Madam Deputy Chairperson, yes, the Department of Justice is considering introducing some stringent legislation to deal with hate crimes, hate speech and discrimination. The department is in the process of finalising a draft policy framework with a view to developing measures to combat hate crimes, hate speech and other forms of unfair discrimination.
In this regard the department has initiated research into the development of legislation that will introduce the concept of hate crime into our criminal law. Also the concept of hate speech will be refined in a way that reflects South Africa's commitment to high standards of free expression, while at the same time combating hate speech, making it a crime, and possibly making other forms of unfair discrimination a crime.
Regarding the issue of bail, the bail procedures under sections 60(1) and 60(11) of the Criminal Procedure Act of 1977 are structured in such a way as to impose different legal tests in relation to the question of whether an accused should be released on bail, pending his or her trial and depending on the seriousness of the offence with which he or she is charged. The seriousness of the charge is determined by the Schedule to the Act under which it falls. As matters stand, the Schedule to the Criminal Procedure Act under which a charge falls for the purpose of determining the relevant bail tests is not affected by the fact that the crime in question is a hate crime.
The draft policy framework intends to address this issue by proposing appropriate amendments to the Schedules to the Criminal Procedure Act in order to ensure that all hate crimes, irrespective of their nature, fall within Schedule 6, if not Schedule 5.
The department will be submitting the draft policy framework to the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security cluster in order to elicit comments and inputs on the draft policy proposals, whereafter I will proceed to commence with a public participation process. Thank you, Chairperson.
Deputy Chair, in the context of the statement made that confirmed racist behaviour should be a punishable crime in the context of our racial history, I would like to know from the Minister why we are not able to establish rehabilitation centres for those people who step over the line. In regard to racist behaviour in the context of our history, where people were misled about whether it was wrong, I would promote rehabilitation centres before we punish people for that behaviour. [Interjections.]
I don't know how one rehabilitates a racist. I think this law will go a long way towards punishing all those who want to return us to the dark days of apartheid. We know the trauma and the crises that the system of apartheid created, not only in South Africa, but also in neighbouring states. That is why the UN declared apartheid a crime against humanity and a threat to world peace. So this proposal that we will put forward is meant to ensure that those people who continue to practise hate crimes and other intolerances are in jail, as they belong there.
Deputy Chairperson, in regard to the remarks that the Minister has made specifically in relation to this question, can one then assume that the same would be applicable, for instance, to a song like Kill the Boer, which was sung by the youth leader who has now been ... [Inaudible.] Thank you. [Interjections.]
Hon member, we are not going to entertain that one, because it was dealt with by the courts and ... [Interjections.] Please, please, with due respect, I listened to you; could you do the same? Really, we don't have to drag other people back to that platform. That is my request to you. Thank you. Next answer.
Deputy Chair, I rise on a point of order: I am back to the issue of the principle that you are not objective in how you deal with questions that we pose. It is really a very serious matter, the way that you suppress ... [Inaudible.]
Hon member, will you please take your seat? We are not going to go back to the archives to pull out that record and restart the case here. We are asking the Ministers to answer questions because we are open to learning, but the case that you are bringing up right now does not belong here.
But, with due respect, hon Deputy Chairperson ...
I do respect you. However, I have made a ruling; please, hon member, will you take your seat?
Deputy Chairperson, in that case I will follow the example of hon Bloem, and I will leave the House, because you are suppressing open ... [Inaudible.]
Hon member, I am not suppressing anything. This is irrelevant.
It is not irrelevant.
Hon Minister, please answer the next question.
Bloem is waiting for you!
Yes, he is waiting; we are going to court. Bye-bye. [Laughter.]
You want to go to court? I'll meet you there. [Interjections.]
Recent statements by members of judiciary and department's engagement with members of judiciary regarding this matter 20. Mr Z Mlenzana (Cope) asked the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development: (1) Whether he has been informed of the recent statements by members of the judiciary (details furnished); if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details;
(2) whether his department will engage with members of the judiciary regarding this matter; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? CO78E
Deputy Chairperson, yes, the judges' recent statements have been brought to my attention by the Chief Justice, and they were also raised at the recent heads of court meeting of 10 February this year.
The answer to the second part of the question is yes, there are ongoing discussions with the judiciary ... [Interjections.]
Sorry, Minister. Hon members, can we listen to what is being said here, so that we will not be putting follow-up questions that are about something that is being discussed right now? Thank you.
I was saying that the hon member may be aware of the media statement issued by the Chief Justice after my meeting with the heads of court in February this year, where he expressed the judges' willingness and eagerness to declare their own financial interests, but said that they were of the view that the duty to declare interests should not be extended to their spouses and family members.
The hon member may also be aware that Parliament is considering the Regulations on Judges' Disclosure of Registrable Interests, which I tabled in Parliament during November 2010. I will continue to engage with the leadership of the judiciary before the regulations are finalised by Parliament, and I am very optimistic that these regulations will be finalised soon. Thank you.
