Hon Chairperson, Tiaan van der Walt was released from prison on 26 January 2013 after serving three-and-a-half years of a five-year sentence. At the end of May, he was arrested and confessed to murdering Dr Louis Heyns. He was in prison four times and had 18 previous convictions.
This story illustrates what is not right with the Department of Correctional Services. It is supposed to rehabilitate and reintegrate offenders. In fact, most offenders become more criminalised in prison. That is because the activities and the budget of the department are not aligned with the White Paper. It is because we have had three Ministers, four national commissioners and three chief financial officers in the last seven years. It is because prisoners are not obliged to work and become skilled and productive. For all these reasons, the DA will not support this Budget Vote. [Applause.]
Agb Voorsitter, Cope ondersteun nie hierdie begrotingspos nie. Die sentrale rol wat die Bosasa Groep in hierdie departement speel, behoort alle rooi ligte te laat flikker. Hulle wen alle tenders - van uniforms tot inligtingstegnologie tot die bestuur van kombuise by korrektiewe inrigtings.
Dit stem Cope verder tot kommer dat topamptenare van die staatsintelligensiediens ook direkteure van Bosasa is. Ons party het hierdie aangeleentheid by herhaling in die Parlement geopper, met geen effek nie. 'n Kriminele en geregtelike ondersoek is lank gelede verwag. Die Spesiale Ondersoekeenheid se verslag is nooit in die publiek bekend gemaak nie, en die Valke is ook nie ingeroep om verdere ondersoek in te stel en te sorg dat skuldiges aangekeer word nie. Totdat hierdie spul ongerymdhede nie opgeklaar is nie, kan Cope nie deel wees van 'n begrotingstoewysing aan hierdie departement nie. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.}
[Ms S R BEREND: Hon Chair, Cope does not support this Budget Vote. The pivotal role of the Bosasa Group within this department should be a clear indication of the warning signs. All the tenders are awarded to them - from uniforms to information technology to the management of kitchens at correctional institutions.
Further on, it creates concern within Cope that top officials of the State's Intelligence Services are also directors of Bosasa. Our party repeatedly raised this issue in Parliament, without any result. A criminal and judicial investigation was expected long ago. The report of the Special Investigation Unit was never made public and the Hawks were never approached to undertake further investigations and to see to it that those who were guilty were apprehended. Until all these irregularities are not resolved Cope cannot be party to the allocation of the budget to this department. I thank you.]
Chairperson, the number of awaiting-trial detainees in this department is a cause for concern for the Department of Police and Department of Justice and Constitutional Development. If these two departments can work hand in glove, they can alleviate the high number of awaiting-trial detainees on whom a lot of money is spent. Furthermore, the parole policy is a nightmare. There are people who are being released because they are friendly to some and not to others, comrades to some and not to others, and are brothers to some and sisters to others. They all get parole without having to follow proper policy. We don't have a policy to specify exactly what is going on.
The information technology system within the department is a nightmare. Let us talk about it and try to solve it because the department cannot work without a proper one. Anybody must know when the Correctional Service information technology system is working. One must just have to press a button to know where his or her relative is. They shouldn't have to drive around to find a person. That is impossible. Thank you.
Voorsitter, die Departement van Korrektiewe Dienste is 'n baie belangrike departement wat die taak het om seker te maak dat die burgers daar buitekant veilig is, omdat die mense wat in die tronk behoort te wees wel in die tronk is en dat daar nie gebeur waarna verwys is met die moord op dr Heyns nie.
Om dit moontlik te maak, het 'n mens baie bekwame amptenare nodig in die departement wat weet wat hulle moet doen. Ek weet daar is ook baie bekwame amptenare in die departement, en daarvoor het die departement wat hy noem 'n billike en gelyke indiensnemingsplan. {Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.} [Dr C P MULDER: Chair, the Department of Correctional Services is a very important department which has the duty to ensure that the citizens out there are safe because those people who need to be in prison should indeed be there and that nothing takes place as was mentioned with regard to the murder on Dr Heyns.
To achieve this one needs many capable officials in the department who know what they should do. I am aware that there are many capable officials in the department, and in order to operate efficiently the department has what it refers to as a fair and equitable employment plan.]
But we have a problem.
Daardie plan is nie billik nie, en hy is ook nie gelyk nie. Op hierdie oomblik is daar minderhede - wit- en bruinmense - wat amptenare in die departement is wat daardie departement na die hof moet neem, omdat hulle nie aangestel word nie aangesien daar teen hulle gediskrimineer word, omdat hulle wit en bruin is. Wat doen die departement? Hy gebruik fondse uit hierdie begroting wat ons vandag moet goedkeur om die duurste advokate aan te stel om hand en tand te veg dat daardie mense nie bevorder word in die departement nie. Dis totaal onaanvaarbaar. Ons sal nie die departement se begrotingpos kan ondersteun nie. Baie dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[That plan is not fair, and also not equal. At this moment there are minorities - white and coloured people - who are officials in the department who have to take that department to court, because they are not appointed because they are discriminated against because they are white and coloured. What is the department's reaction? It uses funds from this budget which we have to approve today in order to appoint the most expensive advocates to fight tooth and nail that those people are not promoted in that department. That is totally unacceptable. We will not be able to support the department's budget vote. Thank you.]
