Chairperson, from the outset the DSO had been envisaged as a specialised unit to be independent of SAPS, and certainly not to replace it.
Now there has also been a Constitutional Court ruling that the term "single police" does not mean one police service. Furthermore, the Khampepe Commission found that the DSO should remain in the NPA. Given the international precedent for the DSO, as well as its impressive list of achievements, one wonders why the question to disband the DSO even arises.
Indeed, hon Carrim agreed with me that had the relevant Ministers for Justice and Constitutional Development and of Safety and Security, now safely ensconced elsewhere, actually done their jobs, we would never have had to go through the past 11-month debacle.
The DA said shutting down the DSO would drive the bulk of their specialists into the private sector, which it has and that we, as a country, would be collectively worse off for having lost the DSO without SAPS succeeding in improving its skills base. Indeed, we are about to do that.
Much has been made of intelligence gathering by the DSO and the process of their investigations, as though it were a crime but, of course, in terms of section 179(2) of the Constitution provision is made for an intelligence- gathering function for the DSO.
Is the solution for the executive's manifest failure ...
Chairperson, on a point of order: Is it allowed that members should essentially repeat themselves? Essentially, the speech, thus far, is a repetition of everything that was said in the earlier debate.
I have not repeated a single word, Chair.
Continue.
I will continue, thank you. Much has been made of the matter but, of course, in terms of section 179(2) of the Constitution provision was made for an intelligence-gathering function for the DSO. Now, is the solution for the executive's manifest failure to address the few problems, highlighted in the months of self-evaluation by the unit, the fault of the DSO?
Is the solution to disband the DSO, to remove all of the elements that rendered it so successful; is that what we are going to do? Despite the fact that the ministerial committee was a de facto entity from 2000, it did not meet. The Ministers failed to do their job. The mess is not the fault of the DSO. It is the fault of the executive to fulfil their responsibilities and the DSO is being blamed for their failure.
You have ignored the very reasons for creating the DSO, as an elite unit outside SAPS, in the first place. To even suggest that you intend to pool highly qualified specialists, who are civilians, into a ranking structure is a folly of monumental proportions and has resulted in a mass exodus of skilled personnel.
The SAPS has a very poor track record of anticorruption initiatives managed from within, with little or no progress or results. In addition, SAPS closed down the successful anticorruption unit in 2002 - thank you, Jackie Selebi - on the grounds of a lack of accountability and transformation. This closure created a void that the ICD has not been able to fill.
By combining all anticorruption authorities under one roof, SAPS becomes especially vulnerable to corruption from within. Who will police the police? More importantly, who will police the politicians? The answer is: No one. That, hon members, is what you are achieving here today.
Sihlalo, asiwusekeli lo mthetho ngalezi zizathu, akusho ukuthi yingoba amaphoyisa emabi. Cha! Asikhulumi ngamaphoyisa lapha, ungizwe kahle Nyambose. Asikhulumi futhi ngalawa maphoyisa asebenzayo sikhuluma ngaloku okwenziwa uKhongolose kulawa amanye amaphoyisa. Ngakho kufuneka kucace ukuthi asiwusekeli ngalezondlela, hhayi ngoba kukhona amaphoyisa amabi kwamanye. Laba bantu ngiyabona badle kakhulu ngelantshi.[Uhleko.] Okwesibili-ke Mhlonishwa kufuneka kucace ukuthi ngisakuphinda loku engikushilo yikuthi ingane mayonile ibekwa phansi kukhulunywe nayo, ayinqunywa ikhanda. Ngakho-ke uma kwenzeka kanje sesiyohlangana lapho siyohlangana khona bakithi. Asiwusekeli lo mthetho. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu speech follows.)
[Mr V B NDLOVU: Hon Chairperson, we do not support this Bill for these reasons: it is not that the police are bad. No! We are not talking about the police here; please understand me Nyambose. And we are not talking about those police who are doing their work, but we are talking about what the ANC is doing to other police. Therefore, it must be clear that we are not supporting this Bill due to those reasons, and not because there are those police who are worse than others. I can see that these hon members have eaten a lot during lunch. [Laughter.]
Secondly, hon Chairperson, it should be clear that I reiterate what I said before that, if the child has done something wrong, you sit down and talk with that child, you do not behead her. Therefore, if things happen like this, then we shall meet hon members. We do not support this Bill. Thank you.]
Chairperson, may I refer you to section 179(2) of our Constitution which says the following -
The prosecuting authority has the power to institute criminal proceedings on behalf of the state, and to carry out any necessary functions incidental to instituting criminal proceedings.
Mr Landers, are you rising on a point of order?
I am, Chairperson.
What is the point of order?
Was the hon Kohler-Barnard misleading the House when she said section 179(2) gave the DSO the authority to collect intelligence?
Mr Landers, I'll study Hansard and rule accordingly. Are there any further declarations?
Chairperson, Izama-zama ayisebenzi namhlanje. [Chairperson, those who try to bypass procedures will not succeed today.]
We were dealing with amendments here from the NCOP. It seems as if Members of Parliament from the safety and security and justice committees have decided to take this opportunity to repeat what they have said before.
