Madam Speaker, the wave of violence against immigrants in our country that started on 11 May this year, came as a big shock to the majority of the people of our country. As I have said before, these events have indeed shamed our nation and we have to ensure that such crimes do not recur.
On 14 May, a ministerial task team was set up to investigate the nature and possible causes of the attacks in Gauteng and, later, other provinces. That ministerial team has interacted with its counterparts from the relevant provinces and work continues to understand these issues fully. That ministerial task team will report in due course.
At the same time, however, the South African Police Service has made an extensive investigation based on the arrests and compiled a report on the causes of attacks on foreigners. This report covers a period from 2005 when various towns in the Free State were affected by service delivery protests, or what were called service delivery protests, which among other things, resulted in attacks on businesses owned by Pakistanis and people from Bangladesh.
From that time up to the recent violence against foreigners, the report compiled by the police says those who had been involved in the violence, gave the following as reasons for these attacks. Let me emphasise this, Madam Speaker, this is what was said by people who had been arrested and interrogated by the police, and that doesn't necessarily reflect the truth.
What they say is that the following are amongst some of the reasons for these attacks: that there is a perception that foreigners are responsible for the high levels of crime; that foreigners take up jobs that should be reserved for South Africans; that South African businesses, primarily within in the informal settlements, are not profitable due to foreign-owned businesses offering products at lower prices and remaining open for longer hours; that foreign-owned businesses trade in stolen and counterfeit goods, thus allowing them to sell their goods cheaper; that the RDP houses are being allocated to foreign nationals by corrupt municipal and other officials; that foreign nationals are accessing social services, social grants, health care, and so on; and that local South African women prefer foreign nationals as they are able to spend more money on them than the locals do. [Laughter.]
Now, I am talking here about people who have been arrested because they had been involved in the violence and when the matter was raised as to why they attacked those people, they said that these were the reasons.
The fact of the matter is that we have to attend to all of these matters - whatever their truth or otherwise - so that no-one uses these as reasons to engage in unacceptable behaviour. Again, it is clear that we have to continue addressing the socioeconomic challenges as part of an all-round response. Indeed, in many areas affected by these attacks, it is clear that competition for resources such as housing, entrepreneurship and employment has been cited as the main reason for this unacceptable behaviour.
Further, it is also clear that these attacks were in many instances perpetrated by criminal elements, at times using the reasons given above to engage in criminal activities. In this regard we must reiterate that whatever grievances any South African may have, this cannot be any justification to murder, pillage, or destroy property. We are, indeed, investigating all of these matters, taking into account that each area affected has specific attributes that should be dealt with in their particular region. When this work has been completed, we will ensure that the lessons from this experience are communicated to the public. It is better for all of us to ensure that it does not recur.
Let me mention, for instance in this regard, some of the Somali traders have been saying to us that perhaps one of the things that needs to happen, is that there needs to be better regulation of the opening of the small spaza shops. In their experience, sometimes you get too big a concentration of spaza shops in an area and that, because of the intensity of the business competition, you then get this kind of consequence. Let's regulate this better - I am saying that some of the Somali traders are saying that - so that you are able to have small shops there which reflect the size of the market.
Of course, we are quite determined to ensure that the perpetrators of the violence are dealt with, and therefore special courts are being set up to speed up the prosecution of these people. Work is continuing to ensure that those temporary camps are properly equipped and everything else, so that, as much as possible, the people who are displaced are treated in as humane a manner as possible.
In that regard, I must thank all of the organisations of civil society that have participated in this process. In a sense what has happened raises, very sharply, these questions about social cohesion in our society.
Maybe the last thing I should say is that in the interaction of our officials with, for instance, the people who are at the Acacia camp in Pretoria, the message that has come from those people is that the attacks took them by surprise, because they had never sensed that there was any sense of hostility or antagonism between themselves and the communities within which they lived. So when this thing came, it came quite out of the blue, because the communities in which they live had never demonstrated any sense of xenophobia.
We always need to insist that what has happened in practice has in fact, whatever the correctness or otherwise of the reasons that had been stated by the people who have been arrested, opened a chance for looters and criminals. That really has been the focus of the attacks on the foreigners - to go for property. Indeed, many communities - the Zimbabwean community in Mamelodi for instance - are saying that they don't have any fear that they are going to be attacked, because their community is poor and has no property to loot. Indeed, no foreigners have been attacked in Mamelodi. It is, I think, critically important to focus on this matter of ensuring that the criminal elements in our ranks don't hide behind these notions in order to carry out the criminal activities which they have carried out. Thank you.
Allow me first, Madam Speaker, to thank the Presidency for organising this national tribute - in remembrance of victims of attacks on foreign nationals and South Africans - happening next Thursday. I think it is necessary that we, as South Africans, collectively express our remorse for the attacks on our fellow African brothers and sisters.
My follow-up question relates to the timing. The President indicated that it started on 11 May and that there was then a ministerial task team on 14 May, but the public impression is that it took government a very long time to respond. My question is: does it take government about 10 days, almost two weeks, to respond to a national crisis and are there any mechanisms in place right now to ensure that government would respond promptly if something like this should happen again? Thank you.
