Hon Chairperson, the Presidency Budget Vote should be a glorious reflection of our rainbow nation - an open-opportunity society, strong leadership, sound economic growth, freedom of association and speech, job creation, quality education and a crime-free South Africa. The President had and still has a world of opportunities to lead this country like a true leader, but there is no leadership, no vision and no political will forthcoming, other than dancing and to secure and bank the votes at Mangaung.
This position of leadership has the responsibility to the people of South Africa to unite the nation, and there is no sign of it. It was the President who introduced the words "wage subsidy" in his state of the nation address in 2010, yet, he failed to hold his own against Cosatu. The rate of unemployed youth under the age of 25 is 49%. The President should protect the unemployed youth. This issue should haunt him every day until he forces the implementation of the youth wage subsidy. He holds the key that straddles a very delicate tipping point between a prosperous South Africa and widespread unrest.
The budget presented has grown at a phenomenal rate of 256% since 2003. Is any of this budget really justified? Are South Africans getting bang for their buck from their President? No. The DA will not support the Presidency Budget Vote. I thank you.
Chairperson, Cope cannot support Budget Vote No 1 - The Presidency when there is a breakdown of law and order in the country; when the Constitution of the country is threatened and when the entire country is burning. People in every city and every town are in the streets, protesting over basic services. When the President of the country failed to turn up at the annual Youth Day rally in the Eastern Cape, our question was: Where is the President? We can't support this Vote. Thank you very much.
Chair, I want to say that the President of the country has a responsibility not only in South Africa but also internationally. He is an international figure and he therefore has to communicate with other countries. Any understanding Member of Parliament, let alone people in society, would have known that the President was attending the G20 Summit, and this was a summit that the hon member knows about.
I also want to say that it is a pity that people raise petty things. There will be protests and they did not start now. They will always be there, because 20 years later we are still dealing with the legacy of apartheid. We couldn't have done it in less than 20 years; it is not possible.
On the issue raised by the hon Ms Van Lingen concerning an open-opportunity society, an open-opportunity society belongs to a certain section of our country. It belongs to the white people, in particular the rich and the haves, and excludes the have-nots. [Interjections.]
I also want to say that the DA, instead of trying to assist the ANC, is further dividing South Africans. They are encouraging black-on-black violence. A good example of that is what happened in Johannesburg when they organised their march. Where were the young unemployed white people? Where were they? Why was it only African unemployed people? That was a rented crowd, particularly from the Vaal in Gauteng.
Chair, on a point of order: We are dividing here: division and statements on budgets. This is not a debating forum. We are just stating why we are anti the Vote. [Interjections.] Are we going to allow a debate on every Vote? [Interjections.]
Order! Order! I thought the member was responding to a statement made by a member. [Interjections.]
Hon Chair, I am doing exactly that.
Hon member, remember your declaration of vote should be only three minutes long.
Chair, I am doing exactly that. We can't keep quiet when there are allegations and, of course, lies spread about the President of the ANC and of South Africa. Whatever members want to do, it would have been good if members assisted in building the nation.
Hon member, your time has expired.
Yes, Chair, and I want to conclude by saying the ANC supports Budget Vote No 1. [Applause.]
Order! We now turn to voting. Could we use our electronic votes now? All right. Members will then vote ... [Interjections.] Yes, you can vote manually. That is all right. They will count you. Members can vote in favour, or can vote against, or can abstain by using their ... Yes, Mr Lees?
Hon Chair, could I please get some clarity? In terms of this new system, how does a division work? This is because traditionally a division is a physical separation of the members in the House. [Interjections.] Mr Chair, would you protect me, please?
Order! Order! Let's listen, hon members.
Hon Chair, I just want clarity. I am not prescribing to the House. I would like some clarity about the new system with regard to how we deal with divisions. Thank you very much, hon Chair.