Chair, it's a pity that three of the four previous speakers who stood up here, with the exception of hon Ndlovu, were involved in cheap politicking and crude populism. The DA's spokesperson indicated that there is no rehabilitation. The Minister of Education just this year decided that education will be for everybody who has less than Grade 9 in Correctional Services.
The Cope member mentioned that there is corruption. Our reports spoke about intensifying corruption and the fact that Bosasa is a matter that has appeared before the Special Investigations Unit, SIU, and the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA. It has been dealt with effectively within the department. Those matters are now with people outside of the department.
The member from the FF Plus was talking about affirmative action and its difficulties. The Minister has indicated that there is a consultative forum that comprises organised labour as well as management to deal precisely with this matter. We suggest to the member from the FF Plus to await the outcome of that consultative process before casting judgement.
Finally, I want to say that, in fact, this department is involved in rehabilitation, with nation-building and reconciliation. A few years ago, Pretoria central was known for its activities of hanging people. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Congress of the People, Independent Democrats, Inkatha Freedom Party and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).
Vote No 22 - Defence and Military Veterans - put.
Declarations of vote:
Chairperson, we must face the fact that the Defence Force has effectively been placed beyond proper scrutiny and oversight by Parliament.
We do not know anything about the Defence Force's combat readiness because Parliament has never been briefed on the effects of the R12,5 billion spent on force employment since 2009-10.
We do not know anything about the Defence Force's acquisition programme, because Parliament has never been briefed on the R3,5 billion spent on capital acquisition projects since 2009-10.
We do not know anything about the Defence Force's special defence account because Parliament has never been briefed on the R27,3 billion channelled through the special defence account since 2009-10.
The fact is that we know very little about how and to what effect public funds are being spent by the Defence Force. We will therefore be calling for a division to demonstrate our strong opposition to the fact that the Defence Force has effectively been turned into a state within a state, beyond proper scrutiny and oversight by Parliament. We will not and, indeed, we cannot support the budget for the Defence and Military Veterans. I sincerely hope that Gwede Mantashe is not upset that the Minister has evidently been upset by this declaration. [Interjections.] Thank you.
Voorsitter, dit was nog altyd die standpunt van die VF Plus dat die SA Nasionale Weermag nie verpolitiseer moet word nie. Nog elke jaar het die VF Plus ges dat die Weermag meer geld moet kry. Die regering van die dag verwag meer van die SA Nasionale Weermag as waarvoor daar finansies is.
Ons het 'n probleem, en die probleem gaan oor opleidingstandaarde in die SA Nasionale Weermag. Ek wil vir u een voorbeeld noem, agb Minister. In die begrotingsdebat het u ges dat 'n mediese ordonnans die troepe moes lei, want hulle het verdwaal. Nou wil ek vandag vir u s: As 'n mediese ordonnans valskermsoldate uitlei omdat hulle verdwaal het, is daar 'n krisis in hul opleiding, want 'n valskermsoldaat is veronderstel om 'n spesialis te wees op al die terreine.
Ek wil verder gaan. Ons kan nie vir die belastingbetaler vra om meer geld vir verdediging te gee, maar ons verhoog nie ons opleidingstandaarde nie. Alvorens ons nie ons opleidingstandaarde op standaard bring nie - want agb Minister, as vliegtuie val en duikbote vaar teen die bodem van die see vas, is ons opleiding nie op standaard nie - kan die VF Plus nie die begrotingspos ondersteun nie. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Chair, It has always been the stance of the FF Plus that the SA National Defence Force should not be politicised. Every year the FF Plus still maintained that the Defence Force should get more money. The government of the day expects more of the SA National Defence Force than it can afford.
We have a problem, and the problem concerns the standards of training in the SA National Defence Force. I would like to give one example, hon Minister. In the debate on the budget vote you mentioned that a medical orderly took control of the troops because they lost their way. Now today I would like to inform you: if a medical orderly escorts paratroopers because they lost their way a crisis exists in their training, because a paratrooper is expected to be a specialist in all circumstances.
I would like to go further. We cannot ask the taxpayer to contribute more towards defence but we do not improve the standards of our training. Not until our standards of training are at a required level - because, hon Minister, if aircraft fall and submarines crash into the seabed, our training is not of a required standard - will the FF Plus be able to support the Budget Vote. I thank you.]
House Chairperson, I just want to let the House know that, after some serious work on my lips, the Minister is reconsidering her position that she won't kiss my lips. We are getting a bit closer. [Laughter.]
Mhlalingaphambili, yingxuba kaxaka le ujongene nayo, Mphathiswa. Ingxaki yeli sebe ayiqalanga kuwe. Hayi kakubi dade wethu, ungathi sikubetha esikhumbeni. Inkathazo yeli sebe inzulu nto leyo ebangela ukuba singakwazi ukuluxhasa olu hlahlo-lwabiwo-mali. Sikhe sandwendwela iinkampu zamajoni siyile komiti yezoKhuselo, amanyala enyoka esiwabone kolo hambo lokongamela ngamasikizi.
