Thank you very much, Chairperson. Let me express my gratitude to my colleagues; even though the Deputy Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development seems not to agree, I can only promise him a weekend in Pollsmoor as a way of appeasing him; just a weekend in Pollsmoor, free of charge!
To Kgoshi Mokoena, I want to say that firstly, I have not received a proposal from Nicro in this regard. However, I'm informed that Nicro has made submissions to the Portfolio Committee on Correctional Services at the request of the committee. Secondly, I currently don't have any statement to make since I'm not privy to the context and detail of such a report or a proposal, but I do need to say that prisons should be treated as prisons.
Prisons are security establishments; therefore, allowing businesses to be set up in prison is something that I would not recommend. We are dealing with criminals that are sometimes very violent, therefore, I wouldn't want to recommend that businesses be set up for other people working with them there.
There is, however, a lot of work being done by offenders inside and outside of prisons, for example, renovating schools and building churches like Reverend Mthini's church in Gugulethu and another church in Mitchells Plain. We are in that business of building churches and it is a way of asking people for forgiveness that we build the churches.
Building educare centres is one thing that I'm open to. We use offenders to build educare centres for children, because they have offended against some of the parents and some of the children, and also to renovate old age homes, as we will be doing, probably for the old age home in Gugulethu.
They are building houses for destitute people there - one or two houses, not on a large scale and not competing with contractors but making sure that we have our own way of again saying that we are very sorry and remorseful for the things we've done.
On 28 November 2007 we will be handing over about 650kg of vegetables and more than 700kg of meat to the Gugulethu old age home. This is all coming from our farms; this time from Helderstroom farm and from Drakenstein. These are vegetables that are planted, looked after and harvested by offenders. This is surplus veggies and surplus meat that we have and if there is an old age home or any educare centre near your place, as a public representative, please feel free to approach my centres, not for yourselves but for those who are destitute. We can help in that; even with the renovations and building, so please try and talk to my members. Thank you.
Plans to release petty criminal offenders held in correctional service centres due to inability to pay fines
143. Mr O M Thetjeng (DA) asked the Minister of Correctional Services:
Whether there are any plans to release petty criminal offenders who are in correctional service centres due to their inability to pay fines, thus creating unnecessary overcrowding; if not, why not; if so, when? CO2894E
Thank you Chairperson. The reply to the question is as follows: The Department of Correctional Services is managing such offenders in line with its strategic plan which states that all provisions of the Criminal Procedure Act of 1977 should be used to implement alternative placement options where possible.
Offenders sentenced to a maximum of five years imprisonment as an alternative to a fine in terms of section 287(4)(a) must be considered for placement on parole as soon as possible after their admission into a correctional centre. Regional commissioners are sensitised to ensure that all offenders within this category who qualify to be considered for placement on parole are considered timeously.
However, aspects such as the availability of support systems and a monitorable address - we need to find an address where we can monitor the offenders' movements - are critical in this regard and the lack thereof does not always allow for such placement. So, placements get delayed because we cannot get an address of a family who can take care of this parolee.
A total of 8 647 offenders within this category were released during the period 1 June to 30 September 2007 in terms of this provision. We also approached the courts, as Deputy Minister De Lange knows, to assist us with those who cannot afford their bail. We cannot just let them go. We've got to go back to the courts because it is important.
If you read today's report about Pollsmoor, the writer of that report totally missed the point of what we are doing, but the Portfolio Committee on Justice had a very good report. We cannot once a person is admitted to our centre - whether it is a pregnant lady or not - just say: Go away you are pregnant, we cannot keep you here. We don't have that right at all. We cannot release people on our own. That would undermine the justice system.
For awaiting-trial detainees, we go back to the courts and it is our biggest problem. For sentence prisoners, it is not a problem. For the awaiting trials it is the delays that take place between SA Police Service, the Department of Justice and our department that really cripple the whole system.
These two, SA Police Service and Justice, are assisting us in dealing with the management of awaiting-trial detainees. Again, I repeat this, whether it is a young child or older child, we cannot just release them. We have to go back to the courts. Therefore, this system must work because these three departments are critical to this.
So the report does not capture the gist of what the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development discussed. I've read the report today, it doesn't at all; it is too sensational. Thank you very much.
Progress regarding reintegration programme of inmates into their communities
151. Mr S Shiceka (ANC) asked the Minister of Correctional Services:
Whether the reintegration programme of inmates into their communities is bearing any fruit; if not, why not; if so, how has this been achieved? CO2956E
Hon Shiceka, community service provides offenders with opportunities to give back to those they have harmed. As I have said just now, when they do those things for the community they are giving back something which has a restorative effect on offenders, their victims and the community.
