Chairperson, we stand here today listening to the ANC ring the death knell of the Scorpions only because they can. This utterly self-serving move is being made in the total absence of any cogent argument from them as to why the Directorate. Special Operations should be disbanded and the only logical conclusion is that they are motivated by the desire to protect ANC members from any current and future corruption investigations.
We all know yet another member of the ANC NEC bit the dust last night. Communist and ANC Secretary-General Gwede Mantashe has stated that, "The only thing that the DA and the Scorpions have in common is their persistent hatred of the ANC." This makes it crystal clear that the ANC top structure opposes the DSO on the grounds of political expediency and that this decision has absolutely nothing to do with improving the criminal justice system.
We must factor in that the charges of corruption and defeating the ends of justice would not have been brought against National Police Commissioner Jackie Selebi had it not been for investigations carried out by the DSO.
The same is true in the case of the indictment that has been brought against the ANC President Jacob Zuma, which includes the taking of 783 bribes to the total value of R4,2 million over a ten-year period.
Now the ANC's resolution to disband the DSO not only displays a flagrant disregard for public opinion, but also ignores the Khampepe Commission recommendation that it be retained in its current form. South Africa cannot afford to be without an independent unit capable of conducting complex and high-profile investigations and seeing them through to successful prosecution.
The DSO is the last remaining institution that could possibly be effective in exposing corruption and dealing with complex investigations such as those related to organised crime. If we lose the DSO, we will lose this ability and allow criminal syndicates to contribute even more to our already dangerously high levels of organised crime. And, simultaneously, we will lose international credibility as investors would see that the government is not serious in combating crime, while globally crime fighters will shake their heads in utter disbelief at such a shortsighted step.
The DSO differs from the SAPS in that it makes use of a troika of activities, intelligence gathering, criminal investigation and prosecution taking place within one team. This powerful combination of skills and expertise, led by a qualified and experienced prosecutor, means that the DSO is able to conduct investigations that are solid and stand up in court. This is the reason behind its excellent conviction record of 94%.
The DSO is effective because of its prosecution approach. It's the very heart of the DSO. Now you intend to pull out the few staff members, who are the cream of the crop left in the unit you set out to destroy, and move them into the SAPS with its dismal prosecution levels. Not one of you has told the citizens of South Africa why you are so set on destroying such a success story instead of expanding it and having the SAPS learn from it while working with it.
Chairperson, today, again, we witness the final nail in the coffin of the Scorpions. The ACDP has been at the forefront in opposing the disbanding of the Scorpions. The matter we supported was to accept set recommendations of the Khampepe Commission and to keep the unit separate from the SAPS.
In our view the decision to disband the Scorpions was not motivated by the Scorpions having been unsuccessful. It was rather motivated by the fact that the Scorpions have been too successful, particularly in its investigation of high-ranking ANC members. We are mindful of the Scorpions' shortcomings, however, but believe that these shortcomings were adequately addressed by the Khampepe Commission's recommendations and those should have been incorporated into legislation.
We are extremely concerned regarding the impact that this disbanding will have on complex cases. We have already pointed out the Fidentia case with 73 000 applicants, orphans and widows, whom are affected by this case. As we've said, organised crime is a serious threat to South Africa; if left unchecked it could undermine the integrity of our whole country, especially since it promotes all facets of life and undermines government systems, including the whole criminal justice system.
Now, to illustrate this point, the Acting Head of the NPA warns that the collapse of just a few of the Scorpions' cases could bring South Africa's criminal justice system into disrepute; and the reckless disbanding of the Scorpions, as we are doing today, could devastate the whole criminal justice system. This is not our view but that of the Head of the National Prosecuting Authority.
At the very least, as we recommended, an interim investigating directorate should have been set up, as requested by the NPA, as a transitional process to ensure that certain complex and controversial cases such as Fidentia should not be compromised. It is outrageous that the Scorpions are being disbanded, in our view, to protect senior ANC members from being investigated, particularly considering the escalating and highly complex nature of organised crime in our country, which affects all of our constituencies, communities and members.
We cannot afford to lose highly experienced and trained investigators and analysts who would not be prepared to accept posts in the SAPS and who are now being drawn to the private sector.
To conclude, the Khampepe Commission stated in no uncertain terms that ... [Interjections.] It is inconceivable, friends and colleagues, in other words, it's unimaginable for a legislature to see fit to repeal the provisions of the NPA Act that relate to the activities and location of the DSO. What the majority party is doing today is what the Judicial Commission of Inquiry considered inconceivable in view of the high crime rate in South Africa. Therefore, the ACDP will not support this Bill. I thank you.
