Hon members, I wish to thank parties for advising staff on which Votes they will record their objections and on which they intend dividing. This information will greatly assist the process this afternoon. Hon members, the proceedings will initially take the form of a question-and-answer session. I shall put each Vote in respect of which adjustments have been made in turn, whereupon members will have the opportunity to ask questions of the relevant Minister in respect of these adjustments. Each party has been allocated a global time for all Votes. Once a party's time has expired, they will not be allowed to put further questions.
Members must please press the "to talk" button if they wish to ask a question. Hon members should please wait until I recognise them before putting their question.
Vote No 1 - Presidency - put.
House Chairperson, November marks six months that the National Youth Development Agency has been without a national board. With youth unemployment continuing to spiral out of control it is simply unthinkable that billions of rand meant for youth development are being pumped into an agency that has not demonstrated that it is able to deliver on its mandate, and has now remained boardless for over half a year.
A letter sent by the DA youth to the President in August imploring him to reject the proposed ANC-aligned board candidates and appoint politically neutral board members remains unanswered.
The NYDA remains without a board, and this is a concern to us. It also slips the youth into deep crisis every day. Is this yet another decision that the President is putting on hold to protect his political career until after Mangaung? There can be no other compelling reason as to why NYDA would be left without a national board for so long. We saw it with the youth wage subsidy, regarding which the President is allowing a deadlock to persist while kowtowing to the Congress of SA Trade Unions, Cosatu, and now we see this with NYDA as well.
President Jacob Zuma is quite happy to let South Africa's youth burn to protect his own political career. These are actions by the President to save him in December, but come 2014, the President's complete disregard of the youth of South Africa will not be forgotten. Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY - PERFORMANCE MONITORING, EVALUATION AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Chair, a few days ago there was a question from Cope on this matter, which we responded to and which was exactly the same question. It is unfortunate that the member who was in the House, if I recall, decides to misrepresent the facts. I'm quite aware that members of the House passed a law, which prescribes how the board of the National Youth Development Agency is supposed to be appointed.
In November last year, we advised Parliament to start the process of appointing the board. Parliament advertised and nominations were made. Parliament appointed a joint interim committee of the two Houses to consider the applications. In terms of that process, they went through the interviews. The end product of that process has never been presented to the President until today. So it cannot be said that the President doesn't want to appoint the members of the board, because Parliament has not yet finished its processes.
The President appoints board members of the NYDA on the advice of Parliament, once Parliament has finished its process and submitted the list. Therefore, the process of appointing the board of the NYDA is still within the parliamentary system, and not in the Presidency or anywhere in government. Thank you. [Applause.]
House Chair, there is R20 million which we are supposed to vote for relating to new legal cases. I just want to check whether, even after being appointed as the legal adviser of the President, we still have to pay Mr Hulley another R20 million, or are there any other cases for which we are now paying? The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY - PERFORMANCE MONITORING, EVALUATION AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, there is no indication that that money is to pay Mr Hulley. As you know, as the Presidency we are responsible for the affairs of both the sitting heads of state, the deputy and the former - all of them. Secondly, we are responsible for administering a number of pieces of legislation, which end up in litigation from time to time. Therefore, we have to have in our budget a sufficient amount of money to be able to deal with all these issues including the commissions which are being appointed as we go along. That amount of money is basically meant for those purposes, not to pay Mr Hulley.
Vote No 3 - Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs - put.
House Chairperson, we just want to ask the hon Minister if the additional money that will be voted for, will assist him in improving the management within his department, specifically as far as the critical vacancies are concerned, and how will he ensure that we will have value for money from additional appointments made? Will he make sure that we have the necessary skills and experience to really manage an effective department? Thank you.
I don't see the Minister. Is the Minister in the Presidency going to reply to the question on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs as well? The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY - PERFORMANCE MONITORING, EVALUATION, AND ADMINISTRATION: Yes, Chairperson. The Minister requested me to respond on his behalf. The functioning of the department is a critical matter, particularly if we have to provide the services to various municipalities. If you look into the requests, which have been made in terms of this budget, most of them are related to virements within the department to shift funds from one function to the other in order to strengthen the capacity in those various areas.
We, however, have a virement, which is going to deal specifically with assisting the municipalities to manage their affairs properly. You are correct in that we are taking steps to ensure that the vacancies and all the things that are necessary are done to improve the functioning of the department. Thank you.
Vote No 7 - Public Works - put.
House Chairperson, in his state of the nation address, President Jacob Zuma stressed the serious need for infrastructure development. This underlines the necessity that the Department of Public Works should have spent at least 50% of its budget on infrastructure by the end of September 2012. Yet, according to the department's second quarterly report, the actual expenditure by the end of September was only 19% of the budget. That means that 31% of the funds for infrastructure were not used. Minister, why did you not utilise these budget funds?
House Chairperson, the hon member, fortunately, is part of the portfolio committee where we have been accounting for why there have been problems of underexpenditure. We had indicated that our priority was to boost the capacity in the built environment in the department, and we had to prioritise that particular programme even the restructuring.