We have confidence in the SAPS, Ms Kohler-Barnard. You don't, but we have confidence in them. Your problem is - I repeat - you are obsessed with Jackie Selebi. That is your problem. You are obsessed with Jackie Selebi. You don't care about any other thing that is happening; your problem is Jackie Selebi. [Interjections.] Uthule wena andikwazi nokukwazi ke! [You shut up! I don't even know you.]
Chairperson, what we are saying is that the time is up. We are passing these laws; we are going to fight crime in this country.
Asisayi kuphatha sijonge ngasemva sizakuphatha sijonge phambili. Enkosi. [We are going to fight crime going forward, not going backward. Thank you.]
Chairperson, on a point of order: On two occasions during the past few minutes the hon Deputy Minister Mr De Lange has referred to Ms Kohler-Barnard as a liar, and that, sir, is unparliamentary.
Chairperson, on a point of order: The statement that the hon Kohler-Barnard made about the intelligence gathering is so palpably wrong and is so factually challenged that one can do nothing other than call her a liar. [Interjections.]
Chairperson, on a point of order!
Wait, we are already entertaining one point of order. [Interjections.]
If you will just keep quiet then I'll answer. Just sit down. [Interjections.]
No Chairperson, the point of order is that ... [Interjections.]
Sit down! [Interjections.]
No, you sit down! [Interjections.]
No, Mr Ellis, resume your seat! I'm listening to ... [Interjections.]
Chairperson, you are allowing him to make a statement. The truth of the matter is ... [Interjections.]
Mr Ellis, resume your seat! [Interjections.]
Mr Ellis, it's after lunch so you are very excited again. You obviously had something for lunch.
No, Deputy Minister, please address the issue.
Chair, I withdraw calling her a liar.
The hon Deputy Minister withdraws. Division demanded.
Question put: That the South African Police Service Amendment Bill, as amended, be passed.
House divided:
AYES - 209: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S E; Baloyi, M R; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bloem, D V; Bonhomme, T J; Booi, M S; Burgess, C V; Cele, M A; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan, F I; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Davies, R H ; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Direko, I W; Dithebe, S L; Dlali, D M; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C; Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H; Fihla, N B; Frolick, C T; Gabanakgosi, P S; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gaum, A H; Gcwabaza, N E ; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gololo, C L; Gore, V C; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M; Gumede, M M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A ; Hendrickse, P A C; Hogan, B A; Huang, S; Jacob, A C; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, C B; Johnson, M; Kalako, M U; Kasienyane, O R; Kekana, C D; Kgabi, L M; Khauoe, M K; Khoarai, L P; Khumalo, K K; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Mabaso, S B; Mabena, D C; Madasa, Z L; Madella, A F; Maduma, L D; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlaba, T L; Mahlawe, N M; Mahomed, F; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Makgate, M W; Malahlela, M J; Maloney, L; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, D K; Manana, M N S; Martins, B A D; Maserumule, F T; Mashigo, R J; Mashile, B L; Mashishi, A C; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M; Matlala, M H; Matsemela, M L; Matsomela, M J J ; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Mbili, M E; Mdaka, N M; Meruti, M V; Mfeketo, N C; Mkhize, Z S; Mkongi, B M; Mnguni, B A; Mnyandu, B J; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng , T R; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mohlaloga, M R; Moiloa-Nqodi, S B; Mokoena, A D; Mokoto, N R; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Moloto, K A; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morkel, C M; Morobi, D M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B G; Moss, M I; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpahlwa, M B ; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mzondeki, M J G; Nash, J H; Ndlazi, Z A; Ndzanga, R A; Nene, M J ; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngcobo, N W; Ngculu, L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, W; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J ; Njobe, M A A; Nogumla, R Z; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, R S; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N ; Nyambi, A J; Nyembe, K K M; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Phala, M J; Pieterse, R D; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P M; Rasmeni, S M; Schippers, J; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A; Seadimo, M D; Sefularo, M ; Sekgobela, S P; Selau, J G; September, C C; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhidla, N N; Siboza, S ; Sikakane, M R; Sizani, S; Skhosana, D N; Skhosana, W M; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Sunduza, T B; Surty, M E; Swanson-Jacobs, J; Thomson, B; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van Wyk, A; Vundisa, S S; Wang, Y; Wright, F J; Zulu, B Z.
NOES - 55: Bekker, Dr H J; Bici, J; Boinamo, G G; Botha, C-S; Camerer, S M; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; George, D T; Joubert, L K; Julies, I F; Kalyan, S V; King, R J; Kohler-Barnard, D; Labuschagne, L B; Lebenya, P; Marais, S J F; Mdlalose, M M; Mfundisi, I S; Minnie, K J; Morgan, G R; Mpontshane, A M; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Ndlovu, V B; Nel, A H; Nkabinde, N C; Rabie, P J; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Schmidt, H C; Seaton, S A; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Sibuyana, M W; Sigcau , S N; Singh, N; Skosana, M B; Smuts, M; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Swathe, M M; Trent, E W; Van Der Walt, D; Vos, S C; Waters, M; Weber, H; Woods, G G; Zikalala, C N Z.
Question agreed to.
Bill, as amended, accordingly passed.
I've been informed that the Third Order will stand over.
Third Order stood over.