QUESTIONS TO THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:

Members, if you do wish to ask supplementary questions, you are advised to press your button on talk. I wish to remind hon members that the names of members requesting supplementary questions will be cleared as soon as the hon Deputy President starts answering the fourth supplementary question.

Question 1:

Hon Speaker, hon members, allow me to say, we meet in this Sixth democratic Parliament of the people to once again reaffirm the centrality of this legislative House of our elected representatives in ensuring that the executive is held accountable.

As this is the first Oral Reply of the Leader of Government Business during this term of office, we wish to emphasise the importance of using this platform to foster the unity of our people, social cohesion across all sectors of our society and the elevation of public participation in all government structures and processes. All of us here are duty-bound to make this Assembly a critical instrument in bridging the social distance between the people and ourselves as public representatives.

In response to the question at hand, let us remind ourselves that the primary objective of our delegated responsibility of assisting the President in this important work of revitalising the rural and township economies is to ensure that we transform townships and villages from being labour and consumption reserves into thriving productive investment hubs. This is in realisation that some of the key challenges that

are faced by our people in the township and rural economies is that our SMMEs in particular and entrepreneurs in general, lack the necessary economic infrastructure, lack markets, have restricted trading spaces, constraints in terms of their logistics and uneven provision of services.

This is further compounded by a lack of proper regulation and enforcement of bylaws around where people establish and operate their businesses, leading at times to confrontations between local communities and foreign nationals. The biggest challenge we face in our rural and township economies, is the poor enforcement of the bylaws governing our economic activities. In particular, this failure at the local level tends to lead to unnecessary tensions in communities over economic opportunities, more so with foreign nationals.

As a matter of priority, we need to strengthen our institutional capacity to enforce applicable laws and regulations to enhance the ease of doing business, prevent anticompetitive behaviour, and minimise conflict in township and rural economic spaces. Revitalising the rural and township economies requires focus on the twin objectives of investing in economic infrastructure and enterprise development on one

hand, and consistent application of and adherence to the regulations as provided for in our laws, on the other hand.

Our government's interventions in this regard are focused on these two areas in order to build a platform wherein future resources can be applied to increase our impact. Our government, through the Department of Trade and Industry, introduced the Industrial Parks Revitalisation Programme in order to facilitate broad-based economic participation so that we can achieve inclusive growth and facilitate the transformation of our economy.

The purpose of this programme is to revitalise South Africa's state-owned industrial parks and enable them to serve as catalysts for broader economic and industrial development, with a specific focus on townships and rural areas. This programme seeks to modernise our industrial parks infrastructure with the main objective of accelerating economic development by attracting investment in those areas. The programme also seeks to support job creation in manufacturing and related sectors so as to address underdevelopment and unemployment challenges that lead, in the main, to out- migration into our already-congested cities.

To date, government has already revitalised 10 industrial parks in the first phase of its programme with the next phase targeting an additional five industrial parks with already money spent estimated at R300 million. These industrial parks are in Botshabelo, Seshego, Komani, Isithebe and Vulindlela, to name a few. They have already provided industrial space to over 670 enterprises which in turn, provided direct employment to over 41 000 people primarily from each industrial park's surrounding townships.

In the next four months, government will launch the township entrepreneurship fund which will assist township entrepreneurs to either scale up their existing projects or provide start-up capital for new projects. In addition to these measures, government will also support township and rural economies through: Implementing a special dispensation or set asides in the awarding of medium and long-term contracts to small businesses, co-operatives, township and village enterprises to allow for a period of incubation and other support to help reduce failure rates; increasing support measures for co- operative enterprises by implementing critical elements of the newly-amended Co-operatives Act, including putting in motion the co-operative development agency and the training academy;

and also addressing the dominance of big retail chain stores in our township and rural areas.

These interventions, Madam Speaker, are designed to deliver substantial economic impact in a financially sustainable manner. They also represent the first phase to initiatives that will leverage government procurement and corporate supply chain development programmes. If successfully implemented, all these initiatives will promote job creation and reduce the failure rate of SMMEs. Thank you very much, hon Speaker. [Applause.]

Thank you hon Deputy President. Your response gives us hope. [Interjections.] However, hon Speaker, I have a follow-up question in this regard. Hon Deputy President, as we were criss-crossing the country during the election campaign, part of the challenges raised by the small business in the townships and rural communities was the collapse of their local businesses due to foreign nationals taking over the small businesses such as tuck-shops. What is government doing to address this particular challenge? Thank you.

Thank you very much for the follow-up question. Well, we have heard the complaints by our SMMEs, small enterprises in our townships and rural areas that foreign nationals are taking what normally should be their jobs and businesses. It is well-placed concern. What we are trying to do here is to ensure that every business that is undertaken in township and rural villages is regulated through our existing bylaws. We want to insist that every business that is being opened should follow the prescripts of the law and whatever is being traded in those businesses, government should check the quality of the products sold. We have been reliably informed that some of the businesses are selling expired goods. Government must ensure that those businesses selling expired goods are closed. Every business that is opened in our township and villages must be registered with our municipalities and provincial government. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Deputy President, yes, indeed there is a lot of talk about job creation, boosting the economy, economic growth, and township economic development. However, we must be realistic with the challenges that our people face on the ground. First of all, Deputy President, one of the problems is

the entire budget process. The budget process does not speak to the people on the ground. As a result, it does not address the needs and challenges of the people on the ground. Yes, indeed we talk about foreigners. There is a problem because municipalities are not ensuring that all these businesses are registered and are tax-compliant. As a result, the playing field is not equal. Spatial planning, if you take the City of Cape Town, people travel from townships. How are going to address this, Deputy President? Thank you.

