Hon Deputy Speaker, the response is that the Department of Public Service and Administration is in the process of taking the draft Public Service integrity management framework to Cabinet. The framework proposes to extend the disclosure of financial interests to all employees in the Public Service. The current regulatory framework prohibits any employee who has a conflict of interest from participating in any decision-making process.
Chapter 2, C.4.6 of the Public Service Regulations stipulates that an employee will recuse herself or himself from any official action or decision-making process that may result in improper personal gain, and that this should be properly declared by the employee. This provision has crystallised into a practice in the Public Service. This practice is observed in any recruitment or procurement process. Failure to comply with this provision is deemed misconduct.
The Minister for the Public Service and Administration does not have powers to regulate rules and codes of conduct for public office bearers.
Deputy Speaker, I would like to thank the hon Minister for her response. In your reply, Minister, you made reference to regulations regarding public servants recusing themselves from matters that could lead to improper personal gain. In fact, too often in the Standing Committee on Public Accounts we encounter incidents where this has not been done. We find that public servants are not recusing themselves when they should do so.
My follow-up question is: What steps is the department taking to ensure that these regulations are indeed enforced, complied with and monitored and that appropriate disciplinary measures are taken against those who transgress them?
Deputy Chairperson, the practice is that the Department of Public Service and Administration makes policies and develops the framework in general. The departments must implement what comes from the DPSA. It is the departments, and not the Minister for the Public Service and Administration, that have to ensure that there is compliance with regulations. The different Ministers in the departments have to ensure that this is being applied or followed through. They can't be sitting on all the tender boards or acquisition committees in all the different departments. It is the responsibility of departments to ensure that there is compliance.
Deputy Speaker and hon Minister, the National Planning Commission and the Public Service Commission have identified poor management, the erosion of accountability and authority structures, misaligned decision rights and corruption as reasons for the poor state of governance in government and most provinces. Will the Ministry take that undertaking further, to assure that no public servants and their families will do business with any government structure, similar to what was done in the Western Cape? [Applause.]
Hear, hear!
I am sorry, Deputy Speaker, I missed the last part of what the member was saying. I am also trying to get the Deputy Minister to also ... [Interjections.]
Hon member, could you please repeat that part about the Western Cape? [Laughter.]
I will ask the question in a way that the Minister will understand. Will the Minister take the undertaking further to ensure that no public servant and their families will do business with any government structure, similar to what was done in the Western Cape?
Deputy Speaker, no, it won't be informed by the Western Cape. It will be informed by what needs to happen in government. What he is saying is what needs to happen and is not necessarily being informed by the Western Cape. As I have already indicated, and as the Deputy Minister has already confirmed, if you look at the framework, it is meant exactly to make sure that ... [Interjections.] No, it is not going to be informed by the Western Cape, but by what needs to happen in government. [Interjections.]
Order!
The Public Service Regulations stipulate that an employee will recuse himself or herself from any official action or all decision-making processes that may result in improper personal gain. This should be declared by the employee. As I have already indicated, it has to be applied all over in government - not because the Western Cape has done it, but because it has to be done. I agree with you and you are right that it has to be done, but not because it is done in the Western Cape. [Interjections.]
Madam Deputy Chairperson, that was not the question. [Interjections.]
No dialogue, please. Hon Kilian - oh, were you pressing it for hon Ramatlakane?
Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: With all due respect, the Minister did not answer the question. [Interjections.] It is a point of order. What do you think it is? [Interjections.]
She did answer the question. [Interjections.] You might not be satisfied, hon member, but she did answer the question.
Hon Deputy Speaker, I just want to say that according to the list the hon Ramatlakane was first, and I was supposed to be the next one to ask a question.
Hon Kilian, do you want to speak? Do you want to ask a question?
Yes, but ... [Interjections.]
I pointed to you to ask a question. Do you want to ask it?
As long as I know that the hon Ramatlakane will then follow. [Interjections.]
Do you want to ask a question?
Yes, I do.
Then ask the question.
Deputy Speaker, the important fact that we as Cope want to raise is that we don't want to have this recusing of public officials during decision-making. We want to see that there is a total barring of conducting business with the state if you are employed by the state. [Interjections.]
HON MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
We have seen the looting of the SABC exactly on account of this. Today I recuse myself from a decision and the hon so and so will look after my interests. Tomorrow the hon so and so will recuse himself and I will in turn look after his business interests. That is the practical reality; that is what is happening. That is how Public Service officials are looting the resources of the state. Will government commit itself to barring the conducting of business between an employee of the state and the state itself? I am referring to all departments, all the way through. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
Deputy Speaker, understand that the guidelines on sanctions have been developed and will be applied across the state. Again, I would like to confirm what the Deputy Minister has said - that will apply exactly as we said. Those guidelines are there. What we might need to do is to check if they do indeed comply with all the requirements. They are there and will be applied throughout the system. Currently, they are only covering senior officials, but I was told that they were going to apply throughout the whole state.
Is that a point of order, hon Pule?
Deputy Speaker, yes, it is almost a question. I would like to check something with the hon member. She spoke about the looting that is happening at the SABC. I did not understand what she was talking about. [Interjections.]
Maybe you must ask her outside this meeting. [Interjections.] Hon Schneemann, you are on the screen! Hon Hlengethwa!
Hon Deputy Speaker, can I please address you on a point of order?
What is your point of order?
Deputy Speaker, the point of order is the supplementary questions. As Cope understands it, the Rules provide for members to be sequenced on the basis of when they press the to-talk button. It happened now that there were two Cope members. I do not believe it is fair to discriminate against Cope. [Interjections.]
Hon Kilian, are you trying to chair this meeting for me? I am trying to be very nice today. You are trying to chair this meeting for me. What you are saying is not written anywhere. Hon Ramatlakane had his bite of the question that the Minister was asked. When parties are pressing the buttons, I need to make sure that I have a spread of all the parties. I'm sorry but if you want to chair this meeting, you will have to wait for another time - not when I am chairing it, please. [Interjections.]
Hon Deputy Speaker, I don't think we can allow a situation where the presiding officer is accused of being discriminatory, because that will go against the essence of chairing. [Interjections.] The hon member should withdraw the word "discriminatory". She should withdraw it. [Interjections.]
Hon Deputy Speaker, on the same point, the Chief Whip is not chairing the meeting, you are. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]
He is not chairing the meeting; he is just making a point. [Interjections.] In fact, the time allocated for questions has expired. Outstanding replies received will be printed in Hansard.
See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.