Hon Speaker and hon members, unintentionally, the time allocated for the discussion of this Bill this afternoon belies the importance of its object, because the Military Veterans Bill we are discussing this afternoon reminds us that among us in our communities there are South Africans who, during the dark days of conflict in this country, were steadfast in the belief that the ultimate honour under those circumstances was to serve their country.
As a former Member of Parliament, James Ngculu, eloquently described them in his newly published book The Honour to Serve, they are individuals who believed that "honour is stronger than death" and also that, when cornered, always remember "to keep the last bullet for yourself". On all sides, all of them, as soldiers, subscribed to the dictum that absolute submission to the will of the commander was an honourable thing.
Today, because of the way they were moulded, these patriots, in particular those from yesterday's liberation armies, have been shunted to the margins of our society by those they fought to free. As Oliver Reginald Tambo, the leader of the largest guerrilla organisation in the resistance to apartheid, said: In building up our own popular army we aim therefore not only at the overthrow of the fascist regime, we aim also at building up a politically conscious and revolutionary army, conscious of its popular origin, unwavering in its democratic functions and guided by our revolutionary orientation.
Conscious of the importance of the change they fought for and the sacrifice involved, many military veterans from the liberation armies have, with humility, resigned themselves to living wretched lives to give freedom a chance.
Again, as James Ngculu explains:
These were not soldiers of fortune. None were paid a salary at the end of the month, because they were all volunteer fighters committed to the struggle for justice and freedom. They were guerrillas or what Che Guevara defined as social reformers who take up arms in response to the wishes of the masses.
The purpose of the Military Veterans Bill is to recognise and honour military veterans in life and memorialise them in death for their sacrifices on behalf of the nation. It seeks to ensure a smooth and seamless transition for military veterans from active military service to civilian life. It aims to restore the capability of military veterans with disabilities to the greatest extent possible, and to improve their quality of life and that of their dependants. The Bill envisages a system of benefits and services to military veterans, the cumulative effect of which will ensure that military veterans augment our national work force broadly and contribute to the prosperity and development of the country. Lastly, the policy espoused by the Bill recognises that military veterans are a unique resource for nation-building and reconciliation which has been underutilised.
This intervention by government is so vital to the future and stability of this country that we must be forgiven if our frankness takes precedence over etiquette. This issue need not be surrounded by a host of technicalities and complicated reasoning, the way some career analysts and obstructionist politicians are tempted to view it. As we speak, there are destitute former freedom fighters who, we are told, sleep in public places such as Johannesburg Park Station, without food or the comfort of a place they can call their home.
The Bill is not the first piece of legislation to deal with military veterans in government, nor is it the first time government has acknowledged the need to support military veterans. The need to consider supporting the social reintegration of demobilised soldiers back into communities was raised as early as November 1993 - even before the integration process commenced - by the former Chief of the South African Defence Force, Gen Meiring, at an Institute for Defence Policy conference, when he said:
There are a large number of individuals who have received military training of some sort and who will not be accommodated in the South African Army. To leave these individuals jobless in the streets is to invite trouble. An idea is to establish a services brigade to accommodate and train them.
Indeed, the Service Corps was established in January 1995, following the establishment of the South African National Defence Force in 1994. In 1999, the Department of Defence introduced legislation, namely the Military Veterans' Affairs Act, to cater for military veterans.
The reason we are piloting new legislation through Parliament today is that, courageous as the interventions referred to above were, they all failed because they were inadequate, piecemeal and not holistically conceived. As a result, support for military veterans remained ad hoc, discretionary and uneven across all three spheres of government.
The Bill before the House seeks to improve the definition of beneficiaries to make it inclusive and in line with the Constitution. Secondly, it comprehensively spells out the support and benefits to military veterans and the care due to their dependants which government commits itself to providing. Lastly, it stipulates the institutions to be established in order to realise this policy. The Bill before the House has benefited from extensive case-study work done of countries where there is support for military veterans in government. In this regard, work was done on both developing and developed countries, including familiarisation visits to those countries which evince best practice. Still and all, the final product was crafted as a home-grown instrument to deal with concrete conditions confronting us here at home, with our specific historical background and national imperatives.
