So, what do we say? To sum up, what do we say? What does the ANC say and what does this government say? Firstly, we say that the state must be deliberately interventionist. [Applause.] It must not dodge the issue. A government must govern and the state must intervene. [Interjections.] That is the lesson of the mixed economies of China, India, Brazil, etc. And so we say the state must intervene.