Chairperson, there is a process that is used to asses the performance of senior managers in the Public Service. There has never been a rating of the said person from that process that has been so negative as to warrant suspension. When the person concerned assumed office in 1999, crime levels were much higher than they are now. The downward trend attests to the person's guidance to the police service.
Lastly, there is a legal process that has started and is designed to look at issues such as the current question. I will not pre-empt that process by comments that will prejudge the matter in one way or another. Thank you.
Minister, we have seen the President move with great speed in the suspension of Advocate Pikoli on very flimsy, specious grounds, yet here we have Commissioner Selebi not being suspended. The question relates not to the cloud of suspicion hanging over the commissioner but to his competence in relation to the job. This country is suffering and ordinary citizens don't have your bodyguards or the bodyguards used by Members of Cabinet. They are being robbed, raped and murdered at unprecedented levels. You cannot deny that.
The question is, seeing that the commissioner has failed in his overall performance; has failed in his attempt to bring crime down; has failed in the eyes of the public in that he has friends in very low places, will you suspend him or not, and if you won't, why on earth not, and if you can't, have you asked the President to do so?
Deputy Chair, I'm sure the hon member did not hear my response to these questions. I'm going to repeat myself. There is a process that is used to assess the performance of senior managers in the Public Service. There has never been a rating of the said person from that process that has been so negative as to warrant suspension. [Interjections.]
Order! Please. Order! Give the Minister a chance.
When the person concerned assumed office in 1999, crime levels were much higher than they are now. The downward trend attests to the person's guidance to the police service. There is a legal process that has started, designed to look at issues such as the current question. I will not pre-empt the process by comments that will prejudge the matter in one way or another.
Voorsitter, ek verstaan dat die Minister s daar is 'n proses aan die gang, maar daar was ook 'n bepaalde proses in die geval van die voormalige hoof van die Nasionale Intelligensie Agentskap, mnr Billy Masetla. Hy is aangestel deur die President maar die agb Minister van Intelligensie, mnr Ronnie Kasrils, het nie geskroom om hom te skors toe daar 'n ondersoek teen hom was nie. Nou kom die agb Minister van Veiligheid en Sekuriteit en hy s in die geval van kommissaris Jackie Selebi is daar 'n ander proses. Dit is dieselfde proses.
Nou wil ek vir die agb Minister vra, dink hy nie dit is dubbele standaarde wat toegepas word nie, want in mnr Billy Masetla se geval is hy geskors, maar kommissaris Jackie Selebi kan maar aangaan? Dit is tog seker immers dubbele standaarde? (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Mr P J GROENWALD: Chairperson, I understand that the Minister says that there is a process under way but there was also a specific process in the case of the former head of the National Intelligence Agency, Mr Billy Masetla. He was appointed by the President but the hon Minister of Intelligence, Mr Ronnie Kasrils, did not hesitate to suspend him when an investigation was launched against him. Now the hon Minister of Safety and Security says that in the case of Commissioner Jackie Selebi, there is a different process. It is the same process.
Now, I want to ask the hon Minister whether he does not think double standards are being applied because in Mr Billy Masetla's case, he was suspended, but Commissioner Jackie Selebi can blithely carry on? Surely these are double standards?]
I don't know whether the Minister got the whole question?
I did.
You did? Thank you.
Well, it's easy for you to be cynical about these things but not with me because I have a responsibility arising from the functions that I have been given as part of government. You can be cynical because you want to be cynical. The fact of the matter is - I am saying - there is a process that is in place. You cannot talk to me about double standards, because I have not been guilty of any double standards. [Interjections.]
Order! Please.
There is a process that I respect, which is unfolding and that process will deal with these matters. If you want me to try to concoct a different answer to this, I am sorry to say I won't do it.
Thank you, Minister. There are two things that I want to ask the Minister. Firstly, it is about politics and perceptions. How would you feel if the investigators find that the National Commissioner is supposed to be arrested, as he is the first cop in this country and we rely on him to have a plan for arresting criminals? How would you feel if he is arrested tomorrow?
Secondly ... [Interjections.]
Hon member, you can't have two questions in one supplementary question.
Ngiyabonga. [Thank you.]
If anyone, from the President right down to members of the Public Service, is guilty of a crime and there is evidence of this, that person must be arrested and charged.
Minister, please explain to this House why you feel that the decision of whether or not to do the honourable thing and step down while various investigations are taking place should be left to Commissioner Selebi himself? Surely, the fact that you have not personally taken this decision, or at least advised the President to do so, further encourages the nation to believe that he is being protected for political reasons while the Pikolis of the country simply are not. Please explain yourself.
I don't know why she is directing that question at me. I really don't know but let me just say to you hon member, I am personally not going to be involved ... [Interjections.]
Chairperson, on a point of order: I would like to appeal to the other side that this is not a free-for-all discussion. You should really respect the Minister and ask him relevant questions but you are just making it a free for all. Please respect yourself. Thank you.
That wasn't a point of order, sir, but I'll let you through as an elderly person.
Hon member, I am not going to become involved in an inquisition. I am saying and I'll continue to say this that there is a process in place and that process is designed to do all these things that you are talking about. You want me to become involved in a situation where, in fact, we would be opening the floodgates if we do that.
Someone comes and accuses you of one thing or the other and what you are now introducing into South Africa is that when there is an allegation against you, you must immediately step down from whatever your position is. I am not going to support anything like that because there are so many allegations that are being made about so many people. And if we were to say that anyone against whom there is an allegation needs to stop the work they are doing, South Africa would grind to a halt.
Key findings and recommendations emerging from review of criminal justice system
356. Mr C V Burgess (ANC) asked the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:
Whether the review of the criminal justice system by the task team consisting of representatives of the government and the business sector has been concluded; if not, why not; if so, (a) what are the key findings and recommendations and (b) when will they be actioned?