Thank you very much, hon Deputy Chairperson. The hon Minister of Health has indicated to me that if I am not lucid in my answers he will understand, because it is the fumes that have caused it!
May I thank the hon Chair, as well as the hon Ministers, for allowing me to deal with the matters of education as a priority, given the fact that we have a Council of Education Ministers meeting that has already commenced and which I was chairing. So, I really appreciate the indulgence on the part of the hon Ministers and ask for forgiveness for any inconvenience caused. In that spirit I will try to deal with the matters as swiftly as I can.
Hon Chairperson, with regard to the question asked by the hon member from the ANC in Gauteng, the answer is as follows: Circuit 2 comprises 22 primary schools, four high schools, one school of skills and one special school.
We are informed that the four high schools are situated in Atlantis. Of the 22 primary schools, 12 are situated in the Atlantis area, while 10 primary schools are in the Durbanville rural area. Four of the primary schools in Atlantis accommodate Grade 8 learners as well. To date the district has received no complaints regarding the enrolment of Grade 8 learners in Atlantis.
The provincial department has indicated that it has plans to build 25 new schools, but none in Atlantis, because the four high schools in the area can still accommodate all the learners. The province has a dedicated official in each district who monitors demand and takes appropriate steps to accommodate any increase in demand. The official reports directly to the district directors, who in turn supply the information to the provincial team responsible for planning and infrastructure provisioning.
Hon Chair, I just want the hon House to also note that these are questions pertaining to the province of the Western Cape, and they would be better dealt with in that legislature, particularly with regard to follow-up questions. We rely on the information provided to us by the MEC or the Western Cape department of education. Thank you.
Provision of financial management support, including monitoring, to provincial departments of education, and details regarding provincial departments' usage of budgets
29. Ms D Z Rantho (ANC) asked the Minister of Basic Education:
(1) Whether her department provides any financial management support to provincial departments of education in order to assist with strengthening their (a) financial management, (b) control systems and (c) capacity; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, (i) how often are they provided with financial management support and (ii) how many provinces make use of such support;
(2) whether such support includes monitoring; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;
(3) whether provincial departments use their budgets for their intended purposes; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? CO208E
Hon Deputy Minister, can you continue with the other questions?
Madam Chair, I was just waiting for you to direct me to do so. The next question was asked by the hon D Z Rantho in relation to the financial management support received from the national department.
The answer to that is yes, the Department of Basic Education, through the Directorate: Provincial Budget Monitoring and Support, provides financial management support to provincial education departments to assist with the strengthening of the financial management and control systems and the capacity that exist within the province. Three meetings are conducted with provincial education departments in each financial year. All the provincial education departments use these services without exception.
Secondly, yes, the department monitors the financial management, budget allocation in the MTEF period, expenditure performance, challenges facing the provincial education departments relating to the utilisation of the budget, and audit outcomes. Provincial education departments are offered assistance and advice on identified challenges.
Thirdly, yes, the provinces use the budgets as intended; however, there are areas where budgets are not used as intended due to cost pressures, for example in the case of compensation of employees. There are also other instances, for example where there has been recapitalisation of technical schools, and provinces have not been forthcoming in the utilisation of those budgets. These are drawn to the attention of the MECs in the Council of Education Ministers' meetings, one of which is taking place today. I thank you, hon Chair.
Deputy Minister, did you say the follow-up questions would be answered by the Minister herself, or are you able to take the follow-ups?
No, I am able to take follow-up questions. It was just with regard to the first one in relation to the Atlantis matter that I said that I was relying solely on information provided to me by the Western Cape department of education.
Chairperson, I don't have any follow-up question.
Thank you. With your permission, hon Chair, I will proceed to the next question. That question was asked by the hon T B Beyleveldt from the DA, Western Cape.
Hon Surty, can you just hold on?
Thank you, hon Deputy Chairperson. As a follow-up to the first and second questions, let me say that the impression that has been created is that the Western Cape is a province that is performing very, very well. It is doing its best to spend its budget, and there is quality, value for money, in terms of the DA's understanding of expenditure. Now in the light of this situation, can we comfortably say that the department in the province is doing exactly what it is supposed to do for the benefit of the poor communities in the Western Cape?
Hon Chairperson, I do not think it's correct to put a question where an opinion has to be expressed by a Minister who represents the interests of all nine provinces.
What I can say is that with regard to practice itself, there are some extremely good practices in the Western Cape and there are some challenges that it faces, like any other provincial department. As the national department we look at the provinces and take up and share best practices and utilise the best practices that exist amongst the provinces.
