Thanks Chairperson. In response, thank you to hon Dhlomo for the question about the compact which was signed by the President with various stakeholders.
In terms of this compact, there were nine pillars which were agreed upon. The first one was the augmentation of human resources. In this regard, a lot of work has been done. The ministerial task team on human resources for health is finalising the human resources for health strategy and the plan. However, a lot of work has already happened. As a result of the stimulus package which was announced by the President in the previous term, funds were identified through which the health Human Resources Capacitation Grant was created, and in this regard R350 million was allocated to the provinces to appoint key and essential staff.
We are also dealing with the issue of public nursing colleges which have been consolidated in all provinces, with each province having one major campus and satellite campuses for nurses' training with the new curriculum for training. So, all that work is under way.
The second pillar was to ensure access to essential medicines, vaccines and medical products. In this regard, we are implementing what we call the Stock Visibility System to improve oversight over pharmaceutical stock in all provinces. This is ongoing. Also, the Centralised Chronic Medicines Dispensing ... which allows stable patients to collect their medication, not necessarily at health facilities, is ongoing. The third one was on infrastructure. Again, here we have a
10 year plan to implement infrastructure improvements.
Engagements with the private sector was the next one. In this regard, we are guided by the findings of the Health Market Inquiry in terms of areas of improvement in accessibility of the private health system.
In terms of those pillars, improvement of quality was number five. A national Quality Improvement Plan is being implemented and the national department is also establishing quality learning centres in all provinces. Also, the Ideal Clinic programme is gaining momentum with more than 55% of our clinics already acquiring ideal status.
The sixth pillar was on improving efficiency of the public sector's financial management system. In this regard, the national chief financial officer, CFO, is meeting on a regular basis with all provincial CFOs to improve financial management.
The seventh pillar was improving leadership. In terms of this, as a national Department of Health we are already reviewing our organogram to ensure that it is in line with the preparations for the National Health Insurance, NHI, and also
... be able to support the improvement of leadership in all our facilities.
The eighth one was engaging and empowering communities. In this regard, a number of clinic committees and hospital boards have been formed and capacitated.
The last one was in terms of improving our health information systems. Here also is a lot of improvement with what we call the Health Patient Registration System, where more than 3 051 primary health facilities have already been given the necessary equipment, computers and training, and ... registration of the population on the Health Patient Registration System.
So that is the work that has been done in terms of the compact which the President signed with various stakeholders.
Thank you. Before I ask hon Dhlomo to ask a follow-up question, I just want to remind the Ministers and Deputy Ministers who will be responding that your time has now been extended to four minutes, unlike before where you used to have three minutes. That was approved by the Rules Committee. ... the first response. Hon Dhlomo?
Thank you Deputy Minister for the response. Without pre- empting the NHI public hearing processes ...
IsiZulu:
... abantu kodwa bayakhala kakhulu ngalezi zinto ozibhale lapho nozichazayo eziku-Presidential Health Compact. Izikhalo ezikhona eNingizimu Afrika yonke ukuthi kungasheshi. Into engifuna ukuyibuka mina Sekela Ngqongqoshe lezi zikhalo akwenzeki mhlawumbe ukuthi nisheshise sifake kakhulu i- operation Khawuleza kulezi zinto ngoba abazazi abantu futhi abazizwa. Niwazise umphakathi ukuthi ...
English:
...where are you as a department with regard to the clinic this side, with regard to infrastructure improvements here, so that, that can actually be known, not only to the department and maybe to us, but so that societies out there know the timelines and the time frames you have, and ... you are putting forward?
IsiZulu: USEKELA NGQONGQOSHE WEZEMPILO: Ngiyabonga kakhulu Dokotela uDhlomo ...
English:
Indeed, as the hon Dhlomo is indicating, we are probably lacking in the area of adequate communication and information with our stakeholders. So, that is indeed an area where we are working, together with our partners in the provinces, the MECs and also at municipal level ... and also appreciating ... we believe that the programme which is pioneered by the President on a district development model will help a lot in terms of ensuring that whatever is being done, whether from a national or a provincial sphere, will always be done together with the district and local municipalities. In that regard, we hope that the level of consultation, communication and sharing of information will improve.
Thank you very much. The time for the reply of subsequent questions is two minutes and the members who will be asking follow-up questions, besides the member who poses the question, have only one minute to ask their follow-up questions. Let's be clear on that. We now go to Mrs Wilson from the DA.
Thank you. Deputy Minister, pillar three of the health compact deals with the acquisition of resources for health, medicines, machinery, personnel, etc. Limpopo province has only one oncology unit for the entire province. A recent visit there showed that the radiation machine has broken down so often that some people's radiation treatment is now six to eight weeks behind. During the same visit we saw that there were no first-line drugs available for colon cancer or breast cancer for the medical oncology unit.
