Hon Speaker, hon members, when I announced the establishment of a commission of inquiry into allegations of fraud, corruption and impropriety or irregularity in the strategic defence procurement package in September 2011, I reiterated the importance of dealing decisively with the matter, which is, no doubt, of public interest. Consistent with this announcement, I will, on receipt of the commission's final report, deal with the said report in a manner that acknowledges both the public interest and the principles to which I am enjoined to give effect to constitutionally out of respect for the commission and the responsibility which is attached to their work and deliberations. I will not predict or prejudge the future. I will be guided by the recommendations of the report, including whether it should be made public or not. To do otherwise would unfairly prescribe to the commission the manner in which its recommendations should be framed. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
Order, hon members! Order!
Another cover-up.
Order, hon member! Is that a supplementary question, hon Leader of the Opposition?
It is, hon Speaker, thank you very much. Mr President, this saga has engulfed our country for over 10 years now and there is a great deal of public concern about the fact that this report will not be made public, because it might implicate senior members of the government, even senior members of your own Cabinet.
This will only cast further doubt about whether or not this government is committed to exposing corruption and to making South Africa a place that is not a destination for shady people to do shady business. I honestly believe that if you think that the public interest and the principles to which you are enjoined are the issue at heart, then you have to commit to this House that you will release the report and that you will make it public within a reasonable timeframe, say, three months, of it's being tabled to you, in order to give the public the assurance that this government will not tolerate corruption within its senior ranks. [Applause.]
Hon Speaker, the report is not yet done; it's not yet done. You know that people were saying I should investigate this arms deal. There was a big hullabaloo about it - lots of speeches. We then took a decision to set up a commission of inquiry. Now the commission of inquiry is just about to start and there is already a debate about what will happen. That's a debate of ... izangoma. Sekufanele sibhule manje. [Ubuwelewele.] Kufuneka sibhule sithi yizwa! Uma isiphumile, yizwa! [... witch doctors. We have to predict the future now. [Interjections.] We must launch an inquiry and then report back on the findings.] If hon members could wait until the report is done and there are clear recommendations that were made by the commission, you can then ask at that point what they are going to do with that report. The question would be very legitimate - much as the President will have to be guided by the recommendations. But to begin to debate that issue now ... [Interjections.]
Wubungoma lobo, kuthiwa asibhule manje sithi yizwa! [Ubuwelewele.] [That is being a witch doctor; we are now being asked to predict what the outcome will be. [Interjections.]]
Really, I don't see any logic in saying, if this happens, what would one do then. That is like going to the doctor and before you even know what the diagnosis is, you must discuss it and what you will do about it. I don't think that is fair. It's not fair. Thank you. [Applause.]
Speaker, hon President, my question is prompted by statements and responses given by former President Thabo Mbeki and yourself, sir, as the former Deputy President in this House on this issue.
As you crafted the terms of reference of this commission, sir, did you create room for Hansard to be consulted in order to cross-reference the outcome of the investigations and what was said before? I ask this question because the hon Lekota, who was the then Minister of Defence and now the leader of Cope, has put it on record in this House that ... [Interjections.]
Order! Order, hon members!
... he is prepared to subject himself to public scrutiny. Are you prepared to do the same, sir? [Applause.] [Interjections.]
Hon Speaker, we have set up a commission and the commission will have information before it, and it will have the kind of people who will be able to ask questions. Those people will have to go to the commission, whatever the question is. It could be Terror Lekota, who was the then Minister of Defence, now the leader of Cope, or Jabob Zuma, the Deputy President then and now the President. The fact of the matter is that this is a commission of the country that must get to the truth. Whoever will be called by the commission, will go. I don't think there is any difficulty regarding that.
Mr Speaker, Mr President, I think you are very right to say that the question by the hon Leader of the Opposition is a bit like calling for a premature diagnosis and prescription. [Interjections.] You are only visiting the doctor next week ... [Interjections.]
Order! Order!
... but I want to know from you today already - or she wants to know from you today already - what lifestyle changes you are planning to make; we don't even know whether you have cholesterol or whatever the case may be.
Nonetheless, we need to congratulate you on appointing this commission of inquiry into the arms deal ... [Interjections.]
Order, hon members! Order!
... and to ask you to please apply your mind to the contents of the commission's report, as you've indicated, before taking any action. Now, mindful of the risk of falling into same trap as the Leader of the Opposition, does the government plan any interim steps to make sure that we prevent future problems that may occur with the procurement of arms?
Thank you, hon member. Hon Speaker, certainly I think the arms deal in this country has been an experience that we must all learn from. In future, if we were to undertake such a task, we would certainly look at what happened in our experience and take the correct steps in order to eliminate some of the things that might have caused problems. There's no doubt about that. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr President, indeed the appointment of the commission is a decisive step. But I think we need to remind ourselves that this matter first surfaced in this House in December 2001, which is more than 10 years ago, when the joint investigation report was released. Now 10 years later, Mr President, we received a letter from Lieutenant- General Dramat, the head of priority crime, in which he indicated that there was a case which had been submitted to the prosecuting authority for a decision and that there was also a request for mutual legal assistance from abroad.