I have heard this before and to tell you the truth, hon Green, I haven't quite understood what that meant. The first government response, and it was immediate, was to intervene through the police to stop the violence. It didn't take 10 days.
I don't know why the police would not be counted as part of the government. [Applause.] You can ask the hon Charles Nqakula here. The matter was acted upon very quickly to say that these things are happening and that we have to respond with the necessary speed. I must say that, even with regard to Johannesburg, the Metro Police, and the municipality, also responded with very good speed. I don't accept this idea that there was some delay and government was paralysed and didn't know what to do. It is incorrect.
There are some matters that didn't prove very easy. For instance, as you are aware, people ran to the police stations, which is quite natural and, of course, police stations don't have accommodation for that kind of person. So you couldn't very well drive these people away to somewhere else; you had to arrange as to where they would go. Obviously that could not be done overnight. Indeed, there would be a delay about that; about the resettling of people wherever.
So I don't know. As soon as we had a clearer picture of the displacement of people, people immediately got together at the disaster management centre and stayed in contact, served within the task team and got into contact with the provinces to do all of the detailed work that was necessary. They asked: What resources do we need in order to deal with this? This is the size of the problem; this is where it is; what do we do?
I think with regard to this argument about a delayed response, you would have to tell me what the delay was. What was it that was done on Tuesday that could have been done on Monday? Then one could deal with it, but it is this general statement that I don't think is correct. It doesn't help us to solve this problem.
You know we have communities, hon Green. The whole disaster management system, the Gauteng province and the ministerial task team identify a location, for example, Midrand in Gauteng, where we can put a temporary shelter. Fine, the problem that arises then is that the communities around there object and say, "Don't bring these people here." But where should we take them? "Take them anywhere you like, but not here!" So, you then have to engage those communities in a discussion to get them to agree to move. Indeed, you may not have been able to set up the tents on Monday - not because you didn't want to, but because you had to respond to what the communities say.
I am saying that, as you can see, the charge of an unduly delayed response on the part of the government would have to be stated in more specific terms.
Did the police move too late? Starting with the attacks that took place in Atteridgeville in Ga-Rankuwa, was it possible for government to respond earlier? I don't think so. Why is "police response" not "government response"? Whose response is it if it is not government's response? It is government's response. It had to be the first step to say let's stop people being killed and attacked. That is the first thing, before you ask where you can settle them. Thank you.
I concede that this xenophobic issue is a complex one, but despite that, I feel that it is proper also to look at it from another angle: that of reintegrating the victims of xenophobia. In the light of that I want to ask how much thought has been given to this matter; has it also been assessed by the relevant authorities and state organs? If that has been done, is the situation being monitored consistently until normality is restored?
Secondly, you hinted about the prosecutions. I would like to have more clarity on whether or not perpetrators of these attacks have been identified. If so, have they been prosecuted or arrested? I thank you.
Madam Speaker, with regard to the second part of the hon Seremane's question, he might want to pose that question to the Minister of Safety and Security and discuss it with him in detail. Indeed, people have been arrested. People have been charged and some of the charges are: assault with the intent to cause grievous bodily harm; common robbery; armed robbery; arson; housebreaking; public violence; attempted murder; malicious damage to property; intimidation; and so on. And there are specific numbers of people who have been charged with those various offences.
Another challenge that we face is the number of bodies in the mortuaries in these areas of conflict. For instance, probably a week ago the position was that the bodies that were collected in the mortuaries in the areas affected by this violence were actually mostly those of South Africans. We had 21 South Africans, five Zimbabweans, 10 Mozambicans, one Somali and 25 unknown. Whether all of these deaths were as a result of the violence or some other criminal offence is amongst the things that need to be established.
Part of the problem that the police are facing with regard to this is that among the dead are people who are called "undocumented". Here is somebody who is dead. You take the fingerprints, but there is no record in the South African system as to who it might be. So you have to go around the particular townships and informal areas and ask if anybody can recognise the person. The body was picked up here, but who is this person? It is complicated work, but it has to be done. That is part of the reality.
Yes, certainly, people have been arrested and people have been charged. To speed up the process rather than feed them into the normal court process, it was thought that to communicate a strong message against these attacks, these special courts would be needed.
You are quite correct, hon Seremane, that one of the critical matters that we are attending to and monitoring is this issue of reintegration. With regard to that, I must say, that we do have some very good examples of something that we keep discussing. This is the matter of uniting our people to act in pursuit of important national objectives. For example, if you go to Diepsloot, you see the people in the communities are organising themselves and asking: "Can these people who were displaced from our areas please come back? We have had no fight with them. There is no hostility towards them. Whoever attacked them, it wasn't one of us. It is not us as a community." You get a community response. You get a municipal response, a provincial response and a national response. Indeed that process of reintegration is taking place and it is a critical part of this.