Details relating to efforts to increase number of women judges on Bench and African women in entire judiciary system, and breakdown of percentages in changes experienced
21. Mr Z Mlenzana (Cope) asked the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development:
(1) Whether his department has made an effort to increase the number of (a) women judges on the Bench and (b) African women in the entire judiciary system; if not, why not; if so, what are the proportional changes experienced in each case during the period 1 January 2009 up to 31 December 2011;
(2) whether he will provide a breakdown of the total (a) number and (b) percentages in the changes experienced; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? CO79E
Deputy Chairperson, the hon member has requested to know whether the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development has made an effort to increase the number of women judges and African women in the judicial system. In this regard it is important to point out that judges are appointed by the President following recommendations by the Judicial Service Commission, whilst magistrates are appointed by the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development following recommendations by the Magistrates' Commission.
As the hon member is aware, members of the legislature also serve on these statutory bodies. The hon Mr Nick Koornhof is a member of the Judicial Service Commission, whilst the hon Mr Onell de Beer is a member of the Magistrates' Commission. The said hon members would, no doubt, attest to the fact that the need for the judiciary to reflect broadly the race and gender composition of South Africa is an important constitutional imperative that the Judicial Service Commission and the Magistrates' Commission take into account in considering suitable candidates for appointment to the Bench.
Although progress has been made, much more needs to be done in regard to gender representivity on the bench. It is, therefore, essential for women to be given the necessary exposure for appointment to the Bench. In this regard, the department has adopted a policy to ensure that a significant part of state legal work is allocated to previously disadvantaged practitioners and firms. With the assistance of the heads of court we are also increasing the number of females appointed as acting judges and acting magistrates. The training programmes developed by the SA Judicial Education Institute will no doubt further assist in broadening the pool of female candidates for possible appointment to the Bench.
I also include the following facts. There were 42 women judges appointed to the Bench on 1 January 2009. Thereafter the number increased to 65 women by 31 December 2011. During this period some of the women judges retired, passed away, or were appointed to higher positions. The statistics regarding the total number of women judges in South Africa are as follows: As I have indicated, on 1 January 2009 there were 42, and at the end of 2011 there were 65, which is an increase of 23, making a total of over 35%.
In respect of magistrates, 628 women magistrates were appointed to the Bench as at 1 January 2009. Thereafter the number increased to 727 women magistrates at the end of 2011. During that period some of the women magistrates retired, passed away or were appointed to higher positions. The statistics indicate, as I have said, that on 1 January 2009 there were 628, and at the end of December 2011 there were 727 women magistrates, which is an increase of 99. But, in terms of percentage increase, it is a mere 14%. We still have a long way to go in order to ensure that more women magistrates are appointed. Thank you.
Thank you, Deputy Chairperson. Thank you, Minister, for the response, particularly the very clear breakdown. I would like to check something with the Minister. Notwithstanding the clarity that the Minister has given, that it is not the responsibility of the department per se to employ people, is there no way in which the department could set targets as we go forward for the commissions which do the recruitment? Thank you.
I think the hon member should be aware that the appointment procedure is laid down in the Constitution and the law. So we as a department cannot act on our own - there is also the Judicial Service Commission and the Magistrates' Commission. Our responsibility as the executive and the department is to promote the further acceleration of transforming the landscape of judicial appointments. We endeavour, wherever we are, to promote women in particular. It is an embracing process that not only involves Justice on its own, but the judiciary as well.
That is why the training of judges, and - the point that I highlighted - also the pool from which judicial officers have to be appointed, must be nurtured. That is why we have a major programme in the department trying to make sure that we give work especially to previously disadvantaged practitioners, women in particular, in order to give them the possibility of ensuring that one day they can become members of the Bench, either as magistrates or as judges.
Deputy Chairperson, I would like to hear the Minister's comments, in relation to the main reply and the subsequent reply, concerning the matter of the magistrate in Gauteng who is female and disabled, and who had to take the Magistrates' Commission to court regarding her appointment - she won the case. Has the department learnt any lessons out of that, and are there any plans to work out proper equity plans with the commissions in regard to further engagements? Thank you, Chair.
We support that wholeheartedly, because this issue in regard to disabled people is a very important component of empowering them. We know that in the apartheid system there were no plans and no vision regarding how to promote and assist all people who were living with disabilities. So, that is part of the programme and plan of the department and, as a member of the Judicial Service Commission, as well as the Magistrates' Commission, we take that into account.
I think that that case is a lesson for all of us, that we ensure that we constantly promote the transformation of the landscape of our judiciary at all levels. Thank you.
Capacity of SAPS to fight organised crime, particularly in Gauteng, and details relating thereto
22. Mr D B Feldman (Cope) asked the Minister of Police:
Whether the SA Police Service is capable of dealing with organised crime in its current form, especially in Gauteng; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details?