Deputy Chairperson, the second question is linked to the first question, which the hon member agreed to wait for when we started. The third question is the question by hon Makhubela.
Deputy Chairperson, the 1995 judgment in the case of the State v Makwanyane by Justice Chaskalson has been further clarified by the Constitutional Court in 2002 in the judgment of Ex parte Minister of Safety and Security and others in relation to Walters and Another.
The SA Police Service abides by the judgment of the Constitutional Court in the latter case. Thank you.
Deputy Chairperson, this is based on the second question. You can respond to it together with the other questions. Minister, on the second one, I am sure that you will agree that you can never call a person who is a criminal in a blue uniform a policeman. That person is not fit to be in the service. What I am saying is that you as a Minister must conduct an investigation to find out if some of them have not infiltrated the force to push their own dirty agendas and call themselves the police. You will agree with that, Minister. This is the question. Here's the chairperson now, sitting next to me.
Madam Deputy Chair, yes, I agree.
Hon Bloem, you seem to be jumping around. The Minister had answered the questions that were posed. Now you have jumped to another one. Yes, you have done that. If you want any clarity, can you hold on? I will give you the correct answer. No, Mr Bloem. Can we proceed?
I don't ...
With all due respect, hon Bloem, please, just for a second, pay heed. I will come back to you. Minister, have you answered all your questions? Thank you very much.
Number of prisoners getting ARV treatment in prisons, reasons for prisoners that are clinically supposed to be getting ARVs but are not, and steps to expand distribution of ARVs in prison
3. Ms N D Ntwanambi (ANC) asked the Minister of Correctional Services:
(1) What is the total number of prisoners who are getting antiretroviral, ARV, treatment in prisons across South Africa;
(2) whether there are any prisoners that are clinically supposed to be getting ARVs but are not; if so, what are the reasons for them not getting the ARVs;
(3) whether her department will take any steps to expand the distribution of ARVs in prisons; if not, why not; if so, what steps? CO60E
Deputy Chair, the Minister of Correctional Services is the former Minister of Home Affairs, so I stand in as her Deputy whenever she is unavailable. [Laughter.]
Hon Ntwanambi, the total number of inmates on antiretroviral drugs, ARVs, at the end of the last quarter of 2009, was 7 038, distributed as follows: KwaZulu-Natal had 2 361; Gauteng had 2 119; Limpopo, Mpumalanga and North West together had 1 023; the Eastern Cape had 567; Free State and Northern Cape had 542; and the Western Cape had 426.
There were 1 380 inmates on the ARV-readiness programme at the end of the last quarter of 2009. These are inmates who are eligible for treatment and who are undergoing the treatment-readiness programme by meeting with treatment counsellors for individual information sessions or treatment, by understanding the importance of adherence to treatment and of attending all scheduled pretreatment visits.
There is no prescribed period for the frequency of counselling sessions. This is dependent upon the individual patient's acceptance of his or her HIV status, and their readiness and understanding of the implications of antiretroviral therapy, ART. The minimum is one session per week for two weeks, to monitor compliance and adherence to Cotrimoxazole treatment. Inmates are placed on Cotrimoxazole preventive therapy, CPT, to prevent opportunistic infections such as pneumocystis carinii, pneumonia, meningitis, skin infections and candidiasis.
They attend information and education sessions on nutrition, positive living, support groups, discussions about the drugs and possible side effects as well as the importance of reporting side effects. These sessions are presented by various professionals, such as professional nurses, social workers, treating clinicians, dieticians and others.
Inmates then undergo a final treatment-readiness assessment as determined by the treating health care professionals.
On the third question, the department is taking steps to expand the distribution of ARVs in correctional centres, in line with the presidential mandate announced on 1 December 2009.
Hon Harris, what is it?
Deputy Chairperson, it's a request for clarity: I would like to confirm whether Ministers are allowed to delegate their responsibility to answer questions to any other Minister in the Cabinet?
Read your Rules, hon member.
Deputy Chairperson, if I may proceed?
In conclusion, the department is in the process of conducting an assessment to determine the readiness of health facilities to expand the distribution of ART in line with the national Department of Health's guidelines.