Sihlalo, igama lami nginguVelaphi wakwaNdlovu. Sihlalo, neNdlu eHloniphekile, cha, umthetho lo esingeke siwusekele, ngalezi zizathu: Okokuqala, sasho sathi kunesidingo sokuthi kufuneka sibenze bakwazi ukusebenza, hayi i-Hollywood style kodwa singabaqedi. Okwesibili, siyazi ukuthi kwenzelwani lokhu okwenziwayo. Ngakusho nangaleliya langa sivota sivotela wona lo Mthethosivivinywa, ukuthi noma singathini thina maqembu aphikisayo, uma sebenqumile osibanibani, kusuke sebenqumile. Ukuthi banquma kuphi, kusuke sebenqumile ... unganikini ikhanda Mhlonishwa ngoba ngizosuke ngikubize ngegama lapha.
Ngakho-ke uma sebekwenzile lokho, kusuke sebekwenzile lokho. Okwesithathu, kuyinkinga kakhulu kabi ukuthi sithi: into esebenzayo ayisebenzi siyibulale nokuthi siyilungise. Kufana nokuzala ingane ekhaya uyikhululise, uma ingalungile uyakhuluma nayo, uhlale nayo phansi ukwazi ukuyiyala yenze umsebenzi wayo ngokufanelekile. Kepha awuthi ngoba nakhu akuyona eyakho noma mhlawumbe awunandaba nayo obese ubeka ikhanda ngale bese uyinqamula intamo. Ngakho-ke asikwazi ukukwenza lokho, ngeke siwamukele lomthetho noma ningangibhekisa phansi ngekhanda. Ngeke kwenzeke lokho. (Translation of isiZulu speech follows.)
[Mr V B NDLOVU (IFP): Chairperson, my name is Velaphi Ndlovu. Chairperson, and this august House, we will never vote in favour of this Bill because of the following reasons: Firstly, we said that we need to employ people who know how to execute their duties, and not the ones who use Hollywood style. Secondly, we know why things are run in this fashion. I did mention even on the day we were voting on this Bill that, whatever we say as opposition parties does not matter; when the ruling party has decided upon something, no correspondence can be entered into. It does matter what they have decided upon, the fact that they have made their decision stands... do not shake your head hon member, because I will call you by name.
Therefore, once they do something it cannot be changed. Thirdly, it is a major problem for us to say that we rule out something, saying that it is not working when we have not tried to correct it. This is like bringing a child into this world; if the child is misbehaving you talk and offer guidance to it so that it can behave as expected. You do not behead a child because it is not yours or because you do not care about it. Likewise we cannot do that here, hence we vote against this Bill. You can point at me with your heads. It will never be passed.]
Agb Voorsitter, volgens Hansard, op die geleentheid van die instelling van die Skerpioene, het niemand minder as die agb Adjunkminister van Justisie, in sy toespraak, eintlik 'n aanprysing gehad vir die politieke partye in hierdie Huis wat politiek nie deel maak van die bekamping van misdaad nie. Tog, as dit kom by die ontbinding van die Skerpioene, dan is dit juis die ANC wat 'n politieke besluit geneem het om die Skerpioene te ontbind.
As ons byvoorbeeld gaan kyk na die 2002 nasionale konferensie van die ANC, sien ons dat hulle aanprysing gehad het vir die Skerpioene. Wat het die ANC destyds gedoen? Hulle het by hul nasionale konferensie gespog oor hoe goed hulle regeer, deur die prestasies van die Skerpioene op te haal. Daar vertel hulle vir die afgevaardigdes dat dit is hoe misdaad eintlik behoort beveg te word.
By hulle 2007 konferensie kom die ANC egter met 'n politieke besluit wat hulle nie eens by die konferensie motiveer nie. Hulle neem net 'n besluit en verklaar dat die Skerpioene ontbind moet word, omdat dit grondwetlik verkeerd is om Skerpioene te h, omdat die Grondwet bepaal dat daar slegs een polisiediens mag wees.
Maar die ANC weet mos hulle is verkeerd. Regter Khampepe het mos baie duidelik bevind en beslis dat dit nie ongrondwetlik is om die Skerpioene as deel van die Nasionale Vervolgingsgesag te gehad het nie. Daarom s die VF Plus dat die ontbinding van die Skerpioene 'n politieke besluit was wat gebaseer was op 'n verkeerde veronderstelling van die interpretasie van die Grondwet van Suid-Afrika.
Ek wil vir u s dat die sukses van die Skerpioene juis hul vervolgingsgedrewe ondersoeke is. Hulle kon daardie ondersoeke loods in uiters ingewikkelde, gesofistikeerde sake, want die misdadigers van Suid- Afrika het meer en meer gesofistikeerd geraak.