Izindlu zokuhlala amajoni kunye neendawo zokuchopha azikho mgangathweni. Alala kwindawo ezingaphucukanga, nala mabanjwa bawagadileyo ndiyarhana alala kwiindawo ezingcono ukodlula la majoni ethu.
Omnye umcimbi ke otshisa ibunzi, ngulo wamajoni ayeselubhacweni. Isebe lakho lirhuqa iinyawo kule nto. Ikhona imalana eliyinikiweyo kodwa asiboni ziphumo zincumisayo. Mihla le sifumana iminxeba evela kumajoni ayeselubhacweni, ekhala ngokulala ngendlala. Zezo zinto ke ezibangela ukuba sithi hayi khona dade wethu, khawubhinqe omfutshane mhlawumbi kwithuba elilandelayo sakuthetha ngcono.
I-Cope ayikwazi kuluxhasa olu hlahlo-lwabiwo-mali phantsi kwezo zizathu. Ndisatshaya. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)
[Chairperson, you are facing an intricate problem that is very difficult to solve, hon Minister. The difficulty of this department didn't start with you. This is not intended as an attack on you, my sister, you must not say we are being personal. The problematic situation of this department is very deep, something which makes it difficult for us to support the budget. We visited the soldiers' camps, as this committee of the Department of State Security, and what we experienced there during our oversight visit was horrific and appalling.
The soldiers' residences and toilets are not up to standard. They sleep in unsuitable places, I will not be surprised to find that even the prisoners they are watching over sleep in much better places compared to our soldiers.
Another urgent matter is that of soldiers who were in exile. Your department is dragging its feet on this matter. There is some funding that was given to it but we haven't seen any fruitful outcomes. We receive telephone calls from the soldiers who were in exile on a daily basis, complaining about starvation. These are the things that make us say to; not this time, my sister, you must tackle this task with more determination and maybe next time we will have something more positive to talk about.
Cope cannot support this Budget Vote under these reasons. I thank you.]
Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy President, hon Ministers and hon members, the ANC supports Budget Vote No 22.
Contrary to the spurious claims made by the DA that the Department of Defence's budget is unreasonable and unjustifiably high, given the apparent status quo that there exists no military threat, neither under way nor imminent against the republic,the truth is that the 2013-14 budget of R40,2 billion equals only 1,1% of the GDP. The Vote prioritises, amongst others, border management in all terrains, and peace and stability on the continent. The Military Veterans department will, through the allocated budget of R350,4 million, comply with the Military Veterans Act in realising the constitutional obligation to honour those who suffered for justice and freedom in our land.
It should be noted that we do not expect any support from the DA and its sister organisations in anything that we do because they are neither in the House nor in the debates other than to oppose. The only time that the DA and its sister organisations will support us is when they visit our military veterans who were lost during the days when we were fighting against apartheid, who they claim are their heroes as well. The black, green and gold ... Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 219: Abram, S; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, N R; Bikani, F C; Bonhomme, T; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Botha, Y R; Bothman, S G; Burgess, C V; Buthelezi, M G; Cebekhulu, R S; Cele, M A; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Coleman, E M; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Daniels, P N; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlodlo, A; Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M C; Duma, N M; Ebrahim, E I; Fransman, M L; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gaum, A H; Gcwabaza, N E; Gelderblom, J P; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Gololo, C L; Goqwana, M B; Gumede, D M; Hajaig, F; Hlengwa, M; Huang, S - B; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, F E; Khunou, N P; Koornhof, G W; Kubayi, M T; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Lesoma, R M M; Line-Hendriks, H; Lishivha, T E; Luyenge, Z; Mabasa, X; Mabedla, N R; Mabuza, M C; Madlala, N M; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Magagula, V V; Magama, H T; Magubane, E; Magwanishe, G; Makasi, X C; Makhuba, H N; Makhubele, Z S; Makwetla, S P; Malale, M l; Malgas, H H; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, J M; Manana, N C; Manganye, J; Mangena, M S; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mashatile, S P; Mashigo, R M; Mashishi, A C; Masilo, J M; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, D H; Mathibela, N F; Matlanyane, H F; Matshoba, J M; Mavunda, D W; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mdakane, M R; Mfeketo, N C; Mfulo, A; Mgabadeli, H C; Mjobo, L N; Mkhize, H B; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlambo, E M; Mmusi, S G; Mnisi, N A; Mocumi, P A; Mohai, S J; Mohorosi, M; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Moloto, K A; Moni, C M; Moss, L N; Motlanthe, K P; Motsepe, R M; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpontshane, A M; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Mufamadi, T A; Mushwana, F F; Muthambi, A F; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndabeni, S T; Ndebele, J S; Ndlazi, A Z; Ndlovu, V B; Nel, A C; Nelson, W J; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngubeni-Maluleka, J P; Ngwenya, W; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Nkoana-Mashabane, M E; Nkomo, S J; Nkwinti, G E; Nonkonyana, M; November, N T; Ntapane, S Z; Ntuli, Z C; Ntuli, B M; Nxesi, T W; Nxumalo, M D; Nyalungu, R E; Nyanda, S; Nyekemba, E; Oliphant, M N; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Peters, E D; Petersen-Maduna, P; Phaahla, M J; Phaliso, M N; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Pilusa-Mosoane, M E; Pule, D D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, G S; Radebe, J T; Ramatlhodi, N A; Ramodibe, D M; Schneemann, G D; Segale-Diswai, M J; Selau, G J; September, C C; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibiya, D; Sindane, G S; Singh, N; Sisulu, M V; Sithole, K P; Sithole, S C N; Sizani, P S; Smith, V G; Snell, G T; Sogoni, E M; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Suka, L; Sulliman, E M; Sunduza, T B; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thibedi, J D; Tobias, T V; Tsebe, S R; Tseke, G K; Tsenoli, S L; Tshabalala, J; Tsotetsi, D R; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Der Merwe, L L; van Rooyen, D D; Van Schalkwyk, M C J; van Wyk, A; Wayile, Z G; Williams, A J; Williams-De Bruyn, S T; Xaba, P P; Ximbi, D L; Xingwana, L M; Yengeni, L E.
