Hon Chairperson, yes, government intends to revise the funding formula for municipalities to implement the differentiated approach. This is part of an overall review of funding for local government that includes a review of the local government equitable share, and various other conditional grants to municipalities.
In the short-term we sought to develop a policy framework for municipal funding differentiation. We had targeted to do that by March this year. This has since been revised to February 2012. In the medium-term we will consult with stakeholders on the proposals for the review of the funding framework for municipalities.
These consultations will culminate in an intergovernmental functional and fiscal summit and, ultimately, a submission which will be considered by Cabinet. This work should be completed by February 2013. In the long-term, the focus will be on the implementation of a differentiated municipal financial management system that will commence in the 2013-14 municipal financial year. I thank you very much.
Chairperson, Minister, in your response you said that the short-term intervention was to develop a policy framework for municipal differentiation by March 2011. I just want to know what made the department miss the deadline and what led to the revision of the deadline to February 2012. Also, will there be any adjustment to the municipal infrastructure grant and local government equitable share formula, taking into consideration the Census 2011 data? I thank you.
Hon Chairperson, the target date had to be revised, because, in the first instance, the process of developing the framework policy is a consultative process. Getting the stakeholders to make inputs into the process resulted in a need to revise the date because the target date of March 2011 could not be met. At the end of the day, when the differentiated approach is implemented, the impact will definitely result in a different approach to dealing with the issues relating to the funding of the municipalities. I thank you very much.
Chairperson, Mr Minister, I'm very pleased to hear that you are, in fact, in favour of the differentiated approach. Could you please tell us what the nature is of the current problem and why it is that you want to move to a differentiated approach? We think that it is a good idea, but we may have different reasons for liking it.
Secondly, with regard to the function that you will be having with all the stakeholders in February next year, is this going to be a public or a closed function? If it is going to be a closed function, or will the information be made public? Thank you.
Chairperson, the proposal is meant to address the challenges identified in the funding mechanism. The consultation process is still on. At this moment, no-one can indicate with certainty which challenges are for a differentiated approach and which ones are not. When we hold these consultations at another summit to be held later, the views of the different stakeholders will be tested. The issue here is that in a democracy, when government identifies challenges, we may want to consider a particular mechanism to deal with those challenges. I believe that the hon member is aware that in the funding of the municipalities there are challenges to which we need to apply our minds.
We have to consult and take on board the views of the stakeholders. At that point - as the hon member is saying that I personally seem to favour this approach - those in favour of the approach, including the hon member, when they finally make inputs, will know exactly where they stand. We have to drive an approach to find a mechanism that will address the challenges identified so far. Thank you very much, Chairperson.
Mr Chair, the best way of ensuring that there is a sufficient amount of money for municipalities is by making sure that it is not wasted. Could the Minister undertake to take steps to stop the municipalities from wasting money, for example on parties, such as the million rand party that was thrown to mark the inauguration of the new council in Emakhazeni which encompasses the small towns of Belfast and Dullstroom?
Another form of waste is on international travel, such as the R250 000 spent on taking the mayor of the dysfunctional Mbombela municipality, five councillors, and the major's bodyguards to the United Kingdom and the United States of America, including a visit to Disney World. Minister, before implementing the new funding models, will you stop this type of wastage? How will you do it; and when will you do it?
Hon Chair, we would definitely address the hon member and this honourable House if the hon member were to raise a question that calls on the Minister to address him on the issue of how he and the department will deal with the question of wastage. The question that we are dealing with is all about the introduction of the differentiated funding formula. If we were to have a different question like the one that the hon has just raised, we would definitely deal with that question. Thank you very much.
Chairperson, hon Minister, it is an accepted fact that many municipalities derive most of their funding through electricity sales. In fact, this creates perverse incentives to push for energy efficiency within the municipalities if it is a threat to their revenue base. We also recognise the fact that there is a R40 billion backlog in electricity distribution and the maintenance network in the country. Is this conference going to address that particular issue because it feeds into the issue around how the municipalities are funded, and how we change that formula particularly in terms of taking away the perverse incentives around the energy inefficiency? Thank you.
Chairperson, obviously, when we deal with the questions related to an alternative funding mechanism, we will also have to make an impact in terms of how the actual spending takes place. The issue of the majority of the municipalities generating their funding from the electricity sales is a concern to us. When we look at this challenge, the stakeholders will not be limited to talk only about it. We will have to talk about how we deal with all these challenges.
The hon member would remember that this approach of working towards a differentiated funding mechanism is also taking place at the same time as other transformations; for instance, in the area around the electricity distribution industry. Therefore, participants will not only be limited to the issue of generating funding from electricity sales. Thank you very much.
Steps to be taken against senior public servants for nondisclosure of financial interests
268. Mr G G Hill-Lewis (DA) asked the Minister for the Public Service and Administration:
What steps will he take against senior public servants who have still not declared their financial interests? NO4192E
Chairperson, the Public Service Regulations of 2001 requires that every designated employee must not later than 30 April of each year make a disclosure to the relevant executive authority of the particulars of all his or her interests that can be registered in respect of the period of 1 April of the previous year to 31 March of the year in question.
