Chairperson, hon members, members of the press and the public in the gallery, I'm honoured to participate in the Second Reading debate of the National Gambling Amendment Bill of 2008 in the National Council of Provinces today. In doing so, I'm fulfilling my obligations in terms of the National Gambling Act of 2004, which requires the Minister of Trade and Industry to introduce to Parliament legislation for the regulation of interactive gambling and to do so by way of an amendment to the National Gambling Act.
The current reality is that some of our citizens are participating in on- line gambling in South Africa, but the environment in which this is taking place is unregulated. This piece of legislation is therefore being introduced to protect consumers against the various risks and dangers such as addiction and problem gambling that take place within an unregulated environment.
After the draft Bill was approved by Cabinet in December 2006, written comments were received from stakeholders and the department held several public consultation meetings. The draft Bill was then introduced in the National Assembly on 26 July 2007. The Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry held public hearings leading to the adoption by that committee.
Against this background, it is a pleasure for me to now introduce the debate on the National Gambling Amendment Bill after deliberations by the Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs, as well as provincial legislatures. The Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs adopted the Bill on 12 March 2008, after receiving final mandates from provinces indicating their respective views on the Bill. With your permission, Chairperson, I wish to use this opportunity to express my heartfelt gratitude to both the select committee and the provincial legislatures for their excellent advice that contributed to the further strengthening of this Bill, thereby improving its quality.
The debate in the select committee was primarily focused on the socioeconomic impact of gambling in general. The concerns raised by hon members and members of the public relating to problem gambling, exposure to gambling by minors and vulnerable groups and the facilitation of money laundering, among others, are all valid concerns. They confirm the view that we must extend protection and ensure an effective regulatory environment to rein in unbecoming behaviour by operators.
As such, this amending Bill should be viewed as "public interest protection" legislation as it seeks to, among others, protect consumers against the over stimulation of gambling, protect our jurisdiction against criminal elements involved in money laundering and create a safe environment for those who desire to participate in gambling activities as a pastime.
In order to achieve the goal of creating a safe and protected environment, the Bill addresses the issues of player protection, problem gambling, advertising, money laundering, enforcement and compliance, licensing, provision of interactive gambling games and others, such as taxation.
Allow me to touch briefly on some of these aspects. With respect to player protection, the Bill provides that each and every player who engages in interactive gambling be registered with a licensed interactive gambling provider. Strict verification procedures that are compliant with the Financial Intelligence Centre Act and in a prescribed form will need to be complied with. Verification procedures, such as attaining a sworn statement - in a prescribed form -that a player is 18 years or older and that the jurisdiction in which they reside does not prohibit interactive gambling, will ensure that minors do not have access to interactive gambling.
In addition, credit providers will not be allowed to extend credit to players and there will be a dispute resolution mechanism for recourse where disputes arise. The Bill will make any gambling activity provided by an unlicensed provider unlawful and will prohibit South African players from engaging in interactive gambling activities with unlicensed providers.
One of the key fears with regard to interactive gambling is its round-the- clock accessibility and availability. This ease of access makes potential problem gambling a serious concern. The Bill, therefore, provides that an interactive gambling service provider will be required through licensing conditions and regulations to ensure that there is an electronic system for the monitoring and reporting of registered players. Players will be required to set limits on accounts. The principle of "know your customer" will apply and providers will be required to audit playing patterns and behaviour. Players will be exposed to self-diagnosis systems and notices on the websites of interactive gambling service providers in respect of voluntary player exclusion and treatment of addictive gambling in accordance with the objects of the National Responsible Gambling Programme.
With regard to advertising, hon members would recall that advertising interactive gambling was prohibited in terms of the Bill as amended by the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry. However, after concerns with the discriminatory nature and therefore the constitutionality of the prohibition, the select committee deemed it prudent to amend the Bill to reintroduce advertising, albeit under very strict conditions and subject to regulations prescribed by the Minister. Unlicensed operators, however, will not be allowed to advertise interactive gambling anywhere in the republic.
