Hon Chair, I was about to ask where the Reverend was. The requested information is not readily available as the selling of the confiscated drugs could relate to various crimes that could have been committed, such as theft, corruption, dealing in prohibited drugs, etc. The requested information, hon member, will be obtained from provincial commissioners. When it has been obtained, it will be readily available for you. Thank you.
Thank you, Chair. Well, then we should possibly hold over this issue. But could I just ask the Minister the second part of the question about the issue of the suspended officers; could I ask him just a general question then as to whether it's possible to speed up disciplinary processes when police officials are suspended? Obviously, it's very important that we finalise those matters, particularly where police officials are suspended with full pay. Thank you, Chairperson.
Hon member, are you asking in relation to this question or are you asking generally?
I think he is asking another question. If you do not wish to answer that question, it can be requested to be put on the Question Paper for another time.
Let me think how to answer you. Let me just apply my mind on how to answer you. I will come back to you when I'm ready. Thank you. [Laughter.]
Chairperson, the Minister is welcome to hold it over, if he prefers. Thank you.
Thank you, Chair. Minister, 11 bags of narcotics seized at O R Tambo International Airport were taken to the Pretoria Forensic Science Laboratory and promptly disappeared. The value was over R50 million, and this happened after the laboratory had installed CCTV cameras. My knowledge is that the person who was allegedly identified by CCTV tapes taking bags of drugs - I have the dates - and who works for the laboratory in an administrative capacity, has since been promoted and has allegedly purchased a house valued at R3 million. Now, have arrests been made in connection with the missing drugs? If not, it is quite obvious that this matter really isn't being effectively investigated. And is there any reason I should not call in, for example, the Special Investigating Unit, to do the job for you?
Sengathi uthanda izindaba, mhlonishwa. [Uhleko.] [It seems you are inquisitive, hon member. [Laughter.]]
The fact of the matter is that it's not one, but six people. The matter was then taken to the Director of Public Prosecutions, who declined to prosecute. Thereafter, the police ... [Interjections.] ... Why are you asking me? Do you think I'm a prosecutor? [Interjections.] I'm not a prosecutor.
Please be quiet. Let the Minister finish.
I'm not the Director of Public Prosecutions. So, that's what happened. After that, internally, the police put in place their own disciplinary processes. So from the point of view of those people being charged, that's what happened. Thank you very much.
Thank you, Chairperson. Thank you, Minister. Minister, the chain of evidence is an important aspect of the criminal justice system. Yet, we found during our oversight visits that there was a lack of control at the SAPS Silverton stores and of the evidence that is kept in those stores, especially in as far as drugs are concerned. National instructions are not followed in dealing with drugs at the police station level. In your opinion, Minister, what can be done to improve the situation and to minimise the associated risks in respect of these SAPS Silverton stores?
Well, hon member, I thought, as an expert in the field, you were going to help me by telling me what needs to be done. But in this instance - as you say that there are national instructions - what we have said, from the point of view of the national commissioner's office, is that that should be followed up. This is because what has been happening is that national instructions are issued to local levels without any follow- ups. So we wanted that to be followed up. It's not just the communication of national instructions. But I'm sure you will come up with other suggestions, won't you? [Laughter.]
Thank you, hon Chair. I thought that the Minister was requesting that this question stand over because of certain information that he did not have readily available. I agree with the Minister that this question stand over because there are important elements of the question that we could probably benefit from in the Minister's report at the next sitting. I think that at the moment we are going to be asking what the Minister is not going to be able to provide. It's only fair that we agree with the Minister that this question should stand over and be posed again later.
Hon member, when you don't have a question, you must say that you don't have a question. There is no question to answer. It was a very general question by the hon Swart - in fact, ebezithathela ichance nje [he was just taking a chance]. But, if you have a question, ask the question.
Particulars regarding action taken by Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation (Hawks) in connection with new information on the arms deal emerging in Sweden and Germany
3. Mr D J Maynier (DA) asked the Minister of Police: [Written Question No 2630]
(1) Whether officials from the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation (Hawks) have approached the (a) National Anti- Corruption Unit in Sweden and (b) Serious Fraud Office in the United Kingdom in connection with the new information (details furnished) on the arms deal which is emerging in Sweden; if not, why not, in each specified case; if so, what are the relevant details, in each specified case;
(2) whether officials from the Hawks have approached (a) any prosecuting authority in Germany and (b) a certain company (name furnished) in connection with the new information (details furnished) relating to the arms deal which is emerging in Germany; if not, why not, in each specified case; if so, what are the relevant details, in each specified case;
(3) whether the Hawks have launched a preliminary investigation into the new information on the arms deal emerging in (a) Sweden and (b) Germany; if not, why not, in each specified case; if so, what are the relevant details, in each specified case?
(4) whether he will make a statement on the matter? NO3081E
Hon member, the answer is no. As you would know, the President has announced a commission of inquiry. So the answer is no. Thank you.
Speaker, the Minister will be aware that Gen Anwar Dramat, Head of the Hawks, undertook in a letter dated 27 July 2011 and addressed to the hon Themba Godi, chairperson of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, that two officials would approach Sweden's National Anti- Corruption Unit and Britain's Serious Fraud Office to follow up on the allegations relating to arms deal corruption. Would the Minister tell us why this undertaking was not honoured by Gen Anwar Dramat?
Thank you, hon member. I will be very kind to you, hon member, and won't say that you are unpatriotic. What you forgot to say is that that interaction happened, and the letter was written, before the commission I'm talking about. This commission supersedes whatever is happening, including your question. If you had any other information, you would then be going through this commission. It is a matter of time; it happened before. Thank you very much.
Thank you very much, House Chairperson. I don't actually have a follow-up question. The Minister has answered very clearly. I would have expected that the hon Maynier would have listened to him, and not bothered to try to ask further questions. So I just want to say that we are quite satisfied with the answer from the Minister. Thank you. [Applause.]
Progress made in establishing a single, integrated fingerprint database and a DNA database
174. Adv A H Gaum (ANC) asked the Minister of Police:
What progress has been made to (a) have a single, integrated fingerprint database by, inter alia, accessing the database of the Department of Home Affairs for this purpose and (b) establish a DNA database? NO2981E
Hon Chairperson, the Criminal Law (Forensic Procedures) Amendment Act, Act 6 of 2010, does not allow for a single, integrated fingerprint database. The department is in consultation with the Department of Home Affairs and other departments within the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security cluster, developing mechanisms to ensure the exchange and sharing of information critical to an effective and efficient criminal justice system. I would refer the hon member to the Portfolio Committee on Police, as they would be able to give the hon member clarity on the deoxyribonucleic acid, DNA, legislative process. I thank you.
Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, given the importance of physical evidence from the crime scene in establishing a link with the criminal or criminals, in particular in the absence of witnesses, it is of paramount importance that the police get access to the vast fingerprint database of the Department of Home Affairs and that a comprehensive DNA database is developed as soon as possible.
By when does the Minister aim to complete these consultations with the Department of Home Affairs and other departments to establish access to the relevant fingerprints? Secondly, what is the Minister's timeframe for having such DNA legislation - that, I assume, will make provision for a DNA database - operational? Thank you.
Thank you, hon member. The consultations are continuing with the Ministry of Home Affairs and generally within the JCPS cluster. But there are other things, as I said, with regard to the portfolio committee in terms of the processes of this Act in particular. Remember, this is an Act of which part was passed, and the other part still has to undergo the process. I am not the spokesperson of the portfolio committee, but I know that together with the department they have been undertaking study tours to ensure that this process continues. Thank you.
Thank you, Chair. Minister, on our trips, both as the portfolio committee and individually, to police stations around the country, we have discovered that there is virtually no knowledge at all about the so-called fingerprint legislation - the Criminal Law (Forensic Procedures) Amendment Act - and the ability that that Act gives to our police to forward the fingerprints that they don't recognise from the police database to other databases, such as that of Home Affairs. There is no knowledge of it at the stations we visited.
Could you explain how it is that at the station level there is no knowledge of what was, for us, a very gruelling process to get this legislation through and passed? Also, have the relevant regulations been drawn up yet? I know, for example, when it comes to the Second-Hand Goods Act, which we passed here about three years ago, that they haven't even finished the regulations yet. It feels to me as though the legislation we work day and night to pass never gets past these doors. And I am finding that extremely disconcerting. Thank you.
Thank you, hon Chair. Part of the job of public representatives like yourselves is to inform the public. [Interjections.] It is your job to do that, much as it is the job of everybody else. Generalising about the knowledge ... [Interjections.] You see, the problem is that when you talk, we listen, but you must also listen. We will give you some cold water here to cool down, because there is a problem with the temperature. [Laughter.]
They will know in due course. But, firstly, we would want to know: Who does not know in the police stations and at which police stations? Generally, people are going to know about the process as it unfolds, and there is no rush at all. If you rush such an Act, you are going to leave a lot of people outside the process, and you in particular will come back and make a lot of noise here about people not being consulted. [Interjections.] So, people are going to be consulted. [Interjections.] The very reason ... You must listen here. The very reason that you undertook study tours says that the process is at a particular level, and it will continue. Thank you very much.
It's just another Act you haven't implemented as yet!
Hon Kohler-Barnard, there is no need to scream across the floor.
Reasons for department not expediting visa application of Dalai Lama
198. Mr G B D McIntosh (Cope) asked the Minister of International Relations and Co-operation:
What are the reasons for her department not expediting the visa application of His Holiness the Dalai Lama of Tibet in light of his standing in the world and of his previous visit to South Africa that took place without any incident? NO3782E
Hon Chairperson, I think this question also relates to the Dalai Lama question. Earlier we said that the matter was sub judice, and the Speaker gave a ruling on the matter. So I think that also applies to this question.
Thank you, Deputy Minister. The Speaker has indeed ruled that the matter is sub judice.
The next question is Question 169, which has been posed by Mr Lekgetho to the Minister of ...
With respect, Madam Chair, I wish to ask a supplementary question, but it has nothing to do with the sub judice element at all. I think you will realise that when you hear the question.
Regarding the question that has been put on the Question Paper, the Deputy Minister has said that it is sub judice, according to the Speaker's ruling. So, I don't know what question you want to ask, but it would appear to me that it's another question.
Madam Chair, it won't relate to the visa, and then you can make a ruling, Madam Chair.
All right, ask the question, hon McIntosh.
My question to the hon Minister is: Is the hon Minister aware that the Han Chinese majority of the People's Republic of China are at the moment creating a classic colonial situation in the province of Tibet?
Hon McIntosh, that has nothing to do with this question.
We will now go on to the next question, which is Question 169. And, next time, hon McIntosh, don't abuse the chance that you are given to speak when you know that the question isn't related.
Position regarding intention to introduce severe penalties for persons convicted of police killings
169. Mr G Lekgetho (ANC) asked the Minister of Police:
Whether, in light of the high number of SA Police Service (SAPS) officials who have been killed since 1 January 2011 and the potentially negative effect it has on the morale of the members of the SAPS, he intends introducing any severe penalties for persons convicted of such police killings; if not, why not; if so, what (a) penalties and (b) are the further relevant details?