House Chair, Eskom has now resolved to switch off the lights for municipalities that did not
pay their debts, even after there were arrangements made previously. Are you in support of Eskom terminating their services to defaulting municipalities? And secondly, what impact will this have on the functioning of municipalities and its citizens? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: House Chair, I'm not in support of citizens being deprived of electricity, especially if they pay for it. So, I'm not in support of it. And the impact, obviously, will be dire during December if people don't have electricity.
So, what we can do, I don't know, Minister of Finance and all of us, I don't know because we have been assisting municipalities to make arrangements with Eskom to pay their debt slowly but some of them still even default even on that arrangement.
But we cannot also punish paying citizens for the fault of municipalities. So, we have to find a way of dealing with it. Thank you.
Question 301:
Thank
you very much, House Chair. The response to that question
... Due to the nature of the question, what we did was to divide the response into three. I will start with the first part which takes one section, namely how far is the Public Service from reflecting the stated intention of government to build a professional, meritocratic and reskilled Public Service?
The answer to that part is as follows. The Department of Public Service and Administration has a Human Resource Development Strategic Framework which is a blueprint for capacity-building and the development of public servants to enable them to competitively or competently undertake their responsibilities in line with the mandate and priorities of government. The intent of this framework is to build an efficient, effective, professional and developmentally-orientated Public Service through the establishment of policies, structures and operational processes for capable and high- performing employees.
As part of continuous improvement in implementing the framework, there has been a review to align ... So the strategy has been reviewed to align it to the visions of government's macro-developmental policies, namely the National Qualifications Framework Act ... 2008, the New Growth Path 2010, the National Development ... 2011 and the national Human Resource Development Strategy for South Africa ... towards 2030. These are all the key policies that have been developed over time and according to which human resource development has been reviewed.
Finally, an in-depth evaluation report of the implementation of human resource development in the Public Service between 2009 and 2014 ... that in the evaluation is available.
The second part of the question deals with organisational culture, ethics and the Public Service. Our response to that section is as follows. The Public Service Regulations 2016 brought about the following reforms as far as ethics and integrity management is concerned. There are quite a host of those. One, employees are prohibited from conducting business with organs of state;
two, employees are prohibited from accepting bribes and gratifications, and the context under which gifts can be accepted is clearly stated; three, employees are required to report unethical conduct, corruption and noncompliance to the Public Service Act 1994 and the Public Service Regulations 2016; four, the performance of other remunerative work was standardised; five, ethics infrastructure was introduced to specific anticorruption management functions, allocated to the head of department, HOD, including whistle-blowing; and six, from April 2014 all senior management service, SMS, members were required to disclose their financial interests, but with the extension of categories ... after April 2018 disclosures were required from middle management service, MMS, members, professionals on occupational specific dispensation, OSD, salary levels 11 and 12, supply chain management personnel, finance personnel, the ethics office and Public Service Commission, PSC, officials working in financial disclosures.
Therefore, there has been an extension to other categories below SMS level. An intention is to extend disclosures to all employees in the Public Service. An
electronic system, eDisclosure, was introduced in August 2016 to improve on compliance with financial disclosure regulations. All designated employees are required to use the eDisclosure system to submit their financial disclosure forms.
Thank you very much, hon Minister.
There's a third section to the question. I need your guidance, Chair.
Okay, hon Minister. With the discretion that I have, you still have a minute but you need to wrap it up please.
Thank
you very much. The third section talks about roots of participatory democracy at all levels and spheres through building partnerships with the civil service. We can talk about the Public Service Charter. That is one lever for participatory democracy. There are also the Batho Pele
principles as they apply, and further to that there is the African Peer Review Mechanism, APRM, which encourages participation at all levels, particularly within civil society. These are all the mechanisms that we wanted to talk about.
Thank you, hon Chair. Hon Minister, professionalising the Public Service requires the continuous training and reskilling of public servants to new ways of doing things, including technological advancement.
What additional measures will the department implement to reskill public servants in this age of the Fourth Industrial Revolution?
The
Public Service is reliant on the National School of Government, NSG, for all programmes on training, including the ones that you are referring to on the Fourth Industrial Revolution. Over and above the NSG, we rely on different executive authorities, EAs, and their
departments to keep apace with the needs of each department and generally of the Public Service.
So there is ongoing training and in-service training programmes that take place within the Public Service but there are ones that are prescribed which are specific and that are ongoing, and each year a number of public servants are required to go through those programmes in the NSG, and it is working. Thank you.
Thank you, Chair. Hon Chair, just two days ago the PSC released its latest Pulse of the Public Service report. The report highlights that national and provincial departments still owe our job- creating businesses billions in unpaid invoices. The report also shows that public servants routinely ignore court rulings without anyone having been fired. The fundamental cause of this is that we have the wrong people in the Public Service because politicians have the power to appoint public servants, to dismiss officials and to discipline them.
If we are serious about building a professional and meritocratic Public Service, we must give these powers to the PSC. My question to the Minister is, will you support the DA's pending legislation to abolish cadre deployment and empower the PSC to handle senior appointments, dismissals and discipline in the Public Service?
Well,
maybe I should respond by asking you another question that says the following. Will the DA support the policy of government as determined and as being rolled out throughout the Public Service? My guess is that you will and you are, and we have to appreciate your co-operation in this regard.