In this respect, we wish to point out that the policy contained in this Bill seeks to address the challenge of military veterans within the national framework of care for the indigent within the broad antipoverty strategy, socially and economically. The policy enunciated in the Bill seeks to deal with the needs of military veterans as an investment towards the broader human resource needs of the country, rather than as a pure welfare programme.
The policy seeks to protect government policy on military veterans from being donor-driven, while allowing for partnerships. The Bill provides approaches to the affairs of military veterans today with the future challenges of military veterans in mind.
On behalf of the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans, it behoves me to express sincere appreciation for the sterling work done by members of the portfolio committee for the diligence and sensitivity with which they have gone about their deliberations on this Bill. We have noted some of the important views shared with the committee by members of the public and stakeholders. These include the fairly popular sentiment that other military veterans and stalwarts of the struggle against apartheid, besides those who were in military organisations, be considered for similar support.
I cannot conclude my remarks in this debate without, once again, conveying from the Ministry a word of appreciation to the architects of this policy, the Ministerial Task Team on Military Veterans, for a job well done.
Hon Speaker, hon Ministers, hon Members of Parliament, guests in the gallery, I greet you. Malibongwe! [Let it be praised!]
HON MEMBERS: Igama lamakhosikazi! [The name of women!]
Hon Speaker, traditionally August is Women's Month, and it is indeed fitting that we are having the Second Reading debate on the Military Veterans Bill at this juncture in this Chamber. In a way, it is a timely reminder of the integral role that women played in the liberation of our country, especially those who donned uniforms and took up arms to fight for what they believed in. For their sacrifices and unselfishness we salute them and express the confidence that they will continue to be a shining light as we forge our way ahead to address the plight of our military veterans who have served us so courageously.
The Minister established a ministerial task team on military veterans with a mandate to develop policy recommendations; to recommend benefits and institutional structures; and to advise on the appropriateness, or otherwise, of the current legislation regarding military veterans in South Africa. This culminated in a Military Veterans Bill that will begin to address the plight of the military veterans in a holistic, fair and equitable manner.
To kick off this process, we had to get clarity on who qualified as a military veteran. Various opinions were raised regarding who should and who should not qualify as military veterans. Suffice to say, the definition of a military veteran, as accepted by the Portfolio Committee on Defence and Military Veterans, is one that is indeed inclusive, as originally proposed by the task team, with a provision that applicants will be subjected to a means test.
One of the major issues that the Bill addresses are the benefits to be awarded to military veterans as outlined in clause 5. A means test will apply and each case will be treated on an individual basis to determine the exact needs of a specific military veteran as well as those who qualify as dependants of military veterans. These issues are important as there are physical and capacity boundaries that we have to be cognisant of. Clause 6 outlines the various powers and duties of the Department of Defence and Military Veterans and these range from providing administrative services, collecting and keeping data and information to negotiating with the departments and NGOs to act as agents for the department.
The importance of outlining the powers and duties of the department lies in the fact that it will be more of a co-ordinating structure for the delivery of some of the benefits, as opposed to being the actual delivery agency for all of the benefits. It will therefore require skilful co-ordination and co- operation between these different agencies to ensure that the various benefits will be delivered in a timeous and efficient manner.
The Advisory Council on Military Veterans will be established to advise the Minister on any matter relating to the policies applicable to military veterans. This body will consequently play an essential role to ensure that the Department of Defence and Military Veterans caters for the needs of military veterans in an expeditious and effective fashion.
The appeal board will consider appeals lodged by a military veteran against decisions taken by an official which adversely affect the right of that military veteran. It will also be able to confirm, set aside or vary a decision in terms of the Act. The appeal board will therefore assist in the proper and effective functioning of the Department of Defence and Military Veterans as well as the other related departments and agencies.
In conclusion, the processing of the Military Veterans Bill by the Portfolio Committee on Defence and Military Veterans was marked by the acceptance by all political parties that the plight of our military veterans needed to be addressed in a structured and holistic manner. The various clauses were appropriately interrogated, with the result that the committee is satisfied that the eventual Act will adequately address the purpose of the Bill as proposed by the task team.
It is my belief that the Act will go a long way to attend to the needs of our military veterans in a manner befitting their sacrifices and the sacrifices that their dependants have made for this country. The ANC supports the Bill. [Applause.]
Speaker, a young soldier returning home to South Africa after the Second World War received a message from the Union Defence Force, part of which reads as follows:
The aftermath of war and the process of readjustment are likely to produce many difficulties and problems. Patience and tolerance will be needed, and the demands upon your courage and spirit of service will remain as great as ever.