Officials working at community corrections offices supervise these offenders, who render community service at various community institutions around the country. In so far as the people who are doing community service all over the country are concerned, we have big and small names. If I were to mention some of those names you would know them, but I am not going to do that. These institutions where offenders carry out community service assisting with cleaning, etc, include, inter alia, public hospitals; clinics; municipalities at local government; police stations; welfare organisations; old age homes, for instance in Gugulethu; and homes for people with disabilities, for example at an orphanage in Nqgeleni. They do not get payment for this as it is part of their community service.
Hospices and zoological gardens can make use of community services. So, even communities can ask: "Can we ask offenders to clean the graveyards in the communities where we live?" We will oblige you in that, because they are there to do exactly that.
Communities are also beneficiaries of the work done by offenders within their communities. Some of these community service projects include cleaning parks in places that have parks, general maintenance, gardening - but do not ask them to do gardening in your own home because we are talking about community service and not gardening services in people's private homes. They cannot even do gardening for me - only general administrative and clerical work and painting. We have renovated and painted a school in Cala, in Manzimdaka. The offenders have totally renovated and repainted that school.
We are rendering these services with the assistance of our partners such as Nicro, Khulisa and many other faith-based and community-based organisations.
One last point to be made is that research has been commissioned by the Institute of Security Studies to inform the consideration of a system to monitor re-offending in South Africa and this was done by the Department of Correctional Services. We get complaints about re-offending and abscondment by some of these people out there.
We are trying to find out what the problem is, how many of them are involved and what makes them re-offend and abscond from the system. So, those are the things that we are doing to make sure that the system works. Thanks.
Chairperson, my question to the Minister is: Does he not think that it might be necessary for a deliberate effort to be made to create structures at a community level that must be able to monitor progress of its own sons and daughters who have been incarcerated and, as the people who come from these communities, they should make sure that when they come back, they are able also to be debriefed and reintegrated into society because some of these people do not have families or homes but the community can be the net that can receive them to ensure that they do not commit crime again. That means recidivism does not happen. Thank you very much.
I could not agree more with hon Shiceka. We have parole boards and community corrections. I have sent them out there to make sure that we have structures that would include the police, because we need the police to be involved in this so that they can trace those who abscond.
But the social reintegration process that we have is exactly asking for what the hon Shiceka is talking about. It is important that as public representatives we also find out about parolees and probationers that are in our region or community. We must also find out what is being done to follow up and to make sure that we get debriefed and that they really stay as part of the communities.
The community net is much more important, as hon Shiceka is saying, because without that community net catching them when things go wrong, it is not easy as they go back to reoffend. Some of them are rejected by and alienated from their families. There will be families who say, "Ningamkhuphi uMninwa Mahlangu, ngoba asifuni akhutshwe." [Please do not release Mninwa Mahlangu because we do not want him out of jail].
It is the family that says, "Keep him there, Ngconde, until he is old." I cannot do that. Firstly, it will be inhumane and secondly, against our own Constitution and human rights. So, these are some of the things that we are talking about. Victims should also be included in that process. We always emphasise that point although victims will not always agree with the paroled person as they might say, "Hayi khona, makangakhutshwa, do not let this one out," after a person has done probably something like 15 years out of 20. It becomes unfair but we have got to negotiate this through social workers, the community, and the families, especially that of the victims to see what we can do about that.
Chair, and hon Minister, something concerns me here. You know, we read a lot about parolees and also people on bail reverting to crime, and the Minister has now also mentioned the absconding of parolees and reverting to crime, but he also stated that when they do this community work they do it free of charge and are not paid anything for it.
Now, in the comfort of the prison they get fed, clothed and housed but if they get nothing for community work, isn't that a matter that drives them to crime because otherwise how do they eat and buy clothes? They are out here in the community doing work as part of the sentence but they have nothing to feed on or to sustain themselves on.
I personally think that the second part of your question is a critical question in terms of processing. Remember we have got two streams here. The one stream that goes out and works or the work teams that do all the educare centres are looked after by us because we have got food and everything and we also pay them a stipend.
The problem arises when they have to go out as parolees and probationers and these are in the second stream. Probationers are released directly by magistrates and courts. So, we do not have anything much to do other than monitor them and parolees dealt with by the parole boards. But we need to find a way where we can do something that will assist them in the process of being parolees.