Well, hon Speaker, I did not hear the question. What is the question?

MR A M SHAIK EMAM: Deputy President, the spatial planning in a lot of areas like the City of Cape Town does not address the challenges of people living in the townships, in creating jobs in the townships. How are we going to address that problem and ensure that the budget process takes the needs of the people in the community?

Thank you very much. At least it is now clear and I have heard the question. Well, national government is in the process of finalising the spatial integrated

framework that will tell us what to do and where in the country. But above all, we are insisting on integrated planning. National and provincial governments as well as municipalities must plan together because we are planning on a space that exists in the municipality. If we are building houses, there should be water, roads, schools and clinics. It is important that all of us plan together. So, we are starting a process where, together with provinces and municipalities, we are going to share our plans so that we deliver services in a co-ordinated fashion. Thank you very much.

Speaker, hon Deputy President, over the past two years there has been much government rhetoric regarding township economy. At least two extra-ordinary summits focusing on township economy were held. But since the summits, nothing concrete or measurable seems to have happened. In one of the summits, Deputy President you said that certain industries need to be ring-fenced and procurement of particular goods and services must come from township economies. That being the case, my question is whether government has a register of service providers in any township from which government can procure goods and services.

Information at our disposal is the number of the number of SMMEs spread throughout the country in each and every municipality, those that are registered and those that are not. The information at hand is that, instead of SMMEs, small businesses dying, we see the number increasing. Of course, I can account for informal businesses, SMMEs that are not registered in the formal system. We can account for formal SMMEs that are registered. But the complaint that we have received is that these SMMEs that are doing business with government are not paid on time. Hence, some of them die. This is one element that we are going to attend to. The three spheres of government must do everything in their power to ensure that, once we enlist or require services from SMMEs, they are paid on time.

Some of the SMMEs are complaining about the infrastructure in their township and rural villages, hence the revitalisation of all these industrial parks that belong to government. I said more or less 670 small businesses have already occupied those industrial parks and we are sure that the number will increase. What is important probably, is to sustain and ensure that the aftercare when an SMME starts getting business, it must be supported in terms of business management. If it does

business with government, it must be paid on time. In that way, we think the rate of success will increase. But again, we think government should provide the necessary market for some of the products that are produced by SMMEs because they can't compete evenly with those big companies. There are SMMEs that are producing bricks and all materials that government uses to build roads, schools and clinics. SMMEs must be prioritised. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

I'll take the question for the hon Ntlangwini, Madam Speaker. Deputy President, according to your NDP you have a target to reduce unemployment rate by 14% by 2020. Can you please remind the nation how many jobs did the NDP say should be created in order to reduce this unemployment? And realistically speaking, can you tell this nation how far you are from achieving this goal? Thank you.

I might not be precise in terms of the number of jobs that we have set ourselves in the NDP as a target. But all what I can say is that we have not done very well in terms of gradually going closer to that target. There are many factors that contributed to that. Definitely, we can only create jobs if we have an economy that is growing

gradually. An economy that is growing does not necessarily imply that it will create jobs. There should be an intervention to ensure that as it grows, job opportunities are created by those companies because every company that is trading is looking for profit. They will try in many ways to reduce what goes to payment of employees and capitalise on profit. So, it is important for government to ensure that some of the activities of every business that is opened are labour intensive so that it absorbs people. But, I must confess that as a country, because of the fluctuating economy, going up and down, we were almost in a recession and we have lost jobs. However, the pace at which we have lost jobs has been complemented by new jobs that were created.

We are very worried about the advent of new technologies that are being employed in our economy. Businesses are seeking better ways to minimise wastages. For instance, you have heard that Standard Bank is closing some of their outlets. In a space of one square kilometre Standard Bank had four to five outlets. They have just realised that they can do with one outlet and service people. Their tradition and thinking was that, in every trading space that is open, they must put a facility. They are changing that notion because people can do

their transaction without physically going to the outlet. As a result, we are going to lose jobs. So, as government we must find better ways to retrain those people and channel them into other sectors. Thank you very much.

Question 2

Madam Speaker, to respond to the question from hon Steenhuisen, the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, has reported that following the findings of the Auditor- General in the consolidated general Report on the Local Government Audit Outcomes for the 2017-18 financial year, the Auditor-General identified 48 municipalities that require special intervention.