However, if you are talking about the need for improvement, yes, and I think we are working very well with you in the portfolio committee to make sure we make progress in terms of those improvements. I haven't heard any contradiction from whatever views that you have raised since I got appointed. Therefore, I don't think we in this House must attempt to further politicise what we need to do in the Public Service. I think we must reduce
that, and co-operate and work together so that we promote professionalism within the Public Service. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Thank you Chairperson. Minister, section 195 of the Constitution enjoins the Public Service to be broadly representative of the South African people and that those previously excluded from employment and personnel management practices be included.
Do you think the systematic exclusion of black executives from the management of state-owned enterprises, SOEs, is in sync with the Constitution?
Let me
start by indicating that we are responsible for the Public Service in terms of the Public Service Act and the Public service Management Act. The category of workers that you are talking about is not part of our responsibility. However, as we move on in terms of implementing the Public service Management Act we will be applying norms and standards as required by the Public service Management Act.
Therefore, I am not in a position - unless I want to mislead you - to answer directly to that particular question. However, I would see it as falling within ... and taking the form that all of us want to take ... that we don't want ... we just want public servants to be ethical. We want them to be professional. We want less unnecessary interference from EAs and so on. That is the line broadly, even in SOEs, even though we don't necessarily apply the Public Service Act to those as yet.
Thank you, hon Minister. Hon M D Hlengwa?
Hon House Chair, my apologies. I will be taking the question. My gadget still does not seem to be working since yesterday.
Minister, in order to build the said vision of a public sector truly reflective of the will of the people, corruption, irregular and wasteful expenditure needs to be addressed. I would like to know whether your department has engaged other departments that have been found to irregularly spend and what steps have been taken
to prosecute and recover irregular and wasteful expenditure? If not, why? If so, what are the relevant details?
Let me
start by saying that earlier on my colleague, Minister Nkosazana Dlamini- Zuma, indicated the new development in relation to the powers of the Auditor-General, AG, where the AG is now empowered to, on his own, decide on measures in relation to irregular and fruitless expenditure and other related expenditures. He is empowered to issue a certificate to the accounting officer relevant ... a certificate of liability in terms of which the relevant accounting officer can be made solely liable for whatever fruitless or irregular expenditure ... That's measure number one. All of us support that and we think it's taking the right direction in terms of, not only enjoining accounting officers to do their work and do it perfectly, but also in terms of consequence.
Apart of that, EAs, service supervisors, to their HODs, and directors- general, DGs, ... and one of the things
that all of us as Ministers have to do is to minister, meaning that we have a duty to ensure that whatever accountability measures we implement ... and follow up on those measures. There are many in all the departments, and in turn HODs and DGs have similar responsibilities done as per deployment of powers to perform particular tasks.
Question 306:
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you very much. The prerogative of intervening in a municipality lies with the province. The province can intervene and the procedure is clear; the executive council must take are solution to intervene, they can intervene, for instance, under section 154 but usually they intervene under section 139, when the municipality fails in its responsibility, whether in governance, or financial and service delivery and they can intervene by issuing out directives or taking over administration under 139(b) or by dissolving the municipality under section 139(c), or by taking the appropriate steps to ensure that the budget or revenue measures are improved under section 139(4), or by placing
a recovery plan and possible dissolution of municipal council under section 139(5).
The National Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs have no locus standi in intervening. However, what is required under section 139(b) is that when the province has taken the decision to intervene there must get concurrence with the national Department of Co- operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, but if it is under section 139(5) we just get informed we don't have to concur. So, the question is, whether I have any intention of intervening? I cannot intervene. Thank you.
Thank you, Chair. I want to differ with the Minister on one aspect. That is, the province does not intervene or it fails in its subsection 4 and 5 intervention in terms of 139(7), the national government has a responsibility to intervene in the province and that is the fair and safe mechanism that are system of intergovernmental relations has in terms of the Constitution. So, the national government does have a role to play, Minister.
Of course, it is not suggested that national government place a province under administration every time there is a problem in the municipality, but surely there is a role to play actively to address these things. Minister, the DA is in possession of an email sent by the deputy manager of corporate support services of the Mogalakwena Local Municipality last year November. The email invites general workers, who had already been appointed to come and submit their curriculum vitae, CV. Which suggest that this is after the fact of regularising of an irregularity. We also have sources who give us information to this effect.
My question is, when the Minister is confronted with evidence of this nature of irregularities in the municipality what does she do? And, will she take up this issue of Mogalakwena Local Municipality? I do have a copy of the email for her perusal. Thank you very much, Chair.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you very much. I know that the Member of the Executive Council, MEC, and the province are dealing with the matter. We will just await their conclusion, but
I know that they are dealing with the matter. Not because of the email but because of many other things. They are dealing with the matter of Mogalakwena Local Municipality ...
AN HON MEMBER: ... what do you do?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: ... we are waiting for them to conclude their process but they are dealing with it. We just need to wait for that. In terms of the national intervening, yes, we have been intervening. In the North West we intervened. However, it does not mean that as you say it yourself that if there is one municipality that has a problem then the province has to be under administration, no, it won't happen like that. However, Mokgalakoena is being dealt with, just wait a week or so, it is being dealt with you will see. Thank you.