NOES - 81:Alberts, A D; Berend, S R; Bhanga, B M; Boinamo, G G; Bosman, L L; Botha, T; Coetzee, T W; Davidson, I O; De Freitas, M S F; Diemu, B C; Dreyer, A M; Du Toit, N D; Duncan, P C; Eloff, E H; Esau, S; Ferguson, B D; George, M E; Greyling, L W; Groenewald, P J; Harris, T; Hill-Lewis, G G; Hoosen, M H; James, W G; Kalyan, S V; Kganare, D A; Kilian, J D; Kloppers- Lourens, J C; Kohler-Barnard, D; Koornhof, N J J v R; Kopane, S P; Krumbock, G R; Lamoela, H; Lee, T D; Lekota, M G P; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Lovemore, A T; Mackenzie, G P D; Madisha, W M; Marais, S J F; Max, L H; Maynier, D J; Mazibuko, L D; McGluwa, J J; Michael, N W A; Mileham, K J; Mnqasela, M; More, E; Mosimane, C K K; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Mulder, P W A; Mulder, C P; Ndude, H N; Nhanha, M A; Njobe, M A A; Ollis, I M; Paulse, S; Rabie, P J; Ramatlakane, L; Rogers, F A; Ross, D C; Schafer, D A; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Smiles, D C; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Steyn, A C; Stubbe, D J; Swart, M; Swathe, M M; Terblanche, J F; Van den Berg, N J; Van Der Linde, N J; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, S M; Van Schalkwyk, H C; Waters, M; Watson, A; Zikalala, C N Z. Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 23 - Independent Police Investigative Directorate - put.
Declarations of vote:
Chairperson, when it comes to the Independent Police Investigative Directorate, we want to emphasize the point of investigation and then recommendation to the National Director of Public Prosecutions, NDPP, for prosecution. In other words, take the file to the NDPP for prosecution, not to be recommended to the people who are already perpetrators of the deeds.
Secondly, regarding the full-time appointment of the board, we know that there are vacancies within the board. Most of the time members of the board are in and out of Independent Police Investigative Directorate, Ipid. We want to make sure that this section of the department is strengthened so that we are able to work on the rocky police personnel who are maiming and killing the innocent people.
The last issue is with regard to the reappointment of board members and to make sure that the appointment of full-time members of the board of the Private Security Regulatory Authority, Psira, is finalised. We want them to be appointed so that we know exactly who is supposed to do the job, and they are then accountable to us as parliamentarians. We support the Budget Vote. Thank you very much.
Thank you, Chairperson. I thank the hon Ndlovu for the points that he has raised as well.
The Independent Police Investigative Directorate, Ipid, has its own Independent Police Investigative Directorate Act. It is no longer under the SA Police Service Act and, for that reason, we are starting to expect Ipid to perform accordingly. Their budget has been increased tremendously and I have been informed that as we speak, hon Ndlovu, the Minister is in the process of interviewing for the full-time appointment of the executive director of Ipid. So, I presume, we can expect the Minister to come to the House and the committee soon to announce that appointment. Thank you. [Applause.]
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 24 - Justice and Constitutional Development - put.
Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent Democrats dissenting).
Vote No 25 - Police - put.
Declarations of vote:
Hon Chairperson, the DA will not support this budget because of the Marikana Massacre; Mido Macia; Andries Tatane; a court interpreter being dragged by the neck; the SA Police Service members filmed, brutally assaulting civilians; 153 SAPS stations without water, electricity, toilets or all three; SAPS members locked out as leases lapse; the Special Investigations Unit, SIU's, investigation into the two national police days; seven multimillion rand contracts currently under investigation; a failure to reopen the specialised unit closed by the disgraced Jacky Selebi - felon Jacky Selebi who is at home in his mansion, still owing taxpayers R14 million; a third appointment of a nonpolice officer to act as National Police Commissioner; and the failure to demilitarise the SAPS as per the National Development Plan, NDP, instruction.
