Thank you very much hon Chairperson...
Xitsonga:
... Vaholobye lava nga kona na Swandla swa Vaholobye, ku katsa na Vaholobyenkulu hinkwavo lava nga kona laha, ndzi tile ku ta andlala xiviko xa timali ta tiko.
English:
The Minister tabled the 2019/2020 Medium Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS, on 31 October 2019. After the Minister's tabling of the MTBPS, the House referred the Revised Fiscal Framework for the present financial year,
the proposed fiscal framework, the macroeconomic projections and the assumptions undermining the fiscal frame work to the Standing Committee on Finance. This is done to comply with the Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act, 2009. The committee will continue to play its oversight role on the executive. The Standing Committee on Finance, having considered the 2019 MTBPS for the revised and fiscal framework reports as follows:
The Minister briefed the Committees of Finance and Appropriations of National Assembly and NCOP on 31 October 2019. Amongst other issues that he raised which we have also welcomed, are the measures aimed at improving efficiency and curb fiscal leakages, through different measures that he is going to introduce and also the issue of merging and consolidating entities and regulatory agencies.
The other challenge that he has raised is the problem of medico legal claims, where there is a huge legal claim in the Department of Health especially in Gauteng and the Eastern Cape. These are the lawyers who have been all
along targeting the Road Accident Fund, but now they are targeting the Department of Finance. In so doing, we have to accelerate the implementation of the Road Accident Benefit Scheme Act. The Minister also spoke about the cost saving measures to improve efficiency and also tabling the Public Procurement Bill to improve procurement regulatory framework.
The committees received the post budget input from the Parliamentary Budget Office and the Financial and Fiscal Commission. Subsequent to that, we held public hearings on O6 November 2019. The committee received many written and oral submissions. Hon Chair, there are challenges with regards to the economy. The global economic growth outlook has deteriorated in both developed and developing countries. The trade tension between China and the United States, US, has serious impact on the global economy. The economic growth has been revised downwards and Growth Democratic Product, GDP, per capita is likely to decline in real terms, exacerbating existing levels of poverty and inequality.
The current account deficit is expected to remain at 3,5% of GDP over the next three years, given low investment and import growth. We also looked at the issue of inflation outlook. The high electricity tariff, high meat and grain prices will contribute to an increase in inflation. Credit downgrades remain a factor to observe and state implications on sovereign debt ratings, higher debt premiums and Rand depreciation, investor flight are some of the issues that are going to contribute to the challenges that we have economically.
The revenue outlook has deteriorated with lower than expected corporate tax collections. It is anticipated that the 2020 Budget will introduce various tax measures in the back of unemployment levels. This might put pressure on the households on personal income tax. We welcome the resources allocated to SA Revenue Service, Sars, to increase its capacity to collect revenue. However, there are serious challenges when it comes to collecting of tax hon Chair. The problem, amongst others is under declaration by companies, both local and multinationals. Companies, local and multinationals conceal income or profit figures and overstate their
expenses with the intention of not paying what is due. We also have a problem of illicit financial flows, base erosion and profit shifting. Lots of billions leave this country; there are figures if you look at the Global Financial Integrity Report. It gives the amount of how much leaves South Africa.
The problem of illegal tobacco and cigarettes trade is serious. What is a problem hon Minister of Police is that, the culprits who are involved in the illicit tobacco trading are known. The factories and warehouses where these activities are taking place are known. There must be law enforcement in this regard. Low revenues, high debt service costs and bailouts to State- Owned Enterprises, SOEs, pose challenges in addressing a widening budget deficit. A continuous cash injection to assist ailing SOEs is crowding out spending categories and aggregates fiscal risk
Debt is increasing rapidly and is unlikely to stabilise in the immediate term. The rising debt service displaces social and economic spending and this will lead to negative impact on the National Development Plan, NDP,
targets. Therefore, we request that Cabinet should put more measures to stabilise the debt to GDP ratio. Hon Minister, we believe that we should not reach a stage where we are in a debt trap and will have to go to the Bretton Woods Institutions. Once we go to the Bretton Woods Institutions, we must forget about our sovereignty. They will come and take over Treasury, apply structural adjustment, cut spending on social programmes and the country will be in upheaval. This is a matter that has to be attended to.
