Madam Speaker, the question is in relation to how contractors, or a specific contractor in Matatiele, are manipulating, or are alleged to be manipulating, lists of beneficiaries of houses and how we are dealing with that situation.
In response, we are saying that we are watching the Matatiele human settlements situation very carefully with regard to the question of corruption. A number of steps have been taken.
The provincial department, working with us, has scheduled a meeting with the housing committee, including the contractor and municipalities, to try and obtain the names of those persons who had allegedly acquired housing units fraudulently as a result of the activities of the said contractor.
Once the information is available, the matter will be investigated further and put before the Special Investigating Unit. To ensure that housing allocations are done in an equitable, fair and just manner, my department has developed a National Housing Needs Register from which all prospective beneficiaries will be sourced. It is envisaged that the new system will minimise corruption in the allocation of housing.
To further enhance the process, the department has also developed allocation guidelines to assist the provinces and municipalities. We ensure transparent and fair processes for the allocation of housing subsidies. We believe that these measures will go a long way in strengthening our policies.
However, Speaker and hon Dambuza, what applies to Matatiele must apply everywhere. Hon members would also be aware that we have launched a comprehensive national audit on fraud and corruption to respond proactively on all these matters, whether they are in Matatiele or anywhere else.
Let me state without any equivocation that we are not going to retreat in our fight against corruption. We are putting measures in place to tighten up on monitoring, working together with Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, and other relevant players.
We want to bring normality to Matatiele and other areas. Those contractors, builders or government officials who get involved in corruption will be brought to book. I am happy to announce - we will make a further announcement in our budget speech as the situation develops - that we have already arrested more than 300 people, including government officials. The majority were at national government level and the minority at provincial government level. [Applause.]
Colleagues, corruption is something that we all must fight on both sides of this House, if the poor are to get their services correctly. I thank you. [Applause.]
Madam Chairperson, let me thank the Minister for his comprehensive response. As the ANC, we appreciate and commend the strategy to enhance the housing allocation process. However, subsequent to that, can the Minister assure the House that such guidelines or policy measures shall address, in particular, the importance of working together with Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, in applying the government's accountability to the public in order to maintain and restore confidence, rather than relegating such an important function or such powers to the contractors? It is, after all, the responsibility of the government to ensure that public interaction is done by the public representatives. Hence there has been a belief. [Time expired.]
Madam Deputy Speaker and hon Dambuza, let me assure or reassure the House that we will remain seized with this matter, as I indicated. It is correct, hon Dambuza, that outsourcing such a critical function, against the background of how people outside there are protesting and sometimes engaging in wrongful violent protests, should be reviewed. Outsourcing to private contractors such critical functions as housing lists, how people queue and the allocation to beneficiaries is something that we want to review. I will be having a meeting tomorrow with our Minmec, all nine MECs, in Durban and I will put this before them.
Contractors must be removed from handling housing lists because there is always the danger that at the end of the day their decisions, not those of government officials or of government political leaders, will be the ones that influence the course of history outside there. [Applause.]
It is important, therefore, that this House is assured that we will remain seized with this problem. We are going to put a Special Investigating Unit, SIU, onto the people involved and onto those contractors who have manipulated the lists. Let me tell you also that five lawyers have been disqualified and struck off the roll because they were involved in machinations of this type. I thank you. [Applause.]
Madam Speaker, I think it is important to say that the list is not always corrupted by the contractors. It is actually corrupted by counsellors and officials themselves, given that for the contractors to allocate or to apply for a development in a particular area, they have to state the number of beneficiaries according to the categories.
Is it possible for the contractors or the list process to be done away with because without the list process, you would have to change the policy of your contractors who applied to do a development for rental accommodation, affordable housing, bankable housing and so forth? How will you deal with that without the list process, taking into account that the counsellors themselves are corrupt? [Time expired.]
Madam Speaker, I wish the hon member had not crossed the floor to Cope because he was the last adviser to the Minister of Housing. I am prepared to give you back the position as my adviser. [Laughter.]
We agree that there are sensitivities to the list process and we believe that if it is done manually it will always be open to manipulation.
I have established an information communications technology, ICT, system around housing lists, which will be launched next month. This will enable the Minister and any one of us here, through a laptop with a special code and a computer password, to track any list in all nine provinces, in the cities, in a specific housing project - we currently have more than 8 000 housing projects on the ground. You can actually login and know who is on the list, how that list is moving and so on.
What is crucial for our people, and why they are not accepting anything less, is that being in the queue as a beneficiary is not a problem. The problem is seeing the queue remaining stagnant. Today you can be number 44, but tomorrow you can be number 68. They want to see progress. That's all we owe them - as Nyerere once said, people are not asking for houses now, education now, health now - those types of things. What they want is demonstrable evidence that we take them seriously - to apply this ICT.
Leave the manual system to ensure that I, when I'm sitting in the Ministry, and anybody here, can press a computer in this House and have access to these lists. Only when we have publicised these electronic lists can journalists, members here and portfolio committee members follow the process. We believe that it will lead to a reduction, not the complete eradication, of corruption. We are getting there. I thank you. [Applause.]
Chairperson and hon Minister, we appreciate that there are now ways and means of preventing the situation where there would be unqualified beneficiaries. But, there is still the problem of people who are being allocated houses because they qualify but, down the line, they sell the houses. What is to be done about that? Thank you.
Chairperson, it is a catch-22 situation. Firstly, all South Africans, and all of us, have equal rights. Secondly, as government, and with resources passed by this House, we allocate housing to the poor. The objective or the intention is not to imprison them into that asset forever. They should not just be owners of an asset but must also participate in the property market; be able to have a house and to sell it.
There are strict rules that apply to Reconstruction and Development Programme, RDP, houses. They can only be sold after a certain period of time. I agree with you, hon member, that in some instances we find people selling those houses and getting rid of these government-provided assets before the allocated timelines. That is what we have to prevent. They sell these houses to unscrupulous elements within business, law firms, certain banking officials and, in certain situations, to immigrants coming from as far afield as Pakistan, Zimbabwe, Nigeria and so on.
Nothing is wrong with people coming here. But there is something wrong with people coming to this country and robbing the poor, taking away those important assets that have been given by government in the form of subsidies. So we want to act within that. But, as we do so, we should not be disempowering ordinary people from being just like all of us here: having an asset and being able to trade that asset at a given moment so that they can materialise it and move on. But I'm saying that we are going to look very carefully at how we prescribe and proscribe these timelines, to prevent abuse of the system. Thank you. [Applause.]
Chairperson and Minister, this problem is not confined to Matatiele. From our oversight visits, it would appear that both contractors and counsellors have carte blanche over the beneficiary list.
Given this situation, I'm glad to hear you say that you are looking at guidelines. However, guidelines are just that: they're guidelines and they don't necessarily have to be followed. Under the circumstances, therefore, will you consider introducing an equitable, uniform policy that can be enforced as far as this beneficiary list is concerned? Lastly, Mr Minister, could I have access to that code you referred to, please? Thank you.
Madam Speaker, I didn't hear the last words of the second part of the question. Oh! Do you mean the access code? I see. Let me start with that question. The access code or, as I said, the password, will be made available, but I said that we are launching the monitoring ICT system next month. Allow us to launch it first. Let's monitor how it works, correct the teething problems and then it will be open to members here in this House so that we can follow any project anywhere in the country.
I agree with you that the situation does not only apply to Matatiele. You will remember that in my comments earlier on I said what applies to Matatiele must apply countrywide. So I take your advice and will implement what you are saying, if need be. Thank you. High Court ruling ordering City of Johannesburg to pay rent on behalf of illegal occupants
65. Mr A C Steyn (DA) asked the Minister of Human Settlements:
(1) Whether he has been informed of the ruling of the High Court in Gauteng in which the City of Johannesburg was ordered to pay rent to a property owner on behalf of persons illegally occupying a building in Berea (details furnished); if so,
(2) whether he will make a statement on the matter? NO590E
Hon Chairperson, the hon Steyn asked an important question regarding a ruling made by the Gauteng Division of the High Court. He asked if we were aware of this ruling and if we were prepared to make a public statement about it.
Yes, the Ministry is indeed aware of the ruling of the South: Gauteng High Court, wherein the City of Johannesburg was ordered to pay rent to Blue Mountain Properties on behalf of persons who were illegally occupying their commercial property located within the Johannesburg central business district.
At this stage, and bearing in mind what was said earlier by the Deputy Speaker, it will not be appropriate to make a statement on the matter because the City of Johannesburg is in the process of filing an appeal against this judgment. The matter, therefore, remains sub judice. However, we view this matter with serious concern. It does have far-reaching political, policy and budgetary implications.