The SA police also had to set aside 32,8% - that's R20,5 billion - of the budget to pay for the contingent liabilities we expect to pay to civilians raped, beaten and robbed by cops; the Guptagate; paying R4 million to consultants; zero dismissals for the 13 000 lost SAPS firearms; R96 million per annum to send cops to South Sudan and Darfur; the multimillion rands automatic vehicle location, AVL, SAPS car tracking system contract lapsing because Bheki Cele signed the renewal three days after it expired; reservists turned away from SAPS' door since 2008; 20% of detectives untrained, just 3% of cops trained in sexual offenses; 27 000 cops with firearms, but no licenses and 16 594 cops without driver's licenses. In five years there will be no rhinos left at our Kruger National Park.
These are just a few of the reasons why the DA will not support the handing over of this budget to the current SAPS management. [Applause.]
Chairperson, the SA Police Service annual report of 2011-12 included a report by the Auditor-General, revealing that 58% of positive incident reports are not linked to dockets on the case administration system. It is bizarre that the SAPS failed to spend a massive R351 million on revamping the criminal justice system, the department's system which is needed to provide us with accurate case information and statistics. We are yet to hear the outcome of the task team that was formed.
There was wasteful infrastructure expenditure, with the Gauteng SAPS call centre which was relocated to Midrand at a cost of R50 million in trying to centralise the emergency operations of the province. However, it is surprising that the centre is staffed with untrained civilian personnel, without police supervision, who are expected to do charge sheets or police- related calls. This has accounted for the record slump in service delivery at the centre and the communities at large. The pilot call centre reportedly cost R80 million and was stuck in pilot mode for more than four years.
Police guns and ammunition are stolen from police stores, warehouses and directly from the police officers on the bed. This has led to more crimes being committed using police guns and equipment, which include police identity documents and uniforms.
It is very clear that Cope believes that the nation is not reaping full value for the money it is putting on this department. Thank you. [Time expired.]
Agb Voorsitter, die belangrikste taak vir 'n lid van die polisie is om te weet wanneer hy of sy 'n arrestasie kan uitvoer. Ek s dit is uiters belangrik, want as jy iemand arresteer, beperk jy die regte en voorregte van sodanige persoon. Daarom is dit uiters belangrik dat 'n polisielid altyd moet weet oor watter magte en bevoegdhede hy of sy by 'n arrestasie beskik.
Ek het vir die agb Minister 'n vraag in die Parlement gevra, en volgens sy antwoord was daar vir die afgelope vier jaar R137,2 miljoen deur howe toegestaan aan eisers vir onregmatige arrestasies. Agb Minister, dit is 'n absolute bewys van swak opleiding of swak dissipline, want dit lyk vir my asof lede van die polisie nie weet watter magte hulle het of wanneer hulle dit moet aanwend om iemand te arresteer nie.
Die Minister het by geleentheid saamgestem dat daar 'n dissiplinre probleem in die polisie is. Daar is baie lede wat goed gedissiplineerd is, maar die VF Plus kan nie 'n begroting ondersteun as R137,2 miljoen uitbetaal moet word vir onregmatige arrestasies nie. Dit is onaanvaarbaar. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, the most important task for a member of the police is to know when he or she may carry out an arrest. I say this is extremely important, because when you carry out an arrest, you are restricting the rights and privileges of that person. That is why it is extremely important for a member of the police to know at all times what his powers and competence are during an arrest.
I put a question to the Minister in Parliament, and according to his answer the courts awarded R137,2 million to claimants for wrongful arrests. Hon Minister, this is absolute proof of poor training and poor discipline, because it seems to me that the members of the police are not aware what powers they have or when they should enforce them so as to arrest someone. On occasion the Minister has agreed that there is a disciplinary problem in the police. There are many members who are well disciplined, but the FF Plus cannot support a budget when R137,2 million has to be paid out for wrongful arrests. That is unacceptable. I thank you.]
Chairperson, the work of the police is not a walk in the park, and that we should acknowledge. They do not chase people that pick flowers in a church garden. It seems that the election fever took over, and today in this House we saw the total disregard for the lives of our men and women in blue.
The progress made in SA Police Service needs to be acknowledged as well. The stuck record from the DA stood here and told us, one after the other, about the problems within the SAPS. We know those problems and we are dealing with them. She keeps on looking back.
Why not look forward? Let us try and address what needs to be done. Why are we not mentioning the fact that in 1994 we had 848 police stations in this country? Today we have 1 133 police station. [Applause.]
Why do we not mention the fact that, in 1994, the budget of the Police Service was R7 billion and today we are voting R67 billion for the SAPS.
Why do we think our jails are overcrowded? Who takes them to jail? Do they go there on their own? No, it is because of the success of the SAPS and this government in dealing with crime. [Applause.] Thank you.
Division demanded.