Thank you very much, Chair. Minister, Municipal Public Accounts Committee, Mpac have dismally faille to hold the executives to account. Do you not think that Municipal Public Accounts Committee in
municipalities are swallowed in the politics of patronage? Do you not think that Municipal Public Accounts Committee could maximise their performance in municipalities in the same way in which the Select Committee on Public Accounts delivers its mandate? How would you ensure that the Municipal Public Accounts Committee, fulfil their constitutional mandate in terms of section 79 of the Municipal Structures Act? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: I just wish that we could listen because earlier I did say that Treasury and Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, have worked on a guide and a toolkit and are training councillors on how to deal with their responsibilities if they are in the Municipal Public Accounts Committee. We are doing something about it together with Treasury and I said it earlier but it was a different question. Okay. Thank you.
Thank you, House Chair. With the exception of Lepelle- Nkumpi Local Municipality, most municipalities in Limpopo are dangerously dysfunctional.
The province is aware of this and they are failing to intervene proactively. Are you aware, Minister, that in Thabazimbi Municipality eight ANC councillors individually owe the municipality up to R78 000 each for the past two years? This is despite schedule 1 of the Municipal Systems Act being clear that a councillor should not be in arrears for more than three months. How will the department address the issue in this municipality?
Point of order, Chair. My question was not based on whether the councillors are trained or not. It was based on the Municipal Public Accounts Committees mandate in terms of section 79 of the Municipal Systems Act ...
... okay, okay, hon member.
Perhaps the Minister could not get me on that one. So, in that sense I am not answered, Chair.
Hon member ... can I deal with it. Hon member, the Minister has responded to the question. If the hon member is not happy with the answer, we still have your supplementary questions you will deal with that at that stage. However, for now the Minister has answered the question to the best of her ability so far. Thank you very much.
Chairperson, just a point of order. I think the member is clarifying the Minister that she misunderstood the question. Don't protect her, Chairperson, just check with her if she misunderstood the question or not so that we can get a proper answer. That is all.
I have ruled on that, hon member. Thank you.
Thank you, Sir. I wonder if our member could just restate her question. I think she's probably been ... [Inaudible.] ...
... can I take advice on that? For now ... hon Minister, would you like to respond again?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: No, I am responding to Opperman. Didn't she ask a question?
Yes, yes, there was a question. She can ask the question again ... hon Opperman.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: ... she wants ... I know what she asked, but if she has to ask again it is fine.
Hon Opperman
...
... Chairperson, are you asking the Minister if she ant to respond to the EFF question, please?
Hon Mkhaliphi
...
... no, she want to respond to us.
Hon Mkhaliphi!
Chairperson!
Hon Mkhaliphi, just hold. Okay, just hold.
Okay.
You should realise that hon Ceza was posing a question when it was hon Opperman's time to pose a question, alright?
Oh, okay. So, you were referring to this member, not our member?
Not ...
[Interjections.] ...
... I am not talking to you, I am talking to the Chairperson ...
... hon Mkhaliphi, yes.
Oh, okay ...
... can we restart the process ... I will deal with that ...
... please, please, Chairperson, you must be clear now, you must not confuse things because we want our questions to be answered as well. Otherwise we will call bouncers now.
On a point of order, Chairperson.
Hon Mkhaliphi, you are out of order. Hon Opperman, can we restart this ... [Interjections.] ... can you do your part as well.
Thank you, House Chair. With the exception of Lepelle- Nkumpi Local Municipality, most municipalities in Limpopo are dangerously dysfunctional. The province is aware of this and they are failing to intervene proactively. Are you, Minister, aware that in Thabazimbi Municipality eight ANC councillors individually owe the municipality up to R78 000 each for rates and services for the past two years? This is despite schedule 1 of the Municipal Systems Act being clear that councillors should not be in arrears for more than three months. How will her department address this issue?
Hon Minister, are you in a position to answer?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: If Thabazimbi is not able to run the municipality they must say so because you can't say that councillor so and so in Thabazimbi has done this, then what will the national Minister do? If you can't run that municipality let us know and we will run it for you. Thank you.
Hon Ceza! Hon Ceza.
Chairperson.
Yes, you posed a supplementary question.
Yes, I did Chairperson.
The hon Minister answered the way she did. I cannot dictate what the hon Minister should say or should not say, but the opportunity that is available to you - if you are not happy or not satisfied with the answer that you got - is that you still have an opportunity to put your question in writing so that you get an answer. What is important here is whether you got an answer to take to your constituency. Thank you very much.
Chairperson, I just want to ask the question
... [Inaudible.] ...
... let us not dialogue about it, hon member.
... what becomes the use for the exercise to come here and ask questions?
Hon Ceza, I made a ruling on that. Would you mind to accept it? Can we continue, hon Phiri ...
... Chairperson ... hi Chair.
What is your point of order, hon Mkhaliphi?
Chairperson, it seems as if you don't even understand what you are raising as well. You are saying, Chair ... [Interjetions.] ... Wait ... you are saying Chairperson, she responded and she responded and she does not provide the answer as per the question ...
... hon Mkhaliphi ...
... Chaiperson, wait ...
... hon Mkhaliphi, we can't have a situation where we will do what we are doing.
Chairperson, we are not saying that we are not happy about the response, we are saying that she is responding on the misinformed position ...
... hon Chairperson ...
... hon Mkhaliphi, as you continue I will have to switch off your microphone.
But wena [you], what is your problem, wena [you]? What is your problem?
Uh ... point of order, Chairperson.
... you are not even a whip, wena [you] man! Sit down! You must fall, mnx.
AN HON MEMBER: On a point of order!
... point of order, Chairperson!
What is your point of order, hon member? ... Can one of you take a seat?