This message captures the dignity, respect and care that military veterans should receive in the aftermath of war. But the message also anticipates the many difficulties and problems that military veterans experience in the aftermath of war.
The objective of the Military Veterans Bill is to provide military veterans and their dependants with a wide range of benefits, including pensions, health care and housing, provided, of course, that they pass a means test. We must acknowledge that there are many military veterans, from all military organisations, who are in need. We must and we do have a duty to care for all our military veterans in need, and for that reason we support the objective of the Military Veterans Bill.
The processing of the Military Veterans Bill has been a complete shambles from start to finish. The Deputy Minister, who was responsible for driving the Military Veterans Bill, has been a political disaster. Some months ago, he had a bandage around his arm. But what he really needs is not a bandage around his arm, but a bandage around his mouth. [Interjections.] His public statements that former conscripts who served in the SA Defence Force are not military veterans and therefore not entitled to apply for benefits are simply wrong.
The definition of a "military veteran" is clear. A military veteran includes any South African citizen who rendered military service to any military organisation. [Interjections.] The fact is that former conscripts are military veterans and entitled to benefits, provided they pass a means test. Of course, the reality is that few former conscripts will pass the means test and therefore be eligible to receive benefits. However, they do remain military veterans.
The Deputy Minister must surely recognise that we have a duty to care for all military veterans in need and that his reckless public statements have caused unnecessary division and tension among military veterans. My challenge to the Deputy Minister is that he must do the right thing and tell us that he was wrong and let us all move on.
A Ministerial Task Team on Military Veterans was established to make policy recommendations on military veterans. The task team was soon zooming around the world, costing us a whopping R855 000. Its final report, which some task team members claim never to have seen, was simply not credible and, frankly, a big rip-off. The fact is that members of the task team did not earn the R375 000 in allowances paid to them. My challenge to the task team is this: Do the right thing and give the money back or donate it to military veterans.
The Military Veterans Bill could all too easily become a legislative gateway to massive corruption. There are insufficient legislative safeguards against corruption such as a requirement to prescribe a verification process to determine who is and who is not a military veteran. The Bill also provides for the facilitation of or advice on business opportunities for military veterans. One wonders how long it will be before the Department of Defence and Military Veterans is sucked into a corruption scandal, especially since some military veterans associations are currently being ripped apart by corruption and tender wars. [Interjections.]
The costing of the Military Veterans Bill veered from R7,2 billion through to R6,4 billion and was revised down to R1,6 billion over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, period. However, the final revised costing of R1,6 billion was hidden from the Portfolio Committee on Defence and Military Veterans. The reason for this is that the objectives of the Bill are not aligned with the costing of the Bill.
The Department of Defence and Military Veterans based the costing on incorrect assumptions. They assumed that there are 56 000 military veterans eligible to apply for benefits, when the broad definition of "military veteran" in the Bill means that there may be up to 850 000 military veterans eligible to apply for benefits. The total additional cost of implementing the Military Veterans Bill is therefore likely to be much greater.
We recognise that there are military veterans from all military organisations who are desperate and in need. We also recognise that we have a duty to care for all military veterans who are in need. However, this Parliament is about to pass a Military Veterans Bill that is based on a policy framework that is not credible and has financial implications that are not affordable. We therefore risk creating a gap in expectations between what the military veterans expect and what the Department of Defence and Military Veterans can deliver. And it is only a matter of time before this gap in expectations explodes on the Minister's political doorstep.
We do support all military veterans who are in need, but we do not support the Military Veterans Bill. We urge the Deputy Minister to go back to the drawing board and make the necessary changes so that we can support the Military Veterans Bill. [Applause.]