Readiness is determined in terms of the availability of suitable structures and equipment; the availability of professional nurses with a primary health care qualification and with a dispensing certificate; the availability of pharmacists to procure and distribute the ARVs; the availability of dieticians to conduct nutritional assessments and recommend appropriate supplementation; the availability of ARV drugs in accordance with the new drug regimens of the Department of Health guidelines; and the training of all health professionals on the new treatment guidelines and the HIV and Aids counselling and testing policy.
It is anticipated that the assessment process will be conducted by the end of March 2010. Thank you.
Chair, I would like to ask if the circumcision facility will also be made available to male prisoners.
Deputy Chairperson, this is a new matter that has been raised. As we have indicated, the department will comply with the guidelines set up by the Department of Health. If the Department of Health introduces that guideline, the Department of Correctional Services will comply.
Instilling values of constitutionality, patriotism, loyalty, dignity, professionalism, accountability, acceptable code of conduct and unit cohesion in members of SA National Defence Force, and details regarding written curriculum followed
5. Mr M W Makhubela (Cope) asked the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans:
(1) Whether, with reference to her strategic business plan for the period 2009 to 2011, her department began to infuse persons in the forces with values of constitutionality, patriotism, loyalty, dignity, professionalism, accountability, acceptable code of conduct and unit cohesion so that the SA National Defence Force could become a stalwart in the defence of our constitutional democracy; if not, why not; if so, (a) how was this done, (b) who was leading the initiative and (c) how successful has the initiative been thus far;
(2) whether there was any written curriculum being followed; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details? CO54E
Deputy Chair, thank you very much for adjusting the temperature to deal with people like me.
We're sorry about that. We are always freezing in this room.
Thank you. Deputy Chairperson, in answer to the question, I'd like to state that the values of constitutionality, patriotism, loyalty, dignity, professionalism and accountability are instilled in all members of the SA National Defence Force from the day that they enrol in the service.
That which differentiates a soldier from any other service are these values. What is central to the whole ethos of the Defence Force is embodied in the oath taken by each member and reinforced at each and every official function. And for the benefit of the House, I just want to read some of the elements of the oath, which we are very proud of. It says:
I pledge to serve and defend my country and its people in accordance with the Constitution and the law and with honour, dignity, courage and integrity.
I serve in the SANDF with loyalty and pride, as a citizen and a volunteer.
I will treat all people fairly and respect their rights and dignity at all times, regardless of race, ethnicity, gender, religion, culture, language or sexual orientation.
I will not abuse my authority, position or public funds for personal gain, political motive or any other reason.
I think these are very commendable elements in our code of conduct, and I would suggest that perhaps some of the Ministers here could enforce the same code of conduct for their services.
However, I read the oath in part response to the question that was asked by the hon member. Through the basic training, education is instilled and enforced through the command and control of the Defence Force. Specifically, there is a military responsibility for the Chief of the Defence Force, in terms of the Defence Act, to ensure that the training of members ensures that at all times they act in accordance with the Constitution and the law.
The strategic plan for 2009-11 builds on these basic foundations and emphasises the role of continuous education in the Defence Force to ensure that at all times our soldiers are seized with these values to carry out their role with distinction and pride.
Very specifically, in response to part (1)(a) of the question, the requisite training is done through basic military training, which is done over a period of six months for every member of the Defence Force at the point at which they enter the Defence Force.
The answer to part (1)(b) of the question is the following. The leader of the initiative, as prescribed by the law, is the Chief of the SA National Defence Force and he is overseen by the Minister through the secretariat. Part (1)(c) of the question asks how successful the initiative has been. Well, last year's incident on the grounds of the Union Buildings will indicate that continuous training is necessary in ensuring that, at all times, a soldier is a disciplined, dignified stalwart in defence of our democracy. We are prioritising this in our current strategy, supported by all the relevant mechanisms of redress.
In reply to part (2) of the question: yes, we have a written curriculum that is available to the member to investigate and peruse. Thank you.
Deputy Chairperson, I welcome the response that the Minister gave. I would like the Minister to take the House into her confidence with respect to the morale and wellbeing of the forces after the unfortunate scene on the grounds of the Union Buildings.
Secondly - and provided this is not a new question - I would like to ask to what extent the matter has been resolved with respect to the research that was done by the commission. Thank you.