The request we have made at the level of Treasury is to start talking about the capacity, especially in the areas of the built environment so that we are able to spend properly when we deal with mega projects. Also, with regard to the question of property management, we talked about the proper skills - property experts - that would be able to spend accordingly. We cannot just spend for the sake of spending. We need to spend accordingly, and we need the right people to do so. Thank you.
House Chairperson, my question to the Minister is about the intended appointment of 200 people - engineers and so on. Does that mean the current employed people in the department are not capacitated enough to execute the jobs required of them?
Secondly, regarding the appointment of PricewaterhouseCoopers, are you sure, Minister, that we will ultimately have an asset register in this country, because we have been battling with having an asset register for nearly 20 years now? Thirdly, with regard to the funerals declared presidential funerals by the Presidency, when are we going to stop instructing the department to pay for those funerals declared presidential funerals? Thanks, Chair.
There is no such thing as presidential funerals. There are state funerals, which are catered for in terms of Public Works. Secondly, the asset register is on course. It is in stages, and I can guarantee you that in the next year you will have an asset register. We have even reported to the portfolio committee - before you make a lot of noise, hon Kganare - that we have finished the first stage. We are in the second stage of the actual verification. I need to correct you: PricewaterhouseCoopers is not dealing with the matter; Ernst & Young is dealing with it.
Thirdly, the built environment's technical people are the people we are trying to recruit. You would appreciate that these people are easily attracted to the private sector. We are trying to attract those people. And, indeed, the fact that there are these problems is because of lack of capacity, and we have been open about that. Thank you.
Vote No 8 - Women, Children and People with Disabilities - put.
Thank you, hon Chairperson. Minister, your department's budget has increased by R20 million, which is an increase of 10% in your budget. Of this, R11,5 million goes to staff salaries or administration, and R7 million goes to the establishment of a new office for the Deputy Minister. How can you justify these amounts, given the very difficult financial situation in our country and the fact that this money could be better utilised to improve the lives of vulnerable women, children and people with disabilities?
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: Hon Chair, thank you very much for the question. I think the hon member is very aware that the department has been understaffed since the beginning and, therefore, this allocation had to assist us to ensure that we had the critical staff we require in the department. The Deputy Minister was appointed last year in November and, of course, the department did not have a Deputy Minister before then. The Deputy Minister is doing valuable work in the department, but the DA has complained for a long time that we are not reaching out to the people we are mandated to serve. The President saw that we needed a Deputy Minister that would assist us. The Minister is doing valuable work in the area of HIV and Aids, reaching all three sectors in that regard; in the area of rural development; and in ensuring that we service the disability sector with the required expertise. I therefore want to assure the hon member that this amount will be spent very wisely and efficiently to the benefit of the people of South Africa. Nothing will go into anyone's pocket. Thank you, Chairperson.
Thank you very much, Chairperson, and thank you, Minister. The IFP supports the adjustment to Vote No 8. However, Minister, I just wish to seek some clarity with regard to your annual report. The additional funding, I argue, might not have necessary had payouts of R26 million for five individuals and performance bonuses of R9 million and R4 million, as per page 171 and page 168 respectively of the annual report, not been made.
If this information is indeed correct, what warranted these huge payouts, considering that the department did not meet some of its targets? This also begs the question: How much were these individuals earning in the first place to receive such enormous leave payouts at the termination of their service? The two performance bonuses alone, Minister, amount to more than 50% of the adjustment, and I just want to seek clarity on this matter. I thank you.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: Chairperson, no-one was paid R6 million or whatever. The amount that was paid was for people that resigned and people whose contracts had expired. Those people had to be paid out for leave or for the leave days that they did not take. No-one was paid more than R6 000. I want to say that if there is anywhere in the report where it is stated that R6 million - or whatever millions - was paid out, that is indeed a printing mistake. I want to apologise for that. Thank you, Chairperson.
Hon Chairperson, the Department of Women, Children and People with Disabilities has a huge role to play of co-ordination, evaluation and monitoring. It has to oversee the implementation of progress on policies by all departments that deal with the issues of women, children and people with disabilities. It is therefore unacceptable for the hon Swart from the DA to stand here and suggest that the department should not be funded. Hon Minister, would you agree with me when I say that this department is actually underfunded?
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you, Chairperson, and thanks for the question. I think I have reported previously that we are running the department with a skeletal staff of about 50% of what the Department of Public Service and Administration said is required. We are also unable to serve and service or do some of our responsibilities because of a lack of funding. I want to add that we have reported on these matters to the portfolio committee, and the portfolio committee agrees with the department that we are indeed underfunded. I believe that this funding will assist us to go a long way in turning around the department. I thank you, Chairperson.
Vote No 10 - National Treasury - put.
Thanks, House Chairperson. Hon Minister, there are two main changes to the Vote. The first is that R408 million was underspent in the Jobs Fund. Nothing matters more than job creation, but 40% underspending for the year points to seriously bad planning in forecasting. How did this happen?