Hon Chair, last but no least is the issue of the Wage Bill versus bloated service. We want this matter to be debated because, is the problem the Wage Bill or the bloated public service. In 1995 there were 1 269 000 public servants, serving a population of 38 631 000. In 2019, 1 515 598 public servants serving a population of 58,7 million, which is an increase of 300 000 or so.
What is the ratio of public servant to the population? There is a world standard as to, if a country has to have a particular size of a public service, it must be in proportion to its population. The problem is the salaries
of the senior and middle management, which is very high. This is due to higher than inflation salary increases, pay progression and Occupation Specific Dispensation, OSD. Hon Speaker, there has to be clarity as to what size and shape of public service do we want. How many managers do we want and unions are up in arms about this matter. However, we have to answer the 4R's. Do we want to rationalise, restructure, retrench or right size? What is the scientific instrument that we are going to employ in this regard, when we talk about the issue of the Wage Bill visa vie the bloated public service?
We are of course worried because the Wage Bill stands at R630 billion 700 million and something has to be done. Therefore, we are satisfied about what the Minister has presented hon Chair. The committee recommends to the House to adopt the Revised Fiscal Framework as tabled by the Minister of Finance. Thank you.
Chairperson, when Minister Tito Mboweni delivered his Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS, last month, South Africa saw perhaps really for the first time just how badly things have gone
wrong. I commend the Minister for being honest about the state of our public finances for he did not hide or varnish the truth. But, ultimately his mini Budget must be judged on whether it achieved its main purpose.
The Minister's primary task, really his only job, was to present a credible plan to stabilise the national debt. The fact is that by any objective measure, he did not achieve that. The Minister did not present a plan to stabilise debt at all. His mini Budget sees the deficit blowing out to 6,5% this year and next, and national debt ballooning to over 71% of GDP in three years time.
By that time we would have borrowed another nearly R1,5 trillion and we would be spending R300 billion a year just on interest. So, the view that this mini Budget was simply inadequate was confirmed by 30-basis point spike in bond yields in the days following, and by Moody's decision to place us on, "Negative watch", for downgrade.
To be fair to the Minister, he did identify more than R50 billion in spending cuts. The point is that despite
these cuts, overall expenditure is still going up, and there's a simple explanation for that. That is because the spending cuts are more than offset by huge bailouts to zombie state owned entities, SOEs.
Every Budget always involves direct trade-offs. We understand that, but we believe that the 2019 Revised Fiscal Framework represents a fundamentally wrong and unethical set of trade-offs. The real story of this Budget is that basic services on which the poor critically rely everyday are being cut - and cut deeply - because for this government that is the path of least resistance.
It is easier to cut basic services to the poor than it is for the ANC to take on public sector unions. And, that is the truth! [Interjections.] Today, national Union of Metalworkers of South Africa, Numsa, and the SA Cabin Crew Association, SACCA, tell us that they will, "Shut down SAA", if planned job cuts go ahead.
May I just say to them parenthetically: Please go ahead! And thank you very very much! [Applause.] We've been
calling for SA Airways to be shut down for years. If you're volunteering to do it for us, maybe we should all go and join you on a picket line on Friday!
If this strike goes ahead though, it will be a key test for the government. Will they cave again to union pressure and give another bailout; or will they stand firm in doing what is right and fair for the whole country?
We are all pledged. Every member of this House is pledged in theory to creating a fairer society. For the DA, creating a fairer society is one of the fundamental values that underpin our approach to government.
So, how do we square the ANC's commitment to a fair society with the trade off choices made in this mini Budget? Is it fair to cut R50 million from cervical cancer tests for Grade 5 school girls to protect the bloated public service?
