Hon members, I wish to remind you that after the debate on the Second Reading of this Bill on Tuesday, 22 October 2013, the decision of question on the Second Reading was postponed. Are there any objections to the Lotteries Amendment Bill being read a second time? [Interjections.] Order, hon members! Order! Are there any objections? Alright, there are no objections. [Interjections.] Order, hon members! [Interjections.]
Speaker, the DA would like to call for a division on this, please. [Interjections.]
Order, hon members! Order! Order! Order! [Interjections.] All right, a division has been called for ...
Speaker, on a point of order: I wish to draw your attention to the fact that quite a number of members of the opposition have just left the Chamber. [Interjections.]
Hon member, what is out of order in that?
It is out of order in the sense that it is a violation of the principles of this House, which are that we work together to pass legislation without deliberate - deliberate - abstention and undermining of democracy. I ask you to rule on that.
I am ruling, hon member: A division has been called for. [Interjections.] Order!
Speaker, there are quite a few committees sitting. [Interjections.] I would like to advise you that there are several committees that are sitting and members are leaving to take up their duties there. [Interjections.]
In that case, why are you calling for a division? [Interjections.]
HON MEMBERS: Yes! [Laughter.] [Interjections.]
Order, hon members!
Order! Will the members please take their seats?
Hon Speaker ...
Order, I have not recognised you. I said that members must please take their seats. [Laughter.] Will members please take their allocated seats?
There was no debate.
Question put: That the Bill be read a second time.
Division demanded.
Order!
I am still waiting for the results. While waiting, let me review the following rules: A member demanding a division shall not leave the Chamber ... [Applause.] ... until the results of the division has been declared and shall vote with those who, in the opinion of the Presiding Officers, are in the minority. Those are the Rules.
The House divided:
AYES - 195: Abram, S; Adams, P E; Ainslie, A R; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Beukman, F; Bhengu, N R; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, P; Bikani, F C; Bonhomme, T; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Bothman, S G; Burgess, C V; Cele, M A; Chabane, O C; Chili, D O; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Dlakude, D E; Dlomo, B J; Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M C; Duma, N M; Dunjwa, M L; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gaum, A H; Gcwabaza, N E; Gelderblom, J P; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Gololo, C L; Goqwana, M B; Gumede, D M; Hajaig, F; Huang, S-B; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, F E; Khunou, N P; Koornhof, G W; Kubayi, M T; Kwankwa, N L; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Lesoma, R M M; Line- Hendriks, H; Lishivha, T E; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabedla, N R; Mabuza, M C; Madlala, N M; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Magagula, V V; Magama, H T; Magubane, E; Magwanishe, G; Mahomed, F; Makasi, X C; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, J M; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Mandela, Z M D; Mangena, M S; Manuel, T A; Mashatile, S P; Mashigo, R M; Mashishi, A C; Masilo, J M; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, D H; Mathibela, N F; Matlanyane, H F; Matshoba, J M; Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mdaka, M N; Mdakane, M R; Mfeketo, N C; Mfulo, A; Mgabadeli, H C; Mjobo, L N; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlambo, E M; Mlangeni, A; Mmusi, S G; Mnisi, N A; Moepeng, J K; Mohai, S J; Mohale, M C; Mohorosi, M M; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Moloto, K A; Moni, C M; Morutoa, M R; Moss, L N; Motimele, M S; Motlanthe, K P; Motsepe, R M; Mufamadi, T A; Mushwana, F F; N'wamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndebele, J S; Ndlazi, A Z; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngubeni-Maluleka, J P; Ngwenya, W; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; November, N T; Ntapane, S Z; Ntuli, Z C; Nxesi, T W; Nxumalo, M D; Nyalungu, R E; Nyanda, S; Nyekemba, E; Nzimande, B E; Oliphant, M N; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Petersen-Maduna, P; Phaliso, M N; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Pilusa-Mosoane, M E; Pule, D D; Radebe, B A; Schneemann, G D; Segale- Diswai, M J; Selau, G J; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibiya, D; Sindane, G S; Sithole, S C N; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Snell, G T; Sogoni, E M; Sonto, M R; Suka, L; Sulliman, E M; Sunduza, T B; Surty, M E; Swanepoel, D W; Thibedi, J D; Tinto, B; Tobias, T V; Tsebe, S R; Tseke, G K; Tshabalala, J; Tshwete, P; Tsotetsi, D R; Turok, B; Twala, N M; van Rooyen, D D; Van Wyk, A; Wayile, Z G; Xaba, P P; Xasa, T; Ximbi, D L; Xingwana, L M; Yengeni, L E.