I would like to know, Mr Speaker, through you to the President, what your view will be of the actions such as these that we are told will be taken - should they be delayed, suspended or stopped completely while the commission takes another two years to release the report? Thank you.
Sorry, before you sit down, hon member, what is this action ... explain to me more clearly.
Thank you very much, with the Speaker's permission. Thank you, Mr President. In this letter it says the one case has now been submitted to the prosecuting authority for a decision whether or not to prosecute and/or advise on further investigation which may be required. The other case has also been referred to the prosecuting authority with the view to prosecutorial assistance being rendered in obtaining evidence from abroad through a request for mutual legal assistance. My question, through you, Mr Speaker, to the President, is: Should this kind of action, which was suggested by Lieutenant-General Dramat, be stopped, suspended or delayed whilst the commission is preparing its report, which they will release in two years' time? Thank you.
Hon Speaker, I don't know whether I should have a view about matters that relate to investigators and legal people who are writing letters to them. I don't think I am qualified to take that decision. That decision must be taken by the relevant authorities. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Access to quality education in Eastern Cape
3. Mrs J D Kilian (Cope) asked the President of the Republic:
With reference to his state of the nation address, what steps he intends taking to ensure that all stakeholders and their affiliates in the Eastern Cape commit themselves to providing learners with access to quality education? NO537E
Hon Speaker, a lot of progress has been made in stabilising the situation in the Eastern Cape education department. Government has gone out of its way to ensure that all the issues of concern raised by our stakeholders are seriously considered in our quest to improve the standard of education in the province.
In this regard, and through our Quality Learning and Teaching Campaign, we have a social compact with teacher unions and school governing bodies to ensure that teachers are in class, on time, with a textbook, and teaching. Likewise, learners must arrive at school on time, disciplined and ready to learn.
School governing bodies must ensure that their governance practices support schools to function properly, and that an environment conducive to teaching and learning is created.
We are working closely with all stakeholders to improve these outcomes and we are making progress. For example, the Eastern Cape provincial government and the SA Democratic Teachers Union, Sadtu, signed an agreement which covers a number of aspects that seek to normalise the situation.
The agreement signed on 8 February this year was reached following a meeting between the Premier of the Eastern Cape, members of her executive council and Cosatu leadership. One of the critical areas that all parties agreed on is the reinstatement of temporary teachers by the provincial education department.
Sadtu agreed to end the go-slow and picketing that they had embarked on in an effort to voice and demonstrate their concerns. This decision was communicated to all the provincial structures of the union in order to ensure that the strike action was halted and teaching resumed.
All parties were accordingly in harmony with the view that relations needed to be normalised urgently so that the commitments in the agreement could be achieved. Therefore, the continued and active participation of all stakeholders, including teacher unions, school governing bodies, communities and others with a vested interest in the provision of quality education remains absolutely critical.
Working together, we will ensure that the right of children to quality education is protected at all times. I thank you, hon Speaker.
Order! I thank the hon President. Is there a supplementary question? Hon Kilian?
Yes, thank you, Speaker. Hon President, there seems to be a disjuncture between what this House is receiving in terms of information and undertakings, also from your office, and what is really happening at grass-roots level in the Eastern Cape.
As I stand here today, those temporary teachers have not been appointed. Five thousand teacher vacancies still exist. The education system is nearing the end of its first term. We lost seven million teaching hours during the Cosatu strike action, or go-slow action, and the issue here is: Does the Minister of Basic Education really have your full support for her intervention? She wanted to move in to clean out the education department, to remove the director-general, to have the teachers appointed, to provide the textbooks, but she was stopped short.
The National Planning Commission indicates that the co-operation of teacher unions is a key component of turning the education system around. How will you ensure that we take the necessary steps to get Cosatu and everybody on board, including the director-general of education for the Eastern Cape and the Eastern Cape ANC structure, so that we can attend to the critical shortage of teachers in that province? Thank you. [Time expired.] [Interjections.]
Thank you, hon Speaker. I am sure the hon member is aware that we have taken measures. I have just indicated what measures we have taken. We have taken measures precisely because there was a problem. There have been negotiations, an agreement has been reached and the agreement is being implemented. Of course, the Minister has my full support. This is not just an individual matter; government support is given to the department. So, we have taken measures. If you ask what measures we are going to take, we have taken measures. That is why there is an agreement. All we are looking at now is the implementation of the agreement which has begun, including the issue of the head of department. So, we have taken measures. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Mr Speaker and hon President, in light of the continual interventions by the national government in some of the poorly performing provinces, has the time not come for the country to either review the powers provinces possess in this quasi-federal provincial government system, or even consider doing away with this expensive system of government?
