Mr Nesi is not here, but I have been informed that Mr Mokgobi will stand in for him.
Chairperson, am I correct? Question 17 which has been asked by Mr Nesi seeks to find out from me what steps had been put in place by the department to improve the working conditions of soldiers and what measures had been put in place to actually directly involve the unions in this matter.
The steps that have been taken since my appointment as Minister are too numerous to deal with in this question and answer session. I therefore propose, Chairperson, that I submit the rest of my answer in writing to you for Mr Nesi's perusal.
However, for now there are some points that I might want to raise at this session. These are the elements of the improvements that we brought about in the working situation of soldiers. The very first thing that we did was to seek a separate dispensation for the Defence Force away from the Public Service because we believed that it is only in this environment that we would be able to deal with the Defence Force in a way that a defence force should be catered for.
In pursuit of this we established a commission which has now completed its work and submitted its report to Cabinet, and it's now been submitted to Parliament. We have since amended the laws, the Defence Act, to ensure that its specific dispensation that we sought is given a legal basis. It is within this dispensation that we will comprehensively ensure that the conditions of the Defence Force are not only improved but have a legal basis continuing to ensure that they are appropriate for the kind of work that the Defence Force is required to do on behalf of the state.
In the space of at least 18 months we can say that the salaries of the lower ranks of the Defence Force have risen - in some cases by up to 60%. At the moment I'm sitting with the position where it is the generals who now want a salary raise. I don't know what I'm going to do if they take up the issue in the same way as the soldiers did. That was on a lighter note. The salaries have risen tremendously.
There is greater interaction with the soldiers so that they should understand that this government cares and ensures that they can work together so that we the government and they can have a better working relationship to better their lives.
The grievance procedure that allows them to address any unhappiness that they might have has been overhauled and we believe now that it is the best grievance procedure we could have possibly put together.
The accommodation of soldiers is receiving particular attention and to this effect the Minister of Public Works has committed herself and her department to ensure that they give particular attention to the accommodation of soldiers.
I could go on, as I said, but we will submit a document at the end of this session so that the NCOP goes through what it is that we have done because we are particularly proud of what we have done to ensure that soldiers have much improved working conditions.
This is what I particularly committed myself to in my first Budget Vote in July 2009 and we spent a great deal of time prioritising this issue.
The second part of the question deals with trade unions. The hon Nesi wants to know whether what we are doing now to improve the lives of the soldiers is being done in consultation with the trade unions. I would say yes, hon member. This is a very valued question because indeed any measures that I've outlined above would involve the direct engagement with unions. Like any other institution of government where the law requires recognition of the unions, these structures exist in the Defence Force to ensure that there is interaction.
However, and very importantly, I want to emphasise that in the Defence Force - as we speak now - there is no military union that currently meets the prescribed threshold of membership for recognition. None of them right now qualify for recognition. However, the structures exist. The unions do not exist to the extent that we would be able to recognise them. Thank you.
Chairperson, I support the Minister.
Thank you very much, Chairperson and Minister. Minister, are you saying that there are no unions? I'm very happy to hear that. Don't you think that to have unions in the Defence Force can pose a threat to the security of the country? That is my question, Minister. Thanks.
The hon member has paraphrased what I said. There is no union that has reached the threshold where we would recognise them. If they exist outside, that is probably in the media and everywhere else. In terms of the legal requirements, none of them have reached the threshold.
The specific question that he has asked again is a very valued one. I totally agree with him. I do not know of a country that recognises trade unions as we have. I think it would be complete anarchy now to go the way of recognising unions as we have. We have no legal precedent and we have no precedent anywhere in the world. I agree with the member - it would be a security risk greater than we can afford at this level of our development. Thank you.
Hon Minister, through the Chair, at this stage we have an Acting Chief of the SA National Defence Force. Can you just inform the House when do you envisage that the permanent one would be appointed? This is a strategic department, especially when we operate outside the borders of the country. I think it's good to have a permanent Chief of the SA National Defence Force appointed.
Chairperson, I'm looking at the question and I'm trying to work out where that Acting Chief of the SA National Defence Force might fit in. Is it in the improvement of the working conditions of the soldiers? It is? All right, okay, then it will be very soon. We will be appointing the Chief of the SA National Defence Force very soon.