The House divided: AYES - 227: Abram, S; Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bhengu, P; Bikani, F C; Bonhomme, T; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Botha, Y R; Bothman, S G; Burgess, C V; Buthelezi, M G; Cebekhulu, R S; Cele, M A; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Coleman, E M; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Daniels, P N; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Ditshetelo, I C; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlodlo, A; Dlomo, B J; Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M C; Duma, N M; Ebrahim, E I; Fransman, M L; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gaum, A H; Gcwabaza, N E; Gelderblom, J P; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Gololo, C L; Goqwana, M B; Gumede, D M; Hajaig, F; Hlengwa, M; Huang, S - B; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, F E; Khunou, N P; Koornhof, G W; Kubayi, M T; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Lesoma, R M M; Line-Hendriks, H; Lishivha, T E; Luyenge, Z; Mabasa, X; Mabedla, N R; Mabuza, M C; Madlala, N M; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Magagula, V V; Magama, H T; Magubane, E; Magwanishe, G; Makasi, X C; Makhuba, H N; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makwetla, S P; Malale, M l; Malgas, H H; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, J M; Manamela, K B; Manana, N C; Manganye, J; Mangena, M S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mashatile, S P; Mashigo, R M; Mashishi, A C; Masilo, J M; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, D H; Mathibela, N F; Matlanyane, H F; Matshoba, J M; Mavunda, D W; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mdakane, M R; Mfeketo, N C; Mfulo, A; Mgabadeli, H C; Mjobo, L N; Mkhize, H B; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlambo, E M; Mmusi, S G; Mnisi, N A; Mocumi, P A; Mohai, S J; Mohorosi, M; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Moloto, K A; Moni, C M; Moss, L N; Motlanthe, K P; Motsepe, R M; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpontshane, A M; Msweli, H S; Mthethwa, E N; Mthethwa, E M; Mufamadi, T A; Mushwana, F F; Muthambi, A F; N'wamitwa- Shilubana, T L P; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndabeni, S T; Ndebele, J S; Ndlazi, A Z; Ndlovu, V B; Nel, A C; Nelson, W J; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngcobo, B T; Ngele, N J; Ngubeni-Maluleka, J P; Ngwenya, W; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Nkoana-Mashabane, M E; Nkomo, S J; Nkwinti, G E; Nonkonyana, M; November, N T; Ntapane, S Z; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, Z C; Nxesi, T W; Nxumalo, M D; Nyalungu, R E; Nyanda, S; Nyekemba, E; Oliphant, M N; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Peters, E D; Petersen-Maduna, P; Phaahla, M J; Phaliso, M N; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Pilusa-Mosoane, M E; Pule, D D; Radebe, J T; Radebe, B A; Radebe, G S; Ramatlhodi, N A; Ramodibe, D M; Schneemann, G D; Segale-Diswai, M J; Selau, G J; September, C C; Sexwale, T M G; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibiya, D; Sindane, G S; Singh, N; Sisulu, M V; Sithole, K P; Sithole, S C N; Sizani, P S; Snell, G T; Sogoni, E M; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Suka, L; Sulliman, E M; Sunduza, T B; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thibedi, J D; Tobias, T V; Tsebe, S R; Tseke, G K; Tsenoli, S L; Tshabalala, J; Tsotetsi, D R; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Van Der Merwe, L L; Van der Merwe, S C; van Rooyen, D D; Van Schalkwyk, M C J; van Wyk, A; Wayile, Z G; Williams, A J; Williams-De Bruyn, S T; Xaba, P P; Ximbi, D L; Xingwana, L M; Yengeni, L E; Zikalala, C N Z.
NOES - 75: Alberts, A D; Berend, S R; Bhanga, B M; Boinamo, G G; Bosman, L L; Botha, T; Coetzee, T W; Davidson, I O; De Freitas, M S F; Diemu, B C; Dreyer, A M; Du Toit, N D; Duncan, P C; Eloff, E H; Esau, S; Ferguson, B D; Gcume, N P; George, M E; Greyling, L W; Groenewald, P J; Harris, T; Hoosen, M H; James, W G; Kalyan, S V; Kganare, D A; Kilian, J D; Kloppers-Lourens, J C; Kohler-Barnard, D; Koornhof, N J J v R; Kopane, S P; Krumbock, G R; Lamoela, H; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Lovemore, A T; Mackenzie, G P D; Madisha, W M; Marais, S J F; Max, L H; Maynier, D J; Mazibuko, L D; McGluwa, J J; Michael, N W A; Mileham, K J; Mnqasela, M; More, E; Mosimane, C K K; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Mulder, C P; Ndude, H N; Nhanha, M A; Njobe, M A A; Ollis, I M; Paulse, S; Rabie, P J; Ramatlakane, L; Rogers, F A; Ross, D C; Schafer, D A; Schmidt, H C; Shinn, M R; Smiles, D C; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swathe, M M; Terblanche, J F; Van den Berg, N J; Van Der Linde, N J; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Schalkwyk, H C; Waters, M; Watson, A.
Vote accordingly agreed to. Vote No 26 - Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries - put.
Declarations of vote:
House Chairperson, the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries is tasked with the mandate to ensure food security for all South Africans. The agriculture and fisheries communities therefore cannot continue to suffer because of a Minister who fails to take her job seriously. Minister Tina Joemat-Pettersson has continually been preoccupied with scandal after scandal instead of addressing the critical matters that impact significantly on our economy.