The executive authority in turn is required to file copies of all these financial disclosure forms with the Public Service Commission by not later than 31 May. The objective of the financial disclosure framework is to manage the potential conflicts that may exist between a senior manager's private interests and his or her public responsibilities. The framework is also aimed at ensuring that actual conflicts of interests do not occur within public institutions.
Hon members, this framework is one of the government's key measures to manage the risk of corruption in the public service. All senior public servants who have failed to declare their financial interests are deemed to have contravened the Public Service Act and the public service regulations.
It is the duty of the heads of the departments to ensure that disciplinary actions are taken against these employees. In a case where a head of department fails to take action, the law requires that the executive authority responsible for that particular department should take action against the head of departments.
Now, a report identifying those who have made such transgressions has been tabled to the Governance and Administration Cabinet Committee in terms of 16(a) section 16(a)(3) of the Public Service Act. Thank you.
Chairman, I congratulate the Minister on his appointment and on his return to this department. The Minister will note that the Western Cape is the only province where 100% of public servants have declared their financial interest. This is because the Western Cape has the necessary political well and sound management to ensure that this happens. Without enforcement and firm consequences for those who continuously don't declare this requirement is just another onerous burden on civil servants.
Chairperson, as the Minister has said it is the responsibility of the Ministers and the members of the executive councils, MECs, to ensure that their departments are held accountable for the declarations and to take action if they do not, I would like to ask the Minister what he has done to get his colleagues in the Cabinet and in the provinces to make sure that each of them has taken responsibility and ensured that all of their senior managers have declared their interests. This might not make the Minister the most popular person in Cabinet meetings. [Time expired.]
Chairperson, hon member, thank you very much for that. Let me say that that certainly is an example that we should try to get as a standard practice in the public service. Unfortunately, what happens is that sometimes departments comply 100% and the next year you may get some errant public servant and it results in them falling below the percentage target. If we can get the public service in each of the departments to comply 100%, that is the target we should be aiming for.
Now, as to what we are doing about correcting those who are making these kinds of misdemeanours, we make absolutely certain that the executive authorities in Cabinet are informed by a Cabinet memorandum of where these indiscretions are and we exhort them to take action.
House Chair, can the Minister confirm on whether the report that has been tabled in the Governance and Administration Cabinet Committee in terms of section 16(a)(3) of the Public Service Act relating to this question contained the following that can facilitate further oversight, namely, numbers of those who have transgressed; where are they located in this system in terms of the departments; head of departments, HODs, whom they are accountable to; and specific actions that have been taken by those HODs? Thank you.
Chairperson, the Minister can confirm that the report that has been submitted to the Cabinet committee provides all the details that the hon Minister has referred to. It specifies the number of senior public servants who did not submit their financial disclosures and these are broken down by departments and by provinces.
Chairperson, also from our side congratulations to the Minister for his new task that lies ahead. I just want to ask, his predecessor identified a weakness and in fact proposed that there should be a code of ethics that should be introduced and the legislative proposals committee were considering bringing in some additional steps to curtail conflicts of interest by public officials. However, we were informed that it would soon be addressed through the necessary legislative provisions and we are keenly looking forward to the tabling of such proposals.
When would that be due; when is his department going to be ready with that? If not, clearly there was a misunderstanding and there was also wrong information given to the committee when they had a joint session with Public Service and Administration Portfolio Committee that such measures would soon be introduced to curtail any of such conflicts of interest in engaging with the state in businesses. Thank you.
Chairperson, I thought that was another question. I think that the hon member should watch this space, because the work on that particular matter is being completed.
Chairperson, Minister, I concur with my colleagues in congratulating you on your new appointment and welcome you back to the portfolio committee. We are looking forward to working with you.
Minister, you said that one of the steps that you take is to inform your colleagues about noncompliance in this regard. However, what should be of concern to you is that some departments - and I think the Department of Agriculture here - have repeatedly not complied over several years. What action will you take to ensure that these departments that do not comply year after year do so in future?
Chairperson, hon member, I think that we have to understand that the responsibility does in fact lie on the executive authority of each department to take the necessary action. My responsibility is to ensure that the executive authorities are aware that this in fact is so and if there is someone in their department who has not complied that they are informed about it and that is what we do. We shall continually do that and exhort our colleagues to take the necessary action in terms of the law.
Particulars regarding activities of, and successes achieved by Special Anti- Corruption Unit for the Public Service
248. Mr A J Williams (ANC) asked the Minister for the Public Service and Administration: With reference to the previous Minister's reply to question 1827 on 19 August 2011, (a) what (i) successes have been achieved by the Special Anti-Corruption Unit for the Public Service which was launched on 25 November 2010 to assist government departments with managing corruption cases from investigation to conclusion, (ii) progress has been made by the unit in its attempts to eradicate corruption in the Public Service and (iii) what are the relevant details of the latest activities of the unit to deal with corruption as at the latest specified date for which information is available? NO4037E
Hon House Chairperson, with reference to the question on what successes have been achieved by the Special Anticorruption Unit for the public service, I can report that the Public Service Anticorruption Unit has forged partnerships with the Special Investigation Unit, the Hawks, and the Department of Defence and Military Veterans in the areas of establishing joint investigation teams into several allegations of corruption-related to misconduct by the public servants.