Through you, Chair, I want to say that the reason why I am asking is that I can have a good tank or a good car but if you don't have a good driver you are in trouble.
I agree completely. I don't know what the analogy is intended to put across to me. We will have a Chief of the SA National Defence Force soon. We still have a driver right now who is driving very well and the Defence Force is on course. But we will have a permanent one. Thanks.
Thank you, Chairperson and thank you, Minister. Minister, we did have the opportunity in the committee to be addressed by the interim commission. The interim commission has indicated in their report that, when they interviewed members of the SA National Defence Force, most, in particular those who were on strike, indicated that they themselves did not want to participate or even join the union. They were only forced by the fact that there were no proper grievance procedures.
What I would like to know is: Have there been any measures put in place for proper grievance procedures in order for the members of the SA National Defence Force, SANDF, to complain properly under the right channels? Thank you.
Chairperson, yes, certainly we have overhauled our grievance mechanisms and procedures. We've put in place now what we think is extremely adequate for the conditions that we are in. Over and above that, we have before Parliament - I hope very soon but it has been approved by Cabinet - a Bill that establishes the military ombud's office. If we have a military ombuds person, then whenever we fall short in our grievance mechanism processes, soldiers have a place where they can go to as an ultimate place to express their grievances. We think that we have catered for this extremely and adequately.
Hon members, as you know, the Rule is that only four supplementary questions are allowed per question. We have reached that threshold.
Upgrading of facilities, progress made thus far and money spent thus far on training bases and accommodation for Defence Force members
18. Mr A G Matila (ANC) asked the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans:
Whether her department is currently upgrading (a) training bases and (b) accommodation places of Defence Force members; if not, why not; if so, (i) what progress has been made and (ii) how much has been spent thus far? CO119E
Chairperson, at this point I would also like to join the generals in asking for a salary raise and I am certain it would have your endorsement.
Chairperson, we are engaged in extensive upgrading of our facilities. Just to mention a few: we are dealing with two military hospitals that we had to upgrade; we are dealing with SA Military Battalion bases in Mpumalanga, etc. In all, I think that we have prioritised about 10 projects.
As of this year we have budgeted for an average of R425 million to deal with the upgrading of our facilities. I need to indicate to the member that, unfortunately, we are tied in a relationship where we are dependent on the Department of Public Works to do all the repair work and maintenance for the Department of Defence. We are hoping that we can move towards a situation and a relationship with the Department of Public Works where they will understand that it is possible for us to upgrade our own facilities. We are working on a memorandum of understanding in that regard.
We are hoping also that, from this year, we can put aside R1 billion which has been given to us to deal with upgrading of our facilities and annually we can put aside R1 billion for the next 15 years. If we are all still here in the next 15 years, we would have the kind of state-of-the-art accommodation in the Defence Force that I think they deserve, but that is what we have budgeted for. Thank you, Chairperson.
I am satisfied, Chair.
Chair, in Lohatla in the Northern Cape we have a training programme that we are offering to the defence forces of various countries. We realised it is in a bad state when we visited it while doing oversight there. Could the Minister indicate if the proceeds that are received as payment for the training that we provide to these defence forces will be committed for the upgrading of such facilities as well? Thank you.
Chairperson, I would agree with the member there about the condition of Lohatla. The condition of most of our bases is terrible. That is why we are committing so much money to upgrade them, because we think that we need to do something about it urgently. We are doing something about Lohatla as well.
We train largely African armies at our bases and this is normally in relation to a memorandum of understanding that we have with them. We charge them largely for their stay and upkeep. None of what is charged to them would go towards the upkeep of the bases. We offer this training on the basis that we do have the facilities and what we are giving to African counterparts is the training, and they pay for that. I must say that very few of them would be able to pay for more than they are paying for right now. It is in fact in part the relationships we would like to have with them that make it possible for us to offer this, but we are getting nothing in return that we would be using nor would it be ethically correct for us to put it back into our own infrastructure. Thank you.
Chairperson, Minister, could you possibly indicate when this memorandum of understanding between you and Public Works will be concluded? I am sure that you will agree that it's a waste of taxpayers' money. I know that there are very skilful people - better than in Public Works - who can do their own work. When do you think this memorandum of understanding will be signed or implemented? Thank you.