Hon Speaker, well, that could be a political opinion on whether the time has come or not. Politicians have views about everything and the views of politicians are not always the same. So people could have views about whether it is time, or they are necessary; whatever.
The hon member, I think, should know that democracy is not cheap. It is very expensive and very costly, and it is time-consuming because you have to negotiate and consult to reach consensus or agreement with the majority.
The provinces came into being as a result of a very serious discussion about what happens to power in a state. Should it be centralised in one place and therefore the people on lower levels have no role to play, or should we have a system that devolves power so that people at different levels are able to participate in decision-making? This is what gave birth to nine provinces instead of the four provinces we had before, which were former republics.
So, it was a very deep discussion in terms of how democracy must be exercised in this country. That is why we ended up with three tiers of government. You will have to go back to that discussion and convince people that, democratically, you need to centralise power and not to devolve power. That is a serious democratic issue and we have different understandings as to what one should do with power. Should it reside in Pretoria, or should it be in provinces as well as in local government?
I think we should not confuse some of the difficulties in terms of the implementation and, in a sense, the running of the different levels of government with the existence of the provinces. This gives people at every level an opportunity to take decisions about their issues and about the people they know better.
I thank the hon the President. [Applause.] May I take this opportunity to remind the hon members that a follow-up question is actually what it is supposed to mean: a follow-up question. It is not an opportunity to ask new questions. It must be a follow-up question. Let's not smuggle in new questions.
Hon Speaker, hon President, concerning the Eastern Cape, unfortunately, there is no izwangoma [obedience]. The situation is real. In the Eastern Cape we have a situation in which the MEC is prevented by a union member from visiting the school. We have a situation where teachers are refusing to embark on the programmes aimed at improving the quality of education. This is the situation in the Eastern Cape.
I hear the President saying there are measures that have been taken. I hear the President saying that there is a February agreement, but at the heart of all this there is the old agreement, which is still there, which stipulates that there must be co-governance between the union and the department. The officials of the department are held to ransom by the unions. They can't act to implement the very same measures and directives from the national department. Are we going to sacrifice thousands of lives of the ... [Inaudible.] ... on the altar ... [Inaudible.]
Hon member, your time has expired. May I also remind members that we can actually hear you better if you speak into the microphone.
Hon Speaker, I have just explained in this House that there is an agreement that has been reached to deal with the challenges in the Eastern Cape. The fact that the national government took measures to intervene and the fact that I am saying there have been discussions and that there is now an agreement means there were problems. No one is saying there were no problems in the Eastern Cape; those problems are being addressed. The people who reached an agreement with government - the teachers - are the very teachers who agreed that there must be a change in the situation and they will co-operate with the government.
So, the measures taken have been agreed to. So, really, as a result of the problems we had we had to meet and have discussions. To ask the question as if nothing has happened while I am saying these matters have been discussed and agreed to and implementation has taken place, including the question of the head of department who has been a subject of discussion, means that I have in fact answered the question. I can't answer the question as if these kinds of activities have not taken place. They have, and agreements are being implemented in the Eastern Cape.
Thank you, Speaker. Hon President, I appreciate what you have been saying about agreements that have been reached. This is not the first time that agreements have been reached. In the past some agreements were not honoured.
Government has made commitments in that the ability of children to read and write is going to be improved. It is not happening. Today, according to the latest reports, the Eastern Cape has the highest absenteeism in the country. Teachers are spending an average of three and a half hours in class teaching, thereby undermining the seven-hour rule.
What I want to know from the President is: In spite of the agreements that have been made, does government have a plan or another plan, because the other plans did not work. Does government have a plan this time that will work in order to enforce the seven-hour rule so that teachers will be in class to teach our children?
The sad thing is to hear that parents are sacrificing money to send their children to the Western Cape to get better education because teachers in the Eastern Cape are failing the parents. Is there something new that government is going to do? [Applause.]
Well, hon Speaker, because this is Parliament, I can repeat the answer. The members have the privilege to ask the same question, and I will give the same answer. [Laughter.] This is because nobody says there were no problems in the Eastern Cape, and these have been discussed. That is the reason why the national government had to intervene, precisely because there were problems.
These have been discussed; agreements have been reached. The very teachers have now agreed that they are going to go back to class and teach. We are at a point where they are now busy implementing the agreement. How can we have another plan when we have a plan that we are implementing? It is unfair to ask if we have another plan. We have a plan that we are implementing, which is based on the agreement. That is what is happening. [Applause.]
Progress with criminal justice system transformation
4. Ms W Ngwenya (ANC) asked the President of the Republic:
1) How far has the process of establishing a transformed, integrated, modernised, resourced and well-managed criminal justice system progressed;
2) whether he has set any time frames for specific projects in this process; if not, why not; if so, (a) what are the timeframes in each case and (b) are the relevant details in each case?