Madam Deputy Speaker, the reply to the question is as follows: With respect to Part 1, over the period of April 2008 to March 2009 the committee did consider and authorise arms sales transactions to a number of countries.
Since its assumption of duty on 21 July 2009, the current committee has considered and approved the 2008 National Conventional Arms Control Co- ordinating Committee annual report. This annual report was prepared in compliance with the provisions of section 23 of the National Conventional Arms Control Act of 2002. To that end this annual report covers the 2008 calendar year, as prescribed by section 23 of the Act.
The committee is in the process of tabling the 2008 annual report to Parliament. The countries and arms categories that are involved in these transactions are reflected in that annual report. In view of this, the House and hon members are requested to allow the tabling of the 2008 annual report to take place. Once this is done, the committee will be available to Parliament to discuss the contents of the annual report.
We answer in that fashion, Madam Deputy Speaker, because the list of transactions is extremely long and is in the annual report in full. Members of the portfolio committee have invited the chairperson of the control committee to appear before the portfolio committee on 2 September. The meeting is already on the committee timetable of meetings. Therefore the committee will have the opportunity to peruse and consider the full details of that report.
With respect to Part 2 of the question, as far as the newly constituted National Conventional Arms Control Committee is concerned, all meetings held thus far have been based on prescribed quorum requirements. With respect to the 2008 calendar year, the report that will be tabled in Parliament reflects business conducted in terms of the said Act.
Madam Deputy Speaker, we say in the preamble to legislation regulating the conventional arms trade that our country is a responsible member of the international community and will not trade in conventional arms with states engaged in repression, aggression or terrorism.
Now, the National Conventional Arms Control Committee, under the leadership of Minister Jeff Radebe, stepped up to the plate and did the right thing when they recently refused to authorise the sale of thousands of aviator G- suits to Iran. Will the Minister once again step up to the plate and do the right thing, and give this House the assurance that she will stop the sale of thousands of sniper rifles to Syria and millions of rounds of ammunition to Zimbabwe?
Madam Deputy Speaker, as I have indicated, when we conduct our business as the committee we do so in terms of the Act and its provisions. I do not deviate in any way in my reply from that assurance to the House.
Madam Deputy Speaker, there is a bit of confusion here: The hon Maynier would like to ask a second supplementary question.
Mr Maynier, if you are serious about the second question, can you do that?
Madam Deputy Speaker, I am serious. The National Conventional Arms Control Committee is due, as the Minister says, to appear before the Portfolio Committee on Defence and Military Veterans on Wednesday, 2 September 2009. Will the Minister be prepared to provide members of the portfolio committee with copies of all the minutes of all meetings of the NCACC as well as copies of the minutes of all meetings and supporting documentation of the scrutiny committee which advised the NCACC over the past five years before that meeting?
If the Minister has nothing to hide, she surely must be prepared to provide the documents to the members of the committee. [Applause.]
Madam Deputy Speaker, I am a little surprised. The hon member indicated that he is fully aware of the contents of the Act and its provisions. I do not recall any section of the Act, which I have read copiously, as he has done, that demands the sorts of documents he has referred to. What the committee will get is the annual report, as required in section 23 of the Act. As to other documentation, I think that matter will be dealt with in the process of the meeting, but there is no requirement in the Act for such. Thank you. [Applause.]
Madam Deputy Speaker ... [Interjections.]
Mr Maynier, surely you know that you cannot ask a third supplementary question. You can ask a maximum of two supplementary questions.
Madam Deputy Speaker, the Rules make it quite clear that there will be four supplementary questions to every question, but the Rules do not indicate that any one person is limited to two questions only - the Rules do not state that. And one person can ask all four supplementary questions if there are no other supplementary questions from any other party.
Are there any other further supplementary questions?
Yes, there are.
The hon Maynier would like this question, I am asking for the following one, so that I am not put last on the list again.
Is that a question or a comment?
Madam Deputy Speaker, I was answering your request.
Hon Maynier, I shall very, very reluctantly allow you the third one, which will be the last one.
Madam Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: Why would you reluctantly allow him a third question, and if necessary ... [Interjections.]
Because there has been a practice of allowing two questions and this session is structured so that everybody can ask questions, not just one person ... [Interjections.]
If I may, Madam Deputy Speaker ...
I don't think we are going to have a dialogue, Mr Ellis. [Interjections.]
Madam Deputy Speaker, it's a very important principle, because what happens today will happen in the future. I will write to you and we will sort it out. [Interjections.]
Order, hon Ellis! Do that at another time. Let us not have a dialogue. Hon Maynier? [Interjections.]
Madam Deputy Speaker, the Deputy Minister of International Relations and Co-operation, Mr Ebrahim Ebrahim, recently made a very welcome statement on the situation in Burma, when he said that the government of South Africa was deeply saddened and regretted the decision of the Myanmar authorities to convict Aung San Suu Kyi on charges of subversion.
It appears that this government has made a foreign policy about-turn, and for once we are supporting the democrats and not the dictators. But it was not always so, and in the light of this, would the Minister tell this House whether the National Conventional Arms Control Committee has ever authorised or refused any permit in relation to conventional arms transfers to the military regime in Burma?
Madam Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: I had thought that there was some clarity when it was said that there is a law and that law doesn't say that you have to go into the details of what has been presented before the committee. I thought that the hon member had read the law, and the law just says that a particular report will be presented to Parliament.
Thank you, hon Booi. Can we ask the Minister to be the one to decide on that?
Madam Deputy Speaker, that is a very different question. However, in terms of the information available to me, all details with respect to countries and types of arms purchased will be in the 2008 report submitted to Parliament - all countries and the types of arms provided or sold.
Particulars regarding prosecution of head of Krugersdorp organised crime unit and others on charges related to drug trafficking
13. Rev K R J Meshoe (ACDP) asked the Minister of Police:
(1) Whether (a) the head of the Krugersdorp organised crime unit and (b) two of his subordinates who were arrested in March for charges related to drug trafficking have been successfully prosecuted; if not, why not, in each case; if so, what sentences were imposed on them, in each case; (2) whether the drug lords who were buying drugs from them have also been (a) arrested and (b) prosecuted successfully; if not, why not, in each case; if so, what are the relevant details, in each case? NO839E
Deputy Speaker, the criminal trial involving the head of the Krugersdorp organised crime unit and the other members has not yet been finalised by the court. The matter was postponed to 12 October 2009, in the High Court in Johannesburg. Considering that the matter is now in our courts, we believe that hon members will appreciate the need for caution in discussing such matters. Thank you.
Thank you, hon Minister, for the reply. We heard this afternoon from the Minister of Correctional Services that about 70% of awaiting-trial detainees are young people. Many of them, I'm sure, especially those who are still in detention for violent crimes, have access to illegal habit-forming drugs. It is mainly these young people we want to protect from druglords and crime syndicates.
We believe that severe sentences - while I understand that the matter is before the courts - have to be imposed on druglords and that syndicates have to be smashed, so that our children can grow up in drug-free areas. Will the Minister consider giving the challenge of smashing drug traffickers and druglords to the newly established Hawks, so that this problem can be solved once and for all? Thank you.
Deputy Speaker, in spirit I agree with the hon Rev Meshoe. The syndicates that we are talking about, not only for drug trafficking, but also for other scourges like human trafficking are part of the programme of the broader SAPS. And, as you know, because these are priority crimes, the new unit, the DPCI, or the Hawks, as we refer to them, will be dealing with this as well. It is a broader challenge within the entire Police Service. Thank you.
Deputy Speaker, could the Minister explain to this House why it is that cases against members of SAPS are kept out of the public eye, when transparency in this sort of unutterably distasteful case is called for, with SAPS proving to the citizens of this country that they deal harshly with transgressions of the law on the part of their members?
Is it perhaps that in instances the punishment in relation to an infraction by SAPS members so seldom seems commensurate with the initial action? For example, when two Volksrust officers locked a female into an all-male cell where she was gang-raped, they were told not to do it again for six months, after which it would be expunged from their records. They face no loss of income, no demotion - in fact, nothing at all. Surely, this lack of firm action not only undermines the morale of the good cops, but also discourages people from co-operating with the police.
Deputy Speaker, I find that contradictory. How do you then know that there are cases which involve police if there are no records and if they are kept away from the public? You know, because everybody knows, because SAPS works for the entire nation and each and every case is equal to any other.
The issue of drugs that has been raised here, and which I think we should confine ourselves to, as referred to by the hon Rev Meshoe, is a matter, as I have said, which is being dealt with; but I don't think we should come and mislead the House and say those cases which involve police are kept away from the public eye. It's not true. Thank you.
Deputy Speaker, what measures have SAPS put in place to ensure that men and women of integrity are deployed to the organised crime unit, and what other measures could be implemented to reduce such incidents in the future? I thank you.
Deputy Speaker, as the hon member knows, we launched a new unit, DPCI, which took on board members of the crime unit, amongst other things. Subsequent to that, a thorough process of vetting and security clearance is still being undertaken, because we made the point that we should be thorough as far as that is concerned. Rather delay for the thorough process and outcome thereof, than rush the process. Thank you very much.
Deputy Speaker, I'm sure it's allowed to have a minor deviation from the norm concerning a maiden speech and that I may have a supplementary question today; and I will make my maiden speech at the next available opportunity.
We believe and we want to say that the police are doing very, very good work. We are all indebted to them and we must always support them when they do a good job - all of us. Therefore, we shouldn't take a position where we paint all the police with the same brush. There are a few, however, who are behaving inappropriately in the police, in terms of committing crime.
I want to ask the Minister whether there are any records kept in the department of the police's alleged involvement in drug trafficking, and if the department has the capacity to detect it and, of course, prosecute all those who are involved in inappropriate behaviour in the department?
Deputy Speaker, hon member, not much has changed, since the last time you were the MEC of Safety and Security in the Western Cape. [Laughter.]
The hon member will know that, in terms of statistics, whether you are a member of the police or not, if you are engaged and involved in crime, you are recorded as such - a criminal. Perhaps a special request for just focusing on the police can be put forward, because we may want to talk about this matter to see what we can do. Thank you very much.
Particulars of rewards and training given to patrollers working with SAPS in Gauteng
14. Ms M T Kubayi (ANC) asked the Minister of Police:
(1) Whether patrollers in Gauteng who work with the SA Police Service (SAPS) to help keep communities safe receive any form of stipend or reward; if not, how are they motivated to continue their work with the SAPS; if so, what are the relevant details;
(2) whether these patrollers receive any form of training; if so, (a) what form of training and (b) at what level of National Qualifications Framework (NQF); if not,
(3) whether there are any plans to provide them with training; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?