Deputy Chair, hon members of the NCOP and special delegates from provinces, the National Land Transport Transition Act came into effect in the year 2000, and all spheres of our government began to implement it. Part 7 of the Act only came into effect on 1 June 2002, after the transport planning minimum requirements and guidelines had been developed by the Department of Transport to guide all provinces and local spheres on transport planning.
The National Land Transport Transition Act was a major step in the transformation of public transport in the history of our country and was enacted as a response to the many challenges, weaknesses, inefficiencies and problems confronting public transport in South Africa. It sought to establish a coherent and development-orientated approach to public transport, drawing from all spheres of government.
The main feature of the National Land Transport Transition Act is its requirement for municipal, provincial and national transport planning to be the basis on which all future public transport operating licences are awarded to operators, thus making public transport demand responsive, rather that supply-driven.
Some of the issues raised in these amendments are very urgent, to enable us to implement the taxi recapitalisation programme. In this particular regard, may I express my appreciation to the National Council of Provinces for the way in which the Bill's passage has been expedited during the current parliamentary cycle. The Bill, as we know, seeks to give national, provincial and local spheres of government effective regulatory and practical mechanisms to fast-track the transformation and improvements, while also putting safety measures in place for the benefit of all users.
Amongst other things, the following are the key issues that the amending Bill seeks to address: One, to simplify the transport planning framework; two, to make provision for the new taxi vehicle sizes, in line with the taxi recapitalisation process, to improve safety in the taxi industry; three, to rationalise functions of the Minister, the MECs, registrars and the operating licence boards; four, to regulate the conveyance of our people on adapted or modified light delivery vehicles, the LDVs, metered taxis and tourist service vehicles.
On this point, experiences on the ground in certain areas have dictated a need to regulate the conveyance of people on LDVs to ensure passenger safety. The proposed amending Bill proposes interventions to ensure that passengers in remote and resource-poor areas have access to mobility and are transported in a safe and humane manner while in the short to medium term infrastructure is being improved to cater for mainstream public transport. Lastly, to extend the subsidised contract period from five to seven years to support small, medium and micro enterprises and broad-based black economic empowerment operators.
The proposed National Land Transport Transition Act amendments represent a very significant intervention towards fast-tracking the effective planning, delivery and safety regulation of our public transport transformation in South Africa. Once promulgated into law, these amendments will give relevant authorities enabling frameworks and the necessary environment to fast-track the implementation of key projects such as the taxi recapitalisation project, and to effectively regulate the public transport system in order to ensure that it is sustainable, user-friendly and playing its desired role as the heartbeat of the South African economy.
I have, in a nutshell, outlined some of the critical challenges that we must urgently address with the proposed amending Bill to the National Land Transport Transition Act. I look forward to a constructive debate and will respond accordingly to other issues as they arise, emanating from this debate. I thank you. [Applause.]
Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, special delegates from provinces, comrades, once more, in less than a month, we engage in a very important debate under this particular portfolio of transport. This debate is not only important, but critical in that this Bill or piece of legislation before this House stands to transform the lives of our people radically for the better.
For a very long time our people have been calling on us as legislators and government to do something about their plight on our roads. For a very long time we have seen the public transport system being an issue for debate by our people, and calls have been made for government to do something about it.
As we said in the last debate on the Budget Vote for Transport, not only is transport the heartbeat of the South African economy, but also of the social sustenance of our people. Our people use transport for various reasons other than just going to work, ie for active participation in our economy. They use public transport to go to education centres, for business travel, to go on holiday, and migrant workers use it to build families at the end of work seasons.
Of the last-mentioned category, which represents 18% of the South African workforce, about 500 000 workers who travel back home at the end of work seasons regularly use public transport. A total of 74% of the trips are made by taxi and 18% by bus.
We have heard many questions being asked by the very same users of our public transport regarding affordability, safety, comfort and friendliness during travel. It has been reported that our public transport system, as it stands today, is the most unreliable, unsafe and uncomfortable to use, especially our taxis. This state of affairs is quite worrying in that the 2003 national household travel survey key results point out, and I quote:
There are approximately 3,9 million public transport commuters. The 2,5 million taxi commuters account for over 63% of public transport work trips. Bus services account for another 22% of public transport commuters and the balance are carried to work by train. In addition to the 2,5 million commuters who use minibus taxis as their main mode of travel, there are another 325 000 commuters who use taxis either as a feeder mode to other public transport services, or as a distribution service from the main mode to their places of work.
With this kind of scenario, it is quite disturbing to have a situation in which almost half of the taxi passengers and a third of the bus passengers are dissatisfied with the overall quality of service. This, of course, is attributed to a lack of facilities at bus stops, crowding on buses and low frequency at peak hour. Coupled with this is safety from taxi accidents, lack of facilities at ranks and lack of roadworthiness of vehicles. Therefore, it is once more the ANC that is responding to the needs and the cry of our people by introducing this piece of legislation.
It is this piece of legislation that will see to the transformation of the public transport regime, a regime that has for many years been open to only a few operators who, in their own opinion, are bosses of the road. They determine the routes and the fares. They even determine who gets a permit and how much the person must pay in order to get a permit to operate on that particular route, arguing that they started the routes.
This piece of legislation before us will, in actual fact, open the industry to all South Africans who have an interest to venture into this so-called "closed industry". With this regime change our people will be better positioned to have their interests well taken care of.
The introduction of the new vehicles to transport our people, fitted with the required safety equipment and thereby adhering to the transport plans, will curb illegal taxis from operating on our roads. We will see to the stabilisation of this particular industry.
We have also noted the fact that most of our people use taxis as a means of transport. However, the fare regime has not been in their favour, because the subsidy system has been in favour of the buses, which, according to a survey, only account for 18% of the passengers.
For the first time my younger sister will be able to board a taxi to work, without carrying an extra blouse in her bag, because she is afraid that the taxi's door will tear the one she has on. For the first time, she will get to work without being worried about not having the correct taxi fare because it has gone up that particular morning.
For the first time, she will be able to get to work on time because the taxi will not have broken down, and will not get an apology for the inconvenience of an old skorokoro taxi. For the first time, she will be able to get to work sitting comfortably, without being squeezed like a sardine.