Is it fair to cut R40 million dedicated for eradicating pit latrines in schools to protect 15 000 supernumerary
Eskom employees? Is it fair to ask millions of South Africans to pay higher electricity prices, higher VAT and higher fuel prices to pay for the effects of years of mismanagement and cadre deployment in the state?
Is it fair to ask the domestic worker who can only dream of air travel to bailout to SA Airways? Is it fair to make the unemployed mother pay for the free higher education of the middle class while that mother cannot afford to send her own child to crche?
Is it fair that police stations do not have rape evidence collection kits, as Mr Whitfield has so boldly exposed, but 29 000 millionaire managers in the public service have got salary increases of 10% a year for a decade? That is not fair!
In fact, my colleague, Mr Macpherson told me this morning of a public servant in the National Empowerment Fund who earned R6 million this year. [Interjections.] These are the real trade-offs this government has chosen to make, and they are simply ethically indefensible. They are not
only unfair and wrong, but they are also financially unsustainable.
In recent days, we have heard the argument that the solution is to borrow even more in the vain hope that spending more will boost growth. Even the Parliamentary Budget Office, PBO, which should be giving us MPs responsible and credible advice on the Budget, has shamefully propagated this argument.
This is a ludicrous argument. Every rand we borrow requires more rands in future to pay off interest. That's fine when national debt is low, but those days are long gone in South Africa.
The fact is that we are now spending more on interest than we spend on education and healthcare. We are spending triple on interest than we spend on policing. We are using your credit card to pay off our overdraft, and then we are going to Capitec to borrow more money to buy groceries. This is the path of certain economic destruction, and we must not go down it any further.
I'm pleased that everyone in the finance committee agrees with this. I really associate myself and congratulate the chairperson on the fine speech that he has just given. I agree 100% with his comments around debt unsustainability and the public service.
We need big, bold decisions to save our essential public services from collapsing under the weight of our public debt. That is why the DA has proposed a credible plan to cut Rl68 billion from the public wage bill by focusing cuts on the 29 000 millionaire managers in the civil service - the people that earn R6 million per year - while protecting the true heroes of the civil service: Nurses, teachers, doctors, social workers, police officers and other front line delivery staff. [Applause.]
We have proposed a three-year wage freeze for all millionaire managers and a head count reduction of 9 200 non-front-line staff. If we did this, these savings would rein in the deficit, bring down debt and free up funds that would otherwise have been spend on interest, for spending on investment in critical infrastructure or social protection.
This is the only credible plan on the table that delivers fairness, and we hope the Minister will consider it seriously. I assure him that he will have the support of this whole House if he does so. Thank you. [Applause.]
House Chair, the EFF emphatically reject the Revised Fiscal Framework introduced by the Minister of Finance during the Medium- Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS. The fundamental reason is that as part of the MTBPS, the Minister announced the neoliberal, orthodox and outrightly reactionary economic recovery strategy as the current economic plan for South Africa.
When the Minister of Finance was responding to parliamentary questions, he said that National Treasury received more than 800 inputs into the neoliberal drivel he calls an economic recovery plan. The Minister further said that the only submissions the National Treasury will accept are those that are consistent with the essence of the neoliberalism of the perspective.
It is on that basis that the EFF chose not to partake in legitimating what we believe to be the most dangerous,
so-called recovery plans, representing nauseating levels of capitalist greed and gluttony.
The white capitalist establishment in South Africa are forming an alliance to devour and finish off the little economic control that the state has in South Africa.
Part of that neoliberal and reactionary plan includes the gradual privatisation of Eskom.
Part of that neoliberal and reactionary plan includes the Privatisation of water provision.
Part of that neoliberal and reactionary plan includes Privatisation of irrigation services.
Part of that neoliberal and reactionary plan does not say anything about the fourth industrial revolution, and how such will change the nature, content and form of work. Part of that neoliberal and reactionary plan will not do anything to break the communications duopoly, where only two major companies are dominant.
We, as the EFF, stand opposed to neoliberalism and will never associate with the neoliberal drivel which will only serve to weaken and destabilise the state.
Now, we have decided to forge ahead with the real economic transformation agenda that has been embraced by all progressive forces in all political parties.