As far as money-laundering is concerned, the Bill will be governed by the requirements of the Financial Intelligence Centre Act. One of the main thrusts of the provisions on money laundering is that the Bill requires that gambling equipment, which includes the server and other key records of players' transactions, be located in South Africa. This requires all licensed interactive providers to have a presence in South Africa. This will also be in line with the existing company law. Key aspects, such as the registration of players and verification of player identity, as well as allowing players from selected countries that comply with the Financial Action Task Force or designate organisations, only to engage in interactive gambling licensed in the Republic, will apply.
Other control measures include the requirement that service providers may not convert any funds in a player account into any other form of value, thereby limiting opportunities for money laundering. The interactive gambling service provider has an obligation to report suspicious and illegal activities. The provision for control systems will be prescribed in the regulations to ensure compliance.
With regard to enforcement and compliance and given the borderless nature of interactive gambling, it is our view that the enforcement and the administration of this Bill should be at a national level. In support of that principle, the National Gambling Board is the competent institution to ensure compliance with the National Gambling Amendment Bill and conditions of license. The board will be required to supervise and enforce compliance by licensees with the Financial Intelligence Centre Act requirements.
It will be expected of the National Gambling Board to conduct inspections in respect of interactive gambling websites and premises where equipment and software are located. The National Gambling Board may revoke or suspend licenses for noncompliance, and as part of corporate governance may delegate some of its enforcement and compliance powers to the provincial licensing authorities.
As already alluded to, the Bill provides for the licensing of interactive gambling and these licenses are to be issued as national licenses due to the borderless nature of the activity. The types of licenses provided for in clause 26 of the Bill relate to operators, manufacturers, suppliers or maintenance providers of interactive gambling software and equipment.
Finally, there are a number of other important provisions. In this regard, the Bill will provide for the imposition of taxation, which will be catered for in a separate process that involves National Treasury and the Minister of Finance. It is our view that taxation will be optimised to create a level playing field, and at the same time be used to curb the proliferation of gambling.
Furthermore, it is important to note that interactive gambling will not be treated differently from land-based casinos and other forms of gambling, in terms of licensing conditions and other requirements. I must also highlight that due to the nature of this form of gambling and the advent of technology, among other reasons, a lot of detail will be provided for in the regulations.
In conclusion, let me once again thank the Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs for their guidance and support in aiding us to steer the legislation in the right direction. I also wish to extend a word of gratitude to other government departments, key stakeholders in the industry, civil society, our provincial counterparts and members of the public in general for their inputs into these amendments and for their commitment to ensuring that this Bill is appropriate and effective. I commend this Bill to the Chamber. Thank you. [Applause.]
Sihlalo, Mphathiswa obekekileyo, malungu abekekileyo, namaqabane abekekileyo, ukuba besisesikolweni ngekuba ndithi ukhona lo mntu ukukrobisileyo, ngoba uninzi lweenkxalabo zethu uzichaphazele kwintetho yakho. Ngoko ke imibuzo yethu ebimininzi iyakutsho inciphe. Mhlawumbi iza kunceda namanye amaphondo ebengekaqondi. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[Ms N D NTWANAMBI: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, hon comrades, if we were at school, I would say that someone had allowed you to copy, because you have touched on most of our concerns in your speech. Therefore, our questions, which were many, have been reduced. Maybe, this will help other provinces, which have not yet understood.]
The Bill that is before the House now is not something new, as the Minister has said. It was debated three years ago, but it came back for amendments. Our committee agreed to the Bill with the amendments we have proposed. I must also say that of the nine provinces only seven voted in favour. Limpopo rejected the Bill, North West did not send its final mandate when we had our last mandate, and that was in North West, but constitutionally the Bill has been agreed to. We have a concern though - as I said, Minister - that even some micro loan finance banks, or "mashonisas", offer credit cards. We do not have to mention them by name.