Chairperson, I am rising on Rule
92 to say, if you made any ruling there shouldn't be any follow up on your ruling. We must abide by that Rule in this House.
Hon members, hon members! Can we be in order, please? Hon members!
Thank you, hon Chair. Hon Minister, does the department have any machinery in place in taking appropriate steps to ensure that the budget or revenue raising measures are approved where a municipality is
placed under section 154 and subsequently section 139. I thank you?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Hon member, I will answer that question later because it does not arise directly from this question. It is a totally different question but I will answer it. Thank you.
Question 302:
Hon Maneli, the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Public Service are the exact authorities responsible for leading the amendments on these legislative frameworks we have mentioned, which includes the Municipal Finance Management Act, the Public Finance Management Act and the Public Service Act. Having said so, we will nonetheless make our inputs into the amendments as per normal legislative review processes.
As part of this process, the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation in the Presidency subjects new laws and regulations to the Socioeconomic Impact Assessment System, Seias, process before submission to
Cabinet and Parliament. The assessments results will inform Cabinet if the revisions of the Public Finance Management Act and the Municipal Finance Management Act enable and facilitate rather than impede developmental objectives and effective and efficient implementation of programmes whilst ensuring accountability, transparency and combating fraud and corruption. Ke a leboga [Thank you.]
Thank you hon Minister for the response that is reassuring - which states that by the time these pieces of legislations are introduced, Cabinet and Parliament would have been assured that a socioeconomic impact assessment has been done. But Minister, whilst waiting for the responsible department to introduce proposed amendments to these pieces of legislation - what other measures has government introduced to ensure that our development objectives are achieved as outlined in the National Development Plan? I thank you.
Thank you once again, hon Maneli. Outside of these legislative prescripts, the sixth administration has identified seven priorities to
respond to impediments to our developmental objectives and fast-track economic development. These seven priorities we all know. The first priority focuses on economic transformation and job creation; the second on education, skills and ensuring health to our nation; the third one on consolidating the social wage through reliable and quality basic services; the fourth one, spatial integration, human settlements and local government; the fifth one, social cohesion and safe communities - including the fight against corruption and crime; the sixth one, a capable, ethical and developmental state, and lastly - the seventh one, a better Africa and a better world.
These seven priorities have informed the crafting of the Medium-Term Strategic Framework which will guide and anchor the work of government in the next five years to achieve developmental objectives in line with the National Development Plan. Thank you very much.
Minister Mthembu, given the rampant corruption in the public service, will the Presidency support the blacklisting of public servants and
politicians who have proven track records of unethical behaviour, incompetence and failure - some of whom are known ANC leaders, and prevent them from working in the public service as part of measures to prevent government departments and entities from recycling the same failed officials and politicians into the public service, if not, what are your reasons?
Hon Malatsi, you know that there are ample pieces of legislation in this country to deal with any incidences of corruption - whether in the public service or in the private sector, therefore, we have the means to deal with corruption. And as we have said, one of our priorities is dealing with corruption and crime in our country. We would not be found wanting in relation to these matters and we have the necessary legislative framework to ensure that corruption is dealt with. Thank you very much.
House Chairperson, I just would like to say that I am glad that Mr Mthembu knows who the real Minister should be.
But hon Hill Lewis, no! [Interjections.] I think the hon Maotwe is to follow.
Thank you very much House Chair, through you to the Minister in the Presidency, part of your mandate is monitoring, planning and evaluation. I think I am right. We have Acts that are nicely written but are never implemented. We have the Public Finance Management Act, the Municipal Finance Management Act and the Public Service Act. The question is, "What is failing you and your department to be more proactive than being reactive?"
Every year when the Auditor-General comes here, we hear him giving us very bad reports about many departments in your government. All state-owned enterprises, SOEs, right now as they stand, are getting disclaimers, which is a very bad thing. What measures do you have in place to make sure that ... You spoke about lifestyle audits earlier on, but that is what you are going to use as a factional tool for your own government. Tell us what you
are going to do that is going to prevent us from experiencing what we are experiencing now.
You know - the planning, monitoring and evaluation approach is an approach that government has just adopted a few years ago, but such an approach has also not found concrete expression even at local level. We are of course busy trying to ensure that such an approach is rolled out to our provincial offices, through the offices of the premiers. Therefore, this exercise that we have started is indeed a work in progress.
After some time, all of us will do some evaluation and see whether there are any other activities we need to include in our planning, monitoring and evaluation efforts, but at the moment we think we are on track. We know that there are many other metros and municipal offices that also are getting assistance from us to ensure that there is effective monitoring at those levels as well. I can assure you that if we didn't have the capacity to plan, monitor and evaluate, the probability
is that we would be in a worse off situation now. Thank you very much.
Question 290:
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you very much. I think it's important for us to understand the different spheres and what their responsibilities are.
Now to be asked about tenders in the municipalities is a bit too much because you can't quote me any regulation or rule that says the National Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs can now intervene in tenders at the municipalities. I think we must accept where we do not have the legislative or legal means to go and intervene in a municipality on tenders. There are rules; there are regulations on how municipalities must issue tenders.
Now if they issue them fraudulently, the law must take its course. So for me, all I can say is that the Municipal Finance Management Act empowers the National Treasury to play directive and oversight. But to this
end, the Treasury on 30 May 2014 published the Municipal Regulations on Financial Misconduct Procedures and Criminal Proceedings. These regulations set out processes and procedures and reporting requirements to expeditiously deal with allegations of financial misconduct. These regulations must be read together with the Municipal Systems Act, 2000, and the regulations issued in terms thereof.