The hon member would like me to take the House into my confidence, and I will endeavour to do so to the extent that it is possible without breaching current procedures which are before the courts right now.
The morale of the soldiers, I believe, is probably as good as we can have it in the Defence Force. When we got into the Defence Force, as this new administration, we were aware of a simmering unhappiness especially over the conditions of service and the salaries of soldiers. This I committed myself to attending to when I addressed the National Assembly on the occasion of the presentation of my Budget Vote to the National Assembly, and I committed myself to attending to the matter of the Defence Force.
I also committed to the Defence Force that we would create a different environment for the Defence Force that was conducive to the maximum utilisation of personnel and ensuring that we have the kind of discipline that we require of the Defence Force.
We have subsequently established a defence military commission. The commission has concluded its first phase, which is to recommend to us what we can do about the conditions of service in the Defence Force. In the first week of December they handed their recommendations to us, which were given to the President as Commander in Chief. We have since accepted the recommendations and increased the salaries of the soldiers, in some cases almost threefold. By the time our soldiers went on their Christmas holiday, they were probably happier than most Members of Parliament.
We are extremely grateful that the commission could do this, because it made it possible for us to redress a problem that probably had been simmering for years in the Defence Force.
With regard to what has happened to those members who showed the ultimate ill discipline, we have taken the necessary disciplinary steps and the matter is before the courts. Thank you.
Thank you, Chair. On a lighter note, Minister, it has been mentioned in the newspapers that most of the soldiers and the police are overweight. I would like to know if there is any programme in progress. How will you address that? Thank you, Minister.
I note that this is a new question, but the Minister will guide us as to whether she is prepared to answer that question.
Between the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans and the Minister of Police I think we are very good representatives of what we believe in. [Laughter.] Do you want me to say any more? [Laughter.] Thank you.
Thank you, Chairperson and Minister. After this question was answered so fully I was so happy. But I wanted the Minister to mention who asked the question because that was not mentioned. [Laughter.] Thank you.
Okay. Thank you very much. I take it that that is a side comment.
Thank you, Chairperson. It seems that there is a change in guard also in this House now.
I just want to ask the Minister, in terms of the code of conduct and the values she referred to, if she believes that there is still a sense of purpose for unions in the army.
Hon Minister, obviously that is a new question, but I will check with you first, Minister, whether you are prepared to take the question. If not, that's fine.
Chairperson, if you will allow me, I want to get back to Mr Makhubela of Cope in Limpopo and give him my sincerest apologies. I did overlook this matter, and I thank him for the question. It gave me the possibility to explain the code of conduct of the Defence Force. It allowed me to say all those good things about the Defence Force. My sincerest gratitude goes to you, hon member.
On the matter of the unions, I think that I would like the opportunity to come back to this House on that matter, specifically because it is not a follow-up question on the issues that we have dealt with right now. I have expressed myself publicly on the matter, but I would like the opportunity, with your permission, to come back to respond to that in full. Thank you.
Hon Chair, I am not quite satisfied with this meeting at all, because I don't think that the Minister of Police answered Questions 4, 8, 9 and 12. [Interjections.]
Is that a follow-up question?
No, I am asking where we are going, because I thought we were ...
We are dealing with ... We are currently ... Can I bring you up to speed?
Are we doing the questions in numerical order?
We have just dealt with Question 5 asked by the hon Makhubela to the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans. And now I was taking the last follow-up question to the Minister. If there is none, then let's go to the next question on the Question Paper, which is Question 6, asked by the hon Makhubela to the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development.
Details regarding establishment of accessible and affordable court system, and details relating thereto
6. Mr M W Makhubela (Cope) asked the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development:
Whether his department succeeded in establishing an accessible and affordable court system that will allow ordinary people who have been removed from the major urban areas to access justice quickly and easily; if not, when will a court system that will deliver a faster and easier resolution of cases be established; if so, what are the relevant details? CO55E
Chairperson, I would like to thank the hon Makhubela for posing a question which is going to allow me to give quite a lengthy reply on the work done by the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development. I wish to advise the hon member that the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development has made considerable progress in establishing an accessible and affordable court system that allows ordinary people, who have been removed from the major urban areas, to access justice quickly and easily.