You are quite correct that sometimes some of them do not even have a place to live. We have got to find a way of assisting, and again any ideas that members have, please feel free to write to me and I will consider all of them.
Measures to address anomalies pointed out by Auditor-General
146. Kgoshi M L Mokoena (ANC) asked the Minister of Correctional Services:
(1) How is his department addressing anomalies pointed out by the Auditor-General;
(2) whether those measures will prevent his department from receiving qualified annual reports; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? CO2949E
Deputy Chair, Mluleki, hon George here, is very naughty. He says I should say this but I'm going to say it because I'm a Christian and he is a Christian himself. He says: If in the first place they didn't commit crime, they would be having houses, but that is not the way to approach it. You can't approach it from that angle at all. So I'm censuring him for what he is saying. Reverend Moatshe, please talk to him and counsel him.
Kgoshi, for the 2006-2007 financial year, the Auditor-General issued five management reports which highlighted various issues of non-compliance by my department. The reports were distributed to the relevant branches for them to provide suitable answers and strategies to address and prevent similar queries in future.
On 23 and 24 August, a senior management conference was held with the focus solely on the issue of compliance. In the department I'm known for one thing; whenever we start meetings with the senior management, my war cry is simple: Compliance, compliance and compliance because if we don't comply, we'll get Auditor-General reports that are qualified all the time.
So, these officials from all over the country attended the conference and took part in compiling action plans to address the qualifications and other important issues raised by the Auditor-General in the audit report. On a monthly basis, our audit steering committee meetings take place, where all branches and staff from Auditor-General's office are represented. The items on the agenda include all qualification issues as well as other important matters highlighted by the Auditor-General. These issues are interrogated and progress is monitored.
Some identified anomalies will take longer to resolve. The asset register and asset management will take longer but other issues should take a short period of time to resolve. Some will be resolved within a short timeframe. The measures are incorporated into various action plans and progress reports from different branches.
I also must admit that the finance and budget committees in Parliament, the portfolio committee and the select committee assist us a lot when you ask us to come and report and to be able then to criticise the work that department does constructively and give guidance where it is needed.
Chair, let me thank the hon Minister for the honest and fair response. My follow-up question is to the effect that in some instances those anomalies that are pointed out involve the same units and same officials, who, in my own terms, are those who have reached the ceiling. They are not transformable; you cannot train them.
What can we do to those officials because they are tarnishing the image of these good departments? What must be done to this kind of official because if the Auditor-General points out the same mistakes for three consecutive years, obviously that is unacceptable? Something must be done about it. Thank you.
Kgoshi, you are quite correct. Regarding those anomalies coming from the same unit and same officials, the new commissioner now has put some procedures in place. These procedures say that we will do a performance assessment on officials and units. If we find that, repeatedly, you are going on doing the same things and not correcting your offending behaviour, you will be disciplined. Disciplinary procedures will be put in place so that we can get you out of the system because you are not worth being kept in the system - you are not improving at all.
So those are things that I'm very happy about, and the new commissioner has made no bones about it to all the senior members. Right now, there are senior members that are complaining about that and I'm quite happy. I'm smiling because they are appealing to me and I'm saying to myself, "If only you knew that I love what the commissioner is doing." Measures to improve financial management of department
152. Mr A T Manyosi (ANC) asked the Minister of Correctional Services:
Whether his department has put measures in place to improve its financial management; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details? CO2958E
Hon Mluleki George, please! [Laughter] Deputy Chairperson, when a member is out of order in the House that member ought to be thrown out. And I have the Deputy Minister of Defence here. I am making a formal complaint.
Hon Manyosi, it is a long question. I would like to table your answer because it is quite a long one about certification of monthly financial management meetings which I have already talked about. It includes monthly financial meetings with the regional heads of finance and supply management and the issue of in-year monitoring reporting on budget expenditure and revenue, as well as budget blocking, financial policies and procedures and financial management training. I have all of those here in front of me. Can I table it so that the hon member can read it and come back to us with some of the queries that he might have? Thank you.
Reinstatement of official who assisted with exposing corrupt activities
153. Ms F Nyanda (ANC) asked the Minister of Correctional Services:
Whether the official who assisted his department with exposing corrupt activities by some officials at a correctional centre in the Free State was reinstated after he had been suspended; if not, why not; if so, when? CO2959E
That is the last one. I thank my colleagues very much for being so generous to this ``little man'' - me. I appreciate it.
Hon Nyanda, the official in question declared a dispute following his dismissal from the department and referred the dispute for arbitration to the General Public Service Sectoral Bargaining Council-GPSSBC. The arbitrator ruled in favour of the employee and ordered that he be reinstated. The department is of the opinion that the arbitrator erred in his judgment and has filed for review proceedings in the Labour Court, which is something procedural that we can do. So we have done exactly that. Thank you.
Thank you very much, hon Minister, for the response. Minister, what were the conditions of the arbitration because normally the decision of the arbitration is that it will be final and accepted by both parties? Wasn't that perhaps the agreement between the two parties before going into arbitration? Thank you.
Hon member, I will not say anything that might mislead this House. At the moment I am not sure if I know the reasons behind that but I can bring them to you once I find out from the department, write to you and give you the details thereof.
Thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson. Minister, as an executive authority you know that we passed a Bill here on Tuesday. The Bill is changing the term ``executing authority'' to ``an executive authority''. Now, I am using a new term that might not be in your vocabulary.
Minister, as an executive authority, don't you think that this issue of the said official, Setlai, is sending a signal that, if you expose corruption, you do not rest but are dealt with? I can tell you that since that official exposed that corruption the then National Commissioner came out very strongly, even against the views of the public including ourselves, that we are saying that we are combating corruption but if an official comes out in the open to combat corruption, that official is dealt with. By pursuing this matter isn't that sending a signal to say that if you report corruption you will never rest but you will be hounded out of the organisation and the department because the department does not rest?
It means that you will exhaust this man until he is financially bankrupt because if you fight the state with all the resources that it has, at the end of the day you will decide to leave the case. You will not have the resources to fight anymore. Isn't that sending a signal that if you fight corruption you will be dealt with, you will be hounded out of the organisation? According to me the world has handled the case. Unless I can be persuaded otherwise, I don't think it is correct. Thank you.
Thank you very much, hon Shiceka. May I, just out of sheer courtesy and respect for the labour courts and everything, not discuss the details of this particular case because if I do, I would really be putting myself into trouble? So I would rather not. I do, however, want to say that the ways in which cases are handled sometimes are different. Each case is seen and handled differently from others.
Secondly, when we talk of whistle-blowers - I am not referring to this particular case at all - you have to weigh up whether this really is a whistle-blower or a person who is just bent on mischief. Again, you have to weigh up these things. As executive authority, surely, when it is presented to me, after having listened to the case and to everybody, I am able to make a decision and say: Let the process continue or let's stop the process right here and be able to wrap up this whole thing and see what we can do.
I am not particularly talking about this one case. At the end of the day we've got to make sure that there is closure in everything that we handle. It does not have to go on and on. We close it at a given stage and turn over a new leaf, all of us, to make sure that government's work and policies are pushed forward. If we are going to be bogged down by one individual case, we won't be doing justice to the electorate who voted us into government.
Hon Minister, I agree with you that that case is sub judice and that you may not discuss it in the House.
Chair, arising from the hon Minister's reply, I want to humbly submit, suggest and propose to the hon Minister, whom I like so much, that they take the committee in confidence and that we be fully briefed an this case because, in the opinion of the committee, we feel that some other things need to be straightened out before we have different opinions on the issues. As a community, we feel strongly that some other things need to be addressed before the said official is thrown to the dogs. Thanks Chair.
I can promise the committee that as soon as we come back from recess and if they put this particular issue on the agenda of the committee, I will lead that delegation that will come to the committee. I ask if only we could have that in camera because there issues will arise that may land us in trouble with the Labour Court. So, if they agree with me on that, I am quite happy to lead a delegation to that select committee to explain all these issues.
I now want to announce that we have officials in this House to pass letters from one person to the other so do not use the members of the House. Thank you very much, Mr Sogoni. [Laughter.]
Criteria applicable to reservists in SA Police Service
133. Ms B L Ntembe (ID) asked the Minister of Safety and Security:
(1) What is the difference between the work of a reservist and that of a permanently appointed police official;
(2) whether permanent police officials have preference over reservists when vacant posts are filled; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details;
(3) whether age affects appointments in the SA Police Service; if not, why not; if so,
(4) whether finality is given to reservists who are over the age limit but who are trained and actively involved in the Police Service; if not, why not; if so, (a) to how many and (b) where;
(5) what criteria are used in the allocation of the remuneration of reservists? CO1762E
Deputy Chairperson, a reservist while on duty is regarded as a member of the Police Service and has the same powers, duties and responsibilities as a permanent member of the service. Different categories of reservists have been established and the category to which a reservist has been appointed will determine the nature of the work that they will perform. The categories are Category A, B, C and