Ek wil vandag vir u s dat die nuwe agb Minister van Veiligheid en Sekuriteit die regte geluide maak. Dit wat hy in die openbaar en vir die publiek s, klink reg, asof hy regtig misdaad wil bekamp. Maar, hy het een groot probleem. Ek wil voorspel dat hy in die voetspore van sy voorganger, mnr Charles Ngqakula, gaan volg, deurdat hy dink hy iets kan doen, maar die beleid van die ANC gaan hom eenvoudig dwing om toe te laat dat misdaad eintlik net floreer.
Die besluit om die Skerpioene te ontbind het gewys dat u van die ANC, die regerende party, nie ernstig is om misdaad te bekamp nie. Daarom was dit 'n fout. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, according to Hansard, in his speech on the occasion of the establishment of the Scorpions, no less a person than the hon Deputy Minister of Justice, actually commended the political parties in this House for not making politics a part of the combating of crime. Yet, when it comes to disbanding the Scorpions, it is in fact the ANC who have taken a political decision to disband the Scorpions.
If we take a look at the ANC's national conference in 2002, we see that they had praise for the Scorpions. What did the ANC do back then? At their national conference they bragged about how well they were governing by bringing up the achievements of the Scorpions. They were telling delegates there that this is how crime ought to be combated.
But at their 2007 conference the ANC came with a political decision which they didn't even motivate at the conference. They just took a decision and declared that the Scorpions had to be disbanded because it was constitutionally incorrect to have the Scorpions, as the Constitution stated that there should be only one police force.
But of course the ANC knows that they are wrong. Judge Khampepe indeed clearly found and ruled that it was not unconstitutional to have the Scorpions as part of the National Prosecuting Authority.
The FF Plus therefore says that the disbanding of the Scorpions was a political decision based upon an incorrect assumption of the interpretation of the Constitution of South Africa.
I want to tell you that the success of the Scorpions lay in their prosecution-driven investigations. They could institute those inquiries into extremely complicated, sophisticated cases, because the South African criminals were becoming more and more sophisticated.
Today I want to tell you that the new hon Minister of Safety and Security is making the right noises. What he is saying in public sounds right, as if he truly means to combat crime. But he has one big problem. I want to predict that he will follow in the footsteps of his predecessor, Mr Charles Ngqakula, by thinking that he is in a position to do something, but the policy of the ANC is simply going to force him into allowing crime actually to flourish.
The decision to disband the Scorpions has proven that you of the ANC, the ruling party, are not serious about fighting crime. That is why it was a mistake. I thank you.]
Chairperson, I won't repeat what we said here when we were debating these two pieces of legislation.
Dit is baie interessant om 'n lid te wees van die ANC, want as mense hoof- of maagpyne kry, is die oorsaak altyd die ANC. [Being a member of the ANC is very interesting, because when people get headaches or bellyaches, the cause is always the ANC.]
Asizi kukuphinda esakutshoyo apha, baba uNdlovu, ukuba akukho nto intsha enize ngayo niliqela eliphikisayo. Nisathetha laa nto naniyithethile. Kuzanyiwe ngazo zonke iindlela ukuqinisekisa ukuba lo mthetho asiwuphumezi. Imibutho ephikisayo izame iinkundla zamatyala isebenzisa abantu bangaphandle, ibahlawula ukuze basise ezinkundleni zamatyala, yoyisakala. Izame ukufakela amagatya athile kule Mithetho iYilwayo mbini, kwiBhunga laMaphondo leSizwe. Sawakhaba loo magatya. Ngexesha esasithatha isigqibo apha kule Palamente siyi-ANC, sikunye nani, sayibeka elubala into yokuba asizi kuthenga buso.ngesigqibo sethu. Into engamandla apha kukuba silwe ubundlobongela , hayi ukuzithengisa. Ukuba kukho iqela elithi apha lo Mthetho uYilwayo siwuqulunqileyo siyi-ANC uza kwenza ukuba abantu bangabi ngakuthi kuba benoluvo lokuba awulunganga, loo nto siya kuyibona kulo nyaka uzayo ngoApreli. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[We are not going to repeat what we said here, hon Ndlovu, but you are not bringing anything new to the table as the opposition party. You are simply repeating what you had said before. Opposition parties tried by all means to make sure that we do not pass this Bill. They tried to stop us, using people from civil society by paying them to take us to court, and failed. They also tried to insert some clauses in these two Bills, in the National Council of Provinces. We rejected them. When we took a decision in this regard as the ANC, and other parties, we mentioned that we did so without fear or favour. The important thing here is to fight crime, not to market ourselves. Any party that claims that the Bill proposed by the ANC will make people turn against it because they will regard the Bill as not good, we will see about that next year in April.]
As the chairperson of the safety and security portfolio committee, it is so nice to have members of the opposition, especially the hon Kohler-Barnard.