The EFF has reintroduced the South African Reserve Bank Amendment Bill, which will remove all private shareholders from the private Bank. The EFF calls on members of the public to make inputs into the Bill, so that South Africa joins more than 90% of central banks in the world that are publicly owned.
The EFF will also table a comprehensive State Bank Bill, which will culminate in the creation of a state-owned bank. The EFF will table a Sovereign Wealth Fund Bill, which will lead to the creation of a sovereign wealth fund. The EFF will re-introduce the Insourcing of Government Workers Bill, so that we begin to build state capacity and not rely on external consultants. [Applause.]
We are doing all of this because we have come to the correct conclusion that the ANC is dismally failing to manage and give direction to the economy. This is evidenced by rising poverty levels, crisis levels of unemployment, and a huge debt to GDP ratio. The Ministry of Finance is a true disciple of neoliberalism and they will worsen South Africa
The ruling party is full of cowards who are unable to caution their deployees when he exceptionally defies the resolution and act like a paragon of economic correctness. The EFF is not a party of cowards. We stand to categorically, emphatically and decisively reject the capitalist pamphlet that was presented here as MTBPS. Down with neoliberalism and its disciples in the National Treasury, down! [Applause.]
Hon Chairperson, I had hoped that the Minister would bring along his Aloe Ferox plant today to this sitting. In fact, I would go as far as to suggest that it finds a permanent home in this House, just below the podium of the Speaker. My suggestion is made in good faith and in the spirit of consistency and continuity. It
must serve as a reminder to all hon members in this House that the collective task at hand is to ensure that we hold government to account act and compel it to decisively to recover our economy.
Much like the medicinal properties of the Aloe Ferox plant, medicine can only work when the body it serves changes unhealthy habits and focuses on strengthening the immune system.
I believe, in this instance, that Treasury and the Department of Finance is our government's immune system. By remaining committed to the plan and strategy - which is to be steadfast in its determination, to act decisively, to improve co-ordination, to uphold the rule of law and to stay consistent in implementing the recommendations on the fiscal framework and revenue proposals - only then will we be able to navigate through this growth drought.
If our immune system and structures are fully geared towards implementation, this is what we can achieve, hon Minister. Firstly, we can achieve a reduction of the
public sector wage bill. Secondly, we can see through the successful sale of government assets. Thirdly, we can restructure and not just recycle the rot within our state-owned entities. Finally, we can successfully manage to reduce our debt-to-GDP ratio.
It is therefore unfortunate that, at times, the department has ignored recommendations, forecasts and advice from various stakeholders. Let us not close our ears because our eyes don't agree with what we are reading.
Furthermore, much has been said in this House about the reduction of the ballooning public sector wage bill. However, government must also be prepared to absorb the adverse effects that zero increases will have on morale within the public sector. The poorest and most vulnerable of our people will once again have to experience a lack of service delivery as most frontline services will be affected.
Hon Minister, we must always be mindful that the actions we take on a macro level has effects which trickles down
and hurts the masses of our people who are poorest and this must be avoided. The IFP supports this report because we believe that our country and our economy has reached a point whereby the solutions that have been written, adopted and widely accepted by all, must now - I repeat - must now be implemented. The time has come ...
IsiZulu:
... lakhona wonke lamankentshane akhinyabeza umbuso wethu, nakhwabanisayo, kufanele ukuba sibhekane nawo. Isikhathi sokuqhaqhazela siphelile, injobo ayilingane umntsintsila. Ngiyabonga.
House Chair, to quote the Minister, our problem is simple, "we are spending more than we earn". South Africa is moving closer to reaching the fiscal cliff and we are in a dire situation. Our civil service remuneration, social assistance expenditure and the interest on government debt as a percentage of government tax revenue, has increased from 55%, 10 years ago, to more than 72% in 2019.
The government wage bill must be addressed; but how? Contain all inclusive government remuneration adjustments to the rate of inflation. In 2018-19, the average wage increase for officials was 6,8% - 2,2% higher than inflation.