After passing this piece of legislation I will go to bed knowing definitely that at least my child's transport is fitted with all the necessary equipment to get her to school safely. I know that with the passing of this piece of legislation I will hear less about the number of children that died whilst being transported to school in unsafe and unroadworthy bakkies in KwaZulu-Natal, the Eastern Cape, Mpumalanga, etc.
Once more, through this piece of legislation, the poor and workers will feel more protected as they move from one area to another, whether it is to work, to the nearest clinic, school, shopping place or sports ground. Given the public hearings that were held throughout our country and provinces, and the resultant support for the Bill, concerns raised will be addressed in the process of finalisation and implementation of the Bill.
In supporting the Bill, the select committee calls upon all relevant stakeholders to support this Bill because it is quite an important instrument, not only in terms of words or sayings, but, in actual fact, in terms of action.
We know for a fact that not all the issues that were raised during the public hearings will find space. However, the committee is sure that most of the issues that affect particular people directly and negatively will be incorporated in the Bill. Nevertheless, we regard this as a process that would lead us in the right direction. On behalf of the Select Committee on Public Services, I call upon the House to support the Bill. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, in addressing this House with one arm - as I am doing now - on this Bill, which has been tagged as a section 76 Bill, I should simply express the mandate of my province, because in the end it will be the provinces that will be voting for this Bill - as they have been called upon to do by the hon chairperson of the select committee.
Indeed, I am in possession of a mandate signed by the Speaker of the Mpumalanga Legislature, dated 6 June, but it is unfortunately not quite that simple. The truth is that Rule 32 (1) of the rules of my province, Mpumalanga, determines that unless otherwise provided by an Act of Parliament contemplated in section 65(2) of the Constitution, authority to cast votes on behalf of the province shall be conferred by way of resolution of the legislature within the timeframes required by the NCOP. All mandates conferred have to be approved by the House, in the same way that the mandate to reject the Older Persons Bill was handled yesterday.
The problem is, of course, that no such vote was taken in regard to this mandate, and I've scrutinised all the Minutes and all the documents since 2 June. So, the legislature in my province, which I can speak for, certainly did not authorise the mandate, which I'm sure the province would vote for. We all know that the real mandate comes from Shell House. But that's not making a wrong right. In fact ... [Interjections.]
On a Point of Order, Chairperson: I think it is important that this House should not be misled, because the reality of the matter is that we do not know if that reference to Shell House is intended as a reference to the ANC - that should be clarified. Where or what is this Shell House that this hon member is talking about where a mandate then comes from?
Madam Chair, it is common knowledge that Shell House refers to the ANC; the headquarters of the ANC.
No. Thank you, hon Watson you are wrong. There's no Shell House. [Interjections.] Will you withdraw "Shell House".
I will withdraw Shell House, but ... I will withdraw it, but I won't pay its rent.
In terms of the rule of law, which my party feels very strongly about, I cannot convey the mandate that I have in writing because it is in fact illegal. I have no doubt that my province and many others will vote for it, but that doesn't make it good. However important the recapitalisation programme is and however well it was window-dressed by both the Minister and the hon chairperson, this is still bad legislation and it will actually impact on Asgisa. In terms of the tourism programme portrayed in Asgisa ... [Interjections.]
On a Point of Order: The hon member said these things had been window-dressed. Can he just explain what he means by that, because it was never window-dressed?
I said it was bad legislation. It is a little bit like cutting and pasting of an already transitional Bill, which, in fact, is the transition of an existing Bill, and contains actual inaccuracies. In the Bill reference is made to consultation with the portfolio committee of the National Assembly. This Bill has not even gone to the National Assembly, so no consultation has taken place in regard to these amendments that are now before the House.
In my own province, when I did the briefing to the province, the Department of Transport officials were there. And when they were questioned by the chairperson of our portfolio committee in our province, they confirmed that consultation only took place within the department. No outside consultation took place. Hurriedly three sessions were arranged for consultation with the public and stakeholders, but on the same day and at the same time and, as expected, one of these sessions had no attendance whatsoever.
So, I'm saying again that we are stuck here with bad legislation; legislation that will impact negatively on the tourism of our country, which is based more or less here in Cape Town and in Gauteng, the gateways of South Africa as far as tourism is concerned.
I am happy to see that at least Gauteng and KwaZulu-Natal couldn't see their way clear to giving mandates. The Western Cape - and I saw it myself - made a submission of 17 pages. I see very little of it in the amendments that have now been approved and are before you. So, I reiterate my concern ... [Interjections.]
On a Point of Order: Once more, Chairperson, I appeal that hon Watson should withdraw the statement that Gauteng did not submit a final negotiating mandate. As chairperson of the select committee, I'm sitting with a final mandate from Gauteng and, therefore, I think that it is important that, on a consistent basis, hon Watson should be cautioned not to ... [Interjections.] ... in any case, he's wasting lots of time, because I can't finish. I have to wait to listen to him.
I'm sure that Gauteng can speak for themselves - I see they are on the speakers' list. But as of yesterday ... [Interjections.]
Hon Watson, I do have a letter with regard to Gauteng.
I did say that they can speak for themselves. But as of yesterday, I was unable to obtain from the committee secretary any form of final mandate. But I return to my point on the Western Cape, which had made a submission of 17 pages - and that was substantial amendments proposed to a Bill that has no political content. It is a Bill that should be amended in the interest of our country and in the interest of Asgisa, which is a programme of the Presidency, and a Bill which we now have to leave to the National Assembly's portfolio committee to do the right thing.
I'm sure that - and I believe that many of the members would in private agree - we are fervently hoping that the National Assembly will do the right thing. We hope that they will investigate this Bill properly, that they will have proper public hearings and that this Bill will not be steamrolled through Parliament by the department - and that eventually they will come back to us in a form that we can finally accept. I thank you, Madam Chairperson. [Applause.]
Hon Watson, I want to correct you. The headquarters of the ANC is Luthuli House, not Shell House. It has not had a name change.
Ja, dis 'n moeilike affre hierdie. Ek weet nie of die agb Watson hom al ooit van punt A na punt B in 'n taxi bevind het nie, en ek dink dis as gevolg daarvan dat hy hierdie houding ingeneem het, om liewer oor toerisme te praat as oor die vervoer van ons mense in die hele Suid- Afrika. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Rev P MOATSHE: Yes, this is a difficult matter. I do not know whether the hon Watson has ever travelled from point A to point B in a taxi, and I think that as a result of this, he has adopted this approach of speaking about tourism rather than about the transport of our people in the whole South Africa.]