When you press "against", the machine will show that and then the staff will give me the results: how many noes there are, how many are in favour and how many have abstained. Then I will announce the results to the House. If your electronic voting system does not work, we will manually record your voting - unless members want to go back to the old order and we move quicker.
Thank you very much for your explanation, hon Chair.
Division demanded.
The Council divided:
AYES - 27: Adams, F; Boroto, MG; Chaane, TE; de Beer, CJ; Dikgale, MC; Gamede, DD; Jacobs, MP; Mabe, BP; Mabija, L; Magadla, NW; Makhunyane, T; Matila, AG; Mazosiwe, S; Mncube, BV; Mnguni, BA; Mofokeng, TMH; Mokgoro, GG; Montsitsi, SD; Nesi, B; Ntwanambi, ND; Nyambi, AJ; Nzimande, LPM; Qikani, AND; Rantho, DZ; Rasmeni, RN; Sibande, MP; Tau, RJ.
NOES - 13: Abrahams, BL; Bekker, JM; Bloem, DV; de Villiers, MJR; Faber, WF; Feldman, DB; Groenewald, HB; Joseph, D; Lees, RA; Manzini, VK; Makhubela, MW; Mlenzana, Z; Sinclair, KA; Van Lingen, EC; Worth, DA.
Vote accordingly agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Congress of the People dissenting).
Vote No 2 - Parliament - put:
Declarations of vote:
Chairperson, Cope supports Vote No 2 but needs to raise some concerns about some shortcomings in Vote No 2. Cope feels very strongly that committees must be fully capacitated so that we can fulfil our oversight role better. We need to have a bigger budget for Parliament ... [Inaudible.]
Chairperson, the DA will not support the Parliament Budget Vote on the grounds that it fails to capture what the institution needs in order to carry out its functions in the most effective manner possible and in order to improve its democratic service to the people of South Africa.
The budget of Parliament, in fact, measures Parliament's performance indicators, but gives no sense of the success with which the institution is actually performing. For example, they tell us the number of Bills passed per year, but not the number of Bills repealed or challenged in court. They tell us the number of questions put to the executive, but not the number of questions that remain outstanding.
Parliament wants to increase capacity, which runs together with training and development, but the budget decreased by 21,8% in nominal terms. As a consequence, the budget either underinvests, or, in certain areas, provides no investment in key areas that would support improvements in Parliament's internal functioning. On the other hand, the budget overinvests in initiating and organising events and programmes external to Parliament's core constitutional mandate. So, it is questionable that Parliament will be able to reach its targets.
The DA cannot support a budget that so inaccurately captures the true role of this Parliament and what it actually needs in order for it to be a Parliament of the people.
Chairperson, in fact, one must start by saying that this is very disappointing. Thanks go to your and the Speaker's leadership for having captured the key essence of the role of Parliament, for having raised the challenges Parliament is faced with, and for having provided what alternatives needed to be brought about in order to ensure that we have an effective people's Parliament.
I find it extremely disingenuous and misleading on the part of the DA to even question the outreach programme of Parliament and, at the same time, they want to purport or position themselves as people who support the notion of a people's Parliament. This is because the notion is primarily centred and anchored by our outreach programmes - by ensuring that we reach out to our people, by ensuring that we strengthen our oversight role, by ensuring that we listen to our people, by ensuring that we become a responsive Parliament.
We cannot, therefore, be seated here and listen to an hon member not supporting a Budget Vote of Parliament and even questioning the credibility of the outreach programme of Parliament. I think that is very misleading.
We have said this, and you have said this also regarding the Budget Vote: One of the things we will be doing in this financial year is to strengthen the capacity of the committees in order to make the committees of Parliament very effective and to ensure that they are resourced in such a manner that they are able to respond to the needs of our people.
