Thank you very much, Tatana [father]. Wa swi tiva Tatana ... [You know, father ... ]
Excuse me! Excuse me! Minister, take your seat. Hon Watson, I saw you doing this gesture in my direction; can you explain why you did that?
You are very, uh ...
I'm not blind.
Yes, I did do that, but I was just telling Mr Mashile in front of me that he is not the Chair. He was trying to make rulings and I told him that if he wanted to replace you, he should go there and tell you. So I was protecting you, Madam Chair, not waving at you. [Laughter.]
Hon Watson! Hon Watson, don't hide behind that desk.
I kicked the bucket.
Wait, wait, ...
I kicked the bucket, Madam.
Okay. Hon Watson, I respect you very much. You are a senior citizen; you should be exemplary. Thank you very much.
Madam Chair, can I just explain, please? I wasn't hiding. I kicked the bucket. [Interjections.]
Thank you very much, Deputy Chair. Well, Tatana wa swi tiva [you know, father,] if you are able to breed owls in a township, bazakuthi uyathakatha [they will say you are practising witchcraft]! Besides that, you see, owls in an African community are seen as something that is a bit of a problem when you have them. Now, think about when one is breeding them so that they eat pests and rats; that can become a challenge. Yes, the idea is very attractive. It is also environmentally friendly because pesticides won't be used to kill rats. However, it can be very challenging in African and rural areas because when an owl is found to be making a noise at the gate, that is something else.
Therefore, we have not moved in that direction. What is happening is that the pest control systems of municipalities are the ones that are being used. The requirement is that they must link up with the provincial department of health when they deal with these issues. That is what is happening, Tatana, in relation to dealing with the management of rodents. Thank you.
Is there a follow-up question?
Deputy Chair, is the hon Minister saying to this House that it is his view that the control of rodents by the use of owls should not be pursued because of traditional difficulties with that and, if so, does he believe in these traditional difficulties with owls? [Interjections.]
Well, the first thing is that I'm the Minister for Traditional Affairs. As Minister for Traditional Affairs, I cannot say I don't believe in traditional matters. In fact, I'm a believer in traditional matters and I think that is why I was given this position.
Therefore, whatever we do, we must make sure that it doesn't antagonise and alienate the majority of South Africans. In that respect, we must use methods in relation to what we do that are acceptable to all, in general. We believe that the pest control systems are a way to go. They have worked and they must continue to work. We avoid breeding owls. Thank you.
Deputy Chair, this is a comment more than anything else. I think there is a fantastic opportunity here for job creation by the municipalities because they can get people to catch the mice to feed the owls! Thank you. [Laughter.]
Order, order! Hon Worth, do I take that as a follow-up question or is it just a statement?
It is a statement.
Deputy Chair, with regard to the Minister's response to a follow-up question earlier on, I think the implication was that, as Minister for Traditional Affairs, he needs to believe these traditional things. If there is a traditional difficulty, as he said, around having owls as a pest control mechanism, can I ask: If the Minister had a pest problem in his own house, would he then reject the use of owls to tackle those pests in line with his beliefs?
Deputy Chair, the issue here is whether we can say all South Africans must breed owls in order to deal with rodents. That's the question. I'm saying that the majority of South Africans won't favour breeding owls because of the connotations that are associated with owls generally. Therefore, if someone requested me to breed owls to deal with rats, I wouldn't be able to do that myself. [Laughter.] It's something that I don't subscribe to. It can't be done actually; it can't find favour. Therefore, hon Harris, we agree that maybe the next generation can look into this approach. Thank you.
Hon Deputy Chairperson, I am confused, and since we do have the Minister for Traditional Affairs here - well, yes, co-operative governance but it's traditional affairs that is the problem - would the Minister mind informing me of the culture around the owl? What happens when there is an owl, and what's the dislike in the community? Can he tell me the story, please?
Okay, okay, order! A lot of people are now murmuring, "What is it?" Can I ask the Minister to answer?
There is an owl in the House.
Thank you, hon Watson. That I understand very well because there is a funny noise going around here. You said it; I didn't say it.
Deputy Chair, well we are excited to be able to educate the hon member.
Simrhabulise, afumane Umrhabulo ongunombolo-19. [We must educate her, and give her a copy of Umrabulo volume 19.]
With regard to the issue of owls, in an African community an owl is known as something that brings bad luck ...
It's a bad omen.
... and is ill-omened. When you see an owl flying over your house, or at your gate, that is something which is very serious. You must get up and look for a traditional healer to cleanse and deal with the issue. That is the view of the majority of South Africans. That is why I'm saying that whatever we do as government must find resonance with the majority of the people; otherwise, if we don't do that, we will be alienating people who must deal with the issues. That is why I'm saying we must look at that.
Let me give you an example of things that are a challenge to other groups. Some people have suggested to me as a Minister for co-operative governance dealing with local government that the best thing to do - because of the land space not being available - is to cremate our people instead of burying them. When I raised that with people, they turned blue, because to them, the majority, burning a human being is something else because they want to go to the grave and talk to the remains. Therefore, whatever we do, we must be sensitive to the majority of our people. That is why we are raising this owl issue.
You might not believe it, it's your right. South Africa is a democratic country that allows people to practise their beliefs without fear, favour or prejudice. If I believe in it, let me continue. If you don't, let's coexist and understand that there is diversity amongst us. But, irrespective of that, we must remain united as a nation. Thank you. [Applause.]
Thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson. Minister, welcome back from your bed of illness. I'm very happy to see you. Madam, I think that we are now busy with a topic that belongs to the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, SPCA, and not here. The Minister is now being asked to explain about owls, rats and so on. We must consult the SPCA to come and help on this matter!
Hon Bloem, I take it that that was just a statement.
Thank you very much, Madam.
In that case, I'll take the hon Dan.
Deputy Chair, in view of the fact that there are members who are experts in the breeding of owls in the House, I would most certainly volunteer myself to be trained as one of those who would be keen to do business in the use of owls to track down rodents. However, such owls which have been hatched and ...
Hon Montsitsi, is that a follow-up question or a statement because ...
Yes, I'm coming to the question.
Can you get to your question, please?
Madam Deputy Chair, I'm saying that with such expert training and the owls that I shall have hatched, I would most certainly use them in the constituency of hon Harris to track down the rodents there. In my own constituency it would be a little bit difficult for me to run a profitable service. Thank you.
Can we proceed? [Interjections.] Can we proceed?
Updating of Land Use Planning Ordinance, 1985 (Ordinance 15 of 1985) by department
65. Mr M W Makhubela (Cope) asked the Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs:
Whether his department will (a) initiate a move to request all provinces to update the Land Use Planning Ordinance, 1985 (Ordinance 15 of 1985), that predated the coming into force of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Act, Act 108 of 1996, and other statutes since then and (b) make such ordinances into new legislation consistent with the provisions of the Constitution and the new statutes; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?