Furthermore, municipalities are required to establish disciplinary boards to assist the municipal council or the board of directors of a municipal entity with the investigation of allegations of financial misconduct.
For our part and in order to reinforce our efforts to fight corruption and promote good governance, the department has rolled out training programmes since the beginning of 2017-18 financial year in each district level on the Local Government Anti-Corruption Strategy and the Municipal Integrity Management Framework. The strategy sets out the objectives that must be pursued by municipalities to prevent and combat corruption.
The department has almost completed the training in the 90% of the districts and metros. This will be completed in the next financial year.
So, in combating and further preventing corruption, the department is working with provinces and municipalities to ensure the implementation of recommendations emanating from forensic reports. Most of the forensic reports made recommendations that certain remedial or other corrective measures should be taken.
Furthermore, the department is collaborating with the SA Local Government Association, Salga, the Ethics Institute
and the Moral Regeneration Movement to launch the local government ethical leadership initiative.
In addition to this, the department will continue to collaborate with law enforcement agencies such as Special Investigating Unit, SIU, the Hawks and National Prosecuting Authority to support investigation and prosecutions in municipalities, as well as the implementation of recommendations emanating from the
forensic reports. That's what we are doing. That's what the Treasury has done. But we have no direct way of intervening. Thank you.
Thank you, House Chair. Minister, I am very disappointed at your response. It is very clear, even Chief Justice Mogoeng Mogoeng has said, this country; provincial, local and national loses over R200 billion a year in this country. Now the question is, what the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs is doing to mitigate or putting measures in place so that this corruption that is taking place particularly with fraud in tenders' not getting value for money in all spheres of government?
It is the responsibility of the Department of Co- operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. I know that the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs is a toothless body nationally when it comes to issues dealing with the provinces and locally because you cannot do anything about it, Minister, provincial tell national, don't interfere, this is a provincial mandate.
Now the question is, what measures are you putting in place to mitigate, to stop this level of looting in all spheres of government so that we get value for money and take that extra R200 billion and put it into the delivery of services in the country? [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you. As the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, earlier I talk about how we are trying to work as a government, not as distinct spheres. I said that this way of working at a district level will also introduce transparency because if we all have one plan, one budget, and we know who is supposed to do what and when, that will introduce a level of accountability because everybody will know what the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs is supposed to do in these districts.
Everybody will know how much money is supposed to be spent on that project and when it is supposed to be done. So, obviously if there is a school or a bridge or municipal offices to be built and they are not built, the
money is disappearing, we will all know and we will take action in this one plan one budget.
But I am talking about as things stands today. That's why we have said, we have learned lessons from the past 25 years of working in an uncoordinated, non-integrated, non-cooperative way. That's why now we are introducing that. That's why we are piloting that so that indeed everyone can be accountable both for implementing but also for the resources that are being spent.
But it's also for the same reason that the Auditor- General introduce the amendment so that he can actually give a certificate of debts to the person who has done wrong and the debts be collected. So, there are measures. There are measures that we are taking in terms of co- operative governance so that we stop this thing of saying no this is national spheres, this is provincial sphere and this is local. That's precisely why the District Development Model is being piloted so that we can all have sight on what is supposed to happen in every district in this country by who and for how much. So, we
are doing that because we have recognised the weaknesses that were there. Thank you.
Thanks, Chair. Minister, a big reason why tender fraud and wastage in municipalities balloons to such an extent is because officials who commit irregularities or fraud or corruption can get away so easily. So, today you have spent a great deal of time telling us how little you can do from a co-operative governance perspective.
But one thing that you can do, Minister, is to keep a list of officials who have been dismissed in municipalities, all who have resigned in anticipation of facing disciplinary consequences. If fact, section 57 (a) of the Municipal Systems Act anticipates or requires the Minister to keep such a list.
Of course, its purpose would be to stop job hoppers from resigning from one municipality where they have created a mess or stolen money or broken the rules and in being hired at a different municipality.
Minister, of course, we can talk about the examples of chief financial officers under whose watch money deposited in VBS Bank. Has that list been updated, Minister? Thanks very much. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Yes, that list is there, but that list does not
... When somebody is going to be employed, we get informed and we have to look at it, look at whether they meet the requirements and advice. But not every level of official in a municipality we are informed about. So, for those that we are informed about, yes, but there are laws at a lower level who we are not informed about who worked in the municipalities.
Sometimes people working in the supply chain may not necessarily be in the category where when they are employed we get informed. So, yes, you are right where we get informed by law but there are others where we don't get informed. It still happens. That's why I was saying we work with the Hawks, we work with everybody where fraud has been committed so that they can investigate and find out what is going on.
But the councils themselves, because we are talking here as though there is no oversight in the municipalities, the councils must also take their responsibilities in the municipalities. Thank you.
Thank you very much, Chair. Minister, will the government consider abolishing tenders for good governance because up to date, since 1994, the manner in which the tenders are designed, they are only designed only to benefit a few in societies with meagre salaries that are given to workers resulting in this R240 billion tender fraud that could not provide a permanent work.
So, how the Minister is going to put measures in place for government to do away with tenders so that we deal with the issue of unemployment permanently in South Africa? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: The Minister of Finance ...
IsiZulu:
... ungibuka kabi njengoba ngisukuma ngakhoke ngeke ngize ngiwuphendule lowo mbuzo.