Therefore, not to support a Budget Vote that seeks to do exactly that makes one question why they are Members of Parliament. Why is your party represented in this Parliament? That is misleading. That shows that this organisation or party called the DA does not care about our people and, therefore, would not even support the notion of a people's Parliament during its outreach programme. I rise to say that as the ANC, we support you, we support the Speaker and we support this Budget Vote wholeheartedly. And we will ensure that we work with you to ensure that this Parliament is an effective Parliament that will address the issues of the poor and the marginalised in particular. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting). Vote No 3 - Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs - put: (
Declarations of vote:
Hon Chair, the DA certainly supports many of the programmes and initiatives of the Department for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. However, I need to give a few reasons why we are not able to support this Budget Vote.
This is the department that brings government closest to the people. In the past financial year, this department received a qualified audit and the Auditor-General has, on various occasions, expressed concern. This was actually a regression from the previous year, which indicates that things are not well in this department. The department has branches of governance within the province that failed to perform across the country to the extent that a national intervention was needed. This was in the provinces of Gauteng, the Free State and Limpopo.
The department failed to exercise sufficient oversight over senior staff and senior appointments, leaving the perception of corruption or maladministration. This is not good enough. We need to see far greater resourcing and attention paid to the fight against corruption and maladministration. Good governance is possible and achievable, because in the provinces and municipalities where the DA governs the DA has shown that it is possible.
It is possible to be accountable and to achieve the targets for service delivery. We therefore are not able to support this budget. I thank you, hon Chair.
Hon Chair, the ID certainly supports many of the programmes and initiatives of the Department for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. However, we cannot in good conscience vote in favour of this budget. In the past financial year this department received a qualified audit opinion by the Auditor-General. This was a regression from the previous year and a sign that all was not well within the department.
It was a clear indication that governance and management within the department were falling behind and that not enough attention was being paid to ensuring the department fulfilled its proper roles and functions. The government has witnessed severe breaches of good governance within provinces and abject failure and dismal performance by many municipalities across the country.
When one looks at the Auditor-General's report of the 2010-2011 financial year on the spending of local municipalities, it makes it impossible to support a Budget Vote where money is not spent in a worthwhile way.
The ID cannot support a Budget Vote where there are incompetent staff members, a lack of discipline and a poor work ethic in some municipalities. Operation Clean Audit will only happen when this department implements the political will that is needed and has the burden of the people at heart. The ID does not support the Budget Vote. I thank you.
Chair, as the ANC we support this Budget Vote. The DA must not mislead our people. It is the ANC that started to deal with corruption. Corruption comes from apartheid times. The DA was always quiet. During apartheid, the DA never spoke about corruption. Today, they want to become the champions when they know that it is the ANC that started this whole process. Therefore, today they do not want to ... They rush to court when corruption is being dealt with within the DA municipalities or the DA provincial government. They rush to court to prevent that situation from happening. [Interjections.]
As the ANC, we say that we support this process, because we came up with the turnaround strategy - not the DA, but the ANC. Therefore, in light of that, we support this budget.
Order! Hon members, could you all listen, please? I just want to move a little bit faster. I have a guide in front of me that was given to the Chief Whip and it is on my table. It tells me which parties are objecting and where a division is being called. Could I follow that? Would you be happy with that? Then we will move a little bit faster. A division has been called for regarding this Budget Vote by the DA and the ID. Could we get to the voting now?
Division demanded.
The Council divided:
AYES - 32: Adams, F; Bloem, DV; Boroto, MG; Chaane, TE; de Beer, CJ; Dikgale, MC, Gamede, DD; Jacobs, MP; Mabe, BP; Mabija, L; Makhubela, MW; Magadla, NW; Makhunyane, T; Mashile, BL; Matila, AG; Mazosiwe, S; Mlenzana, Z; Mncube, BV; Mnguni, BA; Mofokeng, TMH; Mokgoro, GG; Montsitsi, SD; Nesi, B; Ntwanambi, ND; Nyambi, AJ; Nzimande, LPM; Qikani, AND; Rantho, DZ; Rasmeni, RN; Sibande, MP; Sinclair, KA; Tau, RJ.
