Deputy Chairperson, the budget for the Independent Police Investigative Directorate, Ipid, has been an issue for as long as I can recall. Every year, members express the shock of how underfunded the directorate is and saying in the committee that this needs to change immediately. This year we were made privy to the information on how effectively, in terms of time, the directorate can deal with criminals within the police. The conclusion was that, no matter how a job they do, the current caseload versus capacity problem will sooner, rather than later, will render Ipid entirely ineffective. The consequence is, through its carelessness in this budget, the government is single-handedly protecting criminals in the police and ensuring that this mafia mob continues to thrive. It is in the hands of this House today to vote down this budget and to
ensure that the Ipid gets properly funded. Each member voting for this budget is voting despite their best intentions in the committee for the protection of criminals within the SA Police Service, SAPS. Now is not the time for my hon colleagues in the ANC to sit back and toe the party line. It is time to act in the interest of your constituents or to explain to them why a New Dawn means, that criminals continue to be protected and why their safety - that of the people who voted for you - don't seem to matter. I appeal to you, for once, do the right thing and vote this down for the sake of the people we serve, every woman, man and child and their safety. The DA cannot support this budget and neither should you. Thank you, Chair.
I wanted you to vote for the Women budget.
Deputy Chairperson, the ANC supports Budget Vote 20, the Independent Police Investigative Directorate, this vote reflects the ANC's unwavering commitment and determination to fight all forms of corruption and malfeasance by corrupt police officers who are entrusted to protect and promote public safety. The Ipid plays a critical role in ensuring that professional ethics are maintained within the policing environment and ensuring that we have a police
service that is free of corruption and adheres to a high level of professionalism and ethics.
The Ipid conducts independent, impartial and quality investigations of identified criminal offences allegedly committed by the members of the SA Police Service and the municipal police services and to make appropriate recommendations in line with the Independent Police Investigative Directorate Act while maintaining the highest standard of integrity and excellence and promoting respect for the rule of law and human dignity. The Ipid will continue to investigate and work on high-profile cases to ensure successful prosecutions, work with the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, to ensure the successful prosecution of cases and ensure that the Ipid investigates cases effectively and efficiently. As the ANC, we agree that the budget allocation to the Ipid needs attention, and this directorate needs to be better resourced to tackle corruption in the police force. Despite the budgetary challenges, the Ipid has had successes in criminal convictions. They have referred cases to the NPA for prosecution and they have secured disciplinary convictions and clearly the DA, in terms of what they are saying, is a serious contradiction.
This Budget Vote resonates with our National Development Plan, NDP, which provides that in 2030, people living in South Africa, feel safe at home, at school and at work and they enjoy a community life free of fear, women walk freely in the streets and children play safely outside and the ANC's 54th national conference resolutions. The ANC supports this Budget Vote. [Applause.]
I am tempted to say that the "noes" have it but they really don't have it. The "yeses" have it. [Interjections.] ... can you go on record.
Deputy Chair, perhaps we should not be treated like school children and be able to at least put on our own mikes because it is quite an irritating thing but, in any case, the DA calls for a division.
I do not know what that is about, you can ask the Table.
It is a nuisance to get you mike on Deputy Chairperson. We have to wait for someone from above.
We can ask the Table during the break to explain to us what is happening here.
Division demanded.
The Council divided.
AYES: 34: Bebee, L C; Carrim, Y I; Dangor, M; Gillion N M; Govender, L P; Gxoyiya, A B; Llatchminarain, T; Mamaregane, L; Matibe, T B; Matiwane, T; Mfayela, S E; Mohai S J; Moshodi, L M; Modise, T C; Mthethwa, E M; Mahlangu, D G; Maleka, A D; Mkiva, Z; Mokgonyana, E M; Mmoiemang, K M; Mmola, M P; Ncitha, Z V; Ndongeni, N; Nkosi, S C; Ntsube, I; Ngwenya, W; Nchabaleng, M Nyambi, A J; Njadu, E J; Rayi, M I; Rosho, M Z; Saziwa, M; Sekoati, S C; Shaikh, S.