In the private sector, the average annual salary is R250 000 and in the public sector it is more than R400 000. The other big problem is the looted, mismanaged state-owned entities, requiring multibillion rand bailout all the time.
Afrikaans:
Die enigste manier om die fiskus te red is om hierdie staatsuitgawes te beperk en staatskuld uit te wis, en dan staatsinkomste te verhoog.
Maar die probleem is, hoe doen ons dit? Ons kan dit slegs doen as die politieke wil daar is om die werklike besluite te neem om die uitgawes te beperk, en om die inkomste te verhoog.
Die enigste manier om ons inkomste te verhoog is om 'n gunstige omgewing te skep vir die vrye mark. Maar alles wat die ANC doen is tot die teendeel. Alles wat die ANC doen maak dit moeiliker om besigheid te doen in Suid- Afrika, en maak dit moeiliker om werk te skep. Op die ou einde van die dag verloor ons belastinginkomste.
English:
Who dictates to government what to do and what not to do? It is the alliance partners that are telling the government not to do what is necessary to contain the public service wage bill. It is your alliance partners who are preventing you from doing what is necessary and what I am sure the Minister wants to do with most of the state-owned entities. We are going to get closer to the fiscal cliff and face the fiscal cliff if you keep on listening to the alliance partners.
The failed ideology of the ANC is also to blame. We will have to wake up and really do what is necessary to save the economy. We need economic growth. But to get economic growth, we need the private sector. We need free market principles and we need to contain costs.
The cost containment measures announced by the Minister are a drop in the ocean and it is too late. It is because of the ruling party, who for many years just assumed that there will be money left in the fiscus. They just assumed that they can buy expensive cars. It is unfortunate that the hon Jackson Mthembu is not here, per usual he is not here, but in 1997 he said:
"I am a leader in my community, why is it wrong for me to buy a BMW with my provincial department's money of R2,3 million".
For 25 years, that attitude has cost this country greatly. It's that attitude of just spending the people's money and not doing what is necessary that has gotten us into this problem. I thank you. [Applause.]
Hon House Chair, the NFP notes the report of the Standing Committee on Finance tabled here today. Allow me to commence by expressing our concern that every year Minister, we get a growth forecast which is exaggerated and way off target creating expectations that we are not able to achieve.
The deteriorating picture of low economic growth, failure to achieve targets, increase in the debt and budget deficit is also a matter of concern. Now, it is not only the interest that we are paying, but if you look at the jump in the last two or three years, and what is expected to be by 2022-23, it clearly means that your interest is going to rise by R150 billion, which is ridiculously enormous, which I don't think we can sustain in this country.
As the NFP, we repeatedly have been drawing the attention of this House to the dangers of reaching a fiscal cliff. And every time a Minister or Deputy Minister came here, they gave us the assurance that there is no problem and they started comparing us to other countries. When you came in Minister you gave us this bleak picture and we appreciate the fact that you gave us a true account of what the status is in the country.
Now the question is, we have heard that R360 billion is going to compensation to employees. We are talking about another R240 billion which we estimate that it's lost and which nobody wants to do anything about it because you
are not getting value for money. To add to that, at the moment, we were going to run about R200 billion of interest shortly.
So what does that tell you Minister? Almost R1,1 trillion of your money is going to anything other than delivering services to the people on the ground. So tell me how you are going to be able to achieve economic growth in South Africa, create jobs, and boost this economy, if so much of your resources are going to anything else but delivering services to the people on the ground. So the question that arises is; what are you going to do about it?
Now you are sitting with a situation, you have addressed the issue of South African Airways and you have identified the challenges but there you have the union which is saying that we are not going to accept it, and exactly the same thing is happening with Eskom.
So don't you think that we are in a no-win situation? We are actually in a crisis. And if we are going to continue with the rate that we are continuing, then you can see
the destruction of this country in a very short space of time. Unless we change direction and get the role players to come together and sit at the table and look at what is in the best interest of the country and the people.