Mohl Motlat?a Seboledi sa Ngwako, maloko a hlomphegago, bagage?o, re le ba Cope, re a itumela ka Molaokakanywa wa Bahlabani ba Kgale wo. Go rena ba Cope, bahlabani ba kgale e bile ba bohlokwa kudu. Ke dumela gore re mo ka lebaka la bona. Go be go se bonolo, go be go le boima. Se ke nyakago go se bont?ha ke gore re ba hlokomele. Ka 2008 le 2009, ga ke gopole let?at?ikgwedi, go bile le yo mongwe wa bahlabani ba maloba kua Khayelitsha, yo a ilego a ?omi?wa ke banna ba ditekisi, go ba motho wa go thwalwa go dira polao ya sepolotiki, gore a kgone go humana t?helete. Se se ra gore ga re hlokomele ka tshwanelo. Ke dumela gore re ka ema gabotse, ra hlokomela batho ba. Go ya ka mangwalo a makgethwa, pukung ya Baahlodi kgaolo ya bo?upa, go tloga go temana ya mathomo go ya mafelelong, a bont?ha gore ma?ole ke morero wa Modimo. Re le ba Cope, re a itumela ka taba ye. Fela se ke nyakago go se bont?ha ke gore re a ba thekga, re a ba rata, ke bana ba rena. Ba swanet?e gore ba kgone go hwet?a diputselet?o. Seo ke nyakago go se bont?ha seo se sa nkgahlago gareng ga 2008 le 2009, ke gore ke bone go bont?hwa thelebi?eneng ba Mkhonto we Sizwe ba maloba ba re bona ba tla dira gore Kapa Bosubela e seke ya laolega. Ke dumela gore ga se mokgwa o mo kaone. Lena le ba?irelet?i ba rena, re itumi?a ka lena, re a le thekga e bile re a le rata. Go bohlokwa gore le re rateng kamoka ga rena.
Go bolela nnete e tlet?ego, ba bangwe ba bana ba gabo rena ba ?et?e ba ineet?e ka mabjala. Mohl Motlat?a Tona, Mna Thabang Makwetla, go na le felo go gongwe kua magaeng mo re t?wago gona, mo go se nago diradio, dithelebi?ene le dikuranta. Mathata ao bahlabani ba kgale ba lebanego le wona, ga ba tsebe gore ba ka a rarollelwa ke mang goba ba a rarolla ka tsela ya mohuta mang. Ke dumela gore mohlomongwe, kudu dinagamagaeng, diradio, dithelebi?ene le dikuranta di ka re t?wela mohola t?a ba mago?i a rena a go re romela molaet?a.
MaAfrika Borwa, a ke bont?he gore bo Zimbabwe, Namibia, e?ita le dinaga t?e dingwe t?a kua Yuropa, ba swara bahlabani ba bona ka hlompho e bile ba a ba thekga. Bjale, le rena bohle ba Afrika Borwa, a re lekeng gore re hlokomele gore bahlabani ba ba rena re ba fa thekgo e tsenelet?ego gore ba kgone go hwet?a meputso yeo ba e lwet?ego nakong ya go lwela tokologo. Ke nnete gore maitemogelo le tsebo t?a bona di ka re t?wela mohola. Mo go lego bothata goba le ge go eba le mahlo a mahubedu, ke dumela gore ba ka re t?wela mohola ka go re ?irelet?a. Ka gona, go bohlokwa gore bahlabani ba ba rena ba maloba re leke go ba fa thekgo. Bale ba kgale, botatago rena, ge be ba et?wa ntweng, be ba fiwa jase ba bangwe paesekela. E be e se mokgwa o mo kaone. A re ba putseng gore ge ba robet?e, meboya ya bona e robale ka khut?o.
Go na le ba bangwe bao ba hlokofet?ego; basadi le bana ba bona ba a diila. Pot?i?o yaka ke gore a na bana ba rena bao ba hlokofet?ego ba le ntweng, re swanet?e re dire bjang ka bona ka gore ba be ba se ba hwet?e meputso ... [T?hwahlelo.] [Nako e fedile.]. Ke a leboga. (Translation of Sepedi speech follows.)
[Mr L J TOLO: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon members, as Cope members we support the Military Veterans Bill. We believe that the military veterans played a pivotal role and they are the reason we are here today. It was not easy for them and I would like to indicate that we have a duty to care for them. In 2008 and 2009 - I do not remember the exact date - a military veteran in Khayelitsha was hired by taxi men to take part in a politically motivated killing in exchange for money. This indicates that they are not being taken care of. I believe we can take good care of these people. The Word of God, in Judges chapter seven, indicates that the military veterans are part of God's plan.
Cope members appreciate this and we support them, we love them, they are our children. They are entitled to the benefits. Around 2008 and 2009 I saw members of Umkhonto weSizwe on television saying that they wanted to make the Western Cape ungovernable. I believe this is not right at all. You have to protect us, we are proud of you, we support you and we also love you. You too have to love us.