NOES - 12: Abrahams, BL; Bekker, JM; de Villiers, MJR; Faber, WF; Feldman, DB; Groenewald, HB; Gunda, JJ; Joseph, D; Lees, RA; Manzini, VK; Van Lingen, EC ; Worth, DA.
Vote accordingly agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).
Vote No 4 - Home Affairs - put and agreed to.
Vote No 5 - International Relations and Co-operation - put.
Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).
Vote No 6 - Performance Monitoring and Evaluation - put:
Declaration of vote:
Chairperson, Cope cannot support Budget Vote 6 on Performance Monitoring and Evaluation due to the unco-ordinated manner of accountability with regard to punitive measures taken against officials involved in acts of corruption and unethical practices. [Inaudible.] ... is a waste of taxpayer's money, because it does not serve the public interest owing to selective operational practices. Cope in Parliament realised the need to ensure greater measures of accountability and punitive arrangements to ensure improved performance.
We are of the opinion that the department has failed in its duty to uphold these objectives. Therefore, the taxpayer's money should be spent more productively. Thank you very much.
Vote agreed to (Congress of the People, Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).
Vote No 7 - Public Works - put:
Declarations of vote:
Chairperson, let me start by saying that Cope supports the Budget Vote. However, this department must be seen as the key catalyst in optimally managing this property portfolio in terms of the revenue generation of the state. Controversial leasing agreements, which prove more costly than ownership options, must come to an end. Cope will monitor the department's turnaround strategy, as pronounced by the Minister - we were here; we listened - to ensure that various milestones are achieved. Thank you, Chair.
Hon Chairperson, during a presentation to the Portfolio Committee on Public Works, the acting director-general said: If MPs knew the full extent of the problems, they would be shocked. She was right.
The sad reality is that the disintegration of state institutions directly impacts on service delivery. The National Planning Commission underlines the importance of a capable state in delivering quality services and says that without a capable state, there can be no service delivery.
While the DA government in the Western Cape complies with and implements the government's Immovable Asset Management Act, this department does not have a reliable immovable asset register after two years in office.
We therefore understand why the Minister says that nobody wants to associate himself with this department. Our major clients are running away from us because they don't get the services they expect.
A dysfunctional institution also encourages corruption. The acting director- general underlined this when she said: "The scale of corruption is so wide and goes so deep, it is scary, and if this department were a business, it would have been bankrupt."
To fix the department, the Minister must appoint skilled and technically qualified people. As the Minister said: This department is a technical department. It requires skilled people such as architects, engineers and quantity surveyors, yet this department has almost none.
While we appreciate the Minister's candid openness about this department, we need to see action and results. Until such time, the DA will not support this Budget Vote. I thank you.
Hon Chairperson, I am surprised okushiwo yi-DA [by what is said by DA]. The ANC supports the Budget Vote. In his 2012 state of the nation address, President Zuma placed emphasis on, amongst other things, the massive infrastructure development drive for the year 2012 and beyond, that will underpin economic growth and job creation and be pivotal in supporting enterprise development and enhancing the transformation of the construction industry.
As a leader in the provision of government building infrastructure in South Africa, the Department of Public Works plays a critical role in providing an enabling environment for the effective and efficient implementation of social and economic infrastructure.
The department's mission is, therefore, to promote government's policy objectives by providing and managing the accommodation, housing, land and infrastructure-related needs of user departments, co-ordinating the national Expanded Public Works Programme and driving the transformation of the construction and property industries. By bringing to the market modern, improved methods of construction, the dignity of people who live under disadvantaged circumstances will be restored. [Interjections.] You were there in the past; you know what you were doing.