The second item is R4 billion more for Public Sector salaries. In the Budget Policy Statement, you said that government would take a more deliberate approach to managing overall employment and curtail growth in personnel numbers of the Public Service. How will this approach work?
House Chairperson, the hon member knows the answers to both the questions. I am just wondering whether I should take up the time of this House. But I will, nonetheless, respond. The Jobs Fund, as the hon Harris knows, is a new fund. It has already gone through two windows of applications, and the third one is about to be initiated. To date or up to the first window, some 39 projects have been approved, and R1,8 billion has been assigned. We also had a co-investment of R1,7 billion. So that gives us about R3,5 billion in terms of the collective investment in creating jobs. What we will have, as the process settles down, is a quicker processing of the applications, which is the assurance that we have given the committee. With regard to Public Sector salaries, we have a three-year deal. In the outer years, we have a CPI plus 1% arrangement. That, notwithstanding our earlier views on this matter, gives us some stability in terms of what we can expect and what we need to budget. So, we had to find the extra money. Fortunately, we did make provisions for these surprise factors, partly in the contingency amount, but also through various forms of savings and reprioritisation, as I explained earlier.
The agreement I have with the Minister of the Public Service and Administration is that we will now look into the R300-billion odd that we spent on Public Sector salaries and see where the further savings can, in fact, be made. Secondly, we have said that we do not want any more appointments in administrative functions in the Public Service. Thirdly, those appointments that need to be made need to be made in respect of frontline service delivery staff - teachers, doctors, etc. And, fourthly, there is still much work to do in terms of so-called surplus stuff that we have in certain categories in some of the provinces. Lastly, we will begin to work harder at reintroducing what was called the "Old chapter J" and put more controls in place before appointments can be made. Thank you. Vote No 11 - Public Enterprises - put.
House Chairperson, could the Minister please explain how we can be expected to vote in favour of proposals for the medium-term budget following the Minister pushing for and approving a R5-billion guarantee for SA Airways, circumventing the normal processes of government, without the airline having completed a turnaround strategy? Thank you.
House Chairperson, the R5-billion guarantee request that was made by SAA was absolutely necessary ... [Interjections.] ... in order to provide our airline with the resources it requires both for it to develop the turnaround strategy and to implement it.
Order, hon members! I find it very difficult to follow the Minister if you continually interject. A question was asked. Let's afford the hon Minister a chance to reply. You may proceed, hon Minister.
Thank you. The fundamental issue being raised here is an ideological difference between the opposition and the ruling party about the role of the state in the economy. That is the issue which is in question here. This R5 billion guarantee that has been granted to the SAA is necessary. It supports the ruling party's view about the importance of the state's role in the economy. The question, therefore, is absolutely relevant. [Applause.]
Thank you, Chair. Minister, taking into account the fact that Transnet, as an entity, was built up over the years by loyal, hard- working people who are now retired, what is the Minister going to do to ensure that the pensioners on the Transport Pension Fund and the Transnet Second Defined Benefit Fund will be given an annual increase above the current statutory 2%, without resorting to ad hoc bonuses funded from the surplus of these funds? Thank you.
House Chair, the matter of the Second Defined Benefit Fund and other such matters belong to the relevant boards. They don't belong to the Minister of Public Enterprises. I don't take those decisions.
Vote No 15 - Basic Education - put.
House Chairperson, the Department of Basic Education is directly responsible for losing a R7,2-billion grant to address school infrastructure backlogs. There are 400 mud schools in the Eastern Cape alone and many more unsafe structures. It is a national disgrace that a High Court order was necessary to force the replacement of these structures. It is a national disgrace that the department has been unable to plan and implement the replacement. National Treasury has now been forced to reallocate the assigned funding.
Could the Minister explain to us - and to every learner in the rural Eastern Cape attending school in an unsafe structure, mud or otherwise - exactly how the 100 schools promised for 2012-13 and the 346 schools promised for 2013-14 will now be delivered?
Chair, the fact of the matter is that the money has not been lost; it has been rescheduled to outer years. The programme that has been planned by the Department of Basic Education and the provinces to deliver infrastructure is definitely on track as planned. The rescheduled monies are going to be used for libraries - one of the areas - and also the funds are going to be used for universities in Mpumalanga and the Northern Cape. The money will be there.
So, again, we can reassure South Africans that the programme is indeed on track. All the other stories, I think, are part of political posturing. What I can say, which is true, is the fact that the money has not been lost, but rescheduled and it will be available for all the infrastructure. Thank you, Chair.
Chairperson, whereas the Minister tells us that the money is not lost and that it is now being rolled over to outer years, there will be a cost escalation. I trust that the Minister understands that building costs will increase. The facts are that we have lost an entire year and that the R2,5 billion is still unspent as we are nearing the end of the year. There will be a cost escalation, and how will the Minister explain that to taxpayers that don't see value for money when they pay for the escalation, whereas other new schools could have been built. Thank you, Chairperson.
Chair, I hope I don't understand the member to mean that universities and libraries are not as important as any other educational infrastructure. I think we agree that they are. We have given this commitment. In terms of what we tell the taxpayer that learners will not ... I am not even sure about this R2,5 billion she is talking about. I know we are on track in terms of the expenditure that we have.
Last year, we were given R700 million, which we spent fully. This year it was R2 billion, and it has been fully spent and/or committed. The bulk of the money that is going to come in next year, which is R5 billion, is the money that has been rescheduled.
But in terms of the R2,4 billion, I don't know what she is talking about. Perhaps when the chair of the committee is at a meeting she can talk about that R2-point-something billion. As the Minister, in terms of the reports that I have been receiving from officials - even in terms of our implementing agent which is the Development Bank of Southern Africa - there is no R2-point-something billion. We didn't even have that amount. I don't know where the R2,4 billion would have come from, because as the department we are only allocated R2 billion. I am not sure how it could even be unspent when it has been completely committed. I can furnish the member with information, because I think there is a crossing of lines. I am not sure of what she is talking about.
Vote No 16 - Health - put.
Chair, I will ignore everybody. With only 37% of performance targets met so far, what guarantee do we have that the additional monies to be voted today will have a significant impact on health care services in public hospitals? Secondly, the Treasury is about to complete the most affordable model for the establishment of the National Health Insurance scheme, currently estimated to be R250 billion.
With regard to the manner in which the NHI has been budgeted for in terms of being introduced, it seems as if a parallel budget for the Department of Health is being developed in terms of which we will end up having a Department of Health budget and a National Health Insurance budget. The question is: Why is this budget not part of the national department's budget?
Thank you very much, hon Chair, and thank you for the question from the hon member. First and foremost, the introduction of the National Health Insurance system is at a pilot stage. We have announced through the Minister the 10 pilot sites plus one in Kwazulu-Natal. That is why there is a specific grant to ensure that we introduce the NHI system in a systematic and sustainable manner.
The Minister of Finance also indicated, in agreement with our plans, that the National Health Insurance system and its budgeting system would happen over time. So, it will be an integrated budget as the introduction of the system matures.
I just also want to indicate that the spending against the NHI is low currently, because we have also been negotiating with general practitioners so that they also contribute towards services, especially in clinics, through sessional posts. The negotiations are at an advanced stage, and we will certainly be spending the allocated funds.
We have also been assisting hospitals to improve revenue collection. I am happy to announce that as far as the Charlotte Maxeke hospital is concerned, this intervention has enabled us to collect around R37 million in the first six months. We will be extending this intervention to other hospitals, which include the Steve Biko, the George Mukhari and other hospitals. I thank you.
Vote No 18 - Labour - put.
House Chair, the Department of Labour has projected that 700 000 job seekers will be registered on the Employment Services of SA system, Essa, for the year. The total achieved for the six months ending 30 September 2012 is only 131 379. While this is poor, even worse is the reason given for the low number, and I quote: "It is due to lack of capacity at labour services." Minister, why do we lack capacity at labour centres when thousands of young jobless university graduates are roaming our streets or languishing at home in despair? Thank you.
Yes, Sir. I did speak to the Minister and I think she anticipated what her ... [Inaudible.] ... would have wanted to say. The reasons are exactly what she has given: that they could not implement or deliver on that outcome simply because there was no capacity. They are busy building capacity. So, it would be lying to say there is capacity. I don't know what the Minister is expected to say. There was no capacity, it is being built and that is why there were delays. That is why there was a request for the funding. So, I am not sure what the question is. What is the Minister supposed to say? What is she supposed to say beyond telling the truth? That is what it is.
Vote No 21 - Correctional Services - put.
Chairperson, I would like to ask the hon Minister, given the fact that the budget for nutrition services increased from R234,6 million to R1,1 billion, why he is in favour of outsourcing nutrition services while those very same services can be rendered by inmates. Why not use that money for the much-needed rehabilitation programmes in the department, given the fact that the approximately 550 inmates in maximum security at a centre like Mthatha are literally eating and sleeping without recreation services? Why not use that money for that purpose? Thank you.
Chairperson, the hon member was in a briefing only yesterday on this matter. The nutrition contract is coming to an end. It is being advertised, and all the necessary measures are being taken, including a study on the efficacy of insourcing and outsourcing. The committee unanimously agreed with that process - ask Mr Selfe, he will brief you. You were there yourself when the briefing was given. So this matter is a work in progress, and the committee is being fully briefed on it. That is what I can say. The service is being advertised while we look at the efficacy of self-catering or otherwise. This matter will be brought back to the committee.
Vote No 22 - Defence and Military Veterans - put.
Chairperson, I am surprised the Minister found time to be here today, given the fact that she is so busy - we hear in the corridors - with a recount of the former Minister's flights on ultraluxury Gulfstream jets. [Laughter.]
Turning to the adjusted Estimate of Expenditure, I note that an additional R63 million will be provided for counterpiracy operations under Operation Copper. But I have also noted in weekend newspapers that the four frigates, which are the mainstay of Operation Copper, are defective with major engine trouble. My question to the Minister is: Would the Minister tell us how she intends spending the R63 million when the four frigates are reportedly caput? Thank you.