To be honest, some of our brothers have resorted to alcohol. Hon Deputy Minister, Mr Thabang Makwetla, in some of the rural areas we come from, there are no radios, televisions or newspapers. The military veterans do not know who to approach with regard to the challenges they are facing. I believe the radios, televisions and newspapers are the forms of media that can be used to pass on information in rural areas.
Fellow South Africans, let me indicate that Zimbabwe, Namibia and European countries respect and support their veterans. Let us give our fellow patriots the utmost support and make sure that they get the benefits they fought for during their struggle for liberation. I believe that with their experiences and knowledge they can protect us in times of trouble and it is therefore necessary that we support them. Long ago when our fathers came back from the war they were given a coat; some received a bicycle as a token of appreciation. This was not the best way of showing appreciation. Let us provide the military veterans with the benefits they are entitled to, so that they rest in peace when they leave this world.
Some of them have died and their dependants are living in poverty. How are you going to address the issue of those who died during the struggle because they died before they could receive their benefits ... [Interjections.] [Time expired.] Thank you.]
South Africa had several leading figures and role-players during our transition from apartheid to democracy. Some of these role- players included the IFP, Azapo, the PAC, the ANC and many others. Our freedom today belongs to all of us, and it is because of the collective efforts of all of these organisations that we are fortunate to live in a free South Africa today.
It was with this in mind that we welcomed the restructuring of the Department of Defence to include military veterans in 2009. We welcomed the allocation of funds to those who dedicated their lives to the struggle for freedom. The restructuring of this department heralded a new era in which we would finally recognise and honour the selfless contributions made by many fellow patriots in bringing about the realisation of a peaceful, democratic and prosperous South Africa. The IFP welcomed this development as a step towards intensifying our reconciliation and nation-building efforts.
However, today the IFP remains disillusioned, as the proposed Bill has not lived up to its expectations. We continue to lament the exclusion of some groups from accessing the benefits that are rightly due to them.
In a statement to the Portfolio Committee on Defence and Military Veterans on 25 May 2011, the Deputy Minister, Mr Makwetla, argued for the exclusion of many groups of veterans, including former national servicemen and potentially other groups. However, in June of this year, Mr Makwetla said that the Bill was clear in that it was dealing with former soldiers in the former South African Defence Force, liberation movement armies and ex- armies of the former Transkei, Bophuthatswana, Venda and Ciskei, TBVC, states. Mr Makwetla explained that the Bill was very clear about who would be eligible to apply for benefits once the proposed law had been passed.
However, this has not been our experience. For instance, there has been mass confusion as to who is and who is not regarded as a military veteran. It is our understanding that the erstwhile KwaZulu self-protection units, SPUs, as well as the ANC-aligned self-defence Units will be excluded from receiving benefits, as proposed by this Bill.
The men and women who formed part of these SPUs worked diligently for the establishment of conditions that would make a peaceful and negotiated settlement possible. These SPUs are military veterans too, as they were a part of a section of the South African community that was involved in waging and resolving the political conflicts of our past.
In conclusion, I would like to remember my dear friend, Mr Siegfried "Gobogobo" Bhengu. Siegfried passed away recently. He was a former member of the ANC and later the IFP. He was part of the first group of Umkhonto weSizwe, MK, recruits who left the country in the early 60s to receive military training in various countries in Africa as well as Russia. He was in the first detachment of MK that was infiltrated back into the country at the height of apartheid. He was later arrested and spent 10 years on Robben Island with the former President Nelson Mandela, Mr Walter Sisulu, baba [father] Andrew Mlangeni and many others.
The IFP supports this Bill. [Applause.]
Agb Adjunkspeaker, wat hierdie wetsontwerp betref, stel die VF Plus basies twee vereistes. Die eerste is dat as ons van militre veterane praat, word almal ingesluit. Die tweede aspek is of dit bekostigbaar is.
Wat "almal" betref, is die VF Plus tevrede daarmee dat dienspligtiges van die vorige bedeling ook ingesluit word by die definisie van militre veterane. Dit s baie duidelik "enige persoon wat diens gelewer het vir die statutre of nie-statutre magte". Ek dink daar word nou vir die eerste keer ook behoorlik erkenning gegee aan veral die lede van die voormalige Kaapse (Kleurling) Korps wat ook hul diens gelewer het.