I think this Bill is long overdue and it cannot be delayed unless we live in a different world and not in South Africa. Our people are dying because this industry has not been regulated. Only a few people have been regulating it in the way that they want. One place differs from the other. The main aim of this Bill is to regulate so that there is uniformity in the entire country for the safety of our people.
Maybe it is because we live in two worlds. The other world does not use taxis. They are quite capable of using their cars because they are rich. There are people who do not have any means of transport and who depend solely on the taxis, the buses. That is why there is this outcry that the taxis should also be subsidised. Obviously I think, hon member, we are talking from different perspectives.
In spite of the fact that provinces would have loved to have more public hearings, obviously those provinces that took the matter seriously had their public hearings. That is why we as a select committee received the appropriate submissions by these provinces. I don't think what the hon member said here carries much weight. How do you equate this with tourism? I think in the tourism field things are fine. There are no skoroskoro [rickety] taxis in the field of tourism. They are on our roads. They are unlicensed, and so on.
This government wants to take a positive step so that these correctional measures are taken. Therefore, this Council will have to support the Bill or are we still living in two worlds? Do we still have two South Africas? I can't believe it. At this point in time we should understand what the dynamics and the challenges are that we are facing.
The transport sector in any economy, no matter how big or small, determines to a large extent the pulse rate of that economy. Our country is no exception. The role of transport as an input sector in the economy is critical and requires extensive and sustainable investment in all its facets. Moreover, given the crucial role it has to play in the second economy, further investment is required in the public transport sector to ensure the transformation of the current commuter system to an integrated public transport system. This should serve the entire South African society, particularly focusing on improving efficiency in the transport services in urban areas and extending services to the previously disadvantaged and rural areas.
The Department of Transport's obligations are underpinned by the constitutional and legislative mandates. Thus it places great responsibility on the department to ensure sustainable, reliable, safe and efficient movement of people and goods. This, we believe, is the pursuit locally, on the continent and internationally, by means of a transport system that responds to the needs of the integrated first and second economies. Therefore, we are entrusted with the responsibility to ensure that the Department of Transport discharges its obligations sincerely in regard to the challenges of economic growth, social cohesion and poverty alleviation.
It is indeed incumbent upon the department to encourage participation in socioeconomic activities over the broadest possible spectrum. Our concerns as the ANC are highlighted by the comprehensive national household services survey of 2003 that canvassed 50 000 people countrywide. This survey revealed extremely high levels of dissatisfaction about lack of safety, security on trains and affordability amongst our people. It shows that a large percentage of South Africans spend more than 10% of their income and in some instances even more than 20% on public transport. This is seriously disconcerting. What the survey also shows is that our people are very passionate and equally angry about the state of public transport.
Which brings us to the Bill before us today. The provision of safe, affordable, accessible intermodal public transport is envisaged as a key objective in our major policy documents, notably, "Moving South Africa", in the Action Agenda. Although the Bill is wide-ranging in terms of the scope of the amendment, it seeks to give expression to some of the imperatives spelled out in this policy document.
In this regard, sections 7 and 8 provide for the Minister to prepare, on an annual basis and in consultation with the MECs, a five-year National Land Transport Strategic Framework for the country. In addition, the Minister is also statutorily bound to update the National Land Transport Strategic Framework. This we believe will not only rectify some of the complexities associated with planning and co-ordinating, but it is also more realistic than the previous provision of updating every year. Moreover, in section 10, the question of transport across provincial boundaries and areas of planning authorities is addressed through the provision for integrated transport plans. This amendment is necessitated by, for example, the operation of particularly tourist buses across provincial boundaries.
Let us support this Bill. It is long overdue. Our people out there are waiting. Thank you. [Time expired.]
Asikuvume lokhu ukuthi lengane njengoba bengike ngasho ngathi isencane kodwa yathi uma sekufanele ikhase kwangena isifo yase igula. Kwase kudinga ukuthi kwelashwe leso sifo njengoba senza lezi zichibiyelo namnlanje, ngokolimi lwabeziwe lokhu kwaziwa nge-amendemnt. Kuyabonakala-ke ukuthi lezi zichibiyelo zizosisiza mhlawumbe ukuthi lengane ikwazi ukusukuma igijime. Ngakho-ke i-IFP ithi, cha, ake siyinike ithuba lengane icathule bese sibona ukuthi izogijima na? Uma isigijima izozifeza izidingo na?
Bengingathanda kodwa uNgqongqoshe akathi ukuchaza laphayana kubagibeli abahlanganisa ukuhamba ngemoto eyodwa ukuya emsebenzini ukuthi awuzukusidalela izinkinga na ngenxa yemizila yamatekisi, ngoba iyonanto eyinkinga kubantu bamatekisi uma kuzoba khona abagibeli abazohlanganisa ukuhamba ngemoto eyodwa ukuya emsebenzini besebenzisa imizila yamatekisi. Nokho-ke ngithi, cha, unwele olude. Ake siyinike indlela lengane ihambe. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu speech follows.) [Mr M A MZIZI: Let us agree that this child, as I have said, is still small, and when he was supposed to start crawling, he contracted a disease and fell ill. Then, that disease had to be cured, which is why we are making these amendments today; what is called "amendments" in English. It is clear that these amendments will help so that this child can get up and run. Therefore, the IFP is of the view that we need to give this child the opportunity to crawl, and then see if he can run. Is he going to meet the set objectives when he is up and running?
I would, however, like the hon Minister to give clarity on whether the lift club that uses one vehicle to and from work is not going to cause problems for us because of taxi routes. The problem with taxi owners is that they will not allow lift club vehicles to use taxi routes. I wish to say: Long live! Let us give right of way to this child so that he can walk. [Applause.]]
Thank you, Chair. Minister, hon members, I greet you all. Yes, I agree with the hon member Watson, who said that we didn't deal with the politics of the Bill. We dealt with the Bill because we think that it is long overdue. We are supposed to deal with the issues at hand.
The comments from the Western Cape include the comments received from the provincial Department of Transport and Public Works, and SATSA and SABAWU. It is understood that the proposed Bill deals only with what the national Department of Transport considered as urgent, in order to enable the effective implementation of the Act, and to incorporate the changes required by the taxi recapitalisation programme.