I don't know about being caput, but thank you very much. One must remember that when Operation Copper was launched, we had no money. This was part of unforeseeable expenditures. We didn't have a budget allocated for this exercise, but owing to the maritime security threat that exists, SADC decided that there was a need to have a maritime security strategy. And part of that is the trilateral agreement that we have with Tanzania and Mozambique to patrol the Mozambican Channel.
The issue of the frigates is another matter. What is important is that we went on an operation without the necessary resources. We requested resources, and we have now been allocated R63 million. How we spend that R63 million, which falls far short of what we requested, is another matter. In fact, we feel that this money is insufficient. I do not want to address the issue of frigates. They will decide - people who deal with issues of maritime strategy: the navy - how best to spend that money in the process of patrolling the Mozambican Channel. Thanks.
Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, it seems that the mistakes and the accidents, especially in the navy, when it comes to submarines is costing the taxpayer millions of rand: bumping into the dockyard, connecting plugs the wrong way around, burning all the fuses that cost millions of rand and even hitting the sea bed. It seems the navy does not know that submarines do operate under water but not underground. [Laughter.] So, all these millions of rand are owing to mistakes and lack of training. What is the hon Minister going to do to ensure that these sorts of incidents and accidents do not cost the taxpayer any more money? Thank you.
Well, fortunately, this is an environment you come from, hon Groenewald, the general. So, you would know best what normally happens when those kinds of things happen, in that, in the first instance, you establish an inquiry to determine the cause of such accidents. Once you have done that, you get the recommendations and you put into effect the implementation of those recommendations.
Certainly, you know very well - I did say this two weeks ago - that we have had to spend money to repair the submarine that hit the sea bed. Yes, it was human error, and obviously the recommendations of the board, which I would imagine will be presented to you in the Joint Standing Committee on Defence, will then clearly spell out how we are going to deal with some of the human errors that have been committed in the course of doing exercises. Thank you.
Vote No 25 - Police - put.
Chairperson, I want to ask the hon Minister a question. The Police department paid the legal costs of Jackie Selebi - R17,5 million. He is in and out of jail. I want to know from the hon Minister what steps the department is going to take to ensure that the taxpayers get that money back. What guarantees were given, because it is unacceptable that taxpayers foot the legal bill of a criminal? Thank you.
Hon Chairperson, the member's question has nothing to do with the adjustments. I am doing you a favour, hon member, by responding. With regard to the question, the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development is processing that matter. Thank you.
Vote No 27 - Communications - put.
House Chairperson, I just want to know from the hon Minister if we aren't perhaps sending out the wrong signal by allocating more funding to two of the underperforming institutions, namely the Independent Communications Authority of SA, Icasa, and the SA Broadcasting Corporation, for operational expenditure? Thank you.
Hon Chairperson, hon Members of Parliament will recall that we stated the challenges that we were facing with regard to the two entities when we made our presentations in terms of the annual report. One of the challenges critical to them was the fact that we were experiencing capacity problems.
Therefore, in order for us to make it a point that the entities deliver on their mandates as expected, we have to ensure that we have all the resources in place. Hence, we came up with a turnaround strategy of addressing the challenges as raised in your findings. Thank you.
Vote No 28 - Economic Development - put.
Hon Minister, let me preface what I am going to say by stating that we support the budget. There are no problems there. The question I want to ask is to do with small, medium and micro enterprises, SMMEs, and the Small Enterprise Finance Agency, Sefa. We did speak about this earlier in that we still find that there is an overlap between what the Department of Economic Development is doing and what the Department of Trade and Industry is doing. Moving forward, we need the surety that liaison between the two departments is going to be improved to ensure that funding to Sefa is effective and efficient and to avoid a situation of unnecessary duplication.
The second issue is to do with the International Trade Administration Commission, Itac. There, we also need to find out how we are going to iron out the working relationship between your department, again, and the DTI, in that there seems to be overlaps. This is because the continued overlaps make it a problem for us to properly gage the effectiveness and efficiency of the work of the department. Thank you.
Thank you very much, Chairperson, and in particular may I thank the hon member for his support for the budget of the department. On the issue of Sefa and small business funding, I'd like to give the assurance that the Department of Trade and Industry and the Department of Economic Development work closely on this issue; that, in fact, when we constituted the board of Sefa, we appointed to the board a representative of the Small Enterprise Development Agency, Seda.
The basic division of labour between the two agencies is that one addresses funding, and the other addresses business support and technical services. But we are mindful of the fact that we need to really integrate the services of different agencies in government. The next step will be to try to do more of this with provinces and local government too. On the second question of Itac, I'd like to draw the hon member's attention to the fact that the Itac board deals with the work of Itac. That has a policy component, which the Minister of Economic Development deals with. In respect of individual applications for tariff setting, the Minister of Trade and Industry plays the lead role there. So, between the two departments they have found a way in which we can use one agency to satisfy the trade requirements of government, instead of creating two separate regulatory agencies to do the same. I think this is the kind of integration that government is increasingly seeking to achieve. Thank you.