Die bekostigbaarheid moet nog bepaal word, nadat die Minister die middeletoets daargestel het. Ons wag vir daardie middeletoets. Ons wil sien wat daardie middeletoets is, want ons weet die begroting van die Weermag is in hierdie stadium onder druk. Die vraag is of ons daardie geld gaan kry.
Ek weet die agb Adjunkminister het 'n flater gemaak met sy uitlating, maar agb Adjunkminister, ek weet dat u verkeerd ingelig was deur sekere amptenare oor die personeelregister en of van die lede op die register is, al dan nie. So, u kan rustig wees. Ons weet die dienspligtiges is ook ingesluit in die definisie. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Deputy Speaker, with regard to this Bill, the FF Plus basically sets two preconditions. The first is that when we talk of military veterans, everyone should be included. The second aspect is whether it is affordable.
Regarding "everyone", the FF Plus is satisfied that the conscripts of the previous dispensation are also included under the definition of military veterans. It clearly states "any South African citizen who rendered military service to any of the military organisations, statutory and nonstatutory". I think there is now also, for the very first time, proper recognition being given particularly to the members of the former Cape (Coloured) Corps, also rendered service.
The affordability must still be determined once the Minister has introduced the means test. We are waiting for that means test. We would like to see what that means test is all about as we are aware that the budget of the Defence Force is presently under pressure. The question is whether we will receive those funds.
I know the Deputy Minister made a blunder with his statement, however, hon Deputy Minister, I know that you were given the incorrect information by certain officials regarding the staff register and whether or not some of the members are listed on the register. So you can rest easy. We know the conscripts are also included in the definition.]
Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Ministers, hon Deputy Ministers, hon members and guests in the gallery ... mandikhahlele kuloo magorha namagorhakazi oMzantsi Afrika athi anikezela ngobomi bawo ngokulwela isizwe. Amanye kuwo aya elubhacweni eshiya ngasemva amakhaya nezihlobo, esiya kulwela le nkululeko siyixhamlayo namhlanje. Amanye kuwo abuya engamathambo enazo nezivubeko; amanye abuya amalungu omzimba engaphelelenga. Siyakhahlela kuloo maqhawe namaqhawekazi ngale nyanga yamakhosikazi. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[... let me praise those South African heroes and heroines who sacrificed their lives fighting for the nation. Some of them went into exile leaving behind their homes and relatives, fighting for the freedom that we benefit from today. Some of them returned in a skeletal state and scarred; some have lost limbs. We praise those heroes and heroines in this Women's Month.]
The Military Veterans Bill has many features in its attempt to bring about a more just and equitable dispensation for our military veterans. One of the features that was debated extensively in the Portfolio Committee on Defence and Military Veterans is benefits. This Bill seeks to set out the benefits available to military veterans and their dependants. Assistance rendered varies according to the subjective circumstances of the veterans concerned. It should be noted that such benefits are provided subject to a needs assessment.
Clause 5 of the Military Veterans Bill outlines 11 benefits that should be awarded to military veterans. These benefits were internationally benchmarked and have also been costed with different options to determine relevance and affordability. The ANC welcomes the compensation for injuries to military veterans who sustained disabling injuries during military activities. Anyone who has been in contact with such members will know what they are going through, especially those who have been left with severe psychological and psychiatric scars. Hence we also appreciated the proposed counselling of and treatment for those who suffer from serious mental illness, post-traumatic stress disorder or related conditions.
The honouring and memorialising of fallen military veterans as well as burial support declare our sense of belonging, our sense of where we come from and our deep-seated belief that we have to pay our respects to those who led us so bravely and relentlessly to the democracy that we enjoy today.
Once more, this is an attempt to honour their sacrifices, to reintegrate them back into society and to restore their quality of life to the greatest extent possible. The Bill requires state departments to take legislative steps to ensure that the objects of this Bill are indeed realised.
This piece of legislation provides for the Minister to ensure that benefits are paid or provided to military veterans. This may be done through the department or by other state organs through service-level agreements with the Ministry, in consultation with the Finance Minister.