Through skills transfer and training, Public Works will be contributing to the national goal of job creation and poverty alleviation, while, by applying innovative technologies suitable for fast-tracking rural development, public services will be improved, especially in rural areas. In this way, the ANC-led government will fulfil its promise of developing affordable, improved housing and infrastructure in a healthier habitat. The ANC supports this Budget Vote. Thank you, Chairperson. [Time expired.] Division demanded.
The Council divided:
AYES - 32: Adams, F; Boroto, MG; Bloem, DV; Chaane, TE; de Beer, CJ; Dikgale, MC; Feldman, DB; Gamede, DD; Jacobs, MP; Mabe, BP; Mabija, L; Magadla, NW; Makhunyane, T; Mashile, BL; Matila, AG; Mazosiwe, S; Mlenzana, Z ; Mncube, BV; Mnguni, BA; Mofokeng, TMH; Mokgoro, GG; Montsitsi, SD; Nesi, B; Ntwanambi, ND; Nyambi, AJ; Nzimande, LPM; Qikani, AND; Rantho, DZ; Rasmeni, RN; Sibande, MP; Sinclair, KA; Tau, RJ.
NOES - 12: Abrahams, BL; Bekker, JM; de Villiers, MJR; Faber, WF; Groenewald, HB; Gunda, JJ; Joseph, D; Lees, RA; Manzini, VM; Makhubela, MW; Van Lingen, EC; Worth, DA.
Vote accordingly agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).
Vote No 8 - Women, Children and People with Disabilities - put:
Declarations of vote:
Hon Chairperson, this department's role is still not clear to this day. This gives the Minister an opportunity to dodge the questions on where she failed to deliver. Weak leadership in this department is to the detriment of this very noble cause. It is also clear to Cope that the department is only a burden on the taxpayer at the moment. The department's administration budget has skyrocketed by 400% from R1,7 million to R42,8 million. We do not support this. Thank you, Chairperson.
Hon Chairperson, the DA has been monitoring the performance of the Department of Women, Children and People with Disabilities. Poor financial management and inappropriate spending priorities have become the defining characteristics of the department. The department's failure to spend the budget on its rights for persons with disabilities' programme is equivalent to a violation of the rights of South Africans with disabilities. Last, but not least, lack of leadership, responsibility and action plans played a pivotal role in the failure to empower our most vulnerable groups - again, that is women, children and people with disabilities. The DA therefore cannot support the 2012-13 budget. Thank you, Chair.
Hon Chair, let me start by saying that the ANC supports the Budget Vote. It is unfortunate that the hon Worth is a member of the committee. He agrees on everything that we do in the committee. Before the budget was tabled, we had our committee meeting at which the department presented their strategic plan, their annual budget, their spending and their challenges. He was there, but never raised anything. It is unfortunate that people get channelled to come and say things that they personally know are incorrect. I am also saddened by the fact that the hon Sinclair from Cope is publicly saying that he does not understand the role of the department. I will not outline that to him. It is his responsibility to read about it. It is indeed a very sad day today to hear Cope say that the formation of the department is a burden. That is a serious allegation, and it is wrong. I know that people with disabilities, and women and children will not be happy to hear that.
This department is here. It is the ANC that has supported it in making sure that we champion the rights of the voiceless and marginalised people who were never recognised before by the apartheid regime. We are trying to champion their rights, make sure that we recognise them and make sure that they will never be marginalised again. Therefore, we wholeheartedly support this budget. Thank you.
Chairperson, is it parliamentary for an hon member to insult another member and say that the hon member said what he said owing to the Bantu education that he went through? [Interjections.] That was the hon Sinclair. The hon Sinclair said that the hon Mabe was saying what she said because of the influence of Bantu education. [Interjections.]
Well, I did not hear the statement as she was not speaking into the microphone. [Interjections.] I am not sure whether it was recorded or not. [Interjections.] Order! You have raised your point of order. Now give me a chance to talk, hon member. Mr Sinclair, did you say that?
Chair, I suggest that we go to the record and listen to what I said.