Can the Minister please tell us what is going to be done to uplift and procure decent resources for the treatment of cancer, particularly in light of the fact that there has been a 30% increase over the last couple of years in the reporting of cancer patients?
Thank you very much Chair. Indeed, the treatment of cancer is one of our priority areas. I think almost one and a half years ago at the National Health Council we adopted an agreement with all our MECs on the national strategy to improve our cancer treatment facilities. We acknowledge that, especially your more rural provinces have very minimal facilities. You look at Limpopo, Mpumalanga, the Northern Cape. Most of the facilities will be in your urban provinces. As a result, those get very crowded.
So, we are actually working with them to ensure that we can upgrade the equipment; if necessary, even provide prescribed grants which will be able to support them with the equipment but also with the appointment of qualified staff to manage that equipment. So, that is definitely on our radar screen. Whenever we have our National Health Council we will be looking at the shortcomings and the progress in that regard.
Members, please let's talk softly. I can hear what you are saying from where you are. I don't want to hear that. The IFP ...
IsiZulu:
Ubab'uNxumalo nomam'uHlengwa ...
English:
... have to decide which one takes it. Okay, thank you.
Thank you Madam. Hon Deputy Minister, the promise of the compact was ... the health system cannot be fixed by the Health Department alone, but requires a holistic focus and a collaborative approach.
If there ... promises ... a people-centred health care system that doesn't discriminate against the economic line, my question is as follows. How do you intend fulfilling such promises when our people in rural areas continue to have little or no access to basic health care services?
IsiZulu:
NjengakoMahlabathini kanje.
Thanks hon Chair and the hon member. Indeed, we are aware that - while the hon member is correct that the major aspect of the compact was to say that government working alone cannot make the desired improvements; we need other stakeholders to be involved - when you go to rural areas you don't have the advantage of urban areas where you can even crowd in ... private sector and the professionals. We have very limited resources in the rural areas. So, we are aware that in rural areas we essentially need to focus on mobilising the leadership at community level ... community health workers and making maximum use of public resources because that is all that you have in the rural areas.
So, we are strengthening our systems but we are making sure that we also bring in local leadership to work with us in order to ensure that we use the little resources - which are only public resources because we have very little of the private sector in rural areas - to the maximum.
Thank you very much hon Chairperson. Deputy Minister, in terms of the budget, do you have any contingency measures to deal with the issue of shortages in our hospitals
and clinics, because it's always a problem when people get there and they find there are no medicines? So I just want to check that you have ... [Inaudible.] ... those issues.
Thanks hon member. Indeed, as members will be aware, we are currently going through a difficult situation in terms of the fiscus. So, the key thing here is that, working with our colleagues in the provinces, we are not expecting additional financial resources because if we think improvement is going to come through increased budgets that will be unrealistic. However, what we are focussing on is the improvement of efficiencies. We are aware that in our current delivery systems there is still a lot of inefficiencies in terms of the management of stock; in terms of the management of equipment; the maintenance of equipment; and the maintenance of infrastructure. So, those are the things that we are focusing on; to say how we can make maximum use of what we have. We have a number of oversights on a regular basis and work with our colleagues in provinces to focus specifically ... That's why we also have what we call non-negotiables in terms of maintenance, medication, the provision of food, clean linen and so on, so that you must focus on in improving those efficiencies. If we think we can throw money; we don't have any money to throw in terms of solving some of those shortcomings.
Question 54:
Hon Chair, this is a matter which for myself and hon Singh has become almost like our bread and butter. We deal with it on a very regular basis. Just in brief, hon members: The challenge here is regulations and the Act, in terms of the Health Professions Council Act, which prescribes the requirements in terms of registration of locally trained professionals, including medical professionals.
Section 25 of the Act also deals with registration of foreign qualified graduates. We have been dealing with this matter with the Health Professions Council of South Africa, HPCSA, because one of those key problematic areas. There are two areas which are problematic. The one is in terms of the applicant for registration must submit an original certificate of good standing from the registration authority where that person has qualified.
In the past, the only equivalent which was required was a certificate of good character from the institution of training where that person qualified. So, that was easier to manage. Now, this provision of original certificate of good standing of not more that six months issued by the registration authority has been there in the regulations but it was not really applied in that way. It was more of a character from the university, which was easier, because you are a graduate and you can obtain a certificate from your institution.
The moment there was emphasis now on the registration authority. That created problems because when you are just a fresh graduate, you have not been practicing. You might have been registered with the SA Health Professions Council, like in our case here in South Africa, when you are a clinical medical student until you complete your final year. So, there is registration and you can prove that.
However, the certificate of good standing talks to your practice. So, when you have not practised, then that becomes an obstacle. That is one issue on which we say we must be deal with the SA Health Professions Council. The other issue which the hon member had also raised is about internship because one of the requirements also is that you must submit proof of having done internship.