In conclusion, the benefits in clause 5 are testimony to the esteem in which we hold our military veterans. The cost of the benefits over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, is reasonable, affordable and justifiable; and we therefore implore all stakeholders to assist us in addressing the plight of our military veterans in a manner that is commensurate with their sacrifices. The ANC supports the Bill.
Deputy Speaker, we as a nation are deeply indebted to our military veterans, statutory or nonstatutory. We must recognise and honour them in life and remember with deep gratitude those who gave their lives for their nation.
It is also very important to ensure a smooth and seamless transition for military veterans from active military service to civilian life. To restore those who suffered disabilities we need to provide comprehensive benefits and services and ensure that veterans contribute to the prosperity and development in the country.
We need look no further than far north to see the destructive role that veterans can play if they are not properly looked after. Let us assist our veterans to contribute to the peace, prosperity, development, reconciliation and nation-building of our country and also assist them to beat swords into ploughshares and spears into pruning hooks.
While the ACDP shares concerns regarding the budgetary impact of this Bill and how the amount of R1,6 billion was arrived at, there can be no doubt that we must look after our military veterans who have served our nation with pride. The ACDP will therefore support this Bill.
Hon Deputy Speaker, the inclusivity of the definition of a military veteran is laudable and I am sure it will be welcomed by many who served in the military on any side. The truth is that when we talk about military veterans who are in dire straits we are not only talking of one side of the fence. The approach in this Bill is indeed fresh and truly represents a break from old thought patterns, where some think that their involvement was more noble because they fought on a certain side considered in some circles to have been noble.
However, there are a concerns that one has to raise. In particular, there is a difference in the amount that has been given by the consultancy Alexander Forbes, which estimated a cost of R65,2 billion. The department has its estimate of R34,6 billion, which is almost half of the former. The question is: Is it the department that has overstated or understated or is it Alexander Forbes that has gone a half beyond?
With this the UCDP supports this Bill 100%. It is long overdue and it will help our people. [Time expired.]
Hon Deputy Speaker, Azapo will support every attempt to improve the lives of our military veterans. We have said before that our freedom did not come on a silver platter. People fought for it and some paid with their lives.
Some of those who were in the trenches, particularly those coming from the nonstatutory forces or liberation movement, are destitute as we speak. They have no access to health care. Some of them suffer from post-traumatic disorders and therefore need urgent medical care.
Some cannot find employment because while some of us were acquiring qualifications, they were out there waging a war of liberation. Therefore they cannot now support their families. Some of them are too old to seek employment and have no pension to fall back on.
Azapo says that the contribution of military veterans cannot be measured in rands and cents and wholeheartedly supports the Military Veterans Bill.
Hon Chairperson, Deputy Minister, members and people in the gallery, we greet you all. The introduction of the Military Veterans Bill in Parliament marked a significant point in addressing the plight of our military veterans. The role of women in the liberation of this country, as has been said, is commendable. This being the month of celebrating our women, allow me to echo the gratitude and appreciation with regard to our female military veterans. Without their sacrifices we would not be here today.
An Umkhonto weSizwe commander, the late Commander Moses Mcane Mabhida, said: "A nation that forgets its past has no future". Our veterans are therefore our representatives in the journey that we have travelled.
Let me take you through the advisory council on military veterans, established by section 9. The task of the advisory council will be to advise the Minister on all matters that are related to the policies applicable to military veterans and provide expertise and understanding of military matters in general and military veterans in particular.
While it is understood that the advisory council's function is mainly to provide advice and support to the department, it is also expected to be diligent in executing its tasks in order to ensure that the benefits are rendered to military veterans in a very professional manner.
In the debate on the state of the nation address, the Deputy Minister, Comrade Thabang Makwetla, said: "Nothing for us without us". Therefore we are saying at least 50% of the members of the advisory board must be military veterans.
Hon Motimele has covered the role of the appeal board but I just want to add to what was said and say it is crucial that the independence of this board should be protected and supported and not interfered with. One member of the board needs to be an advocate or other legally qualified person. This will help resolve our fears of corruption and other issues. The person should have at least 10 years' experience and this should be seen as a way of ensuring that the rules of natural justice are followed in case of a dispute.
In conclusion, I want to say the advisory council and the appeal board will have to be effective and efficient to promote co-operation and co- ordination between these two bodies while assisting the department to execute this task.