Andizi kuba namali xa benokuthi mandibahlawule ngoku, ngenxa yokubachaza kwam apha, kodwa ke yinkxalabo yethu le yokuba nabanye oomatshonisa ngoku banamakhadi etyala. [I will not have the money, if they were to say I should pay them now, because of my mentioning them here, but it is our concern that some of the moneylenders now have credit cards.]
I must also mention that, as the committee, we are concerned about gambling, particularly, because poor people always have this hope of winning a big prize or millions of rand.
Njengabantu abacula umthandazo weNkosi yonke le mihla, sifuna ukungangeniswa ekuhendweni. Nathi masizincede singabi ngabantu abazikhohlisayo, sisinde nakwezinye izinto esingazi kukwazi ukuzenzela zona. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[As people who sing the Lord's Prayer everyday, we do not want to be led into temptation. We should help ourselves and not be people who delude themselves; and be saved from other things we would not be able to do ourselves.]
We want you, Minister, to include limits in the regulations, whether it is interactive gambling or land-based, as you have said. We also suggest that gambling sites be monitored, now and again, to caution gamblers on the dangers of gambling. We say this because many gamblers get so hooked that, sometimes, they are unable to free themselves. It might also be wise that, whenever one puts the card in the slot machines, big letters appear, informing one of the dangers associated with gambling habits.
The Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs supports the Bill with amendments.
Chairperson, I want to take this opportunity to thank members of the Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs for all the support and respect they gave me. I also wish to extend my gratitude to them because, when I was ill, they prayed for me. I also want to assure them that I am still a member of the committee and, though I might not be chairing it in future, I am still a member of it. I thank you. [Applause.]
Chairperson, the purpose of the National Gambling Amendment Bill is to amend the National Gambling Act of 2004, and to provide for the regulation of interactive gambling, so as to protect society against the assimilation of the demand for gambling. Currently interactive gambling provides little or no protection of players and there is uncontrolled exposure to minors, as well as persons vulnerable to gambling. Furthermore, the situation has resulted in a loss of revenue to the fiscus.
Interaktiewe dobbel is alle vorme van afstandsdobbel wat plaasvind via die internet of ander verwante vorme van telekommunikasie. Deur die voorgestelde wysigings aan die wet sal spelers moet registreer en kan spelers ook verhinder word om te speel. Indien dispute ontstaan tussen spelers en interaktiewe dobbelspelverskaffers kan dit opgelos word deur die Nasionale Dobbelraad.
'n Verdere welkome wysiging is die verbod op die adverteer van interaktiewe dobbel. Die DA steun hierdie wysigingswetontwerp sodat daar regulering kan kom in hierdie spesifieke vorm van dobbel. Baie dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Interactive gambling includes all kinds of gambling which takes place via the Internet or other related forms of telecommunication. Through the proposed amendments to the Act, players would have to register and players could also be barred from playing. If a dispute arises between the players and the interactive gambling providers, it can be resolved through the National Gambling Board.
A further welcome amendment is the prohibition on the advertising of interactive gambling. The DA supports this amending Bill so that there can be regulation in respect of this particular form of gambling. Thank you.]
Hon Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members, the ACDP strongly objects to the National Gambling Amendment Bill. This Bill was supposedly proposed specifically as a way to prevent crime and to protect players, problem gamblers and the underage and as an alternative to the currently completely unregulated environment.
The fact is that gambling in general does exactly the opposite of this. It creates more gamblers, addicts and helps crime to escalate by creating people who are desperate and who have to steal to support their habit.
Exploitation of the poor is not acceptable under any name or under any circumstance, especially not for profit. And, this particular thing, gambling, whether interactive or any other way, takes the food out of the mouths of children and of babies every single day. Fathers gamble their salaries away and they do not provide for their children.