Chairperson, we still haven't signed it yet. So, the implementation date would not be specified, but we are working on it, because we believe, like the hon member, that we have the skills and the skills are much better than what Public Works has. But this is how government is structured; the Department of Public Works is entrusted with upgrading and upkeep, and ownership of property that belongs to the state.
As soon as the memorandum of understanding is signed, we will inform the hon member from Cope. [Laughter.] Mr Bloem from Western Cope. [Laughter.] Thank you.
Chairperson, there is another general in a different sphere of government who is very good at getting facilities, so maybe the Department of Defence must get him.
Chairperson, I just want to ask: Given the fact that the memorandum of understanding has not been signed, isn't it time that we think, as government, outside the box regarding the facilities of the state, including the facilities of the Department of Defence, and use the initiatives that have been announced by the Minister of Finance in his Budget Speech to address the real issues of creating employment and jobs for our people, and not necessarily entering into a memorandum of understanding, MOU, with the Department of Public Works? Thank you.
I completely agree and it is in that spirit that we are re-establishing our work regiment and intend to create more jobs and do our own work. Thank you.
Hon Chair, through you to the hon Minister: In terms of your report to this House regarding the training of foreign troops at our facilities and the inability of some of those countries to meet the real costs of that training, could you inform the House which countries have benefited from that training?
Chairperson, I am very mindful of the fact that anything I say here has to be to the best of my factual knowledge; I do not have the facts in front of me. I could go and look them up and make sure that the hon member has them.
Details relating to provision of fingerprint service by police stations to communities
19. Mr A G Matila (ANC) asked the Minister of Police:
(1) Whether all police stations provide a fingerprint service to communities on a daily basis; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;
(2) whether any decision has been taken to provide such a service at certain police stations and on certain days of the week; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what informed such a decision? CO120E
Chairperson, the response is yes. All fully fledged established police stations, excluding satellite police stations or contact points, should, on a daily basis, render a service with regard to the taking of fingerprints.
However, the taking of fingerprints has financial implications in certain situations which cause those services only to be rendered during certain hours and at certain police stations.
In terms of National Treasury instructions, members of the public are compelled to pay for certain fingerprint services, for example, fingerprints taken for public driver permits, police clearance certificates, etc. The aforesaid money can only be paid at police stations equipped with financial offices. So, if they are not equipped, then members of the public in that particular area are disadvantaged. Thank you.
Chair, whilst I accept what the Minister has said, could the Minister indicate whether there is a plan to make sure that all the police stations that are not doing that on a daily basis will be doing it on a daily basis. If people are going to be trained to be put in place there, the communities can get the necessary services on a daily basis. Not doing so might hamper or create problems for those particular communities.
If there is a plan, when will that plan be implemented so that those processes can make sure that we deliver services to the people on time? We have indicated that we want to make sure that we deliver services to the people properly. Thank you.
Chair, I thank the hon member. That would be an ideal situation. As I have said, there are some challenges relating to how some of our police stations are built, especially those which are not equipped with financial offices. It becomes practically impossible.
There is a whole host of new police stations being built, while others are being refurbished and so on. Ideally we would want all of the police stations to have such offices, but in practice not all of them do. It would be an ideal situation, as I have said.
There is a challenge in so far as how our police stations are built. The specific challenges particularly would be at those police stations to which we have referred a lot today, and these are police stations in rural areas or in villages and so on. They have that particular challenge. But, as I have said, it's an ideal situation. Thank you.
Chairperson, can I just explain to the hon members that in terms of Rule 246(4), it says no more than six questions for oral reply may be put to a Minister in respect of any one government department on any particular day. So, that is why the Minister of Police will not take Questions 20 and 24, because he has already responded to six questions. So, you can ask those the following time when it comes. And if you look at the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans, she has one question left now to make six. She also can only respond to six questions and not more than that. Thank you.
Total number of cases relating to unfair discrimination wrt physically disabled people dealt with by courts in 2010 and status of such cases
21. Mr L P M Nzimande (ANC) asked the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development:
(1) (a) What is the total number of cases relating to unfair discrimination with regard to persons who are physically disabled that were dealt with by the courts in 2010 and (b) what is the status of such cases;
2) whether such cases are an indication of changes in attitude towards persons with disabilities in the workplace; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, how?