NOES: 19: Apleni, T; Arnolds, A; Aucamp, W A S; Bara, M R; Boshoff, H S; Botswe, M; Brauteseth, T J; Baartman, D; Christians, D C; Du Toit, S F; Koni, N P; Lehihi, S B; Luthuli, S A; Michalakis, G; Moletsane, M S; Ryder, R; Schafer, B; Sileku, I M; Visser, C.
Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).
Business suspended at 17:10 and resumed at 17:27
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF the NCOP: Hon members, there was an issue that we ruled on earlier. What is a bit concerning is that I would want the Chief Whip to report this to me, and not anyone to communicate or correspond with me directly on it - because I am not responsible for the speakers' list and other things in the House. It is the responsibility of the Chief Whip and I want the secretaries to give this letter to the Chief Whip so that he can clarify it for us. In the meantime, let us continue whilst we are waiting for the Chief Whip's clarity. Yes, please. If you can, it would assist. It would really assist.
Deputy Chair, it is regarding the earlier ruling of the Deputy Chair concerning the special delegate from the Western Cape province. We have since received confirmation that the hon member was designated to be in the Council today. So the matter was forwarded to the secretary's office, Adv Phindela. He was putting the matter on our attention and I think it will be a matter that will be handled through normal channels.
Can I just say this. No one will ask me to apologise, because I am here as a Presiding officer and I
work with what is in front of me and with what the table officials have with them. If there is nothing on the table, I am just continuing.
Deputy Chairperson!
I don't owe anyone an apology.
Just on a point of clarity, I am not quite clear right now whether the member is now allowed to participate on the vote, I gather from what the Chief Whip said that all the papers are in order and that he may now participate. But I don't have clarity on that.
Can I start by saying, I requested the secretary and the table to clarify to me at the moment when I ruled - was it correct or was it incorrect - Because, there was no correspondence to that effect in front of us. We were correct when we did that ruling as there was no correspondence.
Subsequently, I received a handwritten letter here on my table of which I still said it cannot be my issue. It should be something
that the whip should have clarified and it should have been reported to this House through the Chief Whip.
The Chief Whip is now reporting that the secretary subsequently said that he was contacted. In fact, the secretary said after the ruling, he was contacted and people showed him that there was a kind of correspondence. It's not about whether I was wrong or right, it is about what is the way forward now.
If the Chief Whip say, in terms of the way forward, this person can participate, it is not for me to say yes or no. I just work with what is in front of me and what has been clarified by the Chief Whip. It seems as if it is not clear for the DA whether the member... and I have subsequently heard from the secretary that the name of the member is hon Dylan Michelle.
I am just saying it because ordinary English have become so distorted that when I say foreigner someone think I am speaking about something else. But when I went to school my teacher taught me that vreemdeling [stranger] is foreigner. And a person that I don't know is a vreemdeling [stranger] to me. No. English is my fifth language, so don't come and tell me I was... A foreigner is a vreemdeling.
It is because you distort English in South Africa. That is where this thing is coming from. If you go to the dictionary and you say, antonym or synonym you will see the synonym for stranger is foreigner. Go and check that.
Hon Deputy Chairperson, on dealing with matters of this nature, I have consulted with the provincial whip, hon Labuschagne, who confirmed that matters that were not clear are now since clarified and there is a formal communication. In good faith, we believe that the Secretary of the NCOP, Adv Phindela will submit such correspondence. It is my view that the member should be allowed to participate in the House.
I don't know the member. I have nothing against him and I am here to make sure that I uphold the rules and the decorum of the House. Thank very much hon members and welcome to hon Michell. We are going to proceed to the vote.
Vote 21 - Justice and Constitutional Development- put and agreed to.
I am sorry the ten minutes was a bit short for me to address that to you but I will definitely address it.
No, it is fine, Deputy Chair. The EFF objects.
thank you very much. The EFF, DA, FF plus objects.
Afrikaans:
Die EFF, FF-besigheid maak ons bietjie deurmekaar hier.
English:
Is there any Declaration of Vote? The EFF - you may continue.
Declaration of vote:
Deputy Chair, our democracy is built on the principle of constitutionalism, the separation of powers and accountability. For five years we seen how this separation... [Interjection.]
...use the microphone hon member, you are not audible, just yes...yes you are not audible, ...