Gambling is destructive and will not contribute to effective nation building and this is becoming more evident daily. It is being proven that gambling is unprofitable and cannot be defended in terms of benefiting the economy.
This new gambling culture encourages greediness and instantaneous gratification and undermines family life, the need to study, delayed consumption and parsimony. Gambling is a direct attack on the family and promotes prostitution, money laundering, gangsters, drug and liquor abuse, as well as divorce and abuse of women and children. This is a serious issue which government should not make light of. And how does gambling and all its ill effects socially create a better life for all? It does not.
A few years ago Blade Nzimande said, and I quote:
Gambling was undermining the struggle to eradicate poverty in South Africa and we call on government to review gambling and the lottery as these further impoverish the poor.
Also, this idea that gambling creates jobs is unsubstantiated. The lottery does not create wealth, rather it consumes it. If people did not spend money on gambling, they would spend on something creating more useful jobs in other sectors. Gambling encourages people to take chances and not to work hard, hence the ACDP wants to see a culture of hard work cultivated within our country.
Gambling contributes to poverty through the perception of a quick remedy, whether it is through marketing or simple desperation on the part of those gamblers.
The ACDP supports the statements made by Ben Turok, and I quote:
When you have a relative evil in society either we legislate to prohibit it or curb it, you don't legislate to encourage it.
To conclude, gambling, whether on the Internet or in the casino, is evil and must be done away with entirely. It eats away at the moral fibre of society. This Bill is not morally justifiable. Thank you.
Good afternoon, Acting Chairperson, Minister Mpahlwa and hon members, it is my privilege on behalf of the Western Cape Provincial Legislature to rise in support of the National Gambling Amendment Bill. We wish to place on record our appreciation to the staff and all those, including the hon members, who have worked so hard to fine- tune the Bill.
As we all know, gambling regulation is about ensuring that gambling activity is conducted in an environment of fairness and protection. I want to say that what we've just heard from the hon member from the ACDP is what we hear a lot in the provincial legislature: blame and complaints and very few solutions being offered.
It is interesting to hear a person of faith agreeing with the general secretary of the Communist Party. But, I think he should be very careful in misquoting Blade Nzimande.
What does the ACDP want - a ban on all gambling which will force it underground, force it into the hands of organised crime, and do away with any possibility of regulating an industry which we know has negative socioeconomic consequences which have to be ameliorated? This Bill seeks to ameliorate those negative and unintended consequences. It is easy to shout from the rooftops when you are a small opposition party. It is much more difficult to run the economy and the government of the country in a realistic way. So, let's get real.
We in the province had strong reservations about the Bill in its original form and because we value democracy and a strong exchange of ideas, we made no bones about that in our negotiating mandate. But, the Western Cape legislature, with the exception of the hon colleagues from the ACDP, is encouraged by the proposed amendments to the Bill. The Bill, as the hon Minister said, has been strengthened to provide for stronger regulation of interactive gambling and against the stimulation of the demand for gambling, the registration of players and the opening of player accounts, the conditions applicable to interactive gambling licences, and the protection of minors and other persons vulnerable to the negative effects of gambling. It is impossible to close every single loophole in that regard, and stronger measures are required for the prevention of gambling and its association with money laundering, as it had been mentioned, to try to secure compliance with the Financial Intelligence Centre Act legislation.
The province made substantial input into the processes that led to the finalisation of the Bill, which included comments on the interim report commissioned by the National Gambling Board on Internet gambling in South Africa and its implications, costs and opportunities. As you may also be aware this research report, published by the National Academic Centre for Research into Gaming, investigated the parameters within which Internet gaming should be legalised in South Africa and it forms the basis from which this Bill was crafted.
I shall not go into all the details of the inputs we made, save to say that we agree, or we would suggest that the regulation of Internet gambling is no small project. As it is rolled out and implemented, it will include the potential of abuse by end users. We also agree that it is important to do it right the first time, as the second time might not be so effective and there may be numerous unintended consequences.