The current court system is based on the 366 magisterial districts which are largely based on the pre-1994 court system in terms of which better resourced and well-equipped courts were established in cities and affluent areas. Rural areas and former black townships were served by underresourced and poorly equipped branch courts. The following are the programmes undertaken by the department to address this legacy of the apartheid court system: Firstly, we want the rationalisation and redemarcation of the magisterial districts to be consistent with our current constitutional dispensation. This programme seeks to rationalise and align magisterial districts to be consistent with the provincial and municipal dispensation.
The outcome of this exercise is to ensure that there is at least one magistrate's court for every municipality. For bigger municipalities, two or more seats of the magistrate's court will be established. Every magistrate's court and every seat of a magistrate in each of the 287 municipal areas will be adequately resourced and capacitated to meet the needs of communities.
Preliminary consultations within the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security cluster have taken place and recommendations have been drafted, which will be published soon for public comments. Thereafter, the Minister will proclaim the new rationalised areas of jurisdiction of the magistrates' courts. As part of this programme, the department continues to build new courts in municipalities and rural villages that had none previously. The department will also upgrade the existing infrastructure in some of these areas.
Courts that have been recently completed in rural areas include Ekangala Magistrate's Court, while the construction of new courts in Ntuzuma and Katlehong is under way.
Secondly, we want to upgrade current branch courts to full service courts. Branch courts were mainly designed to provide criminal trials only and for civil and family law services, the communities had to travel long distances to main courts in remote cities and towns.
To address this anomaly, the department has embarked on a programme to upgrade branch courts to turn them into full service courts to provide all services, including civil and family law services to local communities.
There are 15 branch courts which were converted into proper courts in August 2009. In the interests of time, I am not going to read all of them, but the details are there in the written response. Similarly, the nine branch courts which will be converted in the 2010-12 financial years are listed in the written reply.
Thirdly, the conversion of the 15 branch courts in rural areas and former black townships during August 2009, and the planned conversion of nine branch courts during the 2010-11 financial year remains the most important milestone in our quest to enhance access to justice in rural villages and townships. The effect thereof is phenomenal. The population served by these courts is estimated at six million cumulatively.
Before 11 August 2009, these six million people had to commute to the main courts in remote cities and towns at huge costs, because prior to the conversion of these branch courts, only limited criminal trials were rendered at those courts. The infrastructure of these courts has been upgraded and human resource capacity increased to capacitate these courts to render full services including civil cases, maintenance, domestic violence, etc. The capacity of these courts has also been increased to include small claims courts and the services of the Master.
Fourthly, the department has also introduced the Traditional Courts Bill which is currently before Parliament. This Bill emanated from the policy framework on the traditional justice system under the Constitution, developed by the department. The Traditional Courts Bill aims to bring about a single statute regulating the role and functions of traditional leaders in the administration of justice. The main objective of this Bill as set out in clause 2 is to, firstly, affirm the values of the traditional justice system. [Time expired.] Thank you very much; and I thank the hon Makhubela as well.
Chairperson, the Deputy Minister talks about the upgrading of courts. I hope I am not sidetracking and going onto another question totally. I would like to ask the Deputy Minister if there are security measures in place at the upgrading of these courts, because that has been a major problem?
Chairperson, it is indeed a separate question. I can just say in general terms that we do recognise the importance of security at all of our courts. The department does have a range of security measures in place to ensure the safety of the facilities as well as the magistrates, the prosecutors and members of the public who make use of those courts. In addition, we do supply security, when needed, to presiding officers. Certainly, all of those services would be applicable to the courts that I have referred to in my initial answer.
If the member wishes to receive more detail, then a specific question could be posed so as to enable us to reply in the same detailed manner as to the original question.
Chair, I hope you will bear with me. My other question is on the other pages which still have to be read by the Deputy Minister. Can you give him a chance to finish?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau) Is it a supplementary question or is it another question?
The supplementary question is covered in the pages that the Deputy Minister has not yet read. [Laughter.] Can you just give him a chance to finish?
Just put the supplementary question.
It hinges on the programme that the Minister has embarked on with regard to a rural outlay for ordinary people to access justice - the establishment of those courts. I think the Deputy Minister was just getting to the answer.
What is a supplementary question?
A supplementary question is the question that explains further what the Deputy Minister has imparted. I am requesting the Deputy Minister to explain the extent to which the department is unfolding delivery in the rural areas for ordinary people to access justice.
