Hon Speaker, I will consider the remaining 154 applications for pardon at the time that I consider the other applications made in terms of the special dispensation process. This will be done once effect is given to the decision of the Constitutional Court in the matter of Ryan Albutt and Others v the President and Others. The applicants will be informed of my decision in due course.
The number of applicants is, of course, very long. The party-political affiliations have been categorised as follows: ANC, 53; Afrikaanse Weerstandsbeweging, 13; Azapo, 2; Bophuthatswana Defence Force, 2; Civic Association, 1; Former South African Police, 5; FF Plus, 3; IFP, 21; PAC, 34; Simunye in Christ Organisation, 1; UDM, 11; and those not affiliated, 3. A more detailed list is available, but may be too lengthy a response for this oral answer. However, the balance is as I have put here.
The majority of the prisoners who have applied are ANC members, and all others are small numbers. Surely, the ANC should be making more noise and asking more questions on this question, but I think the ANC understands the procedure. [Applause.]
Somlomo, ngiyabonga mhlonishwa uMongameli ngezinombolo lezi onginike zona. Bengicela ukusho mhlonishwa uMongameli ukuthi lolu daba unguMongameli wesine siluxoxa. Ngeke siluyeke futhi siyoqhubeka ngokuluxoxa luze lufike ekugcineni. Ukuthi uKhongolose uyathanda ababo bahlale ngaphakathi noma abathandi, okwabo labo. [Uhleko.]
Okumqoka yikuthi siyafisa engathi umhlonishwa uMongameli angashesha afikelele esinqumeni salaba bantu, ngoba ngeke kwakuhle ukuthi abantu badonse izikhathi ezide, behleli laphaya ezindlini ezimnyama, ekugcineni bese kuthiwa baxolelwe nguMongameli kanti bese vese bezophuma ngakusasa. Lokho kungeke kwaba yigama elihle, okokuqala lokho.
Okwesibili, ngicosha ithuba lokuthokoza mina ukuthi kukhona nalaba okuthiwa usimunye. Angimazi usimunye kodwa angifuni ukubakhulumela ngoba banenhlanhla yokuthi bakucoshe lokho. Bengifisa Mongameli ukuthi lezicelo zonke zingenziwa masishane ukuze abantu bangagugeli emajele, nalaba abafanele ukuthi bathathe, bathathe besebancane, bangaze befele khona. Ngiyathokoza. [Uhleko.]
UMONGAMELI WERIPHABHULIKHI YASENINGIZIMU AFRIKA: Ngiyazibongela Somlomo, lungu elihloniphekile lesishayamthetho, Gatsheni, ngiyakuzwa baba kodwa engifisa nje ukuthi ngikuqaqambise kakhulu ukuthi akubambezele uMongameli. Njengoba wazi ukuthi lwathi lolu daba luphethwe, kwase kubakhona abaluthathayo balusa enkantolo.olwalunesibalo esithile salabo abenze izicelo.
Uma-ke udaba seluphambi kwezinkantolo awukwazi ukululokotha noma ngabe unguMongameli. Kufanele ukuthi ume, ulindele inkantolo ize ikhiphe isahlulelo, futhi-ke le nkantolo ebiphethe lolu daba inkantolo okuyiyona enkulu kunazo zonke yomthethosisekelo. Inkantolo yasikhipha isinqumo. Ithe seyisikhiphile, laba abakhuluma lolu daba, abafisa ukuthi lwenzeke ngoba inkantolo ithe labo abathintekile maqondana nokuthi isihlobo zalaba abangaphakathi abenze izicelo, nalabo ikakhulu okuyibona abalahlekelwa abantu babo, kufanele ukuba babe nezwi lokuthi bathini bona. Baphume laba bantu na noma bangaphumi, kusho inkantolo.