The department is a simple reflection of the disorganisation of its leadership. Too many questions remain unanswered regarding numerous matters. Firstly, the Minister insisted on funding the Black Association of the Wine and Spirits Industry, Bawsi, workers organisation responsible for fuelling the tragic farm workers' strike in the Western Cape last year.
During the 2010 Rift Valley fever outbreaks, the Minister did nothing to alleviate the situation of animal health and did not respond to the pleas from the farming community for assistance.
Recently, Minister Joemat-Pettersson's department spent R1,7 million on her Budget Vote party. She has also failed to manage the very crucial fleet needed for research in the fishing industry. The Minister must put the department and the people of South Africa first, not her personal political agendas.
I would like to hear what the ANC will have to say about this, because, just this morning, we discussed the Ncera Report, the Mafisa Report and the Mechanisation Report. We sent the department back home, because they could not tell this committee what they are doing with the funding that we give them every year. Thank you. [Applause.]
Chairperson, the issue of food production in our country goes deeper, to the poor masses in KwaZakhele, Engqele, those who cannot afford to live, who depend on government intervention. It is a shame what the ANC have given us, in Minister Tina Joemat-Pettersson. She has appointed six acting directors-general, and one since she was in government, declaring herself that her department is dysfunctional - every year, a director-general!
Today in the committee meeting, we were surprised: she has appointed a new, seventh director-general. [Interjections.] Where are the ears of President Jacob Zuma, where a Minister herself states that she is incapable of running agriculture in this country, does not trust her department or her appointed directors-general, and yet her President continues to keep her in Cabinet until seven directors-general are appointed?
This is not the ANC that understands the mandate of our people. This ANC cannot correct its own people. [Interjections.] This ANC is not the ANC of Mandela, that is able to say no when things are wrong. [Interjections.] Deputy President Kgalema Motlanthe, we worked with you. What kinds of people keep a person who cannot deliver? What kind of people cannot say no to a person who does not have capacity? You are not the only people who represent the poor masses of our people. We, ourselves, come from poor backgrounds. [Interjections.] You are failing Madiba - Madiba, who fought for a good cause - by keeping a person who is doing nothing in our country. [Interjections.]
This is our country! This is not only your country. We will fight for it! We will tell you. Thank you very much. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
Agb Voorsitter, aan die een kant wil ek saamstem met my vorige kollega, maar ek wil ook met hom verskil. Dit is korrek wat hy s, want ek dink dit is die enigste Minister wat in 'n kwessie van vier jaar ses direkteurs-generaal aanstel. Hy s dit is een per jaar, maar hy maak nie sy sommetjie reg nie. Dit is amper twee direkteurs-generaal elke jaar. [Tussenwerpsels.]
Dit is dan geen wonder dat die agb Minister soos 'n roeibootjie sonder spane op die see ronddobber nie. Ek kan verstaan dat visserye van haar af weggeneem word. Hoe kan amptenare hulle werk doen as daar nie 'n direkteur- generaal is wat leiding kan gee nie? Dit is ook die krisis in landbou.
Dan wil ek ook verder s, die agb Minister gaan kies kant aan die kant van die vakbonde teen die boere. Sy moet uitbly uit daardie geskille, want wat landbou betref is dit haar werk om op te tree in belang van Suid-Afrika. Sy moet verseker daar is voedselsekerheid. Deur kant te kies kan sy nie haar werk doen nie, want sy s: Ek is teen die boere van Suid-Afrika. Ons kan maar die basiese loon met 52% verhoog na R105 per dag.
Ek s vandag vir u, sy is nie bevoeg om 'n Minister van Landbou te wees nie. Ons kan haar nie ondersteun nie. Sy behoort vervang te word. Ek dank u. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, on the one hand I want to agree with my previous colleague, but I also want to differ from him. What he says is correct, because I believe this is the only Minister who has appointed six directors-general in a matter of four years. He says that is one per year, but his sum is incorrect. That is almost two directors-general every year. [Interjections.]
It is no wonder, then, that the hon Minister is floating around like a rowing boat without oars on the sea. I can understand that Fisheries was taken away from her. How can officials do their work when there is no director-general to take the lead? This is also the crisis in agriculture.
Then I wish to say further that the Minister goes and takes sides with the unions against the farmers. She should stay out of those disputes, because as far as agriculture is concerned it is her job to take action in the interests of South Africa. She should be ensuring that there is food security. By taking sides she cannot do her work, because she is saying: I am against the farmers of South Africa. Let us increase the basic wage with 52% to R105 per day.
I am telling you today, she is not competent to be a Minister of Agriculture. We cannot support her. She ought to be replaced. I thank you. [Interjections.]]
Chairperson, the IFP supports the budget, with concerns. This department has the biggest challenges - as my colleagues, the hon members, have pointed out, there is the issue of the directors-general who come and go without taking the department forward because of a reason one would suspect may be from the Ministry itself. That is why the directors- general cannot stay in the office.
The department has been led by acting directors-general who have no powers to take the final decisions to steer the department forward. This was shown by the continuous pouring of funds to Ncerha farms, which seem to be a bottomless pit. Millions of hectares of viable farmland lie fallow. What has happened to subsistence farming? The department has to get its act together. I thank you.