The Western Cape wishes to make comments as follows: Firstly, the comments on proposed amendments suggesting a redraft of the amending Bill are provided. Secondly, the comments on issues to be incorporated in the substantial redraft of the National Land Transport Transition Act are also provided. The full document of comments has been forwarded to the Department of Transport and is available for distribution.
With regard to the comments on the amending Bill, I wish to highlight some of the more significant comments, namely, clause 1 (b), (c) and (d). A new definition is suggested for the seating capacity for a minibus, midibus and bus. These definitions are in conflict with the definitions in the Road Traffic Act, Act 93 of 1996, and we should withdraw the traffic regulations in this Act.
It is recommended that the capacity definition of the bus, minibus and midibus in the Road Traffic Act and its regulations be removed from the Act, and instead, the definitions of these vehicles be lodged in the NLTTA with the necessary cross-references. It is also recommended that the definition of a metered taxi should be amended in the Bill, to be consistent with the definition of the other vehicle types, by increasing the maximum number of seated persons from fewer than 9 to 10 persons.
Secondly, clause 5(a), (c), (e) and (f) suggests the deletion of the current plan, which is the current public transport record and the operating licence strategy, the rationalisation plan and the public transport plan, and their incorporation into a single intergrated transport plan (ITP). However, with the deletion of the current statutory plan, the guidelines for the ITPs are presumably also removed from the statute, and will need to be replaced. It is recommended therefore that the new comprehensive regulations on transport planning are published, in order to coincide with the promulgation of the Bill.
Clauses 5(d), 6(b) and 10(a) suggest that only those authorities that are requested by the MEC to do so are requested to prepare ITPs and to make recommendations to the licensing board. It is recommended therefore that all planning authorities must prepare ITPs and must make recommendations to the board.
Clause 13 suggests the type of vehicles that may be used in the public transport service. There is no provision for vehicle types with a passenger capacity of less than 11 seated persons, including the driver, thus eliminating the metered taxis and certain other categories, such as small tourism vehicles, from being able to obtain operating licences. It is therefore recommended that a category be introduced to allow for vehicles carrying up to 10 persons, including the driver.
Clause 18 imposes technical standards for brakes on vehicles used for long distance public transport operations. It is considered and recommended that such safety specifications should rather be lodged in the Road Traffic Act and its regulations. Clause 19 imposes certain restrictions on replacement vehicles.
It is agreed that any vehicle primarily used for regular planned public transport, should be replaced by a vehicle of the same passenger capacity, as specified in the operating licence. However, this does not apply to tourism vehicles, which are produced in different seating capacities, depending on the manufacturer's specifications.
When a tour bus is replaced, it may be replaced by a slightly smaller or larger vehicle, which should allow for the discretion of the vehicle operator. Thus it is considered that a latitude of 20% smaller or larger, in relation to the vehicle being replaced, should be provided for.
Clause 20 allows the MEC to set the fares of metered taxis without consultation with the municipalities. It is considered that consultation should be extended to the municipality concerned, as they, being planning authorities, may have policies in their transport plans with regard to the fares and prices of the public transport services.
Clause 21 attempts to regulate tourism services. It is considered that no benefit will be gained by requiring a tourist board or a similar body to give recommendations to the board on operating licence applications. Tourism bodies are concerned with the tourism market and have little knowledge of supply and demand for tourism transport vehicles. It is therefore recommended that the entire section 21 be omitted from the Bill.
There are two issues that are not covered in the amending Bill which, in the opinion of the Western Cape, are also urgent and should be included. It is considered that the administration of the minibus taxi recapitalisation processes require better-defined legislation and linkage with the transport plan. Little appears in the NLTTA besides the provisions of section 31, which only provides the definition of the vehicle size. It is considered that the programmes, which are likely to cost in the order of R7 billion or more and which will occur over a period of some years, should have detailed legislation on how it should be administered.
There are complex administration processes in this process to roll out the recapitalisation that will also involve the provinces, requiring a consistency of approach and properly managed financial procedures. It is therefore recommended that a new section should be added to the Act, which requires that each vehicle for which an operating licence has been issued, must be subjected to a roadworthy inspection every six months. This should be conducted by the registered testing centre within seven days of the anniversary of the renewal of the vehicle licence, and repeated every six months after this date.
The original certificate of roadworthiness must be held in the vehicle so that it can be furnished to an authorised officer, failing which it is considered an offence and the operating licence is invalid. The more significant comments on the substantial overhaul of the NLTTA include that fundamental changes take place in the legislation to provide for tourism transport.
The following are other significant comments. The definition of courtesy service should be amended so as to require contracted services to be in possession of an operating licence. A new section should be developed to administer and set rules for the operation of lift clubs. As long as the responsibility for different public transport services, by different authorities, persists, an alternative to the constitution of the Transport Authority Act should be developed.
A new provision for temporary operating licences should be developed to better define conditions under which these permits are granted. The operating licences are not considered as property or a right and all such licences lapse after a defined period. The need for operating licences should be initiated by the planning authorities in terms of their transport plans, and not by the service providers or taxi associations.
The right of the board to make decisions without the recommendation of the planning authorities should be removed. The requirement that minibus taxi operators must be members of associations should be relaxed a little bit. The emphasis placed on the role of the association as being a key institutional component of the public transport system should be diminished. The Registrar should be responsible for accrediting the applicants.
I thank you, Chairperson. The Western Cape fully supports the Bill, but with the amendments that we have provided. [Applause.]
Hon Chair, hon Minister and the members of the House, good afternoon. As the Eastern Cape we participated throughout the process and hence we feel confident that we want to support the Bill without any reservations.
The people of the Eastern Cape welcome the passing of the National Land Transport Transition Amendment Bill, especially the change in policy regarding the use of bakkies as modes of transport or the use of other lightweight vehicles. The Bill manages to capture the difficulties endured by the majority of the people of the Eastern Cape, viz the inaccessibility and shortage of public transport.
As a province, when we got an electoral mandate, we had to provide fast, reliable, secure, accessible transport and hence we feel that this is a progressive Bill. That is why we are not reluctant to support it.
Public transport is inaccessible because of a lack of road infrastructure and operators are reluctant to use their conventional taxis, hence the use of bakkies or LDVs on our roads. The stakeholders welcomed the passenger safety aspect expressed and implied by the Bill as a non-negotiable necessity.
The survey of 2000 revealed that most people in the Eastern Cape walk long distances and others depend on public transport, especially in the form of bakkies or LDVs. The LDVs' owners expressed concern with regard to the application of the Act, especially with regard to the standards contemplated in the Bill. They are concerned about the conversion costs which may exceed the operating costs, and the question is who is going to carry that cost. That is the question we want to put to the Minister today, because we feel that that needs to be answered.
We are not, therefore, suggesting any recapitalisation of bakkies but such assistance needs to be forthcoming. The people of the province accept the passing of the Bill as it seeks to make their lives better and recognises that much work still needs to be done to make public transport safe, accessible and inexpensive.
The portfolio committee on roads and transport of the Eastern Cape provincial legislature is pleased about the passing of this Bill because of the recent events in the province that highlighted the conveyance of passengers for profit in lightweight vehicles.
The reality on the ground is that the lack of roads in rural areas and also in some urban areas makes the use of bakkies the most viable option. The people who suffer most from the lack of road infrastructure and public transport are the poorest in the province and this makes the Bill even more important than its technical significance of making bakkies comply with the law.
There is a concern, Minister, with regard to the understanding that this transitional Act is for a period of between five and seven years. We welcome that but the issue is: how are we going to monitor the maintenance of roads or even the surfacing of roads so that they comply for that particular period, to ensure that the utilisation of these bakkies has a lifespan limited to this particular period.
It is public knowledge that in provinces like the Eastern Cape it is not only about the roads, but also about the road infrastructure. We talk about bridges because there are areas where some of those bridges were swept away by the rains and as a result we need some pledges. It is a pity that the Minister of Finance has left because one would have wanted to know, with regard to the division of revenue, whether there is really a commitment from the national government to provide money that will fit the occasion. This will ensure that the time span that is allocated here will really be met by the province because of the infrastructural backlogs.
The committee is pleased that vehicles that carry between two and nine passengers are going to be permitted. In a vast province like ours, such a provision is needed because not all transport conditions are the same. I am talking here as someone representing areas where you would wait all day if vehicles that transport 11 or 36 or even 48 passengers were to be utilised, because we know what the mentality of our people is. If the taxi is not full it means that it won't travel that particular day. The committee also welcomes the fact that the Bill encourages our public transport to be safer by complying with minimum safety regulations, though we are pleased that the brake to aspect has been removed from the last version of the Bill. However, this shows that a lot of work still needs to be done to ensure that every operator complies with the regulations. The affordability factor of the conversion of the bakkie is worrying, because most of the operators in the province will struggle to acquire such modified vehicles and maintain them in the process.
The committee is satisfied that the Bill will achieve its intended purpose and encourages the Department of Transport to do more in addressing land transport inadequacies. We feel that if all that could be implemented we will walk the talk and better the lives of our people.
Chairperson, perhaps I must not address myself to hon Watson because I think he must have been on some fishing expedition. I might waste my time addressing myself to him, but suffice it to say that my province engaged thoroughly in the processing of this Bill. We did have public hearings on 19 May, and the attendance was very good, with many participants - except for the taxi organisations. We did discuss our mandate in the committee and adopted it and it was also adopted in the House last week on Thursday.
I will come back to the issues that were raised in the public hearings but as Gauteng we think that the passing of this Bill could not have come at a better time than this. It is being passed when the province has placed public transport at the centre of development in the province.
As we speak, the province is engaged in the adoption of an integrated public transport strategy approach. This process is involved in the spirit of Gauteng being a globally competitive city region. All 50 municipalities in the province have reached agreement around the strategy that Gauteng should have a single transport authority that will be established in January 2007.
The public transport strategy cannot be discussed outside the taxi recap because, as other speakers have said, the majority of commuters in our country use taxis to reach their destinations. Whilst the killings in taxis are no longer in the news and the newspaper headlines, these still continue to afflict the industry. The TRP will ensure that the killings in the taxi industry become a thing of the past.
As a province, which was severely affected by the killings that followed the Satawu strike, we saw that as a setback to us, because people will move away from public transport, if such things do occur.
What is also happening in the province is that last year the province held a commuter indaba, which was attended by more than 1 000 delegates. We think this indaba was very important because it brought together commuters from rail, taxis and buses into one forum. One of the resolutions taken by the commuter indaba was that a provincial commuter organisation must be launched in the province, which is going to happen this year.
The province is also engaged in the construction of the Gautrain. I think the Minister of Finance spoke about it. The concept of the Gautrain has evolved and developed from the one that was envisioned in 2001. The Gautrain will now be integrated into the broader public transport plan in the province.
Our province, Gauteng, will have no problem in dealing with the challenges of hosting a very successful World Cup in 2010, less than four years from now. At least, three stadiums that were earmarked for use during the 2010 World Cup are in the province. The province is engaged in projects around this, which are going to link the Johannesburg International Airport to the city, improving the signage and building other roads.
Tomorrow we will start to engage, in the province, with the discussion plans for public transport month, which will take place in September, together with Car Free Day. Whilst we know that public transport is not ready for these challenges, we as a province want to make our people conscious of the issue of public transport.
I think some of the issues that were raised in the public hearings have been raised here, but none of them caused us to change any of the clauses of the Bill. So, the province would like to support the Bill without any amendment. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mnr die Voorsitter, agb Minister, agb kamerade en lede, die skrywer John Berger, wenner van die Booker-prys, skryf oor Antonio Gramsci en definieer sy besondere vermons soos volg: Die mins dogmatiese denker oor revolusie wat hierdie eeu opgelewer het, was Antonio Gramsci. Sy gebrek aan dogmatisme spruit uit 'n soort geduld. Hierdie geduld het absoluut niks te make met traagheid of selfgenoegsaamheid nie. Sy besondere geduld spruit uit 'n praktyksin wat nooit tot 'n einde kom nie. Hy het dinge van naby bekyk en het soms rigting gegee aan die politieke stryd van sy tyd, maar hy het nooit vergeet wat die agtergrond was van die ontwikkelende drama waarvan die reikwydte oor onberekenbare eeue heen strek nie. Dit was miskien wat verhoed het dat Gramsci, soos baie revolusionre, 'n millennialis geword het. Hy het geglo in hoop eerder as beloftes, en hoop is 'n lang storie.