In this regard, the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs will continue to implement support measures to improve leadership and governance in those municipalities, including specific focus on financial sustainability of those municipalities in question. Amongst other key areas, support is provided to ensure that action plans are implemented to reverse the negative audit outcomes. In collaboration with National Treasury and Salga, Cogta is

providing targeted support to improve revenue collection, budgeting, accounts reconciliation, debt management and the implementation of financial recovery plans.

Additionally, Cogta is supporting municipalities through post audit action plans, capacity building and strengthening financial and performance management systems in those municipalities. These are also complemented by the already deployed District Technical Support Teams to all those municipalities in question.

Through our Municipal Infrastructure Support Agency, struggling municipalities are supported to accelerate the implementation of infrastructure projects that address the delivery of basic services such as water and sanitation. This is one area where municipalities are greatly challenged. This support also includes procurement, contract management, project management, infrastructure maintenance and the overall institutional capacity to roll out infrastructure projects.

To strengthen government's support to local government, the President has appointed an Interministerial committee on service delivery at district level to co-ordinate the work of

government on the delivery of services in a manner that responds promptly to community concerns.

In the main, this committee will work with Cogta and key service delivery departments to respond in an integrated and co-ordinated fashion to challenges that are raised by our communities. Where appropriate, it will also enlist and mobilize partnerships with the private sector to complement government's resources in trying to respond to urgent development and service delivery challenges.

We are cognisant that at its briefing to the NCOP' Select Committee on Co- operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, on 16 July 2019, this year, the department indicated that within the next month it will brief Parliament on a comprehensive five-year strategic framework on how to deal with the challenges that are encountered by our municipalities. This will clearly outline interventions aimed at changing the face of our local municipalities.

We also anticipate that Parliament will engage the department's strategic framework when it is tabled so that together we can ensure the speedy implementation of our

interventions that are aimed at improving the quality of services to our people are delivered. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Madam Speaker, I am sure the Deputy President would agree with me that part of the service delivery protests happen when promises that are made don't intersect with the actually or the money set aside for delivery is siphoned off.

Now, one of the key hot spots in South Africa over the last few months has been Alexandra Township, in Johannesburg. I can hear the hon members on the other side saying, well; it is a DA-run municipality and absolutely. I think, Deputy President, we need to look at the origin of this because money was set aside for the Alex renewal project - R160 million in 2001 - announced from the very podium where you are standing by President Mbeki.

Deputy President, the truth of the matter is that money has all been siphoned off. Money to spend on housing, sanitation and community development has all been stolen and as a result, those services have not been rolled out.

Given the fact that the Gauteng MEC of Housing refuses to co- operate with the Human Rights Commission looking into this, would you, Deputy President, announce to us what steps is your government taking to look into what happened to that funding, where were those funds siphoned off by ANC members and steps that you are going to take to ensure that these service delivery crisis that are there are dealt with properly? Thank you. [Applause.]

On a point of order, Speaker.

A point of order.

Yes, Speaker. I am rising on Rule 137. Rule 137 provides that the follow up question must be relevant to the original question. The question asked is a new question altogether. Thank you, Speaker.

Can I rule on this. The follow up question is on issues related to townships. [Interjections.]

Hon Speaker, the question of Alexandra is obviously an issue that government is concerned about. You

will be aware that the President visited Alexandra. And definitely, we are going to co-operate with the provincial government and the municipality to deal with the Alexandra problem. We are going to work with Mayor Mashaba and Premier Makhura to deal with the problem.

In the process, we will find out what happened because before dealing with the problem, we are going to get the history of that project. We can promise the people of Alexandra that as government, we are going to co- ordinate our efforts regardless of our party affiliation. We are going to work with the DA to build those houses and make Alexandra a better place to live in. [Applause.] [Interjections.] I don't know. [Laughter.]

Now, if you know someone who has stolen money there, please, report that to the nearest police station as we speak. [Applause.] Thank you very much.

Madam Speaker, Mr Deputy President, the audit outcomes reveal, amongst other things, that the financial statements submitted for audit by municipalities are inconsistent with the reporting format. The concern, however, is that of the municipalities that are accused of this; they

then used consultants and spent an amount of R907 million in total to pay those consultants.

The fundamental question becomes, Mr Deputy President, that there is an acknowledgement here that the skills are not there, worse when consultants can't do the work that they are being paid for, that is a problem.

So, what is it specifically that government is going to do to ensure that the necessary requisite skills are present and live and that people who are fit for purpose are actually employed in municipalities because we are obviously tripping one financial year after the other with the same problem? Thirty municipalities over the past five years have received adverse or disclaimed findings and not one of them has been given 139 interventions.

So, the issue of consequent management becomes another concern here. I hear all the things you are saying but what are the speedy interventions that you will put in place because come next year, the same problem is going to arise?

I think as government, we realize and are cognisant of the problems that are affecting municipalities as shown by the audit outcomes. As government, we have accepted that we cannot make this a problem of the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. That's why the President said that we must have a team of departments - a committee of departments - that would work with Cogta so that we can make a speedy intervention.

Now, we need to deploy people with technical expertise in various sections and programmes of municipalities; whether financial or technical so that we support those areas. Where there are problems of service delivery because of the lack of right personnel and projects are uncompleted, this team will intervene to support the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs.