I will not hear it on record because it was not recorded. I am asking if you said that because it was not recorded; you were far from the microphone. If you said it, just say so and withdraw.
No, Chair, I suggest we go to the record and see if it was picked up. [Interjections.] Are you the Chairperson? Chair, what I am saying is: In terms of the context of what I said, it is not what is indicated by the hon member. [Interjections.]
Hon members, let us not argue about that. Please let us not cast bad aspersions on hon members. We are all hon members in this House. Let us respect each other. It is very important. Raise things in a better context. Staff might want to check whether it has been recorded, but it was spoken away from the microphone; it will not be recorded. Please avoid things like that.
Chair, with due respect to your ruling, he says the context is not the one that the hon Nyambi understood. Apartheid education was very painful. I therefore move that the hon member withdraw, because it pains some of us to be reminded of Bantu education. It is painful.
Well, I am going to repeat this: Mr Sinclair, I did not hear you. Mr Tau, as I am sitting here - you are also a presiding officer - I did not hear. I am asking the member fairly: If you said that, could you just withdraw? It does not harm you anyway. I cannot refer to the recordings as this will not have been recorded. What I am saying is that we should not cast such aspersions on hon members. Please, you are wasting the time of the House. [Interjections.]
Let us deal with one order first, Mr Mashile. Sit down. Let us deal with one order. Mr Sinclair, are you going to respond?
That will be a problem, Chair. He wants to rely on the system ... [Inaudible.]
I have already said that. Mr Sinclair? [Interjections.]
Sir, unfortunately, I cannot withdraw something when I am not sure of the context in which it is being raised. That is my only reason, but if you want me to withdraw to take the process forward, I will do so.
Thank you very much. You withdraw that remark. Okay. Let's move on. Hon Van Lingen?
Chairperson, on a point of order: A while ago, the very same hon Tau accused our leader of being a Nazi and we had to go and buy the CDs and get the verbatim record, so your ruling should be the same. [Interjections.]
Hon Van Lingen! Order! I have made a ruling on that issue. Mr Sinclair has apologised. [Interjections.] Order! Order, hon members! Members, take your seats. The ruling has been made. The matter is closed. Let's move forward with our business.
Division demanded.
The Council divided:
AYES - 32: Adams, F; Boroto, MG DV; Bloem,DV; Chaane, TE; de Beer, CJ; Dikgale, MC; Feldman, DB; Gamede, DD; Jacobs, MP; Mabe, BP; Mabija, L; Magadla, NW; Makhubela, MW; Makhunyane, T; Mashile, BL; Matila, AG; Mazosiwe, S; Mlenzana, Z; Mncube, BV; Mnguni, BA; Mofokeng, TMH; Mokgoro, GG; Montsitsi, SD; Nesi, B; Ntwanambi, ND; Nyambi, AJ; Nzimande, LPM; Qikani, AND; Rantho, DZ; Rasmeni, RN; Sibande, MP; Tau, RJ.
NOES - 11: Abrahams, BL; Bekker, JM; de Villiers, MJR; Faber, WF; Groenewald, HB; Gunda, JJ; Joseph, D; Lees, RA; Manzini, VM; Van Lingen, EC; Worth, DA.
Vote accordingly agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).
The staff will give me the results. I will now announce the results. In favour: 32; against: 11. Therefore Vote 8 is agreed to. We now go to Vote 9. Mr Nyambi?
Chairperson, I do respect your ruling, but some of us are not taking kindly to just passing something for the sake of it. The insult is still continuing on this side, and it might lead to something else that will turn ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.] The hon Gunda wanted to address you. This is because, even now, we are still being insulted. To some of us, apartheid ... [Inaudible.]
Who is insulting you?
The very same Mr Sinclair! He's justifying what he said.
What is his insult about now?
He says that he stood by it for the sake of progress. The hon Gunda was prepared to clarify it for you because almost all the people who are on this side would have heard what he said.