Ngithe sengilungiselela ukuthi ngiyakwenza-ke lokho njengokuqondiswa yinkantolo, kwase kuthi laba ababizwa ngokuthi izinhlangano ezingekho ngaphansi kukahulumeni, zafisa ukuthi nazo zafisa ukuthi ulwazi noma imiqulu equkethwe imininingwane zafisa ukuyibona nazo mathupha. Nazo lolu daba zaludlulisela enkantolo ukuthi zifisa ukulubona. Yilokho okulibazisile Gatsheni, ukuba kuyangathi ngabe izinqumo kade sizithathile ngoba nathi sifisa ukuthi umthetho uma uthi asenze into, siyenze. Singaphikisani nomthetho kodwa nalabo abafisa ukuthi umthetho usetshenziswe, bathathe amanyathelo athile athinta umthetho. Kuthiwa-ke into uma isemthethweni awukwazi ukuyisukela nje, ungaboshwa nokuboshwa. Abafundile bayaye bathi udaba olubucayi olusezithebeni zenkantolo. Ngiyabonga Somlomo. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Mr V B NDLOVU: Speaker, I thank you, hon President for the numbers you gave me. I would like to state, hon President, that you are the fourth president with whom I am raising this issue. We are not going to give up; we will continue raising it until it is concluded. Whether or not the ANC wants their people to remain incarcerated is their business. [Laughter.]
What is important is that we wish for the President to quickly reach a decision with regard to these people, because it won't be good for people to serve long sentences, locked up in dark cells, and eventually it will be said the President pardoned them whereas they were about to be released. That won't be right; that is the first thing.
Secondly, I want to take this opportunity to appreciate that there are those who are said to be single. I don't know any person who is single, but I don't want to speak on their behalf because they are lucky to be like that. I just wish, hon President, that these applications could be processed quickly so that people do not reach old age inside the prison. And also allow those who deserve to get married to do so while they are still of good age, rather than letting them die in prison. I thank you. [Laughter.]]
I thank you, hon Speaker. Hon member of the National Assembly, Gatsheni, I hear what you are saying but I want to clarify that it is not the President who is delaying the matter. As you know, while this matter was being discussed, some people took it to court. A specific number of people applied.
When the matter is before the court, you cannot deal with it even if you are the President. You must wait for the court to decide, and this matter was sent to the highest court in the land, the Constitutional Court. The court decided. After the court had decided, those who talk about this matter did not want the court's ruling to be implemented, that being that those who are affected by the matter, especially those who lost their relatives, must have a say in the matter. They had to indicate whether the prisoners should be released or not, as per the court's decision.
As I was about to do what was directed by the court, the NGOs indicated that they wanted to see documents with information. They too took the matter to court. That is what caused the delay, Gatsheni - if it were up to us, we would have decided on the matter a long time ago because we want to obey the law when it orders us to do something. That's what we do. We don't want to work against the law, and then have some people take legal steps. It is said that when the matter is before the court, you can't even start to deal with it because you could be imprisoned. The educated ones say that when the matter is before the court of law, it is very critical. I thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Hon President, we commend the disclosure of the political affiliation done here today in reply to that question. We also commend the fact that you have invited the victims of persons applying for pardon, as required in terms of the Albutt judgment. We wish, however, to raise a more difficult question of disclosure, and it is an associated question of disclosure.
The political pardon process was presented as the unfinished business of the TRC, but it is being perceived as an unfinished business of political parties. How will the hon President satisfy himself that the convicted criminals recommended by the Presidential Reference Group were indeed politically motivated to commit serial murder, theft, bank robbery and bombing?
When the reference group had its terms of reference changed on 6 February in 2008 to relieve the political parties of any obligation to confirm factual allegations made by the pardon applicants, did the former Director- General of the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development, in addition, tell the reference group that it was not necessary for applicants to identify those who gave commands? The question is important because political motivation and commands are really the only thing that separates common crime from offences pardonable under this post-TRC process.
Therefore, my question is: How will the hon President satisfy himself and, secondly, will he give reasons in due course in the same spirit of disclosure? Will he give reasons for each decision to pardon, including demonstrable motivation on the part of the applicant, to avoid the arbitrary granting of what otherwise becomes a politically motivated pardon and which then brings justice into disrepute since all of these people are in prison after four judicial processes?