MR S ZAMNDELA: ... is it? No, the must just listen and not talk...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON (Ms S LUCAS)...they are, we are, all of us are listening, but you are really not audible.
MR S ZAMNDELA ... my voice, yah, it's fine. For five years we have seen how this separation of powers and these systems of accountability have protected our democracy. At the forefront of that is the fight with the office of the Public Protector by the ruling party, but it seems that in this country and this very Parliament, there are people who do not respect Chapter 9 institutions unconditionally and as a matter of principle, EFF is the only organisation in this Parliament that has consistently defended the constitution and the office of the Public Protector.
The Public Protector is the constitutional body established in terms of section nine of the constitution, yet the constitutional delinquent, Pravin Gordhan who have been find to have violated the constitution on multiple occasions, continue to be the member of this Parliament. We can not continue to allow political parties and individuals, particularly office bearers and the executive to discredit the office of the Public Protector and undermine our constitution, but protecting the office of the Public Protector is the only way that things that need to happen in this term of office, in Sixth Parliament to be precise.
There are number of issues that need to be urgently addressed and top of the list is the release of all political prisoners. All
prisoners who are in jail for political reasons more specifically the struggle for liberation need to be released. We can not continue to have butchers like F W De Klerk walk free while freedom fighters languished in jail. Secondly we need to pardoned all Fees must fall activists who are currently in jail or who have to regularly appear in court for fighting for free education. You and all of us, here as members we supported the struggle for free education, so you must allow yourselves to be guided by your revolutionary conscience and release all Fees must fall activists.
There is also an urgent need to introduce measures to strengthen the Judiciary Service Commission to ensure the filling up of the judiciary vacancies. We can not continue to have vacancies in our judiciary and justice system - because that reduces capacity and the people's overall trust in the state to deliver justice. So EFF objects the Budget. Thank you.
Deputy Chairperson, we have among a few others one serious concern with this Budget of the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development and that is the Budget of National Prosecuting Authority has been cut for the third year in row. The consequence of this is that more 600 posts of prosecutors have been cut. The country where police who have to go after the criminals are
having their cut, Independent Police Investigative Directorate, IPID, which has to keep police free of criminals are grossly underfunded and now two few prosecutors are appointed to see that these criminals are sent to jail and posts being cut further.
It's clear that the new dawn does extend to a more effective criminal justice system. Our safety does not matter to the ANC - you know that, this is true. The DA government would have made this a priority because we know that safety is vital to individual freedom, again for the sake people we serve, every woman, man, child and their safety, the DA can not support this Budget and neither should you.
Deputy Chairperson, maybe let me first put upfront that the ANC is the custodian of the constitution of this country. Secondly we support and respect the justice system of the country. I rise here to support the Budget Vote of Justice and Constitutional Development. The national development states upfront that the South Africa which we want in third years of this democracy. Among others is that, all people are safe in this country by building a safer communities and developmental state which is free of corruption. The Justice and Constitutional Development, therefore plays critical
role in ushering the country to the desired state in which, we wish to find ourselves and future generation living in 2030.
The ANC has been resolute on the war on corruption and led by the President Cyril Ramaphosa, who is the State President of this country, who said in his speech:
The decisive steps we have taken to end state capture and fight corruption including measures to strengthen the National Prosecuting Authority, Special Investigating Unit in South Africa.
Revenue services and State Security are achieving important results but there is still much work to be done. The following is commitment to bring about ability to leadership in the NPA, to make sure that the appointment of new National Directorate of Public Prosecution. The NPA which is an entity of justice funded by the Budget plays a critical role in the functioning of the criminal justice system. The NPA ensures that justice is served.
We are encouraged that the aspirant prosecutor programme has been resuscitated as is this will strengthen the capacity of the NPA. We are also encouraged by newly established Investigating Directorate within the NPA; it will assist in rooting out social corruption,
crime and state capture. We encourage the department to avail some funds to directorate as a special skills and capacity is needed.
The ANC struggle with the human rights, which include the right to legal representation. There is no justice when courts can only be accessible to the wealthy. Legal Aid South Africa is also funded by the department and assists those who can not pay for their legal fees. Over the years legal services has good work to do. Thank you very much.
Vote No 21 - Justice and Constitutional Development - put
There was no debate.
Division demanded.
The Council divided: