Can I also say that the point that the Leader of the Opposition made, just before he ended, about the constitutional democracy, is an interesting point. We must analyse it. Is there a strategy to say we do not want to be part of a national agenda in terms of the various spheres of governance - national, provincial and local - performance-managed?
In fact, it is interesting that we hear the premier speaking about something else in the national Cabinet engagements, and then we are seeing something different in the space here. And therefore, what is taking place?
Also, I want to say to hon member Shilowa - who has just left - speaking about accountability here, we do know that there is much to be answered for when it comes to accountability and delivery in Gauteng.
Let me go back, therefore, to say that as the ANC we are very supportive of this debate, and we believe that the debate should be dealing with the real issues. And the real issues for us currently involve the bureaucracy.
As we are moving forward, hon Minister, as you roll out the monitoring and evaluation in government, will the bureaucracy and the state machinery align themselves into that space? That is something that I believe needs a fundamental reskilling. So that is one area.
Another area is in fact dealing with what we define as the activist role of Parliament. As the government will be moving into communities, as an activist Parliament, we will have to be able to position ourselves also to make sure that the oversight role of monitoring, the oversight role of performance and the oversight role of implementation are being dealt with.
The second-last point: There is a notion that we are dealing a lot with surveys. So we can easily say what the percentage of unemployed people in this country is, we can talk about the percentage of poor people in this country. But we don't always know, Minister, who they are, where they are staying, what levels of skills they have, what delivery opportunities are there, and what I would suggest ... [Interjections.]