Hon speaker, the reference group, I think, was very important for the very reason that it was important for political parties at least to confirm whether they knew the applicant. Otherwise anyone could have made a claim and yet it could have been just an ordinary criminal case.
I have dealt with some of the cases and I have paid specific attention to that issue. I must say that in a number of cases I have dealt with, I have found very vague evidence; at times no evidence at all. At times it looked like somebody was just claiming.
In some cases, there has been very strong evidence. This has been available, so I don't think at the moment there is even a problem in finding out, because the applicant will actually explain that he belongs to a particular organisation and, therefore, it is easy to check with that organisation, regardless of a decision taken by somebody that you should not do it. It is more logical to do it; otherwise how do you determine the facts?
This is what I have been doing in my method of dealing with this matter, and I have taken a number of decisions on the basis of this very issue. So, at the moment I don't think there is any difficulty in handling that one. I have found quite a lot of them; it is very difficult to prove that this was a political somebody. In fact, in some cases, even the parties were not able to say, "Yes, this was a card-carrying member of our organisation". So, at the moment that has not become a difficulty and I am sure even that decision that was taken - I think - was not a decision taken by a court. As you have said, it was a decision taken by a bureaucrat in terms of just working. I don't think it's something that binds me from taking a decision. So, be happy with that. Thank you.
Mhlonishwa Somlomo, Mongameli siyabonga incazelo yakho isiza kakhulu emphakathini ngoba abantu soloku bayabuza ngalezi zindaba.
Engifuna ukulandela ngako Mongameli yiloku ukuthi lawa magama ayi-149 ngabe ngamagama lawa ithiba elibhekelela ukuxolelwa elawaveza ngakuMongameli yathi ibona ukuthi laba abanikezwe ushwele wezepolitiki. Loko ngikubuza ngoba sebebonke cishe abafaka izicelo bafikela cishe eziyi-2000.
Okunye futhi okwenza ukuthi ngibuze ngaloku, lawa magama ithimba elibhekelela ukuxolelwa elawaveza ngaphambili lancoma, kwabanzima, kwabanamagama asala ngaphandle ngoba kungekho ukuvumelana ethimbeni, kwashuba impela bephikisana. Umbuzo wokuqala lowo. Okwesibili umbuzo Mongameli, umayelana nesikubone kwenzeka eVulindlela enkundleni yezemidlalo, lapho bekuhlangene khona esakubona ukuthi cishe kufana nendlela yokushanela amabala, ukuthi mhlawumbe uma sekukhishwa abantu bebe beshayisana ngamakhanda ngezikhathi zepolitiki, kutholakale ukuthi la emphakathini sebeyamukeleka.
Kodwa Mongameli kukhona abasala ngaphandle abazange bawuhambele umcimbi waseVulindlela bathi kukhona okusalenga. Manje umbuzo uthi ngabe uMongameli uyokwenza yini ukuthi uma kuhlanganiswa imiphakathi kanjena ikakhulukazi khona kwelikaMthaniya kungabi abasalela ngaphandle kube Mongameli sakubona uphumelela wenza ukuthula koBurundi abantu baxhawulana ? AbakwaMthaniya bazakuxhawulana.yini bona ekugcineni? [Isikhathi Siphelile][Ihlombe.]
UMONGAMELI WERIPHABHULIKHI YASENINGIZIMU AFRIKA: Somlomo, lungu elihloniphekile lesishayamthetho, ngiyabonga umbuzo wakho. Wonke lamagama esikhuluma ngawo ayilesibalo alethwa yithimba elibhekelela ukuxolelwa. Kusho ukuthi lawa amanye asala uma senza amanye - maningi esawenza njengoba kade ngenza isibonelo nje la ukuthi kunezinqumo esengazithatha kwamaningi. Asala lawa ngenxa yokuba kwabakhona imibandela ethile - ngakho yiwo wonke.
Angiwutholanga umbiko othi kukhona amagama asala ngaphandle, ngoba ithimba elibhekelela ukuxolelwa alishongo ukuthi liletha lawa nje kukhona eliphikisane ngawo kwaze kwasekugcineni langavumelani. Ngathatha lokho osekuphambi kwami ngasebenzela phezu kwako.