A very few countries which will give an opportunity for a foreign graduate also employ them as an intern. So we thought we have dealt with that matter in our policy but down the line we realise that the Health Professions Council of South Africa is still stuck to what they had been practicing. So, it is a matter on which we are in engagement. We want to rediscuss the matter with the Health Professions Council of South Africa and hopefully we can be able to find each other in this regard. Thank you.
Hon Chairperson and hon Deputy Minister, I am very glad that you are answering this question because as you quite correctly say, here are 60 or 70 pages of Hansard where we had a long debate in 2018 on this matter. You clarified it in 2018 and I agree with you that there are challenges and there is confusion. I think the HCPSA in the main is confused.
There are people whose left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing because the very gentleman, Adv P Khumalo who was a registrar, had issued letters to students who completed the board exams in 2018 and 2019, inviting them to apply to become interns, quoting a regulation. So, there has been an interpretation of the regulation way back in 2018.
What has now prompted this new letter to go out, telling students that they will now not be allowed and that they will have to do internship in the country where they studied is quite baffling. I trust that and I even want to quote what you said that, "We will solve this problem out." There are many students who are in the pipeline. They are already studying abroad. Now, we cannot suddenly tell them that they cannot be eligible for internship or to write board exams. So, my question, hon Minister is: Will you ensure, as the Minister responsible for the Act, that we can regularise, provide certainty, consult and avoid court action which is pending? I think that the HPCSA is on very shaky grounds here and the students will win this case. We must avoid that and provide certainty to all the students who want to write board exams timeously and become interns in terms of the regulations. Thank you.
Hon Chair and hon Singh, indeed, at this stage it is quite clear that we have to revisit some of the provisions of the Act, but also largely the regulations. Essentially, if we don't amend the regulations, if the issue of this original certificate of good standing by registration authority stands and also if the other provision about the proof of having done internship remain - notwithstanding a policy which was adopted by a National Health Council in terms of our National health Act, a statutory body, because we have enacted the Minmec-equivalent of all other departments in the National health Act to be a statutory body which makes policy decisions - what is left is really for us to take the matter forward with the council to see, with our legal people, how do we then come with remedial steps to make sure that this matter can be resolved once and for all. Thank you.
Chair, I am going to hand over to hon Chirwa.
Okay!
Chair, Deputy Minister, at the University of KwaZulu-Natal, students from neighbouring countries doing nursing have not been allocated health facilities to do community service. I want to know what the department's plan is to remedy this as it is an opportunity for the department to get their services. This benefits both the department and the patients in them gaining community service. When will they be allocated facilities for them to do community service? Thank you.
Well Chair, clearly this is a different question. [Interjections.] No, I will answer it. I will answer it, but it is a different question. The question from hon Singh had to deal with the registration of foreign qualified medical doctors. You are asking a question about the community service of qualified nurses. I will deal with it, but I am just also highlighting the fact that it is a new question. [Interjections.]
Now, we do indeed have a policy of providing community service for a wide range of health professionals, including those qualified in a nursing profession. However, in the same way as we do with medical doctors - whether it is internship or community service - first of all, we prioritise South African nationals and permanent residents in terms of whatever posts are available. So that is the primary category which we give priority to, like any other country. Only when there are additional posts and if there are foreign national graduates, we then also allocate them.
We do have a challenge in the area of professional nurses because of the fact that we can only allocate ... You find that there are posts, but because of the cutting of the budget, the compensation of employees has the highest cost. In many health institutions you will find that although the posts are required, the terms of the compensation of employees are heating up, eating into the other services of the institution. There is a reduction in that regard. So, we are working with them. That is why in the stimulus package of the previous year, we prioritised nursing as one of those areas where additional funds need to be allocated. So, it is purely a funding issue which we are working with our provinces to try and identify savings through which then those kinds of posts can be activated. Thanks.
Chairperson, Deputy Minister, the crisis with South Africa's health professionals is not due to the supply of doctors and nurses, but due to the lack of funding for critical vacancies. This is despite the fact that annually, the country's higher education institutions and those abroad are producing graduates in this field.
In light of the devastating budget that was tabled by the Minister of Finance a couple of weeks ago, which shows that the Health budget is set to be slashed by almost R4 billion in the next three years or medium term, it is clear that filling vacant posts is going to be near impossible for you and your department. So, how do you intend on filling critical vacant posts that are at the critical coalface of service delivery with the impending budget cuts?
Chair, indeed, we acknowledge the fact that the reduction in the allocation is going to have an impact but we are not throwing our arms in the air. We are looking creatively, amongst others, in some cases in some of our areas, both at the administrative level, like at provincial, regional and even at institutional level.