So, I certainly do not want to stand here in judgement of any of the provinces. I want to indicate, however, that as a system within the Department of Basic Education, we work very collaboratively and co- operatively with all provinces, including the Western Cape. Thank you.
Hon Deputy Chairperson, I appreciate the response from the Deputy Minister. However, there are concurrent powers in education, and you are saying you have the power to advise this same Western Cape province in regard to infrastructure.
The information that I have submitted is current as of February, and I was given this information by the communities and the labour organisations there. Because they believed I represented the interests of the provinces and in a previous life I belonged to the SA Democratic Teachers' Union, Sadtu, they asked me to raise these things. They are there.
So, what I ask the Minister to do, as they are saying that they have plans to build schools, is to prioritise the building of those schools. There is a complaint. Could the department go there and hold izimbizo? They will hear this coming from the people, demanding or wanting more schools.
The Department of Basic Education should also engage with other departments, such as the Department of Social Development. The reason for that is that when those learners exit Grade 7 they don't get accepted because the schools are full - these four high schools are full already. So they become dropouts and they smoke drugs such as nyaope, tik and all those things. This is not of their own will, so we appeal, Minister, that you do not just rely on information given, but you also visit them as part of your oversight role. Thank you.
Thank you very much. The concern of the hon member is indeed noted and, as indicated, if the responses that have been provided to me by the department are indeed not correct, we are more than happy to intervene on behalf of the hon member in relation to the matter that has been raised. We certainly will take into account what has been raised and engage with the MEC of the province. Thank you very much.
Chair, my question is in addition to hon Mncube's question, but I won't repeat what she has said. I also want to know whether the department is aware that those learners are also completely excluded from your previously white schools - which are still white anyway - because they happen to come from poor areas. I don't mean schools in Cape Town, but I mean schools within that district, if you call them districts. This is because they smoke, they do this and that and, of course, because of their social backgrounds as well. I don't think that should be a reason for exclusion.
Chairperson, indeed the admission policy with regard to basic education is that no learner should be excluded on the basis of class, culture, religion or race. In other words, there cannot be any unfair discrimination against a learner. If there is any evidence of exclusion on the basis of class or cultural identity, then it must be brought to the attention of the Ministry and, I can assure you, irrespective of where it occurs, whether it is in Atlantis or anywhere else, we will take the necessary steps to address that.
Hon Minister, I am aware of the fact that the government, the ruling party, is very sensitive about the achievements of the Western Cape. I would like to ask you this: Are you taking strong measures to try to achieve the same results, with the same restrictions, in other provinces like the Eastern Cape, where they haven't spent R780 ... [Interjections.] My question is: What action are you going to take to get other provinces on the same level as the Western Cape? [Interjections.]
Hon Chairperson, the hon member ...
Order! Will the hon Minister please take his seat? Hon member, I thought this was a follow-up question, but unfortunately it has come out as a new question. So, in that case I cut it there.
Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. However, perhaps in the spirit of my earlier response, it is important for me to share with the House, and I think I was being as fair as possible.
Hon Minister, can I disturb you again? I will see the hon Mr Faber instead.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to know the following. It seems like hon Beyleveldt did ask a follow-up question. I just want to know if it is ...
Hon member, it was a new question. Thank you.
Chairperson, I think, whilst we are busy with questions, members must understand that there can only be four follow- up questions, not more than that. So we must count as we speak.
Thank you. The hon Deputy Minister may proceed.
Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. I would like to indicate to you that I tried to be as fair in my response as possible. However, if we are going to use performance as a yardstick, we have to take into account the basis of the performance. In last year's matric examinations Gauteng surpassed the Western Cape in terms of performance, and of those amongst the nine provinces that performed better than the previous year, the Western Cape was the worst. That is the reality; there is empirical evidence for it.
So I am not sitting out here in judgement of the Western Cape, but I am saying that there are other provinces that have done extremely well under very difficult circumstances. Let us not sit here in judgement of a province; let us rather say that education is our business, irrespective of where it occurs. The learner in each and every school belongs to us, not on the basis of political affiliation or the domination of a province by a particular political party.
Details regarding special measures in place to address assaults on learners and educators during school hours in 2010
36. Mr T B Beyleveldt (DA) asked the Minister of Basic Education:
(1) How many (a) learners and (b) educators were assaulted during school hours in 2010;
(2) whether any special measures are in place to address these assaults at schools; if not, why not; if so, (a) what special measures and (b) what are the further relevant details?