Hayi, yimbongi leya! Uyakwazi ukuyenza intsomi emini. Ndiyakonwabela kakhulu ukuba kwikomiti enaye. Uya kuze aniculele, athethe ade agqibe ningakhange nimve ukuba utheni na; njengangokuya ebethetha apha. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[My, what a poet! She can tell folktales in daytime. I enjoy being in the same committee as her. She would talk - kind of singing - and talk, without making much sense, like she was doing here.]
The only problem she has is that when you talk about the national commissioner, she is not concerned about the position of the national commissioner. In her mind, you are always referring to Jackie Selebi when you talk about the national commissioner. [Interjections.] It is only Jackie Selebi. [Interjections.] There is no case whatsoever that is being dealt with ... ... eza kuvele iphelele emoyeni. Onke amatyala aza kuphathwa ngokufanayo, kubandakanywa nelikaJackie Selebi. Ukuba unengxaki noJackie Selebi, hamba uye kuyisombulula noJackie Selebi, ungazi nayo apha. Ndiyabulela, Sihlalo. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[... which will disappear in the air. All the cases will be treated equally including the one of Jackie Selebi. If you have a problem with Jackie Selebi, go to him and solve it, do not come here with it. Thank you, Chairperson.]
Division demanded.
Question put: That the National Prosecuting Authority Amendment Bill, as amended, be passed.
House divided:
AYES - 204: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Asiya, S E; Baloyi, M R; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bloem, D V; Bonhomme, T J; Booi, M S; Burgess, C V; Cele, M A; Chalmers, J; Chikunga, L S; Chohan, F I; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Davies, R H ; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Direko, I W; Dithebe, S L; Dlali, D M; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C; Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H; Fihla, N B; Frolick, C T; Gabanakgosi, P S; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gaum, A H; Gcwabaza, N E ; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Godongwana, E; Gololo, C L; Gore, V C; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M; Gumede, M M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A ; Hendrickse, P A C; Hogan, B A; Huang, S; Jacob, A C; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, C B; Johnson, M; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kasienyane, O R; Kekana, C D; Kgabi, L M; Khauoe, M K; Khumalo, K K; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Mabaso, S B; Mabena, D C; Madasa, Z L; Madella, A F; Maduma, L D; Mahlaba, T L; Mahlawe, N M; Mahomed, F; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Makgate, M W; Malahlela, M J; Maloney, L; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, D K; Manana, M N S; Martins, B A D; Maserumule, F T; Mashigo, R J; Mashile, B L; Mashishi, A C; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M; Matlala, M H; Matsemela, M L; Matsomela, M J J ; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Mbili, M E; Mdaka, N M; Meruti, M V; Mfeketo, N C; Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mkongi, B M; Mnguni, B A; Mnyandu, B J; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng , T R; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mohlaloga, M R; Moiloa-Nqodi, S B; Mokoena, A D; Mokoto, N R; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Moloto, K A; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morkel, C M; Morobi, D M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B G; Moss, M I; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpahlwa, M B; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mzondeki, M J G; Nash, J H; Ndlazi, Z A; Ndzanga, R A; Nene, M J ; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngcobo, N W; Ngculu, L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, W; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nogumla, R Z; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, R S; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, M D; Nyambi, A J; Nyembe, K K M; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Phala, M J; Pieterse, R D; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P M; Rasmeni, S M; Schippers, J; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A; Seadimo, M D; Sefularo, M ; Sekgobela, S P; Selau, J G; September, C C; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhidla, N N; Siboza, S ; Sikakane, M R; Sizani, S; Skhosana, D N; Skhosana, W M; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Swanson-Jacobs, J; Thomson, B; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van Wyk, A; Vundisa, S S; Wang, Y; Wright, F J; Zulu, B Z.
NOES - 55: Bekker, Dr H J; Bici, J; Blanch, J P I; Boinamo, G G; Botha, C-S; Camerer, S M; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Ellis, M J; George, D T; Groenewald, P J; Joubert, L K; Julies, I F; Kalyan, S V; King, R J; Kohler-Barnard, D; Labuschagne, L B; Lebenya, P; Marais, S J F; Mfundisi, I S; Minnie, K J; Morgan, G R; Mpontshane, A M; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Ndlovu, V B; Nel, A H; Nkabinde, N C; Rabie, P J; Schmidt, H C; Seaton, S A; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Sibuyana, M W; Sigcau , S N; Singh, N; Skosana, M B; Smuts, M; Spies, W D; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Swathe, M M; Trent, E W; Van Der Walt, D; Vos, S C; Waters, M; Weber, H; Woods, G G; Zikalala, C N Z.
Question agreed to. Bill, as amended, accordingly passed.