We have identified areas where there could be service, including acknowledging in some areas that we have too much of a top management bloating. So, we are looking at those areas where possibly people who are eligible to can take early retirement at administrative level could be able to give some space so that we could be able to recoup some of the funds used in those areas.
So, there are many areas in which we are working with our colleagues to identify where there can be savings. We know that it may not be massive but the little bit of what we can retrieve from some of those areas of better efficiencies, we will use to fill in the posts. Thanks.
the last follow-up question in this one will be asked by the hon Meshoe. I don't see hon Meshoe.
It will be taking by myself, Chair.
Ooh! Are you sitting on his chair?
I should have gone back to my seat, but ... [Interjections.]
Okay! No! No, problem. Thank you. Continue.
Hon Deputy Minister, it is known that South Africa has a shortage of medical doctors. These foreign qualified doctors, some of whom I have had the privilege of interacting with about a year or two ago, are patriotic. They are patriotic in wanting to return to South Africa and serve their country. My question is: What is the turnaround time that you are able to giver to us in addressing the inconsistencies raised by hon Singh, so that we can get these patriots to serve their country; or, is this simply a matter of budget? Thank you.
Chair, as I have indicated, it is both the financial side, but also the regulatory side. So, we need to unlock the regulatory side so that then we only deal with the financial side without any impediments of the regulatory side. So, as I said earlier on, from the national health council - the political leadership - we thought the mater had been resolved two years ago and we had been communicating with the Health Professions Council, but clearly we are not at one.
So, we are going back to the drawing board to work with them to relook at the regulatory side in terms of the Act, the provisions of the Act and the regulations. Hopefully, as executive authority, even though the Health Professions Council of South Africa is an independent body, it does report to the Ministry of Health.
So, we hope that we should be able to find each other together with the council in this regard. Then, once that is done, we will only have to deal with the financial side in the manner in which I have answered the other hon member in terms of identifying where we can make savings so that we can be able to fund these critical posts. Thanks.
Question 50: The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND
TECHNOLOGY: House Chairperson, our Constitution underpins our department's policy on languages in Higher Education. In postapartheid South Africa, languages should not be used as a barrier to access any higher education institution in the country. Universities are continuously reviewing their policies, including their language policies, to ensure that this principle is upheld.
Recently, in some universities, which were Afrikaans language institutions under the apartheid law, have reviewed their language policies. These institutions have decided to include English as a primary language of teaching and learning, especially at undergraduate level. This has been solely driven by the imperative to ensure that institutions are inclusive, to better serve the diverse linguistic communities of South Africa and to not deny students access based on language.
Moreover, these decisions have been based on the use of available resources for the maximum benefit of all communities. These processes have been initiated and driven by university communities themselves, in line with legislation which empowers university councils to determine institutional language policies. In all cases, the councils' decisions were challenged in the courts of law and have been upheld up to Constitutional Court level. This is proof that these decisions were correct and are done without malicious intent or prejudice towards Afrikaans, as one of the official languages of our country.
The development of all South African languages and indigenous languages, in particular, is work that the department takes very seriously. It is a constitutional imperative to ensure that all languages are valued and developed. This does not exclude Afrikaans, as one of the 11 official languages protected by the Constitution of the Republic.
However, it should be acknowledged that, in relation to the other official languages, the development of Afrikaans is at an advance stage. Hence, the emphasis of the promotion of individual languages tends to be on the historically marginalised languages.
The aim is not to exclude Afrikaans but rather to highlight the unfortunate historical fact of deliberate state-sponsored underdevelopment of indigenous African languages in the past. The promotion and development of languages in postapartheid South Africa is, and should be an inclusive process where all of our languages are granted parity of esteem, as the Constitution of the Republic stipulates. Thank you.
Deputy Minister, thank you very much for your recommitment to the equality of all the official languages of South Africa. What I would like to know is: Has there, in fact, been done anything to promote indigenous languages other than Afrikaans, which is of course also an indigenous language, on a tertiary level? It seems to me actually quite ingenuous to strip a language of abilities, which it already has, in order to beneficiate, not other indigenous languages, but the colonial language, English.
I would like to know if you would agree that it is maybe a little bit negative that wherever one goes, people seem to leave their own languages behind, in order to communicate with each other in just the single language, which is used for nation-building in South Africa that amounts to ... [Interjections.]
Afrikaans:
Dit lei tot die miskenning van kulture. In plaas van dat die kulture erken word en tot hul reg kom, word hulle misken en ons vra wat die regering in werklikheid gedoen het om te sorg dat die ander tale hulle plek inneem. Dankie.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND
TECHNOLOGY: Thank you very much, ...
Afrikaans:
Ek is vanaf Nylstroom, ...
Mooi man.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND
TECHNOLOGY: ... so I did get that. Firstly, we need to make a distinction between the Constitution treating all languages equally and the equality of all languages. That is very important. As I said in the response, the Afrikaans language is at an advance level in terms of its development, precisely because it has been privileged in the past. Over and above its privilege, there was a deliberate onslaught on the other languages. Therefore, there is a deliberate effort by the department to ensure that we promote all other languages.
Unfortunately, in some instances, there have been institutions that have been deliberate in their intention to sideline all the other languages and to advantage both Afrikaans and English as the preferred medium.
Yes, there are universities such as the University of KwaZulu- Natal that has begun to use Zulu as a language and we are beginning to see most other universities and institutions of learning beginning to experiment with promoting languages. There is a centre at the North-West University, which has been launched late last year and whose intention is the digitisation of all languages, so that we are able to give advantage to all the languages.
The question of which languages are colonial and which are not remains debatable. But, our intention, as the department, and I suppose as a nation, is to ensure that language is not used to further polarise our country and that all languages become an instrument of access to our institutions of learning. [Applause.]
Deputy Minister, I will ask my question in Afrikaans, so if you want to use the translation, you can.
Afrikaans: Meer as die helfte van die agt miljoen inwoners van die Noord- en Wes-Kaap is Afrikaans. Met Stellenbosch Universiteit wat ook sedert 2016 slegs Engels is, bied al vier Kaapse universiteite nou slegs klasse in Engels aan. Gegewe wat u so pas ges het oor insluiting en dat taal nie moet uitsluit nie, waar moet die kinders van hardwerkende plaaswerkers en boere in die Kaap, van wie baie eenvoudig nie Engels kan praat of lees nie, studeer? Of, is die reg op hor onderwys nou amptelik slegs gereserveer vir Engelssprekendes? Dankie.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND
TECHNOLOGY: Without even having the information offhand, I think it will be disingenuous to suggest that non-English speakers who are mainly Afrikaans speakers are disadvantaged in the country, compared to all the other official languages. I think it is very disingenuous. [Interjections.]
English and Afrikaans are still the privileged languages in our institutions. [Interjections.] There is no doubt about that. Even though some of the institutions have moved and become dual medium, they still treat both English and Afrikaans as equal. Those institutions remain open and available to everyone. The contrast is the fact that, in the country, there is yet to be an institution of higher learning whose medium is predominantly or solely Venda, Sepedi, Setswana, Zulu, or any of those languages.
I think that is where we need to take this particular discussion, if you are really interested in inclusivity, which has no bias toward sectarianism, which is what I really think you are promoting. Thank you.
House Chair, Deputy Minister, the irony of the question is that it exclusively singles out Afrikaans amongst other languages, although there is a constitutional injunction that makes all languages equal in the country, to start with. However, has government made a decision on what language is suitable for national and international students that come to our country or institutions of higher learning, and if there is a particular language that government has taken a position on, what would that language be? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND
TECHNOLOGY: There is no preference of any specific language. The intention of our department, and as I said, that should be the intention for all of us, is to promote all languages and the use of all our languages for purposes of learning and teaching in our institutions.
Hon House Chairperson, hon Minister, ...
IsiZulu:
... ngalesi siZulu sami saseGoli ngicela ukubuza ukuthi kulamaviki adlule uMnyango ufikile wasichazela ukuthi kuzoba nomthetho we ...
English:
... indigenous language systems that are being developed.
IsiZulu:
Into esifuna ukuyazi thina ukuthi njengoba sithuthukisa lo mthetho wezinhlelo zezilimi zomdabu. Lungasinceda kanjani ucwaningo nokuthuthukisa izilimi zomdabu ...
English:
... in ensuring that we are able to translate ...
IsiZulu:
... lezi limi zomdabu ...
English: ... into being used for academic purposes in order for us to redress what we are currently finding in the education space? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND
TECHNOLOGY: As I indicated earlier in my responses, we have established a centre at the North-West University. The intention of the centre is to help to digitise all of the indigenous languages, in order for them to be accessible digitally, but also to enable their use for academic purposes. This will help to create a footprint digitally for all languages and therefore make them even more accessible academically.
I think the biggest challenge is the fact that many students come from their high schools and pass Grade 12, having had no access to the main languages that are being used, accept the languages taught at their schools. When they get into higher education institutions, they become deliberately excluded, not physically, not by having the gates shut down, but by the use of language and the fact that language is not accessible academically. What we intend to do, is to make sure that all languages are accessible digitally and therefore able to be used for academic purposes. Question 67:
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS, WATER AND SANITATION: Thank
you very much. Ms Tseki wants to find out from me what is the updated status of the fast-tracking of issuing of title deeds that we promised will be given every Friday and what the details that we have are and the dates. Therefore, my response to that is that in terms of the current powers and functions related to the registrations and the issuance of deeds, the provinces and municipalities are mainly responsible for this. The reason why we took a decision that we are going to fast- track this is because of the backlog that we are experiencing.