If you take South African Airways, you Minister said how much we pay for a bottle of water. The NFP - well - notes the reports. [Time expired.] [Laughter.]
Thank you, House Chair. Hon members ...
Sepedi:
... le badudi ba Afrika-Borwa kamoka kua gae, thobela.
English:
The ANC is committed to managing the SA economy in such a way that it promotes employment for inclusive growth. This is fundamental necessary if South Africa is effectively to overcome the structural economic inequalities inherited from South Africa's colonial an apartheid past. South African society is underpinned by a colonial structural economy and racial capitalism. Without effective structural intervention, the system
will continue to reproduce racialise poverty and inequality.
The ANC seeks to unite all South Africans, black and white behind the vision of radical economic transformation as a prosperous and inclusive economy is in the best interest of the nation as a whole. Since the end of apartheid, South Africa has made significance progress in alleviating the plight of the poor through social standing, creation of employment, access to education, housing, clean water, electricity and healthcare.
The 1996 Constitution remind the state to see to the welfare of its citizens. Chapter 2 of the Constitution of South Africa requires social provision to correspond with the spirit of democratic society. It is established in section 27 (1) that every citizen has the right to healthcare, food, water and social security. In terms of boosting economic participation government social grants have improved ... [Interjections.] ...
IsiZulu:
USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk B G Boroto): Yehlisani! Qhubeka Ma. Yehlisani umsindo!
ILUNGU ELIHLONIPHEKILE ELINGAZIWA: Isikhathi siyahamba.
Sihambiswa nguwe.
English:
In terms of boosting economic participation, government social grants have improved the income of those at the bottom of income distribution by more that tenfold. The impact of these transfers in raising the income of the poor in South Africa is far larger than in other middle income countries. Child support grants, old age pension and disability grant does an effective job of enhancing the income of the poor. Without ... [Inaudible.] ... social grants, the level of poverty would be worse.
Social grants are essential for lowering economic ... [Inaudible.] ... for the most vulnerable in society. The ANC government is not focussing on social grants as an ultimate solution to address challenges of high unemployment and inequality in our country only.
President Ramaphosa highlighted that the ANC government will accelerate measures to create employment for the youth. Inline with the President's commitment to free the youth and all South Africans from poverty, education continues to receive increases from the budget allocations.
The ANC government believes that education is an instrument to breakdown the stubborn walls of poverty in our country. The ANC government is working hard to ensure that South Africans have access to education from early childhood. The success of South Africa's education as an instrument to reduce poverty and unemployment is boosted by the ANC's resolution to phase- in free Higher Education and Training to first year students from households. The ANC government has always prioritised health and has worked hard to improve access to health facilities and conditions of public facilities. Access to health is a human right enshrined in our Constitution. The ANC government is respected globally when it comes to fighting human immunodeficiency virus, HIV, and acquired immunodeficiency syndrome, AIDS.
As our President announced during the state of the nation address, we are taking this battle a step further to eliminate HIV/AIDS in our midst. This is why our government is pushing for the implementation of the National Health Insurance, NHI. However, the country still needs to ensure that revenue collection responds to additional spending pressures. The government is concerned about the proportion of the fiscus spent on servicing the debt. The state has made various adjustments to tax policy measures in a bid to boost the revenue. The citizens of South Africa entrusted us with a mandate to lead and turn their lives for the better and we must do this by running as others walk, as said by Julius Nyerere.
The President of the ANC and the Republic called on all of us to commit to this new dawn by quoting the legendary Hugh Masekela, Thuma Mina, send me. Then, let us all go the community and serve the people to our beloved South Africa.
IsiZulu:
Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.]
Sepedi:
Ke a leboga.
Sepedi:
Thobela ...
English:
Had the President of our country attended this sitting and I wish he had, I would have risen to say to him; Mr President, I thank you but blame you. I thank you for having given us this Minister of Finance who has risen to acknowledge momentous challenges that our country faces, but I blame you for those problems faced by our people. I would have said to him that unemployment will rise as state-owned entities kick out our people. I would have said to him that workers here ... [Inaudible.] ... state will be kicked out. I would have said to him that workers, for example, at the South African Airways, SAA, and elsewhere will loose their jobs from this week.