We acknowledge the fact that there might be a challenge with regard to leadership in all our municipalities; the management of the affairs of municipalities is not at its best hence this team supporting Cogta will come close to that space.

We are aware of the many service delivery protests that have turned violent and it is important that as government we shouldn't leave these service delivery protests just to go unabated. It is important that this committee must go in and seat down with the people, the municipality, the province and national department together to solve the problem. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Speaker, the people of Mafube Local Municipality are currently suffering as a result of a complete shut down of the municipality. Vehicles and banking accounts of this municipality have been ceased by a court order because of outstanding debts and no service delivery is currently taking place.

Violent protests have followed. This municipality has been under section 139 administration for the last two years already. My question is: Has Mafube been identified as a service delivery hot spot and what will be done by your government to provide immediate relief to the people of Mafube and solve this total shut down as the provincial government has proven that they can't and that the normal support programmes have failed and will continue to fail? I thank you.

Well, the municipality in question is part of those municipalities that have been identified by the Auditor-General as having collapsed with regard to providing services. So, definitely, it is going to be one of the priority municipalities that will be visited. Those visits will happen very soon. I can't, therefore, say what measures are going to be taken. We want to know exactly what the problem is.

If a municipality is put under section 139, of course, the NCOP is also part of that process. We are going to get all the people that are part of the challenges that are there and find an immediate solution.

As much as we are talking about internal problems in the municipality, we must ensure that people aren't suffering from service delivery because we are still talking. We need to unblock the blockages that are there so that people can get water and electricity while issues inside the municipality are being fixed. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Hon Speaker, Mr Deputy President, my question is: Have you engaged Salga ... [Interjections.] ...

don't shout at me, please ... on how it can engage accountability in getting institutions such as public accounts committee as to address the flagged and all compliance issues emerging from the Auditor-General's report?

Well, like we have said, hon Speaker that all issues that have been raised by the Auditor-General are on our radar screen. These are the issues that would be part of our intervention programme.

Firstly, the Auditor-General has raised a number of issues about each and every municipality that are wrong. Instead of going somewhere and find new issues, start with those issues that have already been identified as problematic. So, we are going to do just that. [Applause.]

Question 3:

Order! This question has been put to you by the hon Shivambu, but my instructions are that the hon Ndlozi will take care of the question.

Hon Speaker, section 209(1) of the Constitution of the Republic provides that "Any

intelligence service, other than any intelligence division of the defence force or police service, may be established only by the President, as head of the national executive, and only in terms of national legislation."

Currently, the National Strategic Intelligence Act, Act 39 of 1994, defines the functions of members of the national intelligence structures. The relevant members of the national intelligence structures provided for in terms of the Act to support government with intelligence services are the following: the Intelligence Division of the National Defence Force, the Intelligence Division of the SA Police Service, the State Security Agency and the service. As things stand, there is no Bill that the executive has considered or processed in respect of establishing intelligence services in any government department or state-owned entity. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Deputy President and Speaker. Deputy President, if there was a unit inside the SA Revenue Service, Sars, which collected intelligence using covert means, would it - according to the answer you have just provided - be illegal, meaning it would be a rogue unit? And, as a result,

would it mean that your government has to take action against the individuals involved, disband it and make sure that it doesn't happen again? Thank you.

The hon member would appreciate the fact that the matter he has been speaking about is, as we speak, before court to determine whether that unit was correctly established or not correctly established. So, it would be really premature or wrong for us to start talking about a matter that is before court. [Applause.] Let's allow the court to finalise the matter without our talking about it and putting forward our views. Thank you very much.

Point of order, Speaker.

What is your point of order?

With the greatest respect, hon Speaker, there is a precedent. The matter of sub judice has been clarified in that indeed we can. This is because there is no court that can suspend - owing to the separation of powers - your government being held accountable about the activities happening under your watch. Essentially, you are saying we can't do our duty

until a court says so. So, a matter can be commented on. There is a ruling of this House to that effect. Hon Speaker, I plead with you, direct the Deputy President, in line with the Constitution, to answer the question and not say, "No, I don't want to answer it." He must be held accountable. [Interjections.] His government must be held accountable. If there was a rogue unit within Sars, established by the hon Jamnadas, isn't it obvious that your government must take action against him and all those that participated in that unit? [Interjections.]

Thank you, hon member. May I rule on this point of order? Order! [Interjections.] Order! Hon members, the hon Ndlozi says we must rule on this matter. The truth of the matter is that this matter is not only before court, it is pending the decision of the court. Secondly, you do have a rule that says when any matter is pending a judicial decision - it is very specific - that we cannot talk about it. I don't think that that says we are mum, that we are scared, or that we can't deal with the matter. I think that the precedent you are referring to is something that I will look at, but for now I will rule that that question, this supplementary, be set

aside until I can get clarity on that. Therefore, Deputy President, your response for today is sufficient. [Applause.]

Hon Ndlozi, I do not want to enter into a question-and-answer session with you. Deputy President, please take your seat.

Speaker, I respect that. Can I address you, Speaker?

You will address me.

Thanks. I respect that. But can we get an assurance that you will direct him to write that answer to us? Because you are going to make up your mind as you say, hon Speaker, as to whether you should persuade the Deputy President to answer ... because we submitted a question. This is the follow-up. We are well within our rights. If you arrive at the determination that the Deputy President ... there's no court order that says we can't hold him accountable. If you arrive at such a determination, could you please have him put it in writing because our supplementary question was not answered?

Thank you very much. The supplementary question was answered. I want to say to all of you, members, that I find it very difficult when you instruct us on how to rule when we are presiding. It is very problematic. I've ruled on this matter, and it will stay there. Hon Steenhuisen, you have a matter?

THE CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, may I request that this matter is referred to the Rules Committee, because we have had precedents in the past. There are rulings from the hon Ginwala made in the House before, as well as in the Fifth Parliament. The sub judice rule no longer applies in South African law. The Midi Television case, held in the Constitutional Court, was very clear on that. What we can't do is discuss the merits of the case. But, frankly, there are other issues that relate to the so-called rogue unit that have been dispensed with already by the Nugent Commission, as well as by Parliament. I think that to rule this type of question out of order severely impedes Members of Parliament's ability in this. So, may I ask that this ruling is referred to the Rules Committee urgently, otherwise Ministers and the executive are going to hide behind the sub judice continually

in spite of the Midi Television ruling in the courts. Thank you.

Hon members, I will refer this to the Rules Committee, but my ruling stands. The supplementary to the Deputy President says he must express an opinion, and that opinion would be out of order as he is not a court. That is why I am ruling it out of order. Could we proceed, please, to the hon Singh?

Speaker, one can only smile at how loaded this question is, but it is the right of any member to ask any question in this House. That aside, gathering information as such is not illegal if done within the confines of the law. Businesses gather information, state-owned entities gather information, and that is commonly referred to as due diligence. I trust, hon Deputy President, that the government is not intending to silence those who enter into a due diligence process. For example, Denel may want to examine what the ground is like when they get an order for arms, and they would look at other suppliers around the world and they would do due diligence. Is it the intention of government to

suppress any state-owned entity from doing due diligence? Thank you.

Probably, I should refer you to the Act. I am going to read some extracts from the Act to provide clarity for all of us:

Functions of other departments of State with reference to national security intelligence

If any law expressly or by implication requires any department of State, other than the Agency or the Service, to perform any function with regard to the security of the Republic or the combating of any threat to the security of the Republic, such law shall be deemed to empower such department to gather departmental intelligence, and to evaluate, correlate and interpret such intelligence for the purpose of discharging such function: Provided that such department of State- ... shall not gather departmental intelligence within the Republic in a covert manner ...

I could go on and on. [Interjections.] But, but, but ... any department that seeks to gather information should do that through a law, and that law should come through this Parliament. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Thank you, Speaker. Deputy President, let me remind this House that there are legal experts that are saying that this rogue unit is not necessarily illegal even though it hadn't come via the President. That's the first thing. But, the intelligence in South Africa, in my view, Deputy President, is ineffective. Had it been effective, then, of course, my friends in red would not have looted the VBS bank, for starters. They would not have evaded Sars and they would have paid their taxes. [Interjections.] Now, what are you going to do, Deputy President, to ensure that intelligence is more effective in South Africa?

Hon Emam, have you finished putting your question?

There is no question. I am rising on a point of order.

Can I address him first? Have you finished, sir, putting your question?

Deputy President, what are you going to do to ensure that we have more effective intelligence to prevent the looting of funds like what happened by my friends in red with the VBS bank and the evasion of taxes in South Africa through Sars? [Applause.] Could you please tell us?

Hon Ndlozi, you rose on a point of order. What is your point of order?

The point of order is that the hon member says there are people who are wearing red - and the hon Barbara there is wearing red - who have looted VBS bank. The Chief Whip of the House is wearing red. Has she looted VBS bank? If that is the case, he is impugning the reputation of hon members without a substantive motion. I would rule that you rule him out of order. He must withdraw those comments, because people are wearing red in this House. There is no court of law that has said they have looted any bank. Thank you.

The point of order, Madam Speaker, is simply this, and the hon Shaik doesn't have a Whip so it falls on me to do it. There have been plenty of precedents in the House that a member can make any comment about a political party, but can't make it about individuals. So, even if the hon Shaik had said the EFF had looted from VBS, it would have been within the Rules. If he had identified an individual and said the individual's name or "Member X" had done it, it would have been outside the Rules. The hon Shaik is well within his rights to say what he did. [Interjections.]

Speaker ...

Hon Deputy President, please take your seat. Hon Mkhaliphi?

Speaker, on a point of order: We can't move on that premise, because if someone stood up here and said, "The DA have stole the land", that one is going to be a problem. [Interjections.] So, please ask Shaik Emam not to provoke the EFF, because no court of law, or any report for that matter, has found any EFF on that report. So, we must not enter into that debate, especially with this member who has a

fraud case, but we don't speak about that fraud case here, Speaker. Thank you.

Okay. Thank you very much. Hon members, may I rule? [Interjections.] Order! Order! Hon members, it is not unparliamentary to refer to a political party. We have had precedents. If you remember, in 2014, there was a matter taken to court by the EFF and we lost that matter as Parliament, because they referred to the ANC in a particular manner. So, that the hon Shaik Emam went, in a very roundabout way, to pose his question - and referred to members wearing red - is actually not unparliamentary. So, I rule against that. Hon Deputy President, please proceed.

Thank you very much, hon Speaker.

Hon members, please take your seats.

I differ with the assertion by the hon member who said in the follow-up question that our intelligence structures are not up to scratch. I will differ with that, because, as we stand, we are in a very

secure country. We are out of any threats. We are not threatened as South Africa. Our defence is doing very well. Our police are doing very well. Of course, there might be issues that will crop up from time to time, but that does not mean our intelligence structures are ineffective. There, I beg to differ. They are. The country is stable. There is no threat that you can say: There is foreign invasion; there is this and this. Our intelligence structures are effective. Thank you very much.

Thank you, sir. That last supplementary goes to the hon Mkaliphi. Hon Mkaliphi, have you forfeited? [Interjections.] Okay. If she has forfeited ... Have you forfeited? I now recognise the hon Magwanishe.

Thank you very much, Speaker. The State Security Agency is very critical to our national security, economic stability and the maintenance of our democracy, amongst other things. Improvement in the regulatory mechanism is urgent to split domestic and foreign branches, as promised by the President in his state of the nation address. We also need these regulatory mechanisms to deal with the creation of

the position of Deputy Inspector-General for Intelligence Services. Could you comment on that, Deputy President?

Well, my comment is that I agree with you. I agree with you. Thank you very much. [Laughter.] [Applause.]

Question 4:

Hon

Speaker, our country's blueprint, the National Development Plan, states clearly that, in order to eliminate poverty and reduce inequality, South Africa has to raise levels of employment, and thereby ensuring that people earn incomes and sustain their livelihoods.

As one of our major public employment initiatives, the Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, is our flagship programme which contributes to the National Development Plan's core objective of achieving a decent standard of living for all South Africans by 2030.

This programme focuses on creating work opportunities that enhance the acquisition of skills across a range of trade

areas such as construction, plumbing, welding, painting, infrastructure maintenance - just to name a few.

In the process, those participating are paid stipends to sustain themselves and their families, thereby impacting and mitigating extreme poverty in our communities.

Central to the objectives of this programme is ensuring that, based on training and skills acquired during training, EPWP beneficiaries can now move into sustainable employment within the labour market. Alternatively, new pathways are created for these EPWP beneficiaries to engage in business venture creation, utilising training and skills acquired in the programme.

Experience from the implementation of this programme indicates that the programme has contributed towards the alleviation of poverty and provision of work experience to the participants. Since phase one of the programme, more than 10 million work opportunities have been created with over R64 billion paid in wages to participants.

Even though the Expanded Public Works Programme offers short- term employment, the income support it provides, in terms of wages to all those who are participating, makes a meaningful contribution towards reducing prevailing levels of poverty.

As it enters its fourth phase, the Expanded Public Works Programme will continue to draw its significant number of the unemployed South Africans, especially our young people, into productive work in a manner that will enable them to gain skills, increase their capacity to earn income, and contribute towards the betterment of our country.

However, to broaden the scale and impact, the increased participation of the private sector and other non-state actors will be critical in the implementation of EPWP phase four. Our experience suggests that, while government has invested in this programme over the past few years, private sector participation has been limited or nonexistent.

One of the major challenges facing the programme in provinces has to do with the placement of EPWP graduates after the end of their contracted periods. Some of the beneficiaries have had to go back home. As an unintended consequence, this has

created an expectation that government has to employ all these EPWP graduates. Such a position is fiscally untenable and unsustainable.

We need an approach that draws in a significant contribution from our private sector partners. Our close collaboration with the private sector will ensure that a placement plan is jointly agreed to, in order to ensure that opportunities are created by companies for the placement of some of the EPWP participants after graduating, depending on the skills they have acquired.

As part of increasing the intake of young people into public employment, government has already removed the requirement of experience as one of the criteria in the recruitment of new graduates.

Going forward, the work of the antipoverty inter-ministerial committee will integrate our Public Employment Programme with other antipoverty initiatives focusing on broad based participation in the productive sectors of our economy.

As we have highlighted in our earlier response, it is critical to prioritise the development of rural and township economies as part of boosting employment prospects in these poverty stricken areas.

Alongside public employment programmes, specific focus will continue to be put on enterprise and skills development initiatives to empower our unemployed young people to participate in all key sectors of our economy. Thank you, hon Speaker.

Madam Speaker, to the Deputy President, the issue of providing EPWP jobs as a shot-term measure to alleviate poverty whilst empowering the beneficiaries of certain skills acquisition ... reality of the situation is that we want young people to turn these jobs and create sustainable employment. Now, the Deputy President mentions the fourth phase and 10 million young people that have been absorbed.

The public sector has done away with the issue of young people required to have experience in the entry level. What are we going to do to ensure that the private sector is tailor made?

What is the monitoring evaluation that we are going to do to say that the private sector is playing an advancement role? We need the private sector to come onboard on the issue. The question is: What are we going to do to ensure the private sector plays the role, and also ensure that the economy also grows to a level where we can create sustainable jobs on this EPWP?

Deputy President, you have been given a number of supplementaries in that question. I have identified about three and you are free to respond to one.

Hon

Speaker, I think on the side of government, the shortcoming is that we have not persuaded the private sector enough. The President made an announcement that we are going to eliminate the experience part for new entrants in the public service. For us, as government, we must persuade the private sector to afford our young people an opportunity to gain experience; remove this requirement of experience in every post that is advertised. So, we must do our part in order to motivate and persuade the private sector to join government so that we deal with this unemployment.

The second part is that this programme, as much as it is offering people short-term employment, it is not aimed at creating permanence but what we recognise is that it deals with poverty at that time and also offers these young people skills that they can use to find employment or create their own small enterprises. So, this programme must be supported. Some of the young people who participated in the EPWP are now running their small enterprises and they are being supported. So, it is a good programme. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Speaker, to the Deputy President, you have waxed lyrical about the public employment programmes and numbers of work opportunities they have provided. But let us be honest here, the EPWP is nothing more than a social security programme. Nowhere is this more evident than in the fact that the EPWP participants are paid at 55% of the minimum wage. Yet, you yourself, Deputy President, have said that the ANC believes that the national minimum wage is not a living wage but a significant milestone towards it. And yet, in an interesting plot twist, former Deputy Minister, Jeremy Cronin, admitted that if EPWP participants were to be paid at minimum wage, the number of people employed in the programme will decline by 50% due to lack of affordability. That is certainly

an interesting justification for noncompliance with your own laws.

So, this then begs the question: In a country where almost

10 million people are unemployed and where the minimum wage is recognised as a barrier to employment and not being implemented, why would government impose a national minimum wage on all other sectors including the private sector?

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA: Our

understanding of this programme is that all participants that are there are given a stipend and are also afforded an opportunity to gain skills. They are offered training and that training is money. Government is paying money to train those participants in the different skills that are there, whether construction, plumbing and all that. [Interjections.] We considered this as a stipend as people participate as people try and gain the necessary skills. That is why it is a shot- term programme that takes an individual to a certain point where they can find gainful employment because of the skill in possession or start their own business. Thank you very much.

Madam Speaker, to the Deputy President, would you consider the establishment of poverty alleviation fund that will expressly focus on the poverty alleviation projects so as to assist many that are poor - more especially the people that are living in squalor conditions? Thank you.

Well, I

haven't thought of a creation of a fund because fighting poverty should be a co-ordinated effort stemming from different role players, departments and spheres of government collaborating to deal with a poverty stricken area.

Poverty is not only about getting food but also the provision of infrastructure, schools, roads, water, everything. So, this needs an integrated effort to those who are charged with certain responsibilities of providing roads and schools. So, creating a fund will defeat this collaborative idea that we are putting forward. Thank you very much.

Speaker, to the Deputy President, the ACDP believes that, in view of the high unemployment rate, as part of a wide employment plan, public employment can, to a certain limited degree, compliment private sector employment. However,

and this is a response to the first question, policy makers agree that thriving SMMEs are a key to job creation in the country.

The NDP, as indicated earlier, predicts 11 million new jobs or needed by 2030, 90% by SMMEs. A key finding in the EPWP phase three review was that partnership should be strengthened with the private sector and it was alluded to in an earlier question and you answered on how that can be strengthened.

Deputy President, would you give us an indication that one of the problems with SMMEs is access to funding? Would you agree that if there is greater funding for SMMEs they will be able to partner with the EPWP phases and create more jobs? Is that something that government will be looking into considering that SMEs are the greatest job creation mechanisms? Thank you.

I agree

with that assertion because in the programme of EPWP as mush as we are intervening in terms of poverty and giving people stipends, what is long- term is that these people come out of the programme with skills. With those skills they can start their own business or they can find employment.

Now, you are saying that as you support EPWP which is the gaining of skills and the training, you must also support SMMEs because the likelihood is that these people are going to be absorbed by these SMMEs and that is what we are doing. Government has decided to create a Department of Small Business so that we can place focus squarely on growing small enterprises.

We are going to support the Minister of Small Business and work together so that these SMMEs are supported and there is an aftercare programme that they do not fail or relapse so that an opportunity is created to absorb these participants of EPWP. Thank you.

Question 5:

Hon

Speaker, as we have indicated earlier, part of the new responsibilities delegated to us by the President, is to coordinate interventions aimed at stimulating rural and township economies. This work includes facilitation of socioeconomic empowerment models for increased economic inclusion at a local level, championing of high impact tourism empowerment projects for rural and township communities, and

facilitation of linkages to private and public markets and value chains for small, medium and micro enterprises, SMMEs, in special economic zones across the country.

For the benefit of the House, the socioeconomic empowerment models we are referring to here, as per our delegated responsibility, flows from an appreciation that across the country, in every province and every district, there are a number of local economic development initiatives that are working, of course they are fragmented and they are disconnected.

We believe that if these economic activities were to be consolidated and co- ordinated, with a view to alleviate and elevate their potential business and growth potential, a lot of our rural and township enterprises can be uplifted and supported to become sustainable with the capacity to contribute to our local economic development, capacity job creation in these district and local communities.

In the process, the much needed employment to respond to the present youth unemployment challenge could thus be addressed.

We trust that you will agree with us, hon members, that rural and township economies are places where there are vast untapped productive capacities and markets.

Think of how many panel beatings and spray painting operations, how many wheels and tyre operations, how many carpentry, welding, textile and creative industries that are found in many parts of our townships and rural areas. Think of how many women-led small scales, informal enterprises that are there to feed these entrepreneur's families and educate their children. The potential in our township and rural areas is vast and it's untapped. These are the real small businesses that must be uplifted and provided with the necessary support whether financial or non financial, so that they can prosper.

Our models should ask what purpose would be development of big malls and big shopping centres which does serve or support local markets and value chains in those townships and rural areas.

For township and rural economies to thrive, localization and ring fencing of certain economic sectors to achieve real

transformation, should be the primary pillars of this programme.

We will not meaningfully address the existing obstacles to sustainable participation of black people, especially those that are operating within township and rural economies, if we do not take bold actions currently, to create the necessary conditions that would deconcentrate economic activity from big players.

Therefore, dealing with this unemployment challenge requires a comprehensive and co-ordinated approach that is targeted and multi- sectoral. This effort requires careful development and co-ordination of relevant opportunities, taking into account the level of know-how of unemployed young persons.

While government does have various interventions and partnerships through national government, provincial government and our agencies, we need to ensure that all these interventions that are targeted to address youth unemployment must be part of a multipronged intervention which includes skills development especially for those young people who are

not in employment, who are not in education facility or training.

Furthermore, we need to direct industrial funding towards our young people to provide the capital for the growth and expansion of their ideas. Four years ago, targets were set for industrial financing to young empowered enterprises over a period of five-year period.

Within one year that is left in this period, the Industrial Development Corporation, IDC, has already exceeded its targets, providing more than R5,1 billion in funding to more than 120 youth-empowered enterprises.

In addition to funding our youth, we have to find ways to open up markets so that new enterprises can complete and compete fairly. Earlier this month, the Competition Amendment Act was promulgated by the President. As key focus of these amendments is on opening markets where concentration and the behaviour of dominant firms is harmful to the creation of jobs and the growth of small and medium businesses in sectors across the economy.

Our response therefore seeks to consolidate various impactful initiatives that are being implemented in a fragmented manner by some provincial governments and national departments.

The interventions will identify, develop and support qualifying SMMEs in order to assist them to become competitive manufacturers and suppliers of building materials where these could be sourced for development of human settlements and paving of municipal roads and pathways.

For our part as government, we will to support SMMEs and Co- operatives through targeted procurement initiatives for government's infrastructure and human settlements projects.

As we move forward, the Anti-Poverty Inter-Ministerial Committee will prioritise the implementation of economic empowerment models that aggregate government's procurement spend in key areas to drive the incubation and participation of small businesses in general, and in township and rural areas.

We are pleased that some of the government departments and provinces have started with piloting and implementing some of

these initiatives. For instance, the Department of Small Business Development is implementing the Aggregated Community Produce for School Nutrition Programme while Mpumalanga, where I come from, the province has begun with the implementation of Government Nutrition Programme to stimulate agricultural production and empower farmers to supply fresh produce to government institutions such as hospitals and schools. In KwaZulu-Natal the Radical Agrarian Socio-economic Transformation provides support to small-scale farmers by offering them market access to leverage on government procurement.

There are various economic empowerment models that are being implemented in other provinces, but like we have said our approach is fragmented. Our task, as the centre of government, is to lead, coordinate and consolidate our efforts to expand the scale and the impact.

As we upscale these programmes, we must pay particular attention to the incubation of young people and women owned enterprises to support their meaningful participation in the economy. Thank you very much [Applause.]

IsiZulu:

Mshengu ngiyabonga ngempendulo onginikeza yona, kodwa ngicabanga ukuthi uzovumelana nami uma ngithi ezinye zezisombululo noma izixazululo ozinikezayo, yizixazululo sesikhathi eside. Into engikhathazayo kakhulu ukuthi abantu baseNingizimu Afrika ikakhulukazi intsha ibukene nokusweleka kwemisebenzi. Esizokudinga izixazululo ezisheshayo ezingaveza amathuba emisebenzi njengamanje. Ngicela ukwazi Sekela Mongameli ukuthi kungabe ihhovisi lakho nohulumeni banazo yini izixazululo eziphuthumayo ezingashesha zidale amathuba emisebenzi? Nokuthi uma esekhona amathuba emisebenzi senza kanjani ukuthi kube ngabantu baseNingizimu Afrika abazuza kuqala kulawo mathuba kunokuba kuzuze abantu abaqhamuka kwamanye amazwe? Ngiyabonga.