Hierdie verstandigheid onderl president Thabo Mbeki se stelling dat Suid- Afrika 'n tydperk van hoop betree het, en Suid-Afrika se hoop l daarin dat ons op die drumpel staan van voorspoed, agb Watson. Hierdie hoop is ng transendentaal ng sentimenteel, maar dis gegrond op geduld en eindelose menslike gebruike. Dit plaas elkeen van ons in 'n ontvouende menslike drama waarin ons sowel dogmatisme as selfgenoegsaamheid vermy.
Ons rol in die drama neem reeds vorm aan. Die regering het die dringendheid van die saak besef en die vervoerbedryf het ons gewys op die uitdaging, agb Watson. In die daarstelling van die Nasionale Oorgangswysigingswetsontwerp op Landvervoer het hy bewus geword van 'n omgewing waarin vrees en intrige algemeen was in die land. Dit word van ons wat in gesagsposisies is, agb Watson, verwag om die moed, deursettingsvermo en visie te h om 'n veranderde kultuur in te stel en te kweek wat noodsaaklik is vir deursigtige en verantwoordbare bestuur.
Ons moet ons daarvoor beywer om te antwoord op die uitdaging om 'n moderne Afrikastaat te bou deur die filosofiese grondslag te l van die staat as ontwikkelaar. Eindelose menslike behandeling, soos Gramsci aan sulke wreldleiers sou verduidelik het, sou daarop aangedring het dat die pad na so 'n toekoms gegrond moet wees op analise, beplanning en strategie. Analise, beplanning en strategie trek van die globale na die plaaslike en lig in van die plaaslike na die globale, agb Robertson.
Volgens die bekroonde beplanningsteoretikus prof Patsy Healey sal dit die mees radikale en verreikende veranderings teweegbring in die benadering wat ons aanvaar het. Sy s: (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Mr F ADAMS: Mr Chairman, hon Minister, hon comrades and members, the writer John Berger, winner of the Booker Prize, writes about Antonio Gramsci and defines his exceptional abilities as follows:
The least dogmatic thinker about revolution that this century has produced was Antonio Gramsci. His lack of dogmatism arises from patience. This patience has nothing to do with inertia or self-sufficiency. His exceptional patience arises from a sense of practice that never comes to an end. He viewed things close-up and sometimes gave direction to the political struggle of his time, but he never forgot what the background was of the developing drama that stretched over a period of many centuries. Perhaps this was what prevented Gramsci, unlike many revolutionaries, from becoming a millenniumist. He believed in hope rather than promises, and hope is a long story.
This wisdom is at the heart of President Thabo Mbeki's statement that South Africa has entered an age of hope, and South Africa's hope is rooted in the fact that we are on the threshold of prosperity, hon Watson. This hope is neither transcendental nor sentimental, but is based on patience and endless human practices. It places each one of us in an unfolding human drama in which we avoid dogmatism as well as self-sufficiency.
Our role in the drama is already taking shape. The government realised the urgency of the matter and the transport industry pointed out the challenge to us, hon Watson. In the drafting of the National Land Transport Transition Amendment Bill it became aware of an environment in which fear and intrigue were the order of the day in the country. We who are in positions of authority, hon Watson, are expected to have the courage, perseverance and vision to introduce and cultivate a changed culture, which is essential for transparent and accountable government.
We must endeavour to meet the challenge of building a modern African state by laying the philosophical foundation of the state as developer. Endless human treatment, as Gramsci would have explained to such world leaders, would have insisted that the road to such a future should be based on analysis, planning and strategy. Analysis, planning and strategy move from the global to the local and inform from the local to the global, hon Robertson.
According to the acclaimed planning theorist Prof Patsy Healey this will bring about the most radical and far-reaching changes in the approach that we have adopted. She says:]
Strategy-making is a process of deliberative paradigm change, hon Watson, paradigm change! -
It aims to change cultural conceptions, systems of understanding and systems' meaning. It is more than just producing collective decisions. It is about shifting and reshaping convictions.
- which the DA can't do, hon Watson. [Interjections.]
Hierdie groeitempo is op sigself nie genoeg nie, en dit is die aard van groei wat van kritieke belang is. Ons moet seker maak dat hor groeitempos gekombineer word met groter maatskaplike gelykheid wat die armes en ekonomies uitgeslote mense in staat sal stel om die middele te bekom om te kan deelneem aan die ekonomie en hulle eie bronne van bemagtiging te bou, saam met die effektiewe beskerming van die natuurlikehulpbron-basis van die land.
In die laaste plek moet groei nie ruimtelike apartheid en ondoeltreffendheid vererger soos in die eerste dekade van vryheid nie. Dit moet die lewe geriefliker. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[This growth rate as such is not enough, and it is the nature of that growth that is of vital importance. We must ensure that higher growth rates are combined with greater social equality that will enable the poor and economically excluded people to acquire the means to be able to participate in the economy and build their own sources of empowerment, together with the effective protection of the natural resource base of the country.
Lastly, growth must not worsen spatial apartheid and inefficiency, as happened in the first decade of freedom. It should make life more comfortable.]
Madam Chairperson, will the hon member take a question?
No, no, I think you can sit down, Mr Watson. You're wasting my time. [Laughter.]
Dit moet die lewe geriefliker en meer bekostigbaar maak vir die meerderheid van ons mense, wat desperaat is om toegang te verkry tot ekonomiese, maatskaplike en ekologiese geleenthede.
Op die punt van Asgisa ... (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[It should make life more comfortable and more affordable for the majority of our people, who are desperate to gain access to economic, social and ecological opportunities.
On the issue of Asgisa ...]
No, man, this is Transport!
Transport is deel van Asgisa, agb Robinson. U weet, as 'n mens iets wil s en jy s niks ... Daar's 'n liedjie wat lui, "You say it best when you say nothing at all."
Ek dink dis wat die DA moet doen; liewer stilbly en niks s nie, want die agb Watson mislei die Huis. Die agb Watson s die Wes-Kaap het 'n volle Wes- Kaap-regeringsitting gehad waar hulle hierdie wysigingswetsontwerp goedgekeur het. Waar was u, Meneer? Was u daar in die Wes-Kaap?