I would have said to him that you promised the people of South Africa that there will be free quality education, which is not the case because, for example, more than a
million children go into grade 1 but only 500 000 write matric. There is no proper health system, no electricity, etc. I would have said to him that, Mr President, we say that bureaucracy is big and the Ministry and your party here, has risen to say, yes, this is correct. However, you are the problem, Mr President, because you have put into place an extensive, extremely big and the biggest executive in our country. That is a follow up to what Mr Zuma has done.
Under, Mandela, under Thabo Mbeki, we had less than 30 Ministers but we now have four rugby teams that form the executive. I here speak of the Ministers and the Deputy Ministers who get more than R2,5 million per year and we are talking about more than R4 billion. When we talk about the creation of jobs etc, we can't, because all these monies that is exactly where it is going. We have amongst others some of the Ministers who buy cars for more than R1 million. We can mention their names. You, Mr President, are going on to keep these people here. Some of the Deputy Ministers we don't even know them. These are the people who have lots of money, who have many houses in Pretoria and in Cape Town, lots of expensive
furniture ... [Time expired.] ... many body guard and we are not getting anywhere. Mr President, I blame you. We can't go on like that.
Madam Chair and hon members, I rise as usual to thank the members of the House for the work that they have done in the committee and for the report which has been submitted here by the Chair of the committee. I thank you very much for all the proposals and suggestions you have made which indeed if they are internally consistent with what we are trying to do, we will take them into account.
In this regard, the debate about the Wage Bill is a serious one and we must handle it in a manner that does not seek to discourage civil servants because there are too many hard working civil servants. We must show our appreciation to them because it is these hard working South Africans who are going to take us forward. We must be careful as the Chair of the committee was saying not to conflate the size of the Wage Bill with the number of civil servants. The two are not the same and we must be careful about how we handle that matter.
I indicated where the problem about Wage Bill started. I do not want to repeat it here in case I get into trouble again. The fact of the matter is that we have some serious conversations to be had very soon going forward in order to resolve this problem.
The second issue is about the state-owned enterprises and I do not want us as well to confuse an ideological posture with what is a difficult financial situation. Indeed I am tempted to quote August Bebel, the German social democrat who said:
When the enemies of the working class clap hands when you speak, you must stop to reconsider what you have just said.
So, I am afraid that I may say something which the DA might just about agree with. So I will be very careful on how I go about articulating the issues around the state- owned enterprises. You know, it seems like what I say gets recooked and uncooked and presented in a wrong way. Nevertheless we should continue our work on the
structural changes which are required in the state-owned enterprises.
I appreciate the EFF's view on the neoliberal drivel which I do not quite understand what it means but nevertheless thank you for that. I hope to debate the matter with you but we have to proceed with our programmes of structural reforms. If we do not focus on structural reforms we would not be able to get the economy going in the direction that it should. Indeed I welcome the contribution to the drivel.
The final point I wanted to make colleagues is that in the manner in which we articulate certain things here, we also have to bear in mind that there is audience outside. We should be seen to be working together in resolving the country's problems. Last week, Standard and Poors was here and having a conversation with us because they are looking into our rating again and so was an IMF article for consultation machinery. So, the way we articulate certain, the way we agree or disagree has a bearing on what people think about us as a country. We therefore have to be very careful. In short Madam Chair, I came to
the podium to thank members for their contributions which I very much appreciate. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Hon House
Chairperson, I move that the report be adopted.
Question Put
Debate concluded.
Motion agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).
Report accordingly adopted.
Hon Chairperson, I just want the Minister to know that he has got support from the enemies of the working class.
Hon member, thank you, I do not even hear what you are saying. It is off the record.
Hon House Chairperson, on a point of order: I just like the House to know that that hon member was with the Springboks at that time with Parliament. [Laughter.]
Hon Chairperson, I do not know why the DA is getting so excited because I did not refer to you. [Interjections.]