Vote No 31 - Human Settlements - put.
House Chairperson, the DA objects to the medium-term budget because the Minister needs to provide clarity in terms of the perpetual underexpenditure on the Rural Household Infrastructure Programme. By October 2012 the department had only managed to spend 5,8%, which is R27,8 million, of the allocated R479,5 million budgeted for the rural household infrastructure grant. To date, the department has declared underexpenditure of R138,875 million on this grant.
Approximately 2,4 million households are still lacking basic sanitation services. It is hard to comprehend how the department could declare a saving on a budget, which should clearly have been spent completely, if there are any serious attempts to address the sanitation backlog. The question is: What is the Minister doing to speed up the implementation and spending of the Rural Household Infrastructure Programme? Thank you.
Thank you, Chairperson. Thank you for the question. The member is just rattling off numbers he does not understand. There are updates of these numbers, and I thought he had made himself au fait with them. Be that as it may, the rig which he is referring to is a product of a discussion between ourselves and the various provinces. We are as good as the provinces at spending the funds.
Secondly, our Minmec has taken a decision in that we have to address the issue of project management shortages. Another problem is logistical capacity. We have decided that your normal community-based companies should be given opportunities to implement the roll- out of this project in the rural areas. Unfortunately, those companies, being very small, cannot do the job. That is why we have taken a decision, which he knows very well, to invite the members of the private sector to join the Independent Development Trust, which itself was not doing that well, to roll out this project.
So we have plans that he well knows, and we have turnaround strategies that he understands. But the last thing, as Minister, I was going to do was to spend money by opening floodgates into a void. We would rather keep that money back, particularly towards the end of the financial year, instead of seeing that money being dumped all over the place. So, we are very careful about public funds, and I want him to make himself au fait with the decision that we have taken which has been communicated to the portfolio committee of which he is a member.
Vote No 33 - Rural Development and Land Reform - put.
Chairperson, I would have liked to have put this question to the Minister, but I will have to put it to the Deputy Minister. The DA has no option but to support this department's adjusted budget, because the DA supports reconciliation and restitution, especially with regard to addressing the lamentable legacy of the 1913 Natives' Land Act.
Minister, my question is based on your department's Comprehensive Rural Development Programme, CRDP, initiatives, and its objectives regarding rural development and land reform. What steps will you take to ensure that every rand spent on the revitalisation of former parastatal irrigation schemes and plantations, such as Magwa, as well as the recapitalisation of collapsed ongoing concerns purchased by the state, are taken on a responsible and sustainable basis? If this expenditure becomes a perennial budgetary item, it will militate against the achievement of meaningful and productive land reform, which will leave the government no alternative but to seek more phantom scapegoats to apportion blame for their failure. Minister, clearly, how do you prevent this item becoming a perennial budgetary item?
Chairperson, the decisions we are taking now on a regular basis in the acquisition of farms include a strategy for ensuring that the resources that are deployed to assist incoming farmers, whose relationship with the land was destroyed deliberately, is done appropriately. This is very intensive work we are doing.
The reason for a budgetary item is that it is a complex thing. Some of the people we trusted would be appropriate mentors have turned out to be frauds - and not appropriate ones. We have been able to rule them out and we are finding appropriate ones. The appropriate allocation of resources to support incoming farmers is something we are dealing with, as you were saying, in a manner that is beginning to show results. In the Eastern Cape, in Limpopo and in almost all the provinces, the results we are seeing owing to these interventions are showing that we are literally on course to reverse the legacy of 1913. We appreciate your support for that campaign. Thank you very much.
Minister, the department's worst performance is in the area of restitutions. Backlogs are causing frustration and anger amongst many claimants. What steps will the Minister take to ensure that the land reform portion of the budget does not consume money allocated for the finalisation of restitution claims, especially considering the fact that the new restitution claims will, in all likelihood, be considered by the department?
Chairperson, the frustration is understandable because, in the first place, the numbers and the complexity of some of these claims were beyond what we expected. There had to be resolution of the conflict among beneficiaries, sometimes amongst themselves. Regarding the legal processes that had to be followed, unfortunately we couldn't force the courts to speed up the resolution of decisions about some of these claims. So some of the frustration arising from the claims you are talking about include many claims that, as we speak, remain in the courts for resolution. So, some of the delays are matters outside of our immediate remit. Those that are within our remit, we are discussing with claimants themselves. The processes we are undertaking include digitising the information - so that at a click of a button we are able to provide claimants with information about where their claims are at and how they can help us fast-track the claims themselves.
As we speak, we are visiting districts throughout the country to communicate that. We were in Venda yesterday, sir. And, in terms of the frustration you are talking about, people when given information appreciate it dramatically. Often the mistake is owing to there not being sufficient communication. As we are doing this now, the results show for themselves that people are able to work with us to produce the results that we would like to see.
Vote No 36 - Trade and Industry - put.