NOES - 18: Boinamo, G G; Buthelezi, M G; Davidson, I O; Esau, S; Farrow, S B; James, W G; Lekota, M G P; Mpontshane, A M; Ndlovu, V B; Paulse, S; Selfe, J; Skosana, M B; Smuts, M; Swart, S N; Thring, W M; Van der Merwe, J H; Van Der Merwe, L L; Waters, M. ABSTAIN - 13: Adams, L H; Berend, S R; Botha, T; Diemu, B C; Kganare, D A; Kilian, J D; Koornhof, N N J v R; McIntosh, G B D; Mnguni, P B; Nhanha, M A; Njobe, M A A; Ntshiqela, P; Ramatlakane, L.
Abstentions are 13 and we will include hon Kalyan's vote. That is 14 abstentions in terms of the Rules.
Question agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a second time.
Speaker, on a point of order: I want to request that you please establish whether it is true that there are committees that are sitting at this point in time or if the hon member is possibly misleading the House.
Speaker, no permission was given to committees to have a committee sitting. [Interjections.]
Order! No committees are sitting. [Interjections.] I did not recognise you. Please raise your hand. I will recognise you. Don't raise a voice; raise a hand - all of you. Take your seat.
Mr Speaker, in light of the Rule that you have just referred to, in terms of which an hon member requesting a division may not leave the House, we ask you to give us a ruling as to what happens to the member, hon Kalyan, who left the House after requesting a division.
Let me read it again: A member demanding a division shall not leave the House until the result of the division has been declared and shall vote with those who, in the opinion of the presiding officer, are in the minority. Her vote has been counted with the minority - those who have abstained. That is what the Rule says.
Mr Speaker, may I just address you on that? If the Rule is that the member may not leave the House and she did leave the House, then there should be action taken against her. I would want to urge that the Speaker look into the matter. That is a peremptory rule. She may not leave the House and she did. There should surely be some kind of sanction for breaking the Rules. [Interjections.]
Hon member, please take your seat. I will recognise you. Don't speak before I recognise you.
Hon Speaker, following up on the issue of hon Kalyan, who has misled the House, in light of what the House Chairperson has said, I would like to request that she be ordered to withdraw and apologise for her misconduct.
Hon member, I will come back with a ruling. I said that earlier. Please, don't go back to that issue; I will come back to you with a ruling.
Mr Speaker, if I heard the hon House Chair correctly, no committees are sitting this afternoon. In my hand, in Annexure A, I have the notice that at 15h00 today, in E444, I must be present for the delivery of the Public Protector's report. [Interjections.]
Hon member, the Chairperson of Committees is here and there is only one Chairperson of Committees.
Hon Speaker, I think the hon Chair of Committees did not answer the question. The question was whether there are committees sitting, not whether there are committees that have permission to meet. He spoke about whether they have permission or not.
Hon member, the Chairperson of Committees said that there were no committees sitting. You are not the chairperson. [Interjections.] Order, hon members! Hon member, are you rising on this point or on a different point of order?
Speaker, I rise on the issue of committees that are sitting. Both the Committee on Police and the Committee on Finance are sitting and we have confirmation of that as well. Thank you very much.
Hon Speaker, on a point of order: I just wanted to say that if the hon Kalyan had to withdraw because she was misleading the House, then clearly we should ask the hon House Chairperson to also apologise for misleading the House.
Order!
Hon Speaker, the question was: Are any committee meetings taking place now that we are sitting? And I said that no permission was given to committees to sit when decisions were being taken. The protocol is that committees may apply, but permission is conditional: When the bells ring and a vote is called, they must suspend all their proceedings and proceed to the House. There was therefore no committee sitting while the vote was taking place. [Applause.]
Order, hon members. I will come back with a ruling on this issue.
Speaker, may I address you? I would like to advise you that I did not mislead the House. The Committee on Police is sitting in G26. [Interjections.] I went out to check for myself and I was locked out.
Hon member, please take your seat. I will come back with a ruling on this issue
Hon Speaker, can I just place on record that the Committee on Finance is not sitting. There was an assertion in this House that there is a Committee on Finance meeting.
Yes. When the bells are rung, no committee may sit. It means that people are invited to the Chamber. [Interjections.] The Bill will be sent to the NCOP for concurrence. [Applause.]