Mr Nyambi, could you sit down? I have ruled on that matter. Let's move on to Vote No 9.
Vote No 9 - Government Communication and Information System - put:
Declaration of vote:
Thank you very much, Chairperson. [Interjections.]
Mr Gunda and Mr Sinclair, I will chase both of you out of the House if you continue to dishonour this House! Both of you will leave the House! [Interjections.] Could you continue, hon Bloem?
Chairperson, I will support that because we are dealing with very serious issues here and I hope that members will behave.
Yes, continue, hon Bloem.
Chairperson, Cope will not support Vote No 9. This is a very sensitive department, but the manner in which the spokesperson handles and behaves himself is of serious concern to us. We are referring here to Mr Jimmy Manyi. This person's attitude is totally out of order. He is intolerant, arrogant and is causing unnecessary tension between the different race groups. We believe taxpayers' money can be spent more productively. We are not supporting this Vote. Thank you very much.
Mr Bloem, we must be careful about attacking officials because they cannot defend themselves in the House. Please be careful about that.
Chairperson, I agree. Let me withdraw the name. I am saying "the person". I withdraw the name.
Okay
Thank you very much.
All right. Are there any further declarations? No.
Vote agreed to (Congress of the People, Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).
Vote No 10 - National Treasury - put:
Are there any declarations? Hon Commissioner?
Declarations of vote:
Chair, we support the Vote but we do have the following to say about National Treasury. When we visit the provinces we find that all provincial treasuries have a problem. This means there is no co- ordination. They must definitely try to adhere to ... [Inaudible.] ... to assist these people.
They are pumping in money, but the money is not being spent and one finds that when there is what we call the - Wat is dit? [What is that?] - no, no, if one has to carry the money over to the following year? [Interjections.] Yes, the rollover ... [Interjections.] [Laughter.] Okay, but do you understand me, ANC? [Laughter.] [Interjections.]
Okay, okay! Order!
Members of the ruling party, try to listen! [Interjections.] Look at what happened in Limpopo, the Free State and Gauteng. [Interjections.] Those people went ... [Inaudible.] ... until section 100 is being implemented to the other party. It is because of the National Treasury. [Interjections.] They must wake up and try to get their office in order. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
Order! Is there any ... Mr Manzini. Which party is that? Oh, Mr Commissioner is from Cope. Why am I confusing members? Okay, Mr Manzini?
Mnr die Voorsitter ... [Chairperson ...] [Interjections.]
Continue, Mr Manzini. Order, hon members!
Die herstrukturering van die voormalige Nasionale Intelligensie Agentskap, NIA ... [Tussenwerpsels.] ... insluitend die SA Geheimediens, Sass, en die ander entiteite, naamlik Electronic Communications Security, Comsec, en die akademie, na een entiteit, naamlik die State Security Agency, het onder meer ten doel gehad om 'n besparing op die begrotings teweeg te bring. [Tussenwerpsels.]
Een van die vooruitsigte was 'n besparing op personeel. Daarenteen dien die nuwe Wysigingswetsontwerp op Algemene Intelligensiewetgewing voor die ad hoc-komitee. Die sukses van die Minister van Staatsveiligheid se herstruktureringsproses, om op personeeluitgawes te bespaar en om onder meer die duplisering van dienste te vermy, kan nie sonder 'n eie begrotingspos vir staatveiligheid gemeet word nie. Daarmee saam is die proses ook nog nie ten volle afgehandel nie. [Tussenwerpsels.]
Aangesien die voorgestelde begroting nie enige noemenswaardige besparing teweegbring nie, en dus ook nie meetbaar is nie, kan die DA nie die begroting steun nie. Baie dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Mr V M MANZINI: The restructuring of the National Intelligence Agency, NIA ... [Interjections.] ... including the SA Secret Service, Sass, and the other entities, namely Electronic Communications Security, Comsec, and the academy, into one entity, the State Security Agency, had as its object, amongst others, to effect a saving on the budgets. [Interjections.]