The ANC supports this Bill and I am so happy that all the political parties support it. Hon members know that with us parliamentarians we have a number of bangages to support. So, whether the bandage goes to the arm or to the forehead - let us not worry about that. The reality is that we are all interested in supporting our veterans. I am so happy about the hon Tolo taking us even further and saying that we should look at biblical studies. He included biblical teachings because, really, we are all from one person. We are one country, in unison. The ANC supports this Bill.
Hon Deputy Speaker, and to the members of the portfolio committee who participated in this debate, I wish to express, on behalf of the Ministry, our appreciation for the support extended for this Bill.
I want to quickly indicate that the support for the Bill expressed by the DA should be put in context because actually - at least the support expressed by hon member Maynier - is not support. I am going to explain why I'm saying that it is actually not support.
It is not support because right from the beginning, when the Bill was introduced, hon member Maynier - I don't know whether he did this on behalf of the party or because he was furthering the party line - desperately tried to discredit the introduction of the Bill on the grounds that the Bill was not affordable. It was too costly - that was the first argument.
The reason why the Bill was said to be too costly was that the estimation of the budget involved was calculated on the basis that the population of military veterans that we have today was largely of a particular age group and therefore, from the point of what it would cost government to support them for the remaining years of their lives, it would cost the billions that he was talking about. However, there is no policy in government that is worked out that way. It was a clear and desperate attempt to say this Bill should not be introduced.
The reason for this is obvious: In the constituency that the hon member represents, we have never heard anyone saying that former white soldiers who were conscripted to do national service were in need of government support. We have never heard that. He knows that there is actually no such problem. That is why he could afford to say this Bill should not be introduced.
However, when he failed, he then moved on to say that the definition of the beneficiaries, the military veterans, should actually include all white males who have gone through national conscription in this country. In response to that, we said no, we would then be missing the target community of citizens who had been identified as needing government support. Quite simply, if we were to say that all white males in South Africa above the age of 38 should be put here as people who deserved government support, we would be making a mockery of the problem that we as government need to address. The reason for this is that those people, the white male South Africans above the age of 38, are among the most empowered and most powerful citizens in this country. They need no support from anybody, as a matter of fact.
However, let me continue and say that our definition of military veterans is highly inclusive. In some quarters it could not even have been imagined that the people whom this Bill says we should look after would include those who fought in defence of apartheid and who, during that service, received salaries. When those people left the service, they received pensions. Today they have a military veterans' association, the Council of Military Veterans' Organisations, CMVO, which is awash with resources for looking after those people. However, we have included them!
This Bill caters for all South Africans who were in military organisations - statutory and nonstatutory. Those South Africans will be South Africans whose names appear on the lists submitted by all the organisations involved in 1994, when the new SA National Defence Force was established. The then SA Defence Force, SADF, submitted a list of 90 000 troops. Those 90 000 troops are part of these military veterans. The SADF did not submit a list of over half a million white males who were said to be its members.
The reality is that national service - if we are honest about what it is that we are seeking to address as the problem - did not deprive a white South African male of the opportunity to become what he wanted to be in life simply because he was doing national service. They were ordered for a limited period of time, two years or so, to go for national service. After that they would continue with their lives, plans and careers. To that extent, they cannot today be presented as people who are a problem that we must look after.
We have noted the comments made by other parties here about matters that we must take care of. For example, there was the issue raised by the hon Tolo, namely that the information around this intervention needs to be communicated to military veterans, especially those who are in rural areas far from the reach of what is going on in our government departments.
Furthermore, with respect to the point raised by hon Mncwango about the self-defence units and the self-protection units, we do not, even for a moment, want to suggest that there are no South Africans who may, for one reason or another, need support from government. We do not want to suggest that there are people who, due to their involvement in the past as a result of the struggle against apartheid or their involvement in defending the status quo, do not need support from government. Their involvement in the past led to the disruption of their lives and today they need support from government.
However, the Bill talks about military veterans - those who were soldiers. Self-defence units did not belong to military organisations. Self- protection units did not belong to military organisations, unless the hon member Mncwango wants to tell this House that there is a military organisation that he knows of, which was never declared and to which these people belonged.
I want to say that the work that must be done in order to improve the lives of military veterans in this country is enormous. We need to make it a point that at the end of the day, when this policy shall have been realised, military veterans enjoy pride of place within our communities and their sense of self-worth is restored. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Bill read a second time (Democratic Alliance dissenting).