The unit has also concluded a feasibility study, recommending - this recommendation has come through an Interdepartmental Committee - that, to expand the scope of its capacity, it be established as a government component to effectively deal with such investigations and disciplinary hearings of corruption-related misconduct in the public service.
With regard to the successes that have been enjoyed this far, the unit has been responsible for completing its investigations in 30 cases, where preliminary investigations have now been completed and forensic investigations have now been instituted. In a further eight special cases involving four different departments, this has resulted in R130 000 being recovered in one particular instance. In one department, five further cases have led to further investigations which are now about 60% complete.
Regarding a further set of investigations involving 300 referrals from the Presidential Hotline, 35% of these have been referred to the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. Further progress with respect to the developments in the Southern African Customs Union, Sacu, involves the development in special case management system, the protection of whistle blowers by establishing co-operative mechanisms with the office witness protection. The unit has been successful in establishing its own accommodation premises which are now being cleared up for security in Pretoria, and it has engaged in information sharing with the office of the Public Service Commission and the Presidential Hotline.
The Public Administration Leadership and Management Academy, which is our training academy has successfully concluded the training of 16 presiding officers on the subject of cross-examination and questioning techniques.
Chairperson, thank you, Minister, bearing in mind that the South African taxpayer loses billions of rands annually to corruption, is there any plan to increase the resources allocated to the Public Service Anticorruption Unit in order to expand the unit? Thank you.
Chairperson, thank you hon member, I think that there is no doubt that we all realise the importance of this particular unit. Seeing that it has just only been established, I think it is important that the unit gets its feet off the ground and really gets stuck into its work, and then we can evaluate its progress and establish whether or not we should be expanding it.
Right now we have taken an important decision which has come as a result of a recommendation by an interdepartmental assessment committee to establish Sacu into a specialised government component. We have now made an application to National Treasury to obtain more funds so that we may expand this unit considerably more than when it was just a pilot project in a department, so that its capacity to deal with combating corruption in the public service can, in fact, be enhanced. Once we have evaluated that, we would be able to say, quite conclusively, how this institution will network with other agencies that are charged with the same task of combating corruption in the public service. Thank you.
House Chair, thank you, it is nice to have an Anticorruption Unit, but if there are no consequences, corruption will continue as normal. If you live in the Free State, you will be aware that there is a newspaper called the Free State Times; almost every Friday, it literally reports something about the premier and corruption in that particular office. [Interjection.]
Hon House Chairperson, does the member know that there are information peddlers who may plant negative stories ... [Interjection.] How can we rely on newspaper reports in the House?
Hon member, take a seat. Continue hon member.
Chairperson, sometimes it does not help to take people like these seriously. The issue is that, in that particular province, there are weekly reports about corruption. In Limpopo, the Department of Transport has contracted an engineering firm to manage their budget, which is really very problematic. How does the government allow an engineering company which has got interest in building roads to manage their budget? What I want to know is whether or not the Minister is willing to intervene, particularly in Limpopo, to ensure that this type of practice stops?
Hon House Chairperson, I was trying to understand what the point in that question is. Is the question about whether or not the Minister will intervene? The answer is no, because it is the responsibility of the respective authorities to intervene to combat corruption. It is not the task of the Minister for the Public Service and Administration. But, if your question was - as I thought I heard you say- that there are no consequences for corruption, I would like to urge that the hon member does not get involved in any such act because he will soon discover what the consequences are. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
Chairperson, Minister, since 2001, we have had several units or exercises to combat corruption, the National Anticorruption Forum, various anticorruption summits, the anticorruption interministerial committee, and so the list goes on. Despite all these efforts, corruption remains a cancer destroying the public service and effective service delivery. Now we have got the Special Anticorruption Unit.
When will you, Minister, as the new Minister for Public Service and Administration enforce adherence to the rules and regulation laid down by these units and fire dishonest public servants?
Chairperson, hon member, I think it is the collective task of all of us to work ever more diligently and harder to combat corruption wherever it exists, either be in the public service or in the private sector. That is something that I think we all hold together as a serious commitment. I can say to you that we will certainly apply the law if public servants who are responsible for corruption are found through due process to be guilty of such corruption; they will most certainly be terminated.
Chair, thank you very much. I just have to ask the Minister: following the last statement, if there is certainty that people will be charged and prosecuted, what does he make of the fact that there are thousands of public servants who have had the public grants they stole converted into loans? Because that does not sound consistent with the statement he just made.
Chairperson, hon member, as far as I can recall, where there are definitive cases of public servants who have been responsible for such kinds of transgressions, there are prosecutions that have taken place.
Steps to ensure mainstreaming of issues relating to women, youth and persons with disabilities in their places of work
256. Mrs D M Ramodibe (ANC) asked the Minister of Women, Children and People with Disabilities:
Whether her department intends taking any steps to ensure that other government departments mainstream issues relating to women, youth and persons with disabilities in their places of work; if not, why not; if so, what (a) steps and (b) are the further relevant details?