One of the prospects was a saving on personnel. On the other hand, the new General Intelligence Laws Amendment Bill [B25-11] is now before the ad hoc committee. The success of the restructuring process by the Minister of State Security to save on personnel expenditure and to avoid, amongst others the duplication of services, cannot be measured without a separate Budget Vote for state security. Concomitant with that, the process also has not yet been completely finalised. [Interjections.]
As the proposed budget does not effect any significant saving, and therefore is not measureable either, the DA cannot support this budget. Thank you.]
Hon Freddie? Order, order, Mr Manzini!
Hon Chair, the member is ... [Inaudible.] ... Intelligence! [Interjections.] [Laughter.]
The member is what?
The member is talking about National Intelligence, not National Treasury. [Laughter.] [Interjections.] He spoke about National Intelligence. [Laughter.]
Take your seat, Mr Adams. [Laughter.] Yes, Mrs van Lingen? Are you standing up on a point of order? There's no speaker on the floor. [Laughter.]
Chairperson, in the National Assembly, National Treasury had two declarations listed: one for Intelligence and one for National Treasury. [Interjections.] Unfortunately, in this particular case, we have not been given the opportunity for the hon Lees to present our declaration on the National Treasury Vote. So I'm asking that you withdraw the declaration made by the hon Manzini on our behalf ... [Interjections.] ... and that a proper one be done by the hon Lees. [Interjections.]
Order! Order! Order! Ms Van Lingen, if you check the schedule with regard to the issue you are raising, you will see that everything is included in one Vote. So we are dealing with one Vote. There's no problem if you want to withdraw the declaration that has been made by Mr Manzini. [Interjections.]
... [Inaudible.] ... hon Lees's proper one. [Interjections.]
Pardon? [Interjections.]
Chairperson ... [Interjections.]
Order! I can't hear, hon members! [Interjections.]
Chair, Mr Manzini presented the wrong declaration. [Interjections.] The hon Lees is supposed to do that.
No, no, unfortunately I cannot do that. You should have sorted that out yourselves. [Interjections.] Order! Order! We will now go to the voting on Vote No 10. [Interjections.]
I'm sorry, hon Chaane, they say that you want to make a declaration. Are you making a declaration? Is it Charl De Beer? No? Okay. Mr Chaane, are you making a declaration? You will be given time.
Chair, in response to the declaration by Cope, I rise on behalf of the ANC to indicate that all the departments are equal in our government, and National Treasury does not have supervisory powers over other departments. However, in the spirit of intergovernmental relations, it can only engage other parties as to how far they can do certain things in compliance with the law.
One would advise the hon Makhubela to perhaps familiarise himself with the roles and responsibilities of the National Treasury.
With regard to the declaration by the other colleague, it is quite clear that it was irrelevant and has been withdrawn.
I would like to conclude by stating this truth: If one wanted to find out what the quality of the fabric of one's garment was, one would have to wash it over and over. It will soon shed its colour and show its true colour and quality. That is becoming true of the DA. I thank you. [Interjections.]
Voting will commence on Vote No 10.
Division demanded. The Council divided:
AYES - 33 Adams, F; Bloem, DV; Boroto, MG; Chaane, TE; de Beer, CJ; Dikgale, MC; Feldman, DB; Gamede, DD, Jacobs, MP; Mabe, BP; Mabija, L; Magadla, NW; Makhubela, MW; Makhunyane, T; Mashile, BL; Matila, AG; Mazosiwe, S; Mlenzana, Z ; Mncube, BV; Mnguni, BA; Mofokeng, TMH; Mokgoro, GG; Montsitsi, SD; Nesi, B; Ntwanambi, ND; Nyambi, AJ; Nzimande, LPM; Qikani, AND; Rantho, DZ; Rasmeni, RN; Sibande, MP; Sinclair, KA; Tau,