Chairperson, the Budget Vote as presented and debated, together with its strategic plan over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, period, bears testimony to the resolve of the department to deal with eradicating the triple challenges of poverty, inequality and underdevelopment through the various programmes and projects contained in the Vote and the strategic plan. This Budget Vote is about ensuring that our people are food secure, that we win the war against deforestation, and that our people in many coastal areas enjoy the benefits of living along the seaside. [Interjections.]
This Vote is also about ensuring that the policies and laws that we have enacted are sufficient to effect the necessary transformative agenda we are committed towards, and the resources allocated by the Budget Vote are spent with due regard to policy priorities. For the opposition, their declaration is all about form and no content and therefore does not take us forward. The ANC supports the Budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
Question put.
Chairperson, the DA calls for a division.
The Democratic Party calls for a division, but before I go there, hon members ...
May I correct you, sir? The DA is calling ...
The DA!
Before I go there, hon members, it has been brought to my attention that some members are not voting from their allocated seats. [Interjections.] Therefore, names are tending to be wrong here, so please vote from your allocated seats, as stated. Members should also not be moving around before the votes are declared.
House Chair, may I address you on the point you have just made? [Interjections.] Some of the allocated bays have incorrect names and the NA Table has been alerted to this. [Interjections.] That is why the names are reflecting incorrectly. [Interjections.]
Just listen! [Interjections.]
I think that will be attended to later. Let us proceed as we do now, because the Speaker is here now. I am sure that will be attended to at a later stage. I also understand that the system is also about to be overhauled. We might get a better system in future.
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 229: Abram, S; Adams, P E; Baloyi, M R; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bhengu, N R; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, P; Bikani, F C; Bonhomme, T; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Botha, Y R; Bothman, S G; Burgess, C V; Buthelezi, M G; Cebekhulu, R S; Cele, M A; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Coleman, E M; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Daniels, P N; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlodlo, A; Dlomo, B J; Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M C; Duma, N M; Ebrahim, E I; Fransman, M L; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gaum, A H; Gcwabaza, N E; Gelderblom, J P; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Gololo, C L; Goqwana, M B; Gumede, D M; Hajaig, F; Hlengwa, M; Huang, S - B; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, F E; Khunou, N P; Koornhof, G W; Kubayi, M T; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Lesoma, R M M; Line-Hendriks, H; Lishivha, T E; Luyenge, Z; Mabasa, X; Mabedla, N R; Mabuza, M C; Madlala, N M; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Magagula, V V; Magama, H T; Magubane, E; Magwanishe, G; Makasi, X C; Makhuba, H N; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makwetla, S P; Malale, M l; Malgas, H H; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, J M; Manamela, K B; Manana, N C; Manganye, J; Mangena, M S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mashatile, S P; Mashigo, R M; Mashishi, A C; Masilo, J M; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, D H; Mathibela, N F; Matlanyane, H F; Matshoba, J M; Mavunda, D W; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mdakane, M R; Mfeketo, N C; Mfulo, A; Mgabadeli, H C; Mjobo, L N; Mkhize, H B; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlambo, E M; Mmusi, S G; Mnisi, N A; Mocumi, P A; Mohai, S J; Mohorosi, M; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Moloto, K A; Moni, C M; Moss, L N; Motlanthe, K P; Motsepe, R M; Motshekga, M S; Motshekga, M A; Mpontshane, A M; Msimang, C T; Msweli, H S; Mthethwa, E M; Mthethwa, E N; Mufamadi, T A; Mushwana, F F; Muthambi, A F; N'wamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndabeni, S T; Ndebele, J S; Ndlazi, A Z; Ndlovu, V B; Nel, A C; Nelson, W J; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngubeni-Maluleka, J P; Ngwenya, W; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Nkoana-Mashabane, M E; Nkomo, S J; Nkwinti, G E; Nonkonyana, M; November, N T; Ntapane, S Z; Ntuli, Z C; Ntuli, B M; Nxesi, T W; Nxumalo, M D; Nyalungu, R E; Nyanda, S; Nyekemba, E; Oliphant, M N; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Peters, E D; Petersen- Maduna, P; Phaahla, M J; Phaliso, M N; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Pilusa- Mosoane, M E; Pule, D D; Radebe, G S; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Ramatlhodi, N A; Ramodibe, D M; Schneemann, G D; Segale-Diswai, M J; Selau, G J; September, C C; Sexwale, T M G; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibiya, D; Sindane, G S; Singh, N; Sisulu, M V; Sithole, S C N; Sithole, K P; Sizani, P S; Smith, V G; Snell, G T; Sogoni, E M; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Suka, L; Sulliman, E M; Sunduza, T B; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thibedi, J D; Tobias, T V; Tsebe, S R; Tseke, G K; Tsenoli, S L; Tshabalala, J; Tsotetsi, D R; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Der Merwe, L L; van Rooyen, D D; Van Schalkwyk, M C J; van Wyk, A; Wayile, Z G; Williams, A J; Williams-De Bruyn, S T; Xaba, P P; Ximbi, D L; Xingwana, L M; Yengeni, L E; Zikalala, C