House Chair, in terms of the adjusted estimate annotates for Vote 36 there is R686 million "declared" as savings as a result of the delayed implementation of the economic comparativeness and support package, consisting of R346 million in underspending in manufacturing investments and R340 million in infrastructure development support.
The Minister knows the story. Jobs are the highest priority. Having so- called savings here is short-sighted. Infrastructure spending stimulates growth, growth creates jobs, jobs bring about further revenue. So, I would like to ask the hon Minister to please explain himself. By the way, I wanted to say to Minister Gigaba that his response to the quite-legitimate question about SA Airways was as evasive, as it was obtuse, as it was arrogant. [Interjections.]
I rise on a point of order, House Chair.
Yes, hon member. What is the point of order?
I am rising on a point of order because we are dealing with Vote 36, and a member is addressing a different Vote, which is not currently before the House.
The point of order is sustained. We are on a different Vote. I will request the hon Minister of Trade and Industry to respond to the first part of the question that the hon member has posed.
Thank you very much, House Chair. The Department of Trade and Industry has delivered on its target of being within 5% of its budget in spending in four of the past five years. Given that this is a department in which 65% of the budget depends on the take-up of incentives by players in the private sector - and not on projects that are run by the department itself - is, I think, actually quite remarkable.
The Manufacturing Competitiveness Enhancement Programme, MCEP, was launched in May to encourage manufacturers to invest in competitiveness-raising programmes. What happened was that the uptake in the initial few months of the launch was relatively modest, but it has picked up substantially since then. There are now 144 applications, which have been processed. There is a number of those which have already started to pay out, starting from October.
The Minister of Finance, when replying to the last debate, said that there were three ways that one could approach this. He recalled that one was the approach of integrity. You can declare the savings. We declared the savings, and those funds will be available to us in the whole of the Medium- Term Expenditure Framework period. So, as Minister Motshega has said, the funds have not been lost.
The other programme was the special economics zones process. Here, I think, we encountered what we did not anticipate to be a number of legal challenges arising from intergovernmental relations. But I can say that as we are still coming to Parliament with the Bill, we have simultaneously been doing work with the provinces to identify potential special economic zones that can be declared. Feasibility studies on 10 special economic zones, encompassing all nine provinces, are in fact under way.
So, I think, the process is not one where we have lost the funding. The process is one where there has been some delay, but we are on track to be within 2% of our budget in terms of expenditure this year. Thank you.
Vote No 37 - Transport - put.
Thank you, House Chairperson. Hon Minister, my question is in two parts. The first part deals with the Umthatha Airport. In your budget for this Medium-Term Expenditure Framework period there is an item that pops up of R450 million to upgrade the Umthatha Airport. It is in the category of unbudgeted or unforeseen expenses.
Our understanding is that the Umthatha Airport used to be owned by the Eastern Cape provincial government. Then, the military took it over for a certain period and began an upgrade. The upgrade was not completed. Suddenly, there is R450 million allocated to your Transport budget for the upgrade of the Umthatha Airport.
Could you explain to this House who currently owns the Umthatha Airport because we are investing money in it? And, is this R450 million the money that comes from the Defence budget that has been moved, in the sense of a virement, to Transport in order to do the work on behalf of the Defence Force, or on behalf of the Eastern Cape government? How is this occurring? It is a lot of money. It is nearly half a billion rand.
The second part of the question regards the R123-billion Passenger Rail Agency of SA, Prasa, contract for new trains - 7 226 units of rolling stock. We understand that Treasury has capped that to only R40 billion out of the R123 billion for the first 10 years. With only eight years remaining, that means if you carry on at a rate of R4 billion a year you get R76 billion. Does this mean that we do not have the funds to pay for the full R123 billion? How do you explain that for the bulk of the period we are only going to spend R40 billion? That will not buy 7 226 units of rolling stock; rather a whole lot less. Is the ANC unable to fulfil the promise it made to purchase all-new trains for South Africa? Thank you.
Thank you, Chairperson. The Department of Transport has received R450 million for the upgrade of the Umthatha Airport. The department is busy effecting that. No money was received from the Department of Defence for this purpose. With regard to the upgrade of the rolling stock for Prasa, it is a joint venture. Part of the money will be sourced from government and part of the money will be sourced from private enterprise with regard to this programme. Thank you.
Chair and Minister, I will pose this question in Afrikaans.
Aan die een kant wil die regering openbare ondernemings soos die SA Lugdiens, SAL, openbaar hou, maar aan die ander kant word openbare paaie soos di in Gauteng geprivatiseer. Dit maak natuurlik glad nie sin nie. Ek wil die Minister vra wanneer hy van plan is om Gauteng se e-tolstelsel te aktiveer en of dit sinvol is, gegewe die openbare weerstand teen die stelsel. Moet daar nie eerder verdere openbare verhore gehou word in hierdie verband nie? Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[On the one hand government wants to keep public enterprises like the South African Airways, SAA, public, but on the other hand public roads like those in Gauteng are privatised. Of course it does not make any sense at all. I want to ask the Minister as to when does he plan to activate Gauteng's e- tolling system and whether it is sensible, given the opposition of the public against the system. Should further public hearings not be held in this regard instead.]
