Hon Ellis, I do not think it is right for a member to dictate, saying this should not be done and that should, because what the hon member Malale was doing was not debating with the person he was talking about, as you are saying and as the hon Van der Merwe said - he said he was debating with him. He was just referring to a person who is here in the House; he was not debating with him. [Interjections.]