As the Minister, I, together with the Gauteng province and the City of Johannesburg, will remain seized with this matter. This also includes the Minister of Justice, my colleague, hon Radebe, who brought it to the attention of the Cabinet last week. After consultation, we will go deeper into this matter in my Budget Vote on 21 April 2010. I hope by that time the situation will have gone some way to being resolved.
Let me mention that the danger we are confronted with is a series of court case judgments which are policy-making. There is a judgment on shacks in Ekurhuleni, KwaZulu-Natal, Delft N2, and so forth. We make laws here, not forgetting that courts make laws known as case laws. The problem is that these case laws are beginning to impact on human settlement policy. We are confronted with a situation which, if it's not addressed amicably in co- operation with those who passed the judgments, may end up causing chaos in the country.
To conclude, some of these cases promote illegality - which is called the legalisation of illegality - whereby people can occupy your piece of land and you cannot evict them before you find an alternative piece of land or accommodation for them. In this regard, there are Small Enterprise Development Agency, SEDA, ramifications. Thank you.
Hon Minister, I fully agree with you that this judgment can be devastating, not only to municipalities but certainly to the Department of Human Settlements. Now, should the appeal fail, hon Minister, would you consider bringing legislation to this House in terms of which we can counteract the negative effects that this judgment will have on housing and the provision of housing going forward? Thank you.
Whilst respecting the sacred and fundamental principle of the separation of powers, we must understand that judges have a hand. I hope we will find a solution. We would be discussing this question with the Chief Justice and, like I said, the hon Minister Radebe is engaged on this matter and, with our support, brought it to the Cabinet.
At this stage, I shouldn't jump the gun by saying whether we would consult you, the members of this House, to ask for permission to pass a piece of legislation to address this. We want to see how this matter will resolve itself in the process of the filing of this appeal by the City of Johannesburg.
Minister, this certainly does have dire consequences for us and, certainly, for municipalities. Could I ask if you have any idea of the size of this problem, because you've been out there pretty much these last nine months? I also want to ask: If this is a very large problem, will municipalities be able to meet this obligation? If not, would government consider assisting municipalities when they are perhaps faced with their ratepayers having to foot the bill for illegal occupations? Thank you.
Hon Borman, at this stage, as I've indicated, because of the appeal it is not feasible to quantify the size of the problem. The size of the problem is equal to the case itself and to the judgment. There was an appeal; we are waiting for the outcome.
Of course, we must be warned that if that appeal does not succeed, the ramifications are not just, hon Steyn, for human settlements. They will affect everybody, everyone sitting here, because you would have to pay wherever the poor, or whoever it might be, are occupying land, a house or anything anywhere. If the appeal is not successful, you'll just have to pay rent for those people who cannot afford it. Also, this Blue Mountain Properties is a private company and you will have to pay them too. It means that the Treasury will be fundamentally affected. This matter has very far- reaching implications. We can only pray.
Minister, this issue is very serious. If you look at the existing legislation, that is, the prevention of illegal eviction Act, PIE, is there not perhaps an answer to be found? Look at the existing Act - actually, take it off the shelves. It has been there for a long time and it should have been addressed long before this. You might be part of the problem by not implementing that Act. Thank you very much.
I am glad to receive a question from my adviser, and we are waiting for you to come back - all of you. You know who you are. [Laughter.]
Hon members, the PIE Act was promulgated in this House. Its intention was to assist people who were being evicted from certain places - land they occupied on farms, and so on. It doesn't apply to this case. It is actually the PIE Act upon which these judgments are based. You remember that it was hon Sisulu who mounted a challenge against the PIE Act in the famous Grootboom case, and we lost.
All these judgments, about shacks in Delft, Ekurhuleni, Gwala and now, of late, the Johannesburg judgment, are based on that Grootboom ruling. Illegality is now protected by law; therefore, it is a very serious situation. Today, any number of people can come and occupy the premises, or even this House, and you cannot evict them unless and until you have found alternative accommodation. That's how serious this matter is.
So, the essence of the problem starts with that Act, which was passed here. However, the Act was not passed for the purpose of preventing the "illegal" eviction of people who do this thing today. It was attempting to address the past - history - but unfortunately history has caught up with us.
Steps by department to have rehabilitation centres established and to prevent abuse of harmful substances
53. Mrs W J Nelson (ANC) asked the Minister of Social Development:
What steps (a) is her department taking to ensure that rehabilitation centres are established in each province and (b) is she taking in conjunction with the MECs to prevent the abuse of harmful substances in recreational facilities, schools and clubs?