Thirdly, we must ensure that the industry for which we will be responsible has been correctly positioned in the market but, more importantly, that our standard of regulation applicable to other forms of gambling such as LPMs, casinos and horseracing is not compromised. This implies not only that the use of the product should be attractive to consumers, but also that the integrity of the product, including the mechanisms to be used to process the delivery of that product, should be beyond question and able to withstand the practical rigours of everyday gambling activity.
With respect to advertising and the protection of children and other vulnerable persons, the Western Cape welcomes the further amendments to the Bill. Advertising for interactive gambling has now been restricted, a move we think requires further research, for the following reasons: In this province our license operators are spending very large amounts of money to advertise licensed gaming establishments on the radio, the print media, the outdoors and other forms of promotion. Is this huge advertising, on those forms of gambling, in sync with what we are doing in relation to interactive gambling, Minister Mpahlwa?
Lastly, we are of the opinion that allowing the regulation of Internet gambling in South Africa is likely to receive opposition, especially from land-based casino licensees who may call for protection. They may argue, and there have been signs in this regard that they may have made significant investments in this country in return for the exclusive rights to operate casinos and to benefit from the revenue streams which these activities generate. These concerns will have to be carefully managed and balanced against the socioeconomic goals, policy objectives and regulation imperatives that government is pursuing.
In conclusion, the issue of taxation remains a vexing point. It is important that provinces protect their... I am not sure whether someone with a better command of English will help me here, whether the plural of fiscus is fiscii or fiscuses. Provinces have to protect their revenue base and guard against revenue loss. The Bill in its current format incorporates a provision that, I quote, "tax in respect of interactive gambling activities will be imposed in terms of appropriate legislation". You may agree that this is risky and can mean anything for provinces.
At worst their current revenue base from gambling activities may be at risk. Careful consideration should be given in our opinion, and when the money Bill is crafted, in particular. I am mandated therefore to propose that the money Bill be crafted carefully in consultation with provincial treasuries. I thank you. [Applause.]
Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members, you must forgive the hon Douglas because he wasn't actually present in most cases when it was explained to us how interactive gambling would work.
Chair, the National Gambling Amendment Bill seeks to establish a lawful basis for the provision, regulation and control of interactive gambling within our country. I wasn't going to read my speech, but just so that you can get what it is really about, I am going to go through the whole speech.
We need to provide authorised forms of electronic communication for the purpose of interactive gambling. In so doing, we create a space to provide authorised interactive gambling in games systems and methods.
The main purpose of the Bill deals specifically with the exclusion of person-to-person betting exchange. Therefore, the Bill enhances the proper identification of players. Furthermore, it needs to record the identity, address and account information of players for protection purposes.
In-order control systems include the plan of organisation and procedures that are dealing with the safeguarding of assets and the reliability of financial records. This emphasises the fact that there must be no segregation or incompatible functions so that no employee is in a position to perpetrate and conceal errors or irregularities in the normal course of their duties.
One of the major strategies that are used in each control system is logistical, physical and information security. This includes approved programmes, applications, operating systems and databases, in order to be able to ensure data integrity, accuracy and completeness of data, particularly with regard to using credit cards. It strengthens the fact that there is one aspect of protecting people from being exploited by this system. We must reflect clearly that, in this country, we must have laws that protect our people from exploitation. We must realise that the main purpose of having these laws in gambling is to eliminate the involvement of people in gambling.
We have people who are already victims of gambling - their lives are destroyed by gambling - so we are fighting criminal activities that are taking place through gambling in South Africa in order to protect the next generation. In so doing, the whole process of licensing must be transparent, fair and open to allow new players in the industry.
In essence, this Bill's main focus can be looked at from an angle where it looks upon prevention of organised crime and puts more emphasis on the protection of our constitutional democracy against terrorism. This Bill needs to look, in particular, at capacitating or guarding socioeconomic development trends in this country in all spheres of government for economic development purposes.
I must state clearly that, as the ANC, we are clear at the end of the day that there are challenges that would need for us to be alert, act consciously, and have political management over them. Let me reflect that there are three fundamental challenges that we need to give more attention to. We need to look at the role this Bill will play with regard to economic development, facilitation of technological upgrading and sustainable human settlement and its impact on the transport system.
In conclusion, the above-mentioned challenges are not something new. What we need to do is to strengthen our muscle within the economic cluster to facilitate co-operation with regard to the various economic challenges. There is also a need for greater co-operation between government departments to deal with these matters in a progressive manner.
It has been one of the ANC's major strengths to deal with major challenges within our society in a constructive manner. We have been successful and managed, in doing so, to progressively bring about a strong growing economy in order to facilitate development in different spheres of our government. As the ANC, we support the National Gambling Amendment Bill. Thank you. [Applause.]
Chairperson, hon members, thank you for your participation in the debate. Of course, I think that the very nature of this subject will always produce conflicting views and will always produce a heated debate.
I want to begin by addressing myself to some of the issues that were raised by the hon Douglas from the ACDP. I am quite sure that - as impassioned a representation as was made when, as this Parliament, we considered the issues of how, as a country, we want to deal with the issue of gambling - at that time, part of the exercise was to weigh what the best direction to take is to deal with the legalisation of gambling, creating an environment in which you can regulate it, and protecting a society and people who would like to participate in gambling, or having to deal with the challenges of an illegal dispensation for which you then have to find the most effective ways of how best to regulate that.
I think that as a country we made the choice in 1998 when the legislation on gambling was drafted, debated and adopted by Parliament. So, what we are doing today must be seen not as our having a fresh debate around whether or not we should have gambling as a legal activity in South Africa, but whether we are actually completing the process that was initiated then. At the time when the main legislation was drafted, debated and adopted, it just proved too difficult also to deal with the issue of Internet gambling. Therefore, a provision was built into the legislation to say, within two years of the main legislation being enacted, an amendment must be introduced that would then deal with the issue of Internet gambling. This is what we are doing today.
I felt like asking the hon Douglas whether he watches any movies, because movies and artistic productions - whether in the form of music or paintings - are things that reflect our reality. Artists are people that recreate our reality and make us look at ourselves. One of the things that you see when you watch some of these artistic productions, where an environment of illegal gambling is portrayed in a movie or a book, is the violence that goes with that in an uncontrolled environment. If you have watched the movie City of God, you'll know that the level of violence that you see there is something totally unthinkable. You just can't contend with the kind of violence that is to be found in certain parts of the underworld. So, I am saying the choices that we have to make also have to contend with some of that kind of reality.
I was also reminded, as the hon Douglas was addressing us, of the legislation on the choice on termination of pregnancy. The fact that we pilot legislation like that doesn't mean that, as people or as an organisation, we promote the issue of termination of pregnancy, but rather that we recognise that many young lives are lost in backstreet abortions that happen. So, in doing this, we are creating a safer environment within which this has to happen and we also say, at the same time, have education programmes that teach young people to protect themselves if they do want to engage in this kind of activity. These are things that must be properly understood and contextualised. I was reminded of all of those things as I was listening to the hon Douglas.
Further, let me say to the hon Ntwanambi that the issues around uMatshonisa and credit cards are matters that we have to deal with in terms of the National Credit Act. That is the primary legislation through which we seek to regulate and control that activity that takes place between a financial institution of whatever kind and a borrower that approaches it.
Through that legislation, we impose certain behaviours on the part of both borrowers and lenders, because it is important for the lender to also have a better understanding of the circumstances of the borrower so that you are able to make a decision or a judgment on the level of credit that that borrower can actually sustain. We equally impose certain obligations on the borrower himself or herself to provide correct and true information to the potential lender.