I understand what the member means. What the member is asking about is the use of indigenous languages in court as a means to enhance access. In that regard, the department has furthermore embarked on a pilot project with the use of indigenous languages at a number of courts. This has been progressively expanded to other courts in various provinces. The number of courts where indigenous languages are used has increased to 31 in all nine provinces, catering for nine indigenous languages.
Lastly, I wish to inform the hon member that the criminal justice system review is part and parcel of the task set by the present government to establish a transformed, integrated, modernised, properly resourced and well-managed justice system. This criminal justice system review will therefore also assist to provide a court system that will deliver faster and easier resolution of cases, countrywide, including in rural areas. A number of protocols or guidelines that will improve the performance of courts have received attention in terms of the criminal justice system review.
Also, the case backlog reduction project, aimed at reducing the backlog in cases in regional courts, is continuing. Currently, 46 additional backlog regional courts are in place in areas where there are high backlog numbers, including backlogs from rural areas. In total, 18 271 cases were finalised and removed from court rolls between November 2006 and the end of December 2009.
Chairperson, on a point of order: I want to propose that the Deputy Minister table his response because I can see that it is a Bible. We are going to sit here until eight o'clock. [Interjections.]
I think you are out of order. There was a supplementary question. All I asked the Deputy Minister was to check whether he understood the supplementary question. He said that he understands the supplementary question. I have given him the opportunity to respond to that question. If his time expires, I will indicate to him that his time has expired on responding to the supplementary question. In terms of procedure, he does have the right to do that. You are out of order.
The backlog reduction interventions in regional courts have succeeded in bringing down the total backlog percentage from 43% in 2006 to 29% at the end of December 2009.
Let me conclude by saying that one of the very important areas - areas I would appeal to all members present to assist us with - is the expansion of small claims courts. Small claims courts are mechanisms that are very effective in making possible cheap and fast accessible justice to people. We have established 28 small claims courts in rural areas in the past two years. We would appeal to you to approach, in your constituencies, legal practitioners and to ask them to volunteer to serve as commissioners in these small claims courts. I thank you.
Chairperson, my question is on the issue of safety and access to justice. Deputy Minister, in the Western Cape, particularly, people are killed on the premises of the court. In November last year in Atlantis, a person was gunned down. In the Mitchells Plain court, history speaks for itself.
On the issue of access, we understand that people must have access to justice, but the safety of innocent people in society can't be compromised. In a court in Langebaan in the multipurpose centre, court procedures are held without any security backup for the public. Close contact is being made.
If it is a new question and the Deputy Minister is not prepared to answer it now, I will understand.
In a court in Vredenburg, people who came with witnesses had to stand outside in the rain in long queues. The services rendered there are unacceptable. That is why you find situations where people are not prepared to come and bear witness because of the kind of services which are rendered at that court in Vredenburg. Thank you.
Chairperson, I just want to reiterate that we will be glad to come back to this House to deal comprehensively with the issue of security at our courts. It is a matter that we take very seriously and on which there is a range of measures in place. If the members want details, we can come back and provide that.
We should not confuse the question of access to justice which deals, firstly, with the location of courts; secondly, with the accessibility of the procedure in those courts; thirdly, with the accessibility of language; and fourthly, also with the very important issue of financial accessibility of our courts. The issue that the member raises of physical entrance - coming in and out of courts - is something else. When we talk about access to justice we don't mean doors should be open for any criminal to come in with whatever firearms. That is something else which we can engage on.
The hon member cited the example of the Vredenburg Magistrate's Court and I am aware of that situation. I paid a visit to that court at the end of last year. The issue of the lack of shade and shelter for those who are waiting for their matters to be heard or to testify is something that we took note of. We raised it with the regional head of the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development who is attending to that matter, either by rechanneling funds within the department or by approaching members of the community and the business community to help put up a shelter. Thank you.
Consequences of establishment of constitutional state on use of lethal force
7. Mr M W Makhubela (Cope) asked the Minister of Police:
Whether the consequences of the establishment of a constitutional state placed a greater restriction on the use of lethal force as noted by the former Chief Justice P Chaskalson in his judgment in certain cases (details furnished); if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, how was this conclusion reached?