Maqondana nodaba lwaseVulindlela olulanda ngoba ubeka ukuthi kuyekufuneke ukuthi abantu bathelelane amanzi uma kuthiwa kukhona uxolo. Isenzo leso esenziwe abantu baseVulindlela abazisukumela phansi ngoba udlame olwalukhona lwaluyizinhlobo ezahlukahlukene. Kwakukhona ukulwa kwezigodi, kukhona nokulwa ngokwezepolitiki. Kwasukuma izinsizwa ezasukunyiswa laphaya ngoba ngangikhona ngaleli langa, okuyizona ezisungule ukuthi akuxoxwe, kube khona ukuzwana.
Kanti futhi ngenkathi kwindaba kwashiwo ukuthi bakhona abasasele ngaphandle. Lokho phela kusho ukuthi kuwumsebenzi wethu sonke ukuthi makusekhona okulengayo, sikwehlise emqadini sikubeke phansi, sikhulume ngakho ukuze wonke umuntu abe noxolo, kube khona uxolo phakathi kwabantu. Ngicabanga ukuthi isenzo saseVulindlela sibeyisenzo esihle, engicabanga ukuthi siyakhona ukuthi kuyoze kuxoxwe futhi abantu baze baphelele. Phela isiZulu sithi:"Impandla iqala ngenhlonhlo." [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follow.)
[Mr J B SIBANYONI: Hon Speaker, hon President, we thank you for your explanation, which will help the public a lot because people always ask about these matters.
What I want to do proceed to do is to find out if these 149 names are the names that were submitted to the President by the presidential pardon committee members to be considered for pardoning. I ask this question because the total number of applicants was almost 2000.
I am also asking this question because when these names were revealed by the committee and recommendations were made, it was tough because some names were omitted because no agreement was prevalent and things got complicated as they disagreed. That is the first question.
The second question, hon President, is about what we saw at the Vulindlela sports grounds. There was a gathering that we could describe as a peace initiative, so that upon their release from jail all these people, who had previously been in conflict politically, would live together harmoniously as a community. But, hon President, some people opted not to honour the gathering, saying there were still outstanding issues. The question is, would you try to ensure that everybody attends these gatherings, especially in KwaZulu-Natal, and that nobody is left out, since we have seen you succeeding in brokering peace deals in Burundi and have also seen people shaking hands? Are the people of KwaZulu-Natal going to eventually shake hands? [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Hon Speaker and hon member of the Assembly, thank you for your question. All the names we are mentioning are the names which were submitted by the pardon committee. This means that insofar as those that were omitted are concerned - there are many that we did like that - I have made an example that there are decisions I have already made regarding some of those. And these were left out because of certain conditions - therefore it is all of them.
I did not get the report indicating that there were names omitted. When the pardon committee brought these names to me they did not indicate that some names had been omitted because they could not reach an agreement regarding those. I took what was placed before me and started working on it.
With regard to the issue of Vulindlela, which you narrated because you want to highlight that it is imperative for the people who had quarrelled before to reconcile in order to reach a peaceful solution, this act was initiated by of the people of Vulindlela, who came up with the idea on their own because the violence there was multifaceted. There was infighting between people from different areas, and a political war. In that gathering there, in my presence, some young men were asked to stand up - the young men who initiated peace talks to bring about harmony.
It was also mentioned in the news that some still have been left out. So, it becomes our task to ensure that if there is any outstanding issue, we must tackle that to bring about peace for everyone, and peace among people in general. I think what happened in Vulindlela was a good act, which I think we are going to eventually talk about and everybody will be present. IsiZulu says it well: "There are small beginnings to big things." [Applause.]]
Particulars regarding improved service delivery to be brought about by changes to Cabinet
21. Mr P J Groenewald (FF Plus) asked the President of the Republic:
With reference to his statement on 31 October 2010 that he has changed his Cabinet in order to ensure improved service delivery and strengthen existing Ministries, in what way will these changes to his Cabinet bring about improved service delivery?