The department has worked out a working relationship with provinces and municipalities within the ambit of the Intergovernmental Relations Framework, legislation 13 of 2005, to register and issue title deeds to eligible housing beneficiaries. As from April 2019 to date, these are the statistics that we have per province: those title deeds that belong to the pre-1994 era, the lead in delivering these is the Eastern Cape and the lowest would be from the Western Cape in the delivery of those particular title deeds. However, in title deeds that would have been belonging to the period post- 1994, the lead here is Gauteng that has delivered 7 773 title deeds within one year, and the lowest here would be the Eastern Cape.
In title deeds that they belong to the current period, the lead here is KwaZulu-Natal having delivered 1 371 title deeds and the lowest is Limpopo, North West and the Northern Cape. The total number of title deeds that have been issued in the last few months is 29 000 ensuring that on a regular basis we are able to give these out. Notwithstanding the issues that the department has taken a decision to fast-track this, we are experiencing problems in fast-tracking this. The reason for this as we have discovered that sometimes it is actually finding the owner of the house because usually what happens in an informal transaction is that the owner of the house will not be found in the house. This as you know is illegal. The law makes it very clear that people who are given houses are required to be in their houses for eight years before they hand it over to anybody.
However, this is something that is regularly ignored and we are finding a difficulty in this. Our biggest problem is that sometimes we find that we get to a house and there isn't a clear division in a family over who should own the title deed. The biggest problem here is that we, as a government, cannot intervene in family disputes over the ownership of a house and who to accord the title deed to. We, therefore, going to look at ways or finding legal counsel to assist us make sure that we have these family disputes over title deeds resolved outside of government. And also to assist us to fast-track this, we are going to request the banking sector together with the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, CSIR, to see if we cannot use technology to advance our issue of a title deed.
If now we as a country are able to register a child at birth, it should be possible using the same kind of technology and the same kind of logic to register a house even before it is built. Therefore, knowing ahead of time that the title deeds would belong to, and the title deeds should be given out at the time that the house is handed over. Thank you.
Sepedi:
Ke a leboga, Mudulasetulo.
I'm very sorry; they printed you as Miss. [Laughter.] That's why even the Minister said "Miss" and I'm sorry for that. I apologise on their behalf. Continue, Baba. [Mr]. Sepedi:
Le nna ke be ke re ke tla bolela gore the last time ba ile ba mpollella gore ke ne ke le monna So ke ne ke tshogile gore go go etsagalang
English:
Minister, thank you very much for the response. Noting that the department could not yield on what they projected to do base on reasons that you have already mentioned, is the department going to continue to do developments of human settlements without township establishment or proclaimed townships? Because if there could be proclaimed upfront before the development takes place, this would allow beneficiaries that as they sign their happy letter and they get into those properties with the keys with the title deeds. Can we try by all means to stop developing without proclamation and township establishment?
Xitsonga:
Ndzi khensile.
English:
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS, WATER AND SANITATION: Hon
Tseki, I'm sorry ... Setswana:
... gore ke rile Ms [Moh] go wena, le nna go kwetswe Ms [Moh] mo go nna. Mme ke ne ke ipotsa gore fa ore ba go boleletse gore o monna, gore o bua ka mang yoo ... [Setshego.]
English:
... because that is completely outside the scope of Parliament, my apologies. Yes, hon Tseki, it is our intention to do exactly that and ensure that by the time we provide a house all of these things has been done. Our biggest drawback is that we wait so long for township establishment and by the time we have waited five years and costs have grown up, it really throws most our projections into disarray. However, as I have indicated we are going to be asking the Banking Association of South Africa and the CSIR to assist us to provide us with the technology that will make this possible that when we handover a house we also handover a title deed. Thank you.
IsiXhosa:
Sihlalo weNdlu, eyona nto endifuna ukuyazi mna kuMphathiswa yeyokuba ingaba le ndlela yokunika abantu iziqinisekiso zobunini ilungile kusini na? Andiyiboni iyindlela esa phambili abantu boMzantsi Afrika kuba abantu bathatha ezi ziqinisekisi zobunini baye kuvula amatyala ebhankini. Uye ufumanise ukuba umntu usematyaleni akakwazi ukuphuma kuwo. Eyona ndlela enokuthi isise phambili apha eMzantsi Afrika kukunika abantu umhlaba ukuze bakwazi ukuzenzela izinto zabo. [Kwaqhwatywa.]
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS, WATER AND SANITATION: No,
there was no question. Hon member ...