We are interested in making sure that we don't create semipermanent, exclusive encampments of foreigners because that would encourage hostility towards them. Some of them are saying that the sooner they return to where they come from, the better, particularly given that some of them were really taken completely by surprise. There had never been any tension between them and the communities within which they live. Yes, the integration process is taking place and it is an important part of this. We are indeed monitoring this and trying to move it forward, as quickly as we can.
Hon President, I am sure that it was a very difficult time for you, having to deal with these xenophobic attacks. I therefore want to thank you for your efforts. I have this saying: The more you do, the more trouble you will get into. So thank you for the trouble you got into. Hon President, in the aftermath of these attacks, I am confident that you will agree with me that the education of our communities is a priority, if we want to prevent this from happening in future. As the ID we have called on all leaders to ban the use of this word "makwerekwere" from our vocabulary. This word really only serves to divide our people further and does nothing for unity. I want to ask the hon President if he would also add his voice to this campaign to ban and forbid the use of this word and to classify the use thereof as hate speech. Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Yes, Madam Speaker, obviously this matter of the education of our communities is important. I think we must take certain things into account. Let me tell the hon member a story. Some people - South Africans - organised a meeting in Hammanskraal in the middle of all this violence and said, "Away with these foreigners", and for the reasons I read out earlier. They said they were thieves and this, that and the other. And it was the community that said: "If you don't stop talking that nonsense, we will beat you up. These people have never done anything. We live with them here very well and there is not going to be any such thing here in Hammanskraal. If you continue with that campaign of yours, we will beat you up." And so Hammanskraal had no such problem.
The reason I mention this, hon member, is because, as I was trying to say earlier, it is important to understand properly what the real causes of this thing were. If we identify the causes wrongly, we will provide solutions which won't solve the problem. Sure, we have to educate the communities, as you indicated, against xenophobia. That is very important.
We must also take into account that the people who killed and burned others, are people who acted with criminal intent. They might hide their criminality behind the issue about the foreigners, this and that and the other. It is important to deal with this.
I do not know when the hon member got to learn of this word "makwerekwere". [Interjections.] In the Home Affairs committee? Ok! [Laughter.] Yes well, this word has been in currency among the African communities ever since Inkosi Buthelezi was a 10-year old. [Laughter.] It didn't pop up now. It is an old word. You don't use it and you are not supposed to use it in the presence of the foreigners, you use it when they are not there. [Laughter.] It is not a good word. Where you have that expression now, it would be wrong to conclude that it is an expression of xenophobia. It is not. It has been around, I think, since the mines were opened and migrant labour came from around the region. It derives from an ethnic group in Zimbabwe, the Makorekore. It was translated as "makwerekwere". It did not result in attacks on foreign nationals. The portfolio committee might indeed discuss it, but I think we have got to go a bit deeper than that to deal with this. It may be that you can try, hon member, to attempt to forbid the name. I am not sure that you will succeed, but the use of the name itself hasn't historically produced these attacks on foreign nationals. I agree that it is not a good word. It should be stopped.
The Batswana in Botswana have an expression for Tswana-speaking South Africans, who come and stay in Botswana. They call them "batla ka sepore", those who come by rail. [Laughter.] You can go and tell the Batswana to stop using that word, but I doubt if they will stop it.
Thank you, Madam Speaker. Whilst there were a minority of people who were engaged in these unacceptable acts of violence, the goodwill shown and expressed by the majority of South Africans needs to be recognised. I would also like to concur with the comments that the President has made about the community of Diepsloot as it's part of the area where I do constituency work. My particular question to the President would be: What more can we do as South Africans to prevent such incidents from happening again?
I think the point that was raised by the hon Seremane concerning the issue of reintegration is important. We really have to push that, so that we do not have, as a kind of semipermanent feature of our country, these isolated communities of foreign nationals. The point that was made about the education of communities is also important; that is the issue about the mobilisation of communities to say that foreign nationals should come back and that those communities would protect them because there was never any fighting amongst them.
The work should be focused on those sorts of areas and it would be an important part of ensuring that this thing doesn't recur. We should also focus on attending to these other issues that are raised, some of which are legitimate, of people who come into the country illegally and then they get employed as they will accept rates of pay that South African workers wouldn't accept. They have to accept them because they are in a desperate situation. That results then in people saying: You are accepting low rates of pay and therefore keeping out South African workers.
That is something that we have to attend to. It is not the fault of the foreigners. It is the fault of our system. On the matter raised by the Somali traders - that we should not allow a situation where you get an oversupply of small shops in local areas - inevitably, that is going to result in conflict. We have seen that happen for instance with regard to the taxi conflicts. It is the same issue where there is insufficient regulation; you get particular routes oversupplied with taxis and it results in this kind of conflict. I think those are the specific matters that we need to attend to so that indeed, as you indicated, hon member, we don't allow this thing to recur. Government's stance iro meeting on global food crisis held at Food and Agriculture Organisation of UN
8. Mr F T Maserumule (ANC) asked the President of the Republic:
How does the Government assess the current offer from the developed world to agriculture in light of the past meeting on the global food crisis at the Food and Agriculture Organisation of the UN?