, to address them and one day stand tall and be proud and say that during the term of our service, we have been in a position to achieve these things. I thank you all for contributing during this debate, and we will continue to lead and lead and lead until we achieve the results that we want. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Hon members, that concludes the debate. I shall now put the question. The question is that the report be adopted or agreed to. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the House. Are all delegation heads present in the House?
HON MEMBERS: Yes!
In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make a declaration of vote. Is there any province that wishes to make a declaration?
We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please ... Because of the problem with the system, I don't know whether it is working.
It is working.
Is it working? I guess by now we know how the system works. All delegation heads are to insert their cards and to press number one for their presence and so forth. We now come to the voting. When I call the name of the province, the delegation head will press the relevant button to vote.
It would be wise, hon members, in future, to avoid creating confusion for the presiding officer and for the delegation heads to sit where they should sit because I am looking at the chairs now - but it is fine. Have all provinces voted now? You have an opportunity now if by any chance you have voted wrongly. Voting shall therefore be closed. May I be assisted with the results?
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.