IsiXhosa:
Lungu elihoniphekileyo, ndiyavumelana nawe, ukuze kulunge kuthi sonke kufuneka sinikezele ngomhlaba khona ukuze abantu bazakhele ngokwabo izindlu zabo. Nangona kuza kubanjalo, umntu kuza kunyanzeleka ukuba abenaso isiqinisekisi sobunini...
English:
... in order to have value to the house.
IsiXhosa:
Ngoko ke nokuba umntu uzakhele okanye wakhelwe indlu, yona indlu ifanele ukuba ibenesiqinisekisi sobunini.
English: The title deed reflects the value of that particular house. So if it is possible for you to go the bank and apply for a home loan to build my own house or to extend or send the kids to school, you can do that.
English:
Title deed means that you are the owner of that particular house. Whether...
IsiXhosa:
... uzakhele okanye wakhelwe ngurhulumente isiqinisekisi sobunini siyafuneka sona. Ukuba nina nifuna ukusincedisa ukuze abantu bazakhele izindlu zabo, ningayenza loo nto namkelekile, singavuya kakhulu.
English:
Thank you. Hon Minister, in many municipalities across the country the legacy of apartheid spatial planning still exists. Let me name one municipality, eThekwini. In this municipality many residents of Mariannridge despite having purchased their previous council own homes some five to 10 years ago have still not received their title deeds. This is because during the apartheid era human settlements were built on land not properly zoned or proclaimed. Now, some 25 years later there still has not been progress for those waiting their title deeds. What intergovernmental relation progress has been made to clear this zoning impediment, and can the Minister confirm or deny that the backlog that was sitting at some 600 000 a few years ago has now climbed back up to one million? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS, WATER AND SANITATION: Thank
you, hon member. Yes, I will agree with you that the apartheid spatial planning is still with us for a very long time and we are trying very hard in our new approach to make sure that we can reverse this way in which we have been living and make sure that we are integrated. When we took on the title of human settlements it was precisely to ensure that there is a difference between housing and human settlements and that human settlement are, indeed, integrated in relation to race, colour and whatever classification there was before. I am not sure that the figure that you have of one million is correct. I would want to find out where you get that statistic from because my statistics I get from Statistics South Africa and they don't get up to a million.
We are having a problem in processing title deeds as I have indicated here, and I have indicated also what it is that we are doing to fast-track this. As I indicated at the beginning of my answer, the responsibility of giving title deeds rest with both the municipality and the province. However, we have come in through the intergovernmental arrangement to ensure that we are able to assist. However, I would like to find out where you get your statistics so that we can check if you are correct. Thank you.
Hon Minister, against the plan's target of
9 421 title deeds transfers across nine provinces for the 2019-20 financial year, but the third quarter only 1 354 have been completed. These ongoing delay is compound the issues based by housing beneficiaries. The pre- emptive clause mandated by the national government stating that housing beneficiaries are not allowed to sell their housing units within the first eight years, meaning that housing beneficiaries are not only excluded from leveraging capital against their homes, but their informal sale of the Breaking New Ground, BNG, house means that the desperate South Africans are selling their houses illegally on the informal market to fund their basic living costs. Will the hon Minister consider adopting the DA's policy overlying beneficiaries to receive full ... [Inaudible.]... immediately upon received of their homes without the prohibited and absolute age exclusion. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS, WATER AND SANITATION: I
think that it is important for the DA to adopt a policy of clarifying her information. They are absolutely out of line all the time with the information that they bring to ... let me repeat, in one year we have given out 29 000 title deeds. What you are asking me has already been answered and I don't know why you are sleeping there. Thank you very much.
Question 59:
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS, WATER AND SANITATION: Hon
Basson, the Vaal River pollution is a problem that has beset us and is proving to be a real crisis in the making. The Deputy President and myself and our members of staff have visited the place twice now. I have visited the place more than six times now to see how we can deal with the problem.
The major problem in the Vaal River is that the Vaal River is a congruence of rivers that flow from Mpumalanga, North West and Free State. They get to the Vaal waste water treatment area and we find that over years with the built up environment, without creating the space for the waste water treatment and without creating the ability to deal with this we are in a serious situation.
We have found that the problem that we have in the Vaal started in 2010 and has been growing over a period of time and as I speak now, out of 44 pumps that should be there only one pump station is working effectively. We are dealing with a serious problem here.
Right now we have had to get in extra support to assist the company that we had put up there to assist us in this matter and if the legislation will allow us, we would like to take over this entity to ensure that national government is responsible for this because the built environment that has come around the Vaal is greater than the capacity of the infrastructure that was provided for it in the initial stage. So, maintenance, continuous maintenance and the capacity to absorb this is lagging behind.