Hon Minister, before you respond, I wish to remind hon members that the questions you put to the Ministers must be in terms of the adjustments that have been made in their budgets, and not general questions on policy. Hon Minister, if you wish to respond, you may. If not; then you do not need to.
Agb Voorsitter, ek bedank die lid vir sy vraag. Ek wil hom net meedeel dat die regering die verantwoordelikheid het - baie dankie. [Applous.] Die regering het die verantwoordelikheid om seker te maak dat ons op goeie paaie kan rondreis in hierdie land. Ons gaan nie van daardie verantwoordelikheid afsien nie. Ons moet seker maak dat ons paaie in 'n goeie toestand is, en ons moet die nodige fondse bekom om dit so te hou. Baie dankie. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Hon Chairperson, I thank the member for his question. I just want to tell him that the government has the responsibility - thank you. [Applause.] The government has the responsibility to ensure that we travel on good roads in this country. We are not going to relinquish that responsibility. We must ensure that our roads are in a good condition, and we must obtain the necessary funds to keep it that way. Thank you very much. [Applause.]]
Discussion on Votes and Schedule concluded.
Order, hon members! Before I proceed, I wish to recognise the presence of the Premier of the North West province in the gallery. Welcome, honourable Premier. [Applause.]
Vote No 1 - Presidency - put.
Division demanded.
The House divided:
Ayes - 221: Abram, S; Adams, P E; Ainslie, A R; Bapela, K O; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bikani, F C; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Bothman, S G; Burgess, C V; Chabane, O C; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Dambuza, B N; Daniels, P N; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Ditshetelo, I C; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Zuma, N C; Dlulane, B N; Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M C; Duma, N M; Dunjwa, M L; Ebrahim, E I; Fransman, M L; Fubbs, J L; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gaum, A H; Gcwabaza, N E; Gelderblom, J P; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Gololo, C L; Gona, M F; Goqwana, M B; Gumede, D M; Hajaig, F; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Huang, S - B; Jeffery, J H; Joemat-Pettersson, T M; Johnson, M; Kekane, C D; Kenye, T E; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, F E; Khunou, N P; Koornhof, G W; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Lesoma, R M M; Line, H; Lishivha, T E; Luyenge, Z; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabedla, N R; Mabuza, M C; Madlala, N M; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Magagula, V V; Magama, H T; Magubane, E; Magwanishe, G; Magwanishe, G; Makasi, X C; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Malale, M l; Malgas, H H; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, J M; Manamela, K B; Manganye, J; Mangena, M S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Maserumule, F T; Mashatile, P; Mashishi, A C; Masilo, J M; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M; Mathebe, D H; Mathibela, N F; Matshoba, J M; Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, M; Mbalula, F A; Mdaka, M N; Mdakane, M R; Mfulo, A; Mfundisi, I S; Mgabadeli, H C; Mjobo, L N; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlambo, E M; Mnisi, N A; Mohale, M C; Mohorosi, M; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Moloto, K A; Moni, C M; Morutoa, M R; Moss, L N; Motimele, M S; Motlanthe, K P; Motsepe, R M; Motshekga, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpontshane, A M; Msweli, H S; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Mtshali, E; Mufamadi, T A; Mushwana, F F; Muthambi, A F; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndabeni, S T; Ndebele, J S; Ndlovu, V B; Nel, A C; Nelson, W J; Nene, N M; Newhoudt- Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngcobo, B T; Ngele, N J; Ngubeni-Maluleka, J P; Ngwenya, W; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Nkoana-Mashabane, M E; November, N T; Ntapane, S Z; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, Z C; Nxesi, T W; Nxumalo, M D; Nyalungu, R E; Nyekemba, E; Nzimande, B E; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Peters, E D; Petersen-Maduna, P; Phaliso, M N; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Pilusa-Mosoane, M E; Radebe, G S; Radebe, J T; Radebe, B A; Ramatlhodi, N A; Ramodibe, D M; Ramokgopa, G; Schneemann, G D; Segale-Diswai, M J; Selau, G J; September, C C; Sexwale, T M G; Shabangu, S; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibiya, D; Sindane, G S; Singh, N; Sisulu, M V; Sithole, S C N; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Smith, V G; Snell, G T; Sogoni, E M; Sosibo, J E; Suka, L; Sulliman, E M; Sunduza, T B; Surty, M E; Thobejane, S G; Tinto, B; Tlake, M F; Tobias, T V; Tsebe, S R; Tseke, G K; Tsenoli, S L; Tshabalala, J; Tshwete, P; Tsotetsi, D R; Twala, N M; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van der Merwe, S C; van Rooyen, D D; Van Schalkwyk, M C J; van Wyk, A; Williams, A J; Xaba, P P; Xasa, T; Ximbi, D L; Xingwana, L M; Yengeni, L E; Zikalala, C N Z; Zulu,