So, it is in terms of that that we have to regulate on issues about the issuing of credit cards and the extension of credit to borrowers. However, the proliferation of plastic money is a matter of concern in our society, and we are just suggesting that it is through that legislation that we should try to deal with it.
Of course, we already do it in this legislation, and we will do so also in the regulations. We are dealing with the issues of how we create protection. There is the issue, for instance, about limits. Already, we are saying that there will have to be limits on accounts by players. There will have to be electronic monitoring systems that will register the playing patterns and behaviour, and there will have to be notices on the screens that alert people to the issues of gambling problems and that there are remedies. You can go for treatment or you can embark on a voluntary withdrawal from participation. So, those are things that are already catered for. They will be strengthened when we introduce the regulations.
I think, on the issue of advertising that was raised by the hon Strachan we are willing to do further research to look deeper into this issue, but I think that part of the attempt - I think in the earlier stages - was to prohibit this, and this is something which arose because of the nature of this activity. You see, if one walks into a casino, people see you physically going into a casino, and even the people that work there would be able to identify that this person is here every day and this person, whenever he or she enters this premises, only leaves this place when their last cent has been swallowed by the machine. They can even begin to notice changes in the behaviour of the person, but with Internet gambling you can sit in your own little corner at home and nobody sees you.
So, it is because of the nature of the activity that, I think, there was a feeling that you have got to outlaw advertising in terms of this type of gambling. Of course, we had to contend with the issues that were correctly identified by this House which was to say that: Will this stand the test of constitutionality if you say you prohibit advertisements for Internet gambling when you actually allow advertising for other forms of gambling?
So, one would hope that the dispensation is one that is equitable, albeit one that also seeks to deal with the fact that this is a very specific type of gambling. We are willing to look further at that issue so that we can see, when we do the regulations, if there are things that we can do that would help us to strengthen where we need to strengthen and so on. Thank you for that intervention.
I think, regarding the issue of taxation, we would have to look at the experience also in terms of the main Gambling Act in relation to the land- based casinos because, as we have the dispensation currently, provinces are able to generate revenue from the fact that they license casinos. I think that we would have to adopt, perhaps, the same kind of approach. We would certainly also, as the Department of Trade and Industry, be having a particularly keen interest, as Treasury would be dealing with that legislation.
Let me thank all of the members. I think I have dealt with most of the issues. I had hoped that I could respond to some of the issues you raised, but thank you very much to everybody. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
That concludes the debate. I shall now put the question. The question is that the Bill be agreed to. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their province's vote.
In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. Is there any province that wants to make a declaration? In the absence of any we shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour, or against, or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?
Oos-Kaap ondersteun. [We support.]
Free State?
Ondersteun. [We support.]
Gauteng?
Siyaxhasa. [We support.]
KwaZulu-Natal?
Ondersteun. [We support.]
Limpopo?
Limpopo e ganana le yona. [Limpopo does not support.]
Mpumalanga?
Mpumalanga supports.
Northern Cape?
Ons gryp hom vas, Meneer. [We support.]
North West?
North West in favour.
Hon members, on record there is a statement that was made earlier, unless I am misguided, hon Chief Whip, that Limpopo is objecting and North West has no final mandate. So, I don't know, hon member, can I get your guidance on the matter? How do you vote when you do not have a final mandate?
Chairperson, I have contacted the authorities. I got their permission that I must vote in favour. Thank you.
Hon members, this is a very tricky issue. I cannot count North West. I will make a ruling, because I do not want to set an incorrect precedent on such a substantive procedural issue. On that basis I really want to waive North West. We will make a ruling as to whether its vote can be counted on this particular issue, or not. Can I then proceed to the Western Cape?
Die Wes-Kaap ondersteun. [The Western Cape supports.]
On that basis we have seven provinces that have voted in favour. Limpopo has voted against and we have excluded North West. I therefore declare the Bill agreed to in terms of section 65 of the Constitution. [Applause.]
Bill accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.