Hier sit my agb kollega wat daar was. Die Wes-Kaap het openbare verhore gehou, meneer. Waar was u? U kom hier en mislei die Huis. U s dis 'n wet wat drakonies is. Nee, Meneer. Dis 'n wet wat Suid-Afrika op die regte pad plaas. Ek wil h u moet terugdraai. U moet terugdraai.
Die afgelope tyd is die visie van hierdie nasionale regering om 'n beter lewe vir almal te skep ernstig onder druk geplaas deur die DA-beheerde veelpartyregering van die Uniestad Kaapstad. Die uitslag van die plaaslike regeringsverkiesings het 'n ommekeer gebring in die rasseharmonie en maatskaplike eenheid wat ons graag wou bou en wat die DA besig is om te probeer vernietig in die Wes-Kaap. Die uitslae van die verkiesing en die bestaan van onstabiele koalisies het die swaar gewonne stabiliteit wat in die provinsie bewerkstellig is, begin bedreig.
Die DA loop skoon en deel bruinbrode en blikkies vis aan ons mense uit in Tafelsig om 'n verkiesing te wen. Dit is laag gedaal vir die DA! In die lig van die politieke broosheid in die Uniestad Kaapstad is ek oortuig ... (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Mr F ADAMS: Transport is part of Asgisa, hon Robinson. You know, if one wants to say something and one says nothing ... There's a song that goes: "You say it best when you say nothing at all."
I think that is what the DA must do: rather keep quiet and say nothing, because the hon Watson is misleading the House. The hon Watson says that the Western Cape had a full sitting of the Western Cape government where they approved this amending Bill. Where were you, sir? Were you there in the Western Cape?
My hon colleague who was there is sitting here. The Western Cape held public hearings, sir. Where were you? You come here and mislead the House. You say that it is a draconian Act. No, sir. It is an Act that places South Africa on the right course. I want you to turn back. You must turn back.
Recently the vision of this national government to create a better life for all was placed under serious pressure by the DA-controlled multi-party government of the Cape Town Unicity. The results of the local government elections brought a turnabout in the racial harmony and social unity that we would have liked to build and that the DA is trying to destroy in the Western Cape. The results of the election and the existence of unstable coalitions have started to threaten hard-won stability that has been achieved in the province.
The DA even went so far as to hand out brown bread and tinned fish to our people in Tafelsig to win an election. That is certainly sinking very low for the DA! In die light of the political fragility in the Cape Town Unicity I am convinced ...]
On a point of order, Madam Chair: The speaker has just said that the DA went around buying votes with brown bread and tinned fish. [Laughter.] That is a lie that the speaker cannot substantiate. [Laughter.] I ask you to ask him to withdraw it. He cannot substantiate it. [Interjections.]
Thank you, Chairperson. Like I said, you say it best when you say nothing at all, hon Watson. The facts are that the DA mayor went and dished out bread and tinned fish to our people on an open bus on a Sunday afternoon! Get your facts straight. You come here and mislead the House about other provinces, hon Watson. Get your facts straight, hon Watson!
In die lig van die politieke broosheid in die Uniestad Kaapstad is ek oortuig en vasbeslote dat die nasionale en provinsiale regerings daadwerklike pogings aanwend om kalmte en stabiliteit te bewerkstellig en te verseker dat gefokus word op dienslewering sodat ons almal doelgerig kan werk in die rigting van die strategiese doelwitte van Asgisa vir 'n beter lewe vir almal, insluitende die Uniestad Kaapstad.
Net omdat ons in die Wes-Kaap plaaslike regerings het wat bestuur word deur koalisies en deur die DA met die voortdurende moontlikheid van verandering na gelang van die wisseling van koalisies, beteken dit nie dat die publiek benadeel mag word vanwe ondoeltreffendheid, swak dienslewering of die waagpolitiek wat die DA speel nie, agb Robertson.
Beteken dit nou dat 'n beter lewe vir almal misluk het en onuitvoerbaar is? Nee, stellig nee! Toe opperhoof Albert Luthuli die eerste keer hierdie visie in woorde gestel het, het dit gelei tot drie dekades van absolute staatsbrutaliteit. In die gees van die verstandigheid van Gramsci dat hoop langdurig van aard is, moet ons eenvoudig meer vasberade wees en harder werk om die visie van 'n beter lewe vir almal te verwesenlik.
In hierdie maand, Junie, herdenk ons die moed en opoffering wat gemaak is deur jongmense in 1976, wat die grondslag gel het vir die eenheid van die toekoms. Net so sal ons die optog 50 jaar gelede van vroue na die Uniegebou herdenk, waarmee hulle hul ontevredenheid met apartheid as vroue te kenne gegee het terwyl hulle ten volle aangedring het op hulle onvervreembare reg om gelyke burgers te wees wat volledig by ons samelewing ingeskakel is. Agb Chen, jy moet mooi luister! In albei hierdie vierings moet ons hard werk om konkrete dienste te lewer aan jongmense en vroue.
Die ANC steun die wysingswetsontwerp. Ek dank u. [Tussenwerpsels.] [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[In the light of the political fragility in the Cape Town Unicity I am convinced and adamant that the national and provincial governments are making a real effort to bring about calm and stability and to ensure that the focus is on service delivery so that all of us can work in a purposeful way in the direction of the strategic goals of Asgisa for a better life for all, including the Cape Town Unicity.
Just because we have local governments in the Western Cape that are managed by coalitions and by the DA, with the continuous possibility of change according to changes in coalitions, this does not mean that the public may be disadvantaged by inefficiency, poor service delivery or the risky politics engaged in the DA, hon Robertson.
Does this mean that a better life for all has failed and is impracticable? No, probably not. When Chief Albert Luthuli put this vision into words for the first time it resulted in three decades of absolute state brutality. In the spirit of the wisdom of Gramsci that hope lasts a long time, we must simply be more determined and work harder to realise the vision of a better life for all. In this month of June we commemorate the courage and sacrifices of the youth in 1976, which laid the foundation for the unity of the future. Similarly, we will commemorate the march by women to the Union Buildings 50 years ago, through which they as women made known their dissatisfaction with apartheid, while they absolutely insisted on their inalienable right to be equal citizens who are fully integrated into our society. Hon Chen, you must listen carefully! In both these celebrations we have to work hard to deliver concrete services to the youth and women.
The ANC supports the amending Bill. I thank you. [Interjections.][Applause.]]