English:
But let me say that where tenders are done wrongly, this must be addressed. The important thing in the District Model ... [Interjections.] Let me finish. The important thing in the District Model is really to ensure that we have people who can do the work in the district. Once the District Model works, we will not have municipalities getting consultants or service providers doing tenders even for Integrated Development Plans, IDPs, even for their financial reports, even for all these things just doing tenders. We want them to have capacity to do it internally. That's the first thing.
But of course, if there is a big bridge in the N2 that needs to be built then they cannot do that. Local
government will have to get a company that can do that. But it should be done properly. And also, if we train people in the district, they can provide a lot of the services. Even in the existing companies, for instance,
if there is an auto company, the government is saying young people should be trained to provide the spares. The spares must not come from all over the place. There must be manufactured here by small companies that then feed to the big companies.
So, the important thing is to ensure that we have small and medium enterprises that do the work because if we don't do that we will end up with this kind of situations, and also train our young peoples so that their skills addressed what the economy needs.
I agree with you that, you can't give me a tender to provide SAA with aircrafts.
IsiZulu:
Ngazini ngalokho?
English:
If I get such a tender, it's wrong. That kind of tender that can be given to me to buy aircrafts for SAA will not be good for me. Thank you.
Thank you, hon Minister. I was just about to address the denouement, hon Minister, of your voice. But you ended up at a climax. Thank you very much.
I think once again, Chair, I will ...
Hon Ceza, I did not recognise you.
Thank you, House Chair. Minister, the amendment of the Public Audit Act provides the Auditor- General with more powers to ensure accountability. The question to you, Minister, is that, what is your department doing in making sure that all the entities that report within your portfolio support the Auditor- General in this regard?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you. Let me start by saying yes, there are problems in the department, for instance, let's start with the Department of Co-operative Governance and
Traditional Affairs. There are problems there but we are dealing with them.
Obviously, when the Auditor-General has a disclaimer in the department, for instance, may end up issuing a certificate debts somewhere if he feels that something was done wrongly by an individual or accounting individual, obviously, we will support him.
But the audit committee and other entities are working and we are also developing a plan. We have a plan to make sure we address some of the issues that the Auditor- General has been raising in his audit, for instance, there are lots of things that the Auditor-General has raised. But in Traditional Affairs, they got a clean audit. The Municipal Infrastructure Support Agent, Misa, got a clean audit. But where there are issues, we are addressing them so that, firstly, we improve. But also, the officials themselves need to make sure that they don't end up with a certificate of debts from the Auditor-General. We are doing our best but we are starting from a very low base of a disclaimer, not one year but a number of years. Thank you.
Question 307:
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Chairperson, the amalgamation of Ventersdorp and Tlokwe local municipalities which resulted in the formation of the JB Marks Local Municipality in 2016, I would frankly say that it hasn't achieved all its intended results. If we judge it by the rate of community protests relating to service delivery, I would say it hasn't. But there have been some improvements. It is not all gloom and doom. There have been some improvements in service delivery at a very slow pace. For, example, the municipality managed to stabilise electricity network in Ventersdorp. More households have been connected to the grids than before the merge and they have been able to buy more equipments and yellow fleets and deployed them in Ventersdorp to fast-track service delivery.
However, in recent times there have been community protests that took place in Ventersdorp on matters relating to service delivery again. As a result the premier of the province has established a technical task team comprising officials from provincial government and from the municipality to address the concerns. We were
also been in formed that the task team meets on a monthly basis with the communities of Ventersdorp to address the challenges. We also know that the municipality is finalising a master plan to address service delivery backlogs and to promote more development in the area to stimulate economic growth. Thank you.
Thank you so much, House Chair. Hon Minister, I appreciate your honesty and the fact that it hasn't achieved the desired fruit. All of these happen in the midst of you heading an interministerial task team where the province and ten portfolios in the province itself are under administration. Minister, the ANC in 2001 had 61% of the votes in Tlokwe, JB Marks. In 2016, they got 50,8% of the votes in JB Marks. Can you tell us the truth of why the amalgamation had to take place?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: The amalgamation took place in 2016, and not in the midst of me being in the North West. I think you got your years wrong. There was a need to amalgamate because there it was thought that amalgamating the two will make them a stronger municipality than when they are separate
- the weaker one would be strengthened by the stronger one when they are amalgamated. I think that was the reason.
Of course, mergers don't just merge and everything work well the following day; it takes time. Even the merger itself takes time because you are taking two municipalities that may not be belonging to the same class. One municipality may have high salaries and the other one have lower salaries and all sorts of things that have to be dealt with in a merge. So you can't say it has failed in a few years. I am just being honest by saying I can't say I stand here today and say everything is okay. But there is progress and we have just to work hard at it. It is not a sprint but a marathon. Thank you.
Thank you, Hon House Chair. Hon Minister, following the Minister's request in terms of section 22(2) of the Municipal Demarcation Act, the Municipal Demarcation Board has raised concerns that during the process of redetermination of boundaries many municipalities do not fully participate in the process. The question is, how can the department intervene or
assist in ensuring that there is maximum participation particularly from those affected municipalities? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you. Yes, you are correct. We have started working with the Demarcation Board to make sure that when they go to a municipality, the municipality and the councillors in that municipality are informed. The community must know that they must participate. This is something that we are doing. Yes, they have raised that with us that when they go to municipalities they only meet with planners in the municipality and people don't know, councillors don't come, and then when the demarcation has been done they start complaining because they were not in the discussions. So it is something that we are working on as I say we are making sure that they are informed and we hope that they will indeed participate. There is a process of encouraging them to participate in those discussions. Thank you.
Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, in 2017, the Financial and Fiscal Commission's, FFC,
submission to the Division of Revenue Bill published results of a research that they did with regard to amalgamation of municipalities. The research that they published was very clear. What you've just said why this amalgamation happened to actually save the municipality is not the case. And they based it on case studies of what was done previously. In all those cases all the towns affected were worse off. So is it not time, Minister, to stop the amalgamations and focus on smaller effective units of service delivery? Is it not time for a new approach as this one has clearly failed? I thank you.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Thank you. What we have decided as the department is to do a proper study of why they are failing, and where there is success then we see why it is succeeding. As a department we are not going to ask for more amalgamations until we understand why they are not working properly as envisaged. So we are not going to be asking for more amalgamations because when we research we may find that maybe there are certain ingredients that are needed for it to succeed. But for now we are not
calling for more amalgamations until we understand what is going on. Thank you.
My apology, House Chair. I am in the next question. Thank you.
But you are in my list, hon member. But it's fine.
Question 303:
Chair, Cabinet at its June 2019 deliberations endorsed the 25 Year Review Report as being a fair reflection of the achievements and challenges the democratic government and our have experienced since 1994. The departure point of the 25 Year Review Report is that the apartheid system subjected black people and black women in particular to enumerable forms of discrimination and bias. Rural people and youth were marginalised and women bore the brunt of poverty.
The 25 Year Review Report found that multi dimensional poverty measured in terms of composite indicators for health, education, standard of living and economic
activity has decreased. This is because government programmes over the past 25 years have protected millions of South Africans against the devastating impact of poverty through social grants and free basic services amongst others. However, when measured in terms of the financial dimensions, poverty levels have increased and remained inconsistent with government stated objectives. The face of poverty in South Africa is still black and female. This has remained one of the greatest development challenges in South Africa after 1994.
At the launch of the 25 Year Review Report on the 8th of November 2019, the President of our country accentuated the existed seamless connection between recommendations made in the 25 Year Review Report and the seven national government priorities for 2019-2024 as articulated earlier. These priorities are embodied and embedded in the Medium Term Strategic Framework for 2019-2024, which will inform the work of government and nongovernment actors alike for the five years.
Having provided political leadership and technical support for the production of both the 25 Year Review
Report and the Medium Term Strategic Framework for 2019- 2024, the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation's role is to ensure implementation of the latter by all key role players, state and non-state. This will be achieved through cascading the Medium Term Strategic Framework into the strategic and annual performance plans of government departments as well as social's compacts with non-state actors to achieve the eradication of poverty, unemployment and inequality. Thank you, Chair.
Minister Mthembu, the fact that poverty levels remain as high as they currently are and that both inequality and poverty continue as they have been for the last few years is proof that the government's economic policies are clearly failing. Will the presidency be courageous enough to adopt pro-growth policy in order to attract investment and provide support to small businesses so that you can optimise job creation and tackle inequality? Thank you.
Thank you very much hon ntate Malatsi, it was a bit premature, I was supposed to have called hon Malomane.
Can I respond?
Yes, please.
It will be very myopic to think that the discrimination of over three hundred years could be stopped within a 25 year period. Indeed, looking from where we were 25 years ago, we can without hesitation say that the lives of people have improved for the better. By the way in 1994, when we took over, there were only 8 million people employed in our country. How many people are employed today? Over 16 million. But again, black people like you Malatsi never even thought that they would even get into Parliament. So you must be thankful that through the work of the ANC you a sitting Member of Parliament. Again, women were nothing under apartheid. They were non people. They could not own anything.
Today, women are not only Members of Parliament and Ministers, but are owners of businesses in our country. Thank you very much for the 25 year achievements. Of course, we still need to do a lot to ensure that our economy work. We still need to do a lot. Our economy is not working as we would have thought. But how would it work when it excluded so many people 25 years ago. We are on track, we have a strategy that has come from the Minister of Finance to ensure that our economy works and we are on track. Thank you very much.
Sihlalo, siyabonga Ndvuna kutsi litiko liyachubeka liyasebenta.
English:
My follow up question is that, what are the findings of the 25 Year Review Report, in respect of the triple challenges like poverty, unemployment and inequality based on race ...
Siswati:
... ngicela ungive kahle Ndvuna,
English:
... based on race, class and gender? Thank you.
Based on the statistic analysis used by the Department of Planning Monitoring and Evaluation, on the 25 year review as provided by Stats SA, the total population trapped ... [Interjections.]
Point of Order!
What is your point of order, hon Julius?
House Chairperson, I would just like to know in terms of accountability, how can the Minister read a follow up question asked by an ANC member? Are you not holding the Ministers accountable?
Hon member, why do you want to disrupt the flow?
... perhaps, we need to deal with the facts and the figures, all of them. Let me start at the beginning hon Chair.
Yes, you may hon Minister.
Based on statistics, nilalele [you should listen!] used by the Department of Monitoring on the 25 year review as provided by Stats SA in 2017, the total population trapped in lower-bound poverty in 2011, living on an income of R758 per person per month, 41,4% were black African women. By 2015, these figures had increased to 49,2%. In contrast, only 0,5% of those living within the lower-bound poverty line in 2011 were white males.
Furthermore, while lower-bound poverty levels for black African women deteriorated, levels for white males improved marginally from 0,5% in 2011 to 0,4% in 2015. The review also elucidated the fact that over the 25 years of democracy, the number of people employed has doubled from some 8,9 million in 1994, to 16,5 million in
2018. However, the country's economy which recorded a pedestrian 2,8% GDP growth over the 25 years, did not create jobs at the rate required to absorb the existing army of unemployed and new entrants. Translating the numbers into rates, the 25 year review report found that the official unemployment rate reached an all time high of 36,4% in 1999, fell below 25% between 2006 and 2015, reached a figure of 21,5% in 2008, just as the global financial crisis hit ... [Time Expired.]
House Chair, having noted the pronouncement made by the Minister of Finance during the Medium Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS, on cost- cutting measures, has the National Treasury issued any instructions in a form of the practice note or any other tool to effect the decision made and pronouncement made? Thank you, hon House Chair.
The cost-cutting measures as pronounced by the Minister of Finance ... [Interjections.]
Hon members, please ...
... you don't want me to look down, ok. The cost-cutting measures as pronounced by the Minister of Finance are measures that all of us will be speaking to through our programmes in government. Secondly, even as the President interacts with us and the signs performance agreements with all of us as the executive authorities, the issues of cost- cutting measures will be part of those agreements that we will sign. Equally, even the performance agreements that will be signed between the director-generals, DGs, and other low ranking officials will take into account the cost- cutting measures as pronounced by the Minister of Finance. Thank you very much.
IsiZulu:
Nqgonqgoshe ake siyikhulume ngesiZulu lendaba ngoba manje uma siyikhuluma ngesiNgisi kukhona lapho silahlekelana khona. Sikhuluma ngodaba olubucayi kabi lokulwisana namathuba omsebenzi, ubuphuya nenhlupheko yabantu. Manje nina Ngqongqoshe nihlala
laphaya egunjini okubanjelwa kulo imihlangano nicabangele abantu abahluphekayo, nibhale nithi nalu ucwaningo. Nibhekise izinto ocwaningweni enilwenzile.
English:
You must be practical.
IsiZulu:
Manje wena njengoNgqongqoshe obekade uthi ubandlululo luphelile. Nina njengohulumeni ka-ANC, uhulumeni wentando yeningi nenza izinto zenzeke. Laba bantu abahluphekayo ababhuqwa yindlala nsukuzonke, nina nishaywa umoya laphaya njengoNgqongqoshe beKhabinethi nenza kanjani ...
English:
... to address this thing because you must be worried instead of coming here and talk big English while our people are suffering.
IsiZulu:
USIHLALO WENDLU (Mnu M L D Ntombela: Siyabonga mhlonishwa.
Awume, abantu abakhe eFree State ...
USIHLALO WENDLU (Mnu M L D Ntombela): Siyabonga mhlonishwa. Wena awuhlale phansi ubambe umthetho.
Let's just start where you ended. If the ANC-led government was not a carrying government the President would not have said in the next five years he would like to have people coming into the country with investments worth R1,2 trillion, he would not have said that ... [Interjections.]
What is your point of order?
IsiZulu:
Ngizwa nginokukhulu ukuphoxeka ngoba lana umhlonishwa wethu lana ukhulumela abantu abasemakhaya hhayi ngesiNgisi kodwa ngesiZulu. Bengicela aphendule ngesiZulu. Uyasazi isiZulu, hhayi indaba yokucasha ngesiNgisi. Uma bekhankasa, bakhankasa ngezilimi zomdabu. [Ihlombe.]
UNGQONGQOSHE EHHOVISI LIKAMONGAMELI: UMongameli wezwe
uthe ukuze silwisane nendlala silwisane nokuhlupheka uzokwenza konke okusemandleni wakhe ukuthi kube nabantu abafaka izimali ezweni. Izimali ezithi azifike kuR1,2 thriliyoni kuleminyaka emihlanu ezayo. Kulonyaka lo esikhuluma ngawo kulokhu uMongameli akukhulumile abantu abafake izimali sebafake izimali ezingamabhiliyoni angu363 ukuze abantu abantu bakithi bathole imisebenzi. [Ihlombe.]
Ngingasakhulumi ngalonyaka nje kuphela. Kulonyaka lo ophelile kwingqungquthela yokutshalwa kwezimali ebeyenzwe nguMongameli futhi, abantu abafaka izimali abakhona eNingizimu Afrika abavela ngaphandle bafake amabhiliyoni angama-300 ukuze kwakhiwe amathuba emisebenzi. [Ihlombe.] Ngakho ke siyabona ke ukuthi impela lohulumeni kakhongolose uzimisele ukwenza amathuba emisebenzi nokwenza ukuthi intsha yethu yaseNingizimu Afrika ithole imisebenzi ngenxa yalokutshalwa kwezimali okwenziwe ezweni. [Ihlombe.]
Sihlalo, ... akube nokuthula! Njengoba uMongameli wakho exosha abasebenzi epulazini lakhe, uzobaqasha kanjani abantu ezweni?
English:
Cover that one.
IsiZulu:
Uxosha abasebenzi.
Hon Mkhaliphi, I did not even recognise you. Hon members, can I get your attention please? I really need special tranquility for this. Yes, special tranquility! The time allocated for questions has expired, outstanding replies received will be printed in the Hansard. That concludes the business of the day.
The House adjourned at 18:27. -----------------------