However, I have been heartened by the fact that the community of Vaal has been very willing to provide suggestions and support, the local community have been wanting to get involved in working there and the business community there has been very supportive of us to the extent that they have been able to withdraw seven law suits that they had against us. So, we are working together with the community there to ensure that all the problems that we are experiencing in this particular area are fixed at the earliest possible time. Thank you.
Minister, although I have also asked the cost that it would take to clean up the river, you haven't answered on that. Minister, compliance monitoring in enforcement of polluters does not exist in your department. Raw and past retreated sewage is a major pollutant of the Vaal which creates serious health risks, Minister what are the drastic steps that you are going to take to enforce that the polluter must pay principle and withdraw licenses of municipalities guilty of polluting our rivers?
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS, WATER AND SANITATION: Hon
Basson you know very well that what you're saying is not true. It does exist in our regulation. You, yourself congratulated us when we took one of the municipalities to court for polluting the river. So, you cannot now stand up and say it does not exist. It does exist.
In this particular case, it is not just a pollution, it is the breaking down of maintenance that has been in place over a long period of time and because we are serving more than one province and because we have outgrown the infrastructure that you put in, in 1902, we have grown by bounds since then because it did not occur to you that African people will be living near you, you did not make provision for the kind of people that live there right now. The infrastructure is unable to cope with what we have on the ground and I'll tell you what the cost is. You asked me what the cost is, the expenditure up to date has been R189 million.
Sepedi:
Ke a leboga. Tona, batho ba borena, Transvaal ka bophara, go t?welela le gona kua go boMpumalanga, ba nwa meetse a dit?hila; Meetse a a t?wa Vaal River. Jwale re be re nyaka go tseba gore ke eng le tlo go se dira go t?wela pele gore taba ye e rarollwe.ka bonakonako; le gore naa go tlo diragala neng. Ka baka la gore meetse a a dit?hila a hlola kotsi mo maphelong a bona. Jwale re be re kgopela gore o re fetole gore ke eng seo o tlogo se dira ka bonakonako gore re rarolle taba ye ya meetse.
Sesotho:
LETONA LA BODULO BA BATHO, METSI LE TLHWEKO: Sotho se
hlomphehang, ntho e nkentseng hore ke eme mona ke arabe ke hore ke amehile haholo ka hore batho ba rona ba tlameha ho fumana metsi a hlwekileng. Ntho e ke e hlalosang ke hore, ha re ne re aha mona Vaal le dibaka tsena tseding kaofela, ha re ka ba ra ela hloko hore tshebeletso ya motheo wa rona ha e ya re lekana.
English:
Our infrastructure only meant for those people who lived there at that particular time and we have grown. The Vaal area and the surrounding areas and the fact that we have taking on waste matter from four different provinces overtime, it has been very difficult to maintain the system.
Sesotho:
Re ntse re tshwarehile ka yona ntho ena jwalo ka ha ke ntse ke tjho hore re etsa bonnete ba hore re ya e hlwekisa hore batho ba rona batlo fumana metsi a hlwekileng. Nka thabela hore le tle le lona le tlo hlwekisa moo, le bontshe hore diofarolo tsena tsa lona ka nnete di a le lekana. [Laughter]
English:
So, I'll be very grateful for your support to come and clean up the Vaal River. Thank you. MR A M SHAIK EMAM: Minister, speaking of pollution, if you take the Paarl area in the Western Cape, and I have a sample for you of the water that our people living in those farms and those farming areas are expected to drink. And, if you see that, you will clearly see the conditions that our people have to live in.
Does national government have the due authority to be able to deal with provincial government to address the challenges that the people face, particularly with the poor quality water which is contaminated and many of those toilets in those public places that are not functioning, the doors are closed and there is no water. It's an absolute mess and if you look at the condition, it is horrendous under which our people are supposed to be living. Can government intervene in these matters at a national level?
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS, WATER AND SANITATION: Thank
you very much hon Shaik. Yes, I did indicate in my response that the problem that we are experiencing is that the responsibility over this area rests with the municipality and the province. This is the situation that we have. We want to put to you legislation that will allow us to overwrite that so that we can take over the problems that the Western Cape is unable to solve and ensuring that our people have clean water.
They are very quick to point out when they find other provinces are responsible for water that is not clean. Not only are they polluting water, they are not even providing water to their workers.
IsiZulu:
Sihlalo,...
English:
In light of the current water shortages and the need to maximise water efficiency, I would like to know from you whether you have been engaging with various municipalities to advise them of the services and budget offered to municipalities in order to ensure that their major dams have been cleaned and are free from pollution.
IsiZulu:
Singalindelanini kulolu daba lwaseMfuleni wase-Vaal ukuthi umklamo lo owenziwayo laphaya uphele ukuze abantu bakithi bakhululeke ezifweni, zingaze zithathe izimpilo zabo. Ngiyathokoza kakhulu kunina beSilo?