Thank you. Chairperson and hon members for such a very lively and vibrant debate on this issue. [Laughter.] Firstly, to agree with the hon Mzizi, he was speaking in isiZulu, but basically, he was making an analogy between this Bill and a baby and that it needs to grow. So, what I interpreted from what he said was that this Bill is a framework and as we move towards its implementation as practice dictates, we will be able to amend as we go along. That is the spirit with which I want to close this debate on this Bill.
Also I agree with the hon Adams as well for who quoted very extensively on Gramsci. I just want to mention, not Gramsci, but about Karl Marx, who was one of the greatest philosophers of olden times, who said that philosophers have interpreted the world in different ways, but the most important thing, however, is to change it.
The debate has been subjected to various interpretations, but I believe that the most important thing is: What does the Bill seek to achieve? The Bill seeks to transform public transport in South Africa. The Bill seeks to ensure that all the transformation initiatives that have been taking place at a political level to deal with the issues of taxi recapitalisation find expression in legislation like this.
So, it is in that spirit that I would like to urge members to look at this Bill. It is not going to resolve all the problems that confront public transport, but what it is going to do is to provide the impetus to accelerate the transformation, in particular, of the taxi industry in South Africa.
We have reached many agreements with many stakeholders in South Africa. In order for us to implement those measures, we need this framework, in terms of this legislation, so that we can know what the role of the Minister, various MECs responsible for transport, local authorities, and operating licensing boards and of Registrars will be. That is simply what this Bill requires us to do.
As we all know, we cannot always put everything that plagues public transport in South Africa into a simply Bill like this. It is not practically possible. That is why, after having the framework of this National Land Transport Transition Amendment Bill, to ensure that we are able to accelerate the recapitalisation of the taxi industry in South Africa, we will, by way of regulations, be able to put into effect some of the comments that have been made by hon members.
So, I want to veer away from amending the already amended National Land Transport Transition Amendment Bill. We believe that the amendments in the National Land Transport Transition Amendment Bill, as they stand in front of you, are adequate for us to deal with all the issues that are at stake at the present moment. Other specific issues can be dealt with through regulations.
The hon Watson said these amendments are dangerous. They are not dangerous, hon Watson. If you are involved in transforming the world, like Karl Marx said, you don't have to interpret it, as hon Mzizi would say that umkhonto wegwala uphelela edwaleni [the spear of a coward ends up on the rock]. We can no longer continue sharpening the spear. You must make use of it.
That's precisely what we do. The evidence will always dictate to us what we need to do at a particular point in time. If 74% of taxi users are dissatisfied with the manner in which the industry is being run in South Africa, with unroadworthy vehicles and the lives and safety of passengers being at stake, we need to do something to correct it. That's precisely what these corrective measures are aimed at dealing with.
Hon Mzizi, on the issue of tourism, I indicated in my Budget Vote in Parliament two weeks ago, that we have several engagements with the tourism people, and negotiations about a variety of matters, some of which have been raised here. Those concerns, some of which have been noted by the department, will be incorporated as we implement them. If required, we will be able to ensure that the outcomes of those negotiations also find expression in legislation. So, there is no danger, as far as I am concerned, that this amending Bill is going to negatively affect tourism. On the contrary, it is going to promote it so that it moves to a higher level.
As regards intergrated transport plans, as we said, the amendments are intended to simplify the planning process regime to enable even the smallest of municipalities to be able to develop their own integrated transport plans. All those issues have been taken into account and, in fact, there are other initiatives, as the special delegate from Gauteng has highlighted. Gauteng is already thinking of developing a single transport authority. Ethekwini already has one. In the Western Cape, Cape Town is trying to have one. All these measures are going to assist in our further endeavour to transform public transport in our country.
Hon delegate from the Western Cape, many of the issues that you have raised have been discussed in the select committee of the NCOP and also in the National Assembly, and have been taken into consideration. I also want to add, as I have said, that some of the issues that do not, on the face of it, appear in the Bill as amended, can be incorporated in terms of regulations that can be promulgated from time to time by the executive authority.
To the Eastern Cape delegate, Moerane-Mamase, as regards the issue of the transport budget, as we all know, it is actually increasing in real terms - by about 18% over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework period. We believe that we are going to be seeing a continuing rise in the transport budget because of the challenges that we face in South Africa, especially as regards roads. I indicated last time we dealt with the issue of the budget in the NCOP, that on roads alone, in the next three years, the three spheres of government are going to be spending about R63 billion. I believe that even though that money will not solve all the problems that confront us in South Africa, it will go a long way towards ensuring that we improve the situation.
All spheres of government are going to be working very closely in terms of ensuring that the amendments in this National Land Transport Transition Amendment Bill are implemented. I want to assure you that two days ago I worked very closely with the MECs of transport in Johannesburg. We met to look further at all these issues pertaining to taxi recapitalisation. There is very good progress in this particular regard.
A few weeks ago, I met with the leadership of the South African National Taxi Council - Santaco - from 8 in the evening until 1:30 in the morning, dealing with the challenges of conversion, which is proceeding very well. As far as we are concerned, we have moved to more than 85% of conversions. The critical thing now is to ensure that this Bill, as amended, is passed by the NCOP, so that we are able to go out there, not to interpret public transport further, but at least to try and change it for the better, so that public transport is affordable, safe and user-friendly. We must also build appropriate facilities so that our people can be transported in a proper manner. I thank you. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.
I shall now put the question, and the question is that the Bill, as amended, be agreed to. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all the delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces' votes. Are all delegate heads present? Yes.
In accordance with Rule 71 I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote, if they so wish. None. Hon members, we shall now proceed to voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour or against or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?
Ondersteun. [Supports.]
Free State?
Ya seketela. [We support.]
Gauteng?
Votes in favour.
KwaZulu-Natal?
Abstains.
Limpopo?
Limpopo votes in favour, Chair.
Mpumalanga?
Mpumalanga supports.
Northern Cape?
Northern Cape supports.
North West?
North West is in favour.
Western Cape?
Siyavumelana. [We support.]
Hon members, eight provinces voted in favour and one abstained. I therefore declare the Bill, as amended, agreed to. [Applause.]
I would like to take this opportunity to thank the hon the Minister and the department for coming and addressing the House on such important legislation and I believe that the provinces, even the one that abstained, will be able to follow up on